Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Re:The Cliff- How do you deal with freefall

HI JACKY (I'M USING CAPS TO DISTINGUISH MYSELF- ASCII-WISE)

> Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:27:30 -0000
> From: ligonj@northstate.net
>Subject: Re: "The Cliff" - how do you deal with free fall?
>
>--- In tuning@y..., "Lawrence Ball" <Lawrenceball@p...> wrote:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> Right now, although the mathematical part of my mind (one of my
>favourite
>> bits)
>> is fascinated by the wonderful constructions envisioned, FAQd, and
>> constructively controversialised
>> on the list (and me too, I've designed scales for improvising in up
>to
>> 13-limit
>> so far), an issue I'm also much concerned with right now is the
>process
>> where
>> the numbers and the technology and instrument design/speculation
>stops and
>> the
>> creative or spiritual side comes in.
>
>Lawrence,
>
>Hello! I would say that I also find great resonance with you in
>seeing the full cycle of creation come about. It's a sort of Creative
>Quadernity here: math, sound design, creative direction and the
>mysterious spiritual element!

I'M VERY GLAD THAT YOUR POST, JACKY, IS PART OF A CYCLE OF INTEREST IN THE
PRE-COMPOSITIONAL PROCESS CURRENTLY WORKING OUT. I WOULD NOT CALL MYSELF A
MICROTONALIST (SORRY GUYS AND GUYESSES), IN GENERAL, AS A COMPOSER/MUSICIAN.
MY FOCUS AND CONCERN INCLUDES MICROTONALITY BUT WHAT CONCERNS ME EVEN MORE
IS THE PROCESS OF WORKING AND THE EFFECT THAT THE MUSIC OR SOUND HAS ON THE
TEEMING MICROLAYERS OF ENERGETIC SOUNDS THAT EXIST ON HIGHER LEVELS OF THE
MUSICAL UNIVERSE THAN THE ACOUSTICAL. SO THE CREATIVE AND THE SPIRITUAL ARE
TO ME MORE IMPORTANT STILL.

>
>> QUESTIONS:
>>
>> 1)What is your take on creative work, in particular the process of
>initial
>> ideas/forms leading to your eventual adoption of a direction,
>scale, track
>> or album?
>
>If I answer this in a literal way, I'd say that my musical concepts
>can originate from a number of points:
>
>1. Inspired by the theory behind the particular scale under
>consideration.
>2. Rhythmic concepts. These days my focus has returned to deeper
>exploration of prime poly-meters.
>3. Melody, which seems to naturally emanate from a given tuning
>system.
>4. Harmonies resulting from melodic simultaneities on different
>timbres.
>5. Timbres alone sometimes inspire the direction of a composition. A
>good example of this is a piece I'm working on now, with bowed gong
>harmonics (will have choir singing in spectra scales).
>6. Wild flights of musical fantasy and conceptual creation. I always
>liked Zappa's "conceptual continuity", and like to conceive of
>unifying concepts for entire suites of compositions.
>
>If I answer in a less literal way, I have to say that it is entirely
>mysterious how it all fuses into the moment of musical creation.
>Sometimes I feel varying degrees and proportions of influence over
>the direction of compositions and suites, coming from all of the
>above basic elements, but it is the ultimate process of how it is all
>unified into the final act of music creations, which almost seems to
>be going on outside of the control of my conscious mind. I fancy that
>the facet of our consciousness which drives the cycle of musical
>creation through to its final fulfillment, deals little with the
>rational/organizational side. It's the union of the rational (which
>dutifully performs the "dirty" work in a collaboration toward music),
>and the "non"-rational, which takes blissful flights from the cliffs,
>that makes it all reach the final stages. It's almost as though there
>are complimentary forces at work within ourselves, and the end
>product of the union of the creative poles is - music.

WHAT DISTINGUISHES BEING HUMAN FOR ME IS THE MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE INSIDE US,
A GROUNDLESS ROOT OF ACTIVITY. TO MAKE INROADS INTO THIS CAN BE GREATLY
ENHANCED BY TUNING WORK. I FEEL THAT BEING A TUNER IS NO GUARANTEE OF
PROGRESS THOUGH, PARTICULARLY IF THE MUSIC HONING GETS SIDELINED, ALTHOUGH I
APPRECIATE THAT TIME DOES NEED TO BE TAKEN UP TO INTERNALISE THE
THEORETICAL.

>
>> 2)How important for you are conscious ideas from previous projects,
>themes
>> from previous work or tunings/analyses, and how much do you "jump
>off the
>> cliff" when it comes to launching into creation?
>
>It seems for me, that during each creative phase, something new is
>revealed, which always leads into the next area of tuning theory and
>musical investigation. The first tunings I ever tried were equal
>temperaments (24, 36, 19, 31), which led to just intonations, then
>NJNE..etc, now spectral temperaments, which are totally dependent
>upon the spectra of the instrumental ensembles used in each
>composition.
>
>Truthfully, I must say that allot of time-consuming planning on the
>level of tuning theory, and sound design must happen leading up to
>the moment where I can take flight from the cliff tops. But when I
>get to this point; where all is tuned and timbres in place for music
>creation, I proceed largely without preconceptions. This way I allow
>my music making sensibilities to dictate the direction in a way that
>my rational mind (the organizer of the magic moment) would not allow.
>Whatever it is that "takes over" in the moment - that "inner" ear -
>is what seems to reveal the soul of a tuning for me. In a way it's
>laughable to try to speak about the ineffable experience of how one
>writes a compelling melody, chord progression or complete music
>compositions, but all that it takes before the creation begins
>(theory, sound design, etc), totally takes a back seat when it's time
>to play and compose. One must call on other forces for this!

PERHAPS CREATING REINFORCES THE NOTION AND REALITY OF OUR DEEPER
WELLSPRINGS. MOVES THE OARS MORE SWIFTLY, OUR ECSTATIC AND REJUVENATIVE
ENERGY MUSCLES SO AS TO GALVANISE THE CURRENTS OF ENERGY IN OUR LIFE WITH
MORE FIRE?
PAT AND ALISON I BELIEVE SHARE A CONCERN TO DISTINGUISH THE
CONSCIOUSNESS-CONSCIOUS WORK WE DO FROM THE RATHER DILUTE ATTEMPTS THAT
DOGGED THE 80S AND 90S.
A GOOD TEST OF CREATIVE POTENCY TO ME IS THE NUMBER OF GOOD NEW BRANCHING
POSSIBILITIES THAT ARE OPENED UP.

>
>> (Through playing music (on Turkish) for Sufi meditation groups in
>the mid
>> 70s, it has seemed to me from that point very possible to create
>with much
>> less pre-thought).
>> 3. How large of a part does improvisation play in your creative
>process,
>> and inform of the qualities of a given tuning system?
>
>This is a very interesting question - almost as if you were thinking
>my thoughts! It is hugely important, and it is from this activity
>that the musical nature of scales are revealed for me. For instance,
>in a scenario where I am improvising in a JI scale, I may be
>accompanied by a harmonic drone (similar in sound and purpose to that
>of the tamboura in Indian music), and perhaps a little Bodhran, Tar
>or Riq; and when I place the tuning into this multi-dimensional space
>where the inspiration of rhythmic motion and timbre come into play,
>then it takes on a life and energy all its own. As above, at this
>point there is "less pre-thought" - all of that has happened leading
>up to the moment of the improvisation and underlies it. When the muse
>speaks though, it is in the language of music and emotions.

IMPROVISATION IS THE RESERVOIR OF MY CREATIVE MATERIALS. IMPROVISING FOR ME
INVOKES LARGE SLABS OF UNCONSCIOUS IMPRESSIONS AND MELTS THEM LIKE HONEYED
ICEBERGS INTO REFRESHING MUSICAL FEELINGS.
I HAVE HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF THE ATMOSPHERE OF A TUNING SUGGESTING CERTAIN
PROGRESSIONS OR MELODIC CONTOURS.
WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DO (I WOULD SUBMIT) IS TO REALLY ENGAGE WITH
UPLIFTING ENERGY, THE SENSE OF AWE OF INTERSTELLAR SPACE, TO
STRETCH/RELAX/CONCENTRATE OUR PSYCHIC FOCUS ON LIFE AS WE PREVIOUSLY
APPREHENDED IT.

>
>> "The Creative spirit of the list?"
>
>Absolutely! Our life blood! We do see fresh fruit being born from
>the union of math and music - bliss. I say let's continue to nurture
>the tree!
>
>> "The Aerodynamics Of Intuition?"
>
>The fuel for all discovery.
>
>
>Thanks for this rare post,
>
>Jacky Ligon

YOU AND I SEEM TO HEAR EAR TO EAR.

BEST GREETINGS TO YOU

LAWRENCE
>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "Lawrence Ball" <Lawrenceball@p...> wrote:
> HI JACKY (I'M USING CAPS TO DISTINGUISH MYSELF- ASCII-WISE)

Lawrence,

Caps are nice, but you are "distinguished" enough!

> >Hello! I would say that I also find great resonance with you in
> >seeing the full cycle of creation come about. It's a sort of
Creative
> >Quadernity here: math, sound design, creative direction and the
> >mysterious spiritual element!
>
> I'M VERY GLAD THAT YOUR POST, JACKY, IS PART OF A CYCLE OF INTEREST
IN THE
> PRE-COMPOSITIONAL PROCESS CURRENTLY WORKING OUT. I WOULD NOT CALL
MYSELF A
> MICROTONALIST (SORRY GUYS AND GUYESSES), IN GENERAL, AS A
COMPOSER/MUSICIAN.
> MY FOCUS AND CONCERN INCLUDES MICROTONALITY BUT WHAT CONCERNS ME
EVEN MORE
> IS THE PROCESS OF WORKING AND THE EFFECT THAT THE MUSIC OR SOUND
HAS ON THE
> TEEMING MICROLAYERS OF ENERGETIC SOUNDS THAT EXIST ON HIGHER LEVELS
OF THE
> MUSICAL UNIVERSE THAN THE ACOUSTICAL. SO THE CREATIVE AND THE
SPIRITUAL ARE
> TO ME MORE IMPORTANT STILL.

This is very interesting, and you and Jon Szanto have both made this
statement about not calling yourselves "microtonalists". I realize
that this connotes many things for different folks. For me it
connotes the freedom to use any pitch needed for the musical task at
hand, but I agree that to identify with the Composer/Musician label,
does indeed cover all possibilities, without giving undue weight to
any one dimensional conception. "Microtonalist" is more a kind
of "contextual" word.

I would agree that the creative and spiritual elements form
foundations, from which greatest music emanates. I see two important
tendencies at work in our time:

1. Music can emanate from within the philosophical mindset
of "Western Art Music", where the focus may be completely based upon
complexity of structures, following "traditions" of compositional
methodologies handed down through Western Academia.

2. Music can emanate from what I like to think of as the Ritual
Function, which is an integral part of
personal/communal/tribal/cultural ceremony and ritual. The ideas that
we have today about "Western Art", and the philosophical reasons for
it, would be completely alien to a traditional society or culture
where music was used for ceremony or ritual and celebration. Concepts
of the exalted Western artists and their egos - or even the
philosophical purpose behind Western Art music - become unusable in a
music which serves its purpose through the ritual of a culture.

Certainly, both have produced works of great beauty, but many would
likely agree that the musics with these separate purposes, have a
completely different sound and function for the lives of the people
using them.

> >If I answer in a less literal way, I have to say that it is
entirely
> >mysterious how it all fuses into the moment of musical creation.
> >Sometimes I feel varying degrees and proportions of influence over
> >the direction of compositions and suites, coming from all of the
> >above basic elements, but it is the ultimate process of how it is
all
> >unified into the final act of music creations, which almost seems
to
> >be going on outside of the control of my conscious mind. I fancy
that
> >the facet of our consciousness which drives the cycle of musical
> >creation through to its final fulfillment, deals little with the
> >rational/organizational side. It's the union of the rational
(which
> >dutifully performs the "dirty" work in a collaboration toward
music),
> >and the "non"-rational, which takes blissful flights from the
cliffs,
> >that makes it all reach the final stages. It's almost as though
there
> >are complimentary forces at work within ourselves, and the end
> >product of the union of the creative poles is - music.
>
> WHAT DISTINGUISHES BEING HUMAN FOR ME IS THE MYSTERIOUS PRESENCE
INSIDE US,
> A GROUNDLESS ROOT OF ACTIVITY. TO MAKE INROADS INTO THIS CAN BE
GREATLY
> ENHANCED BY TUNING WORK. I FEEL THAT BEING A TUNER IS NO GUARANTEE
OF
> PROGRESS THOUGH, PARTICULARLY IF THE MUSIC HONING GETS SIDELINED,
ALTHOUGH I
> APPRECIATE THAT TIME DOES NEED TO BE TAKEN UP TO INTERNALISE THE
> THEORETICAL.

Agreed, and I feel this runs through the creative processes of many
gentlefolk here on the list - most recently Neil Haverstick's
creative posts; again showing me where his wonderful language is
coming from.

I do feel that the "theoretical" can indeed temper rare forms of
musical "intuition", where after years of hearing and studying the
sound of tuning systems, one can harness this familiarity, for more
direct creative acts. Once one has "internalized the theoretical",
and knows what it sounds like, then the theory takes its proper
place, in the service of music creation.

> >Truthfully, I must say that allot of time-consuming planning on
the
> >level of tuning theory, and sound design must happen leading up to
> >the moment where I can take flight from the cliff tops. But when I
> >get to this point; where all is tuned and timbres in place for
music
> >creation, I proceed largely without preconceptions. This way I
allow
> >my music making sensibilities to dictate the direction in a way
that
> >my rational mind (the organizer of the magic moment) would not
allow.
> >Whatever it is that "takes over" in the moment - that "inner" ear -

> >is what seems to reveal the soul of a tuning for me. In a way it's
> >laughable to try to speak about the ineffable experience of how
one
> >writes a compelling melody, chord progression or complete music
> >compositions, but all that it takes before the creation begins
> >(theory, sound design, etc), totally takes a back seat when it's
time
> >to play and compose. One must call on other forces for this!
>
> PERHAPS CREATING REINFORCES THE NOTION AND REALITY OF OUR DEEPER
> WELLSPRINGS. MOVES THE OARS MORE SWIFTLY, OUR ECSTATIC AND
REJUVENATIVE
> ENERGY MUSCLES SO AS TO GALVANISE THE CURRENTS OF ENERGY IN OUR
LIFE WITH
> MORE FIRE?

I think so, and as above - knowing what it sounds like through
repeated use and musical experiences, tempers and fine-tunes the
entire organism for more direct and musically meaningful creation.

> PAT AND ALISON I BELIEVE SHARE A CONCERN TO DISTINGUISH THE
> CONSCIOUSNESS-CONSCIOUS WORK WE DO FROM THE RATHER DILUTE ATTEMPTS
THAT
> DOGGED THE 80S AND 90S.

I think this speaks to a general "Return" for many composers, to the
truths of human realities and needs for music to speak to the human
spirit. Perhaps the experimental periods of extreme cognitive
dissonance and incomprehensible rhythmic structure, ran into
the "brick wall" of the undeniable realities of the "Miller Limit" -
which point to the limits of the human cognitive system being able to
comprehend these complexities. I have been very happy to find others
here who wish to take all this to heart in the philosophy of their
creative work. I can make no apologies about the fact that I enjoy
listening to and making simple melodic musics. I think that this
allows microtonal subtleties to be perceived better, and is less
alienating to the listener.

> A GOOD TEST OF CREATIVE POTENCY TO ME IS THE NUMBER OF GOOD NEW
BRANCHING
> POSSIBILITIES THAT ARE OPENED UP.

It is a branching - like a fractal growth of creative energies being
fed from many sources.

>
> >
> >> (Through playing music (on Turkish) for Sufi meditation groups
in
> >the mid
> >> 70s, it has seemed to me from that point very possible to create
> >with much
> >> less pre-thought).
> >> 3. How large of a part does improvisation play in your creative
> >process,
> >> and inform of the qualities of a given tuning system?
> >
> >This is a very interesting question - almost as if you were
thinking
> >my thoughts! It is hugely important, and it is from this activity
> >that the musical nature of scales are revealed for me. For
instance,
> >in a scenario where I am improvising in a JI scale, I may be
> >accompanied by a harmonic drone (similar in sound and purpose to
that
> >of the tamboura in Indian music), and perhaps a little Bodhran,
Tar
> >or Riq; and when I place the tuning into this multi-dimensional
space
> >where the inspiration of rhythmic motion and timbre come into
play,
> >then it takes on a life and energy all its own. As above, at this
> >point there is "less pre-thought" - all of that has happened
leading
> >up to the moment of the improvisation and underlies it. When the
muse
> >speaks though, it is in the language of music and emotions.
>
> IMPROVISATION IS THE RESERVOIR OF MY CREATIVE MATERIALS.
IMPROVISING FOR ME
> INVOKES LARGE SLABS OF UNCONSCIOUS IMPRESSIONS AND MELTS THEM LIKE
HONEYED
> ICEBERGS INTO REFRESHING MUSICAL FEELINGS.
> I HAVE HAD THE EXPERIENCE OF THE ATMOSPHERE OF A TUNING SUGGESTING
CERTAIN
> PROGRESSIONS OR MELODIC CONTOURS.
> WHAT WE ARE ALL TRYING TO DO (I WOULD SUBMIT) IS TO REALLY ENGAGE
WITH
> UPLIFTING ENERGY, THE SENSE OF AWE OF INTERSTELLAR SPACE, TO
> STRETCH/RELAX/CONCENTRATE OUR PSYCHIC FOCUS ON LIFE AS WE PREVIOUSLY
> APPREHENDED IT.

Uplifting energy, as opposed to the alienating tendencies toward
various and stratified forms of "shock value" music, are making a
huge return around the world. That the human organism will tend
toward the timeless, and eventually shun and reject the cheap "shock
value aesthetics" of 20th Century musics, as biologically unsound,
shows the cycle turning back toward the needs of the human spirit in
these restless times. I see microtonality as a facet of this Return
to human truths.

> YOU AND I SEEM TO HEAR EAR TO EAR.

And what a sweet chord we play!

Blessings,

Jacky Ligon

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Jacky Ligon wrote,
>
> <<I can make no apologies about the fact that I enjoy listening to
and
> making simple melodic musics.>>
>
> Nor should you of course if this is what it is what your driven to
do.
>
>
> <<Uplifting energy, as opposed to the alienating tendencies toward
> various and stratified forms of "shock value" music, are making a
huge
> return around the world. That the human organism will tend toward
the
> timeless, and eventually shun and reject the cheap "shock value
> aesthetics" of 20th Century musics, as biologically unsound, shows
the
> cycle turning back toward the needs of the human spirit in these
> restless times. I see microtonality as a facet of this Return to
human
> truths.>>
>
> Yikes, alienating tendencies... stratified forms... shock value
> aesthetics... biologically unsound... return to human truths...,
>
> I dunno man, maybe it's just me, but I gotta say that this is all
> sounding pretty darn spooky from where I stand!
>
> --Dan Stearns

Dan,

Thanks for your comments here, and it wasn't my intention to get
spooky; which prompts me to ask: When was the last time you pulled
out an album by The Sex Pistols, or Two Live Crude, or many other
types of "here today gone tomorrow" "disposable" musics, where
the "shock value aesthetic" was the main substance of the music?

If your answer is "yesterday", then you might not know what I'm
speaking of, but as a person who has experience with actually making
Hard Core Punk Rock music (as an example from my experience), I have
to say that IMHO, there is little permanence, or quality of the music
which can make it endure - long term - repeated listening. I openly
realize that this is heavily laced with personal opinion, but I hope
you can get a glimmer of what I mean.

This has more to do with questions I have constantly at work in my
own heart about what it will take to make any music endure repeated
listening. And the Shock Value aesthetic, I find again and again,
just doesn't do it for me and many folks. Again, this is IMHO though;
but it seems very frequently these days that I find artists with the
same ideas.

I just like to believe that our microtonal efforts are a noble
attempt toward what it takes. And don't we want this for our music?
Don't we wish to create works that will be enjoyed for a little
longer than the popularity of the "hair-cut of the day"? I think the
answer is "yes" for many.

I can say that after being there (in shock value city), I know I want
more than this at the bottom of my efforts.

Never mind the bullocks, it's,

Jacky Ligon

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

--- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> Hi Jacky,
>
> There's a lot of music -- Ives, Fela and PE come right to my mind --
> where the music could definitely be said to come from a "shock value
> aesthetic" that's also (to my mind) music of genius as well as music
> of commitment.

Dan,

Yes - it's all subjective. I love all Ives, and most Fela - don't
know PE.

>
> Personally I wouldn't want to be in the position of saying what is
and
> what ain't disposable music. I can still be moved to strong emotions
> by a Casey Kasem top 40 fossil that hit my ears when I was a kid
> whereas the same exact type of a song from the here and now would
> almost certainly drive me to distraction.
>
> It's a very complex thing -- that particular ('70s in this case)
> sound... that little radio in my room... me and that tune and all
the
> rest of it in the exact context of that time...
>
> And if it's all nothing more than nostalgia, well that's okay too...
> after all nostalgia is an exceptionally strong resonance.

I posted a clarification about this:

/tuning/topicId_20208.html#20220

>
> Anyway, I guess my point would be that it's all pretty darned
> complicated and often hopelessly tethered to an individuals personal
> circumstances and orientation. When people hear my music they're
> probably not thinking of 1970s Musak, however...

Well for me, you do have the enduring quality at work in your music,
which I find to have boundless Uplifting Energy.

For about a ten year period, my listening to, and studying music, was
complicated by a very analytical mode of listening and comprehension.
Then one day I fell in love, and on queue I began to hear music on an
emotional level like I hadn't since I was a child. Today there is a
balance between the two. And as subjective as I know it is to say
this; I have found that certain musics - for me - can be extremely
unsettling to listen to; even having the capability of making me feel
a little physically ill. It is something that my body seems to
reject. Don't know how else to explain it - but I approach any music
with a totally open mind; without preconceptions, and I actively
listen to and play myriad of styles of music.

I realize that is so subjective, but I feel more and more compelled
these days to listen to what my "inner ear" tells me. It's a "body"
thing, and very difficult to explain. It all leads to the questions
and points I address (clarification prompted by your reply) in my
above clarification - that of enduring qualities of music, which I'm
hyper-sensitive about being a very personal and subjective reality
for any individual composer. As one could easily infer from my
clarification on this topic, I would never denigrate anyone else's
perspective, because I know theirs is as important to them as mine is
to me. Strangely though, I find on some levels that there is much
common ground about these things, which I see all the time coming
forward from my interactions with composers around the world. I do
see that others listen to their inner voices and their body for
signals about music which is correct for their unique and individual
purposes.

Sorry for the confusion I may have caused with my too short
statements. I'm at my worst level of communication when I'm trying to
kick out a post within the constraints of a 10 minute tea break on my
job.

Thanks,

Jacky Ligon

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

Hi Jacky,

Isn't the relistenability of music sort of like finding the fountain of
youth? This is one of the toughest questions ever posted to the list. Of
course, as individuals, it's all great fun.

Bach did not think of success after death. An earlier relative, Michael
Bach, wrote anonymously, regularly. And Kraig Grady makes an interesting
point, that there are more people living today than all those who came before
us, indicating little need for longevity. Mozart is said to be relistenable
because his music is said to have layers of meaning, allowing a listener one
layer, and then another, with different points of entry.

As I get older, I find my tastes do change. I like to eat foods that I never
had in youth. Some pieces are more visceral and the "feel" is worth
reemission. Sometimes a piece reminds us of something extra-musical (like a
lover). The fact of being a composer makes one visit other people's music
less often, anecdotally submitted. Wouldn't any composer like their own
original music more than that of most any other? I think so.

Style is a major motivation for the great majorities. But I am swayed
differently. I do like most any style of music, if only out of respect of
the people who created it. There is always at least one great piece of music
in any style. And any single great piece makes a great composer, as a great
novelist needs only one great book.

A Player of music may have different interests than a Dancer. Acoustics are
more sensual to me than electronic. Listening to electronic for me was once
like reading in another language, loaded with cognates. Volume and dynamic
distinguishment is all-important....balance, balance, balance. But that's
because I produce and direct concerts. Most people have great difficulty
with balance. I want every sound playing to be heard. There are pockets of
space that can be filled up with different timbres. They needn't clash or
drown each other out. (Just like those on this list.)

Sorry if I opt out of giving an actual list. I have a fairly large
collection, LPs, CDs, tapes, etc. But playing live is always the strongest
memory in my head. Listening live is the next strongest lasting impression.
I can't listen to Beethoven anymore, it's been pounded into me. No, I don't
listen to Mozart much, either...been through the layers. Still love Bach,
partly because I am hearing more and more in his music, more than people
heard in his own time (because there were no recordings).

Music of other cultures is the most vitalizing aspect of listening for me.
It's like traveling, and I love traveling to different places. Too bad we
have industry pointed in the wrong direction right now. All money makes
money, it seems. But not for me.

Johnny Reinhard

🔗monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

--- In tuning@y..., ligonj@n... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_20159.html#20273

> --- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
>
> > Hi Jacky,
> >
> > There's a lot of music -- Ives, Fela and PE come right to
> > my mind -- where the music could definitely be said to come
> > from a "shock value aesthetic" that's also (to my mind)
> > music of genius as well as music of commitment.
>
> Dan,
>
> Yes - it's all subjective. I love all Ives, and most Fela
> - don't know PE.

Hi Jacky. That's Public Enemy - hands down, the greatest
rap group to ever blast out of a boombox. I'm with you, Dan!

And since you quoted this bit from Dan:

> >
> > Personally I wouldn't want to be in the position of saying
> > what is and what ain't disposable music. I can still be moved
> > to strong emotions by a Casey Kasem top 40 fossil that hit
> > my ears when I was a kid whereas the same exact type of a
> > song from the here and now would almost certainly drive me
> > to distraction.

I feel compelled to reveal to the List what I've been listening
to and had buzzing around my head all week.

Englebert Humperdinck.

And no, I'm not talking about the German composer of about
100 years ago who wrote the opera _Hansel and Gretel_, and
who really owned that name .

I'm talking about the former Arnold Dorsey, AKA Gerry Dorsey,
whose agent convinced him to take that as a stage name, and
who became a monster hit (especially with the ladies) in
the late 1960s.

(BTW, the only Beatles record which rose the charts but didn't
hit number 1 was probably their best single ever: the double
A-side "Strawberry Fields" and "Penny Lane". It gut stuck
in Number 2 because Englebert's very first record, "Release Me",
was firmly lodged in the top spot.)

I've always wondered why I, who love such raucous music as
Public Enemy, early Beatles, Springsteen, The Sex Pistols,
et al, have such a corny romantic streak running thru so
many of my own pop tunes.

Now I finally realize that it's because when I was 6 years
old my mother played Englebert tapes so much that even while
I kept saying I couldn't stand it, some of his better tunes
really did appeal to me, way back then, and wormed their way
deep down into my subconscious.

My favorites are "The Way It Used To Be" and "Les Bicyclettes
de Belsize", and his stripper song, "Bumpety Bump".)

OK, lest I steer too far off-topic, I'll note that the
orchestral arrangements on Englebert's songs are (generally)
gorgeous, and the amateurish orchestral playing is definitely
microtonal.

Now... I'll bet *nobody* was ever expecting this from me!!

-monz
http://www.monz.org
"All roads lead to n^0"

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

🔗David J. Finnamore <daeron@bellsouth.net>

First of all, my humble apologies to everyone for my "off list" post to Jacky coming to the list!
(Thanks again to Dan Stearns for bringing that to my attention.) A silly oversight on my part.
Hope it doesn't stir up a hornet's nest. The word "Unfortunately" at the beginning of the second
to last paragraph could communicate a condescending tone. That whole paragraph could be
misinterpreted as sounding like I'm on some kind of crusade to change everyone into my image.
Please take it only an indication of the strength of my faith in the eventual victory of Truth (but
not an assertion that I think my opinions are Truth). I want to make it clear that I like and
respect everyone on this list, and enjoy the repartee, regardless of differences of opinion,
however severe, about cosmology or philosophy. (Whew!)

Monz wrote:

> > --- In tuning@y..., "D.Stearns" <STEARNS@C...> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Jacky,
> > >
> > > There's a lot of music -- Ives, Fela and PE come right to
> > > my mind -- where the music could definitely be said to come
> > > from a "shock value aesthetic" that's also (to my mind)
> > > music of genius as well as music of commitment.
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > Yes - it's all subjective. I love all Ives, and most Fela
> > - don't know PE.
>
> Hi Jacky. That's Public Enemy - hands down, the greatest
> rap group to ever blast out of a boombox.

Well, let's not confuse the cake with the frosting. An artist like PE might well produce works
that can be taken seriously as art while also infusing them with shock value. It takes a bit of
shock to break through the jaded atmosphere of certain subcultures. But there are many more
self-styled artists whose sole value is shock. And that's certainly no lasting value at all,
merely novelty and hype.

A strange sounding tuning might briefly arrest the listener's ear. But if that's all the tuning is
used for, as a flashing neon light, the composer has done no service to the tuning community nor to
humanity.

> I feel compelled to reveal to the List what I've been listening
> to and had buzzing around my head all week.

> Englebert Humperdinck.

That's comical! I suppose you'll join me in humming BeeGees tunes for the next few days 8-)>

Seriously, while that does relate to what Dan said about 70's pop hits still being moving for him,
it's a separate issue from their having a lasting appeal to humanity generally - say, the way J. S.
Bach's music is now so popular in Japan. I think that the response, "Yeah, but it's meaningful to
me" fails to support the argument that it is a piece of "lasting music" in the same sense.

Only time will tell, of course. But it seems unlikely that future generations will take
Humperdinck's hits as seriously as Beethoven's symphonies. Just as they will not likely place a
photo of Karen Findley's chocolate-smeared body next to Michaelangelo's David. Not unless they
need a good laugh, in the vein of 3rd grade humor.

The classics are not determined arbitrarily. The evidence for the existence of Eternal Principle -
of that which is intrinsically noble - circumstantial though it be, looks overwhelming to me. I
think Johnny Reinhardt was on to something when he mentioned "layers of meaning" in Mozart. That
could be a key concept to this discussion.

--
David J. Finnamore
Nashville, TN, USA
http://personal.bna.bellsouth.net/bna/d/f/dfin/index.html
--

Re:The Cliff- How do you deal with freefall

🔗Lawrence Ball <Lawrenceball@planettree.demon.co.uk>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗D.Stearns <STEARNS@CAPECOD.NET>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗monz <MONZ@JUNO.COM>

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗David Beardsley <xouoxno@virtulink.com>

🔗David J. Finnamore <daeron@bellsouth.net>

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com

🔗ligonj@northstate.net

🔗jpehrson@rcn.com