The Sault Imbroglio

Where to begin? How about with Carl L's post /tuning/topicId_49383.html#49502 which includes, "No-one on this list should be asked to reveal his political or religious affiliations. And when they refuse to answer, they should not be treated as you treated Peter, with the 'why won't you answer if you have nothing to hide' routine."

Carl, I agree 100 percent. I had begun an off-list letter to you to that effect when I kept reading and found voices of indignation in reply. To them I would like to respond.

Jon and Dante, I also agree 100 percent that people with evil views must be stood up to with courage and conviction. Each of us does so in his own way. I post rants on sites such as strike-the-root.com. In many of them, I make an impassioned plea that George W. Bush is an evil man who is leading this nation to ruin faster than had seemed possible a short time ago. I think he is a thug and a murderer, and that his words and deeds should never be answered with silence.

But if George W. Bush happened to be interested in tuning, and he joined the tuning list, I would NOT consider it appropriate to raise the issue of his evilness THERE. You can bet I'd have something to say here on metatuning and elsewhere, of course!! But the tuning list exists for the purpose of discussing tuning. Period.

Now as to Mr. Sault himself. I think it despicable to go running whining to yahoo, trying to get Paul E and others booted off. While I think it was inappropriate to question Mr. Sault's views on hot-button topics on the tuning list, the nature of the posts was mild. And even if they had used stronger language, MUCH stronger, for a newcomer to think he can hijack a list after being on for six days, is absurd. Heck, even if Sault were one of the founding members, he'd be out of line.

And threating lawsuits? Give me a break!!

It seems particularly strange that Mr. Sault has such a thin skin in light of the fact that he can dish out a lot of negative rhetoric himself. Taking the two together, one is not struck with the image of a man who has achieved full emotional maturity.

He is, however, a man who has invested much time in tuning and in making music, who has a lot to say of interest to many tuning members. I think it is unhelpful to continue to make posts which keep the pot stirring on tuning. Say it here!

JdL

Hi John et al.

Now that we're on metatuning, we can discuss freely. I agree that this issue
is complex, (that is the issue of dynamics of email lists), and I for one,
find it fascinating as well.

I look at it this way: suppose a bunch of us who have discussed tuning, as
well as other issues, over the years were sitting in a coffee shop,
discussing away. In comes a newcomer, who introduces himself and joins the
conversation. Suddenly, one of us says "Hey- didn't I see you the other day
in the park on a soapbox ranting about "Jewish conspiracies"? Wouldn't it be
natural for the group to pause a moment and say "Huh?" in disbelief?
Wouldn't it be natural to ask, "Is that true, Mr. Newcomer? Do you actually
believe that stuff?" If then the newcomer responded to this the way Sault
has done with threats and accusations, and refusing to come clear and either
fess up or set the record straight, would we just say "oh well, no matter,
all we want to talk about is tuning.?"

Of course I understand the need to keep discussion lists focussed, and that
is why this group exists as well. It was suggested to Sault that he come
here and discuss the issue, but like all wackos he knows when he will be at
a disadvantage, so he will not.

John, its funny, I thought of the same example that you mention of Bush
joining the tuning list! All I can say is that, personally, I would NOT be
able to just discuss music with him. No way.

Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to admit that on
one level I sympathize with this. there is something to be said for the view
that only love will disarm evil. So maybe poor mr sault had an abusive
childhood and thats why hes a wacko now. maybe all neonazis and crypto
fascists had abusive childhoods and we should be compassionate and
understanding as they murder us. maybe.

Its worth remembering that when fascists take over, the first people they
eliminate are the intellectuals. why? cause they know that the intellectuals
know what they are up to and can call them on it. then intellectuals find
themselves in the unenviable position of either having to cowtow to the
fascist ideology, or die.

so im sorry but if bush or bin laden or peter sault want to talk about
tuning, I cant. Some things are more important than tuning and you cant just
pretend they dont exist cause you dont want to have to deal with it.

Carl, if you really want to go the Jesus route, then by all means strike up
a friendship with mr sault, get to know his pain, show him love and maybe
you can heal him. good luck (sorry for the cynicism).

Or is it possible some people are just evil by choice?

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John A. deLaubenfels [mailto:jdl@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 8:34 AM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] The Sault Imbroglio
>
>
> Where to begin? How about with Carl L's post
> /tuning/topicId_49383.html#49502 which
> includes, "No-one on this list should be asked to reveal his
> political or religious affiliations. And when they refuse to
> answer, they should not be treated as you treated Peter, with the
> 'why won't you answer if you have nothing to hide' routine."
>
> Carl, I agree 100 percent. I had begun an off-list letter to you
> to that effect when I kept reading and found voices of
> indignation in reply. To them I would like to respond.
>
> Jon and Dante, I also agree 100 percent that people with evil
> views must be stood up to with courage and conviction. Each of
> us does so in his own way. I post rants on sites such as
> strike-the-root.com. In many of them, I make an impassioned plea
> that George W. Bush is an evil man who is leading this nation to
> ruin faster than had seemed possible a short time ago. I think
> he is a thug and a murderer, and that his words and deeds should
> never be answered with silence.
>
> But if George W. Bush happened to be interested in tuning, and he
> joined the tuning list, I would NOT consider it appropriate to
> raise the issue of his evilness THERE. You can bet I'd have
> something to say here on metatuning and elsewhere, of course!!
> But the tuning list exists for the purpose of discussing tuning. Period.
>
> Now as to Mr. Sault himself. I think it despicable to go running
> whining to yahoo, trying to get Paul E and others booted off.
> While I think it was inappropriate to question Mr. Sault's views
> on hot-button topics on the tuning list, the nature of the posts
> was mild. And even if they had used stronger language, MUCH
> stronger, for a newcomer to think he can hijack a list after
> being on for six days, is absurd. Heck, even if Sault were one
> of the founding members, he'd be out of line.
>
> And threating lawsuits? Give me a break!!
>
> It seems particularly strange that Mr. Sault has such a thin skin
> in light of the fact that he can dish out a lot of negative
> rhetoric himself. Taking the two together, one is not struck
> with the image of a man who has achieved full emotional maturity.
>
> He is, however, a man who has invested much time in tuning and in
> making music, who has a lot to say of interest to many tuning
> members. I think it is unhelpful to continue to make posts which
> keep the pot stirring on tuning. Say it here!
>
> JdL
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Here's where I stand on the issue:

Mr. Sault's views are vague enough to me to be troubling, yes...even after a
private email with him, which I am not at disgression to divulge. But also,
from what I can tell (so far) he appears NOT to be what people are accusing
him of, (neo-nazi, etc.) though his views seem not to be mainstream. And I
can understand why he would not wish to waste his time defending his views.

I for one, hold the first amendment dear: I don't agree with what you say, but
I will defend to the death your right to say it.....

But let's stick to this: if he is acting in any way threatening or rude to any
member of the list is more to the point. I vote that what counts more than
unproven accustations about him one way or the other (I'm not about to join a
witch hunt) is his conduct on the list. It has been prickly, yes, but not
enough so that I think he has *no* right to be here, much as I utterly
despise the attitude that he would want Paul Erlich kicked off, and he is a 6
day newbie. Can someone assure me that this has not happened? I actually, uh,
haven't seen Paul lately....

Anyway, I suggest this to the group: email him with your personal concerns in
private.

If you don't want to discuss tuning with him, ignore him. Otherwise, you are
enabling him to hold this group hostage. If enough people do this, he will
give up and go away. This is the most powerful way to do behavioral
modification. If he becomes obnoxious, then the groups has a case against him
with Yahoo. agreed?

Best,
Aaron.

On Wednesday 10 December 2003 09:06 am, Dante Rosati wrote:
> Hi John et al.
>
> Now that we're on metatuning, we can discuss freely. I agree that this
> issue is complex, (that is the issue of dynamics of email lists), and I for
> one, find it fascinating as well.
>
> I look at it this way: suppose a bunch of us who have discussed tuning, as
> well as other issues, over the years were sitting in a coffee shop,
> discussing away. In comes a newcomer, who introduces himself and joins the
> conversation. Suddenly, one of us says "Hey- didn't I see you the other day
> in the park on a soapbox ranting about "Jewish conspiracies"? Wouldn't it
> be natural for the group to pause a moment and say "Huh?" in disbelief?
> Wouldn't it be natural to ask, "Is that true, Mr. Newcomer? Do you actually
> believe that stuff?" If then the newcomer responded to this the way Sault
> has done with threats and accusations, and refusing to come clear and
> either fess up or set the record straight, would we just say "oh well, no
> matter, all we want to talk about is tuning.?"
>
> Of course I understand the need to keep discussion lists focussed, and that
> is why this group exists as well. It was suggested to Sault that he come
> here and discuss the issue, but like all wackos he knows when he will be at
> a disadvantage, so he will not.
>
> John, its funny, I thought of the same example that you mention of Bush
> joining the tuning list! All I can say is that, personally, I would NOT be
> able to just discuss music with him. No way.
>
> Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to admit that
> on one level I sympathize with this. there is something to be said for the
> view that only love will disarm evil. So maybe poor mr sault had an abusive
> childhood and thats why hes a wacko now. maybe all neonazis and crypto
> fascists had abusive childhoods and we should be compassionate and
> understanding as they murder us. maybe.
>
> Its worth remembering that when fascists take over, the first people they
> eliminate are the intellectuals. why? cause they know that the
> intellectuals know what they are up to and can call them on it. then
> intellectuals find themselves in the unenviable position of either having
> to cowtow to the fascist ideology, or die.
>
> so im sorry but if bush or bin laden or peter sault want to talk about
> tuning, I cant. Some things are more important than tuning and you cant
> just pretend they dont exist cause you dont want to have to deal with it.
>
> Carl, if you really want to go the Jesus route, then by all means strike up
> a friendship with mr sault, get to know his pain, show him love and maybe
> you can heal him. good luck (sorry for the cynicism).
>
> Or is it possible some people are just evil by choice?
>
> Dante
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John A. deLaubenfels [mailto:jdl@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 8:34 AM
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [metatuning] The Sault Imbroglio
> >
> >
> > Where to begin? How about with Carl L's post
> > /tuning/topicId_49383.html#49502 which
> > includes, "No-one on this list should be asked to reveal his
> > political or religious affiliations. And when they refuse to
> > answer, they should not be treated as you treated Peter, with the
> > 'why won't you answer if you have nothing to hide' routine."
> >
> > Carl, I agree 100 percent. I had begun an off-list letter to you
> > to that effect when I kept reading and found voices of
> > indignation in reply. To them I would like to respond.
> >
> > Jon and Dante, I also agree 100 percent that people with evil
> > views must be stood up to with courage and conviction. Each of
> > us does so in his own way. I post rants on sites such as
> > strike-the-root.com. In many of them, I make an impassioned plea
> > that George W. Bush is an evil man who is leading this nation to
> > ruin faster than had seemed possible a short time ago. I think
> > he is a thug and a murderer, and that his words and deeds should
> > never be answered with silence.
> >
> > But if George W. Bush happened to be interested in tuning, and he
> > joined the tuning list, I would NOT consider it appropriate to
> > raise the issue of his evilness THERE. You can bet I'd have
> > something to say here on metatuning and elsewhere, of course!!
> > But the tuning list exists for the purpose of discussing tuning. Period.
> >
> > Now as to Mr. Sault himself. I think it despicable to go running
> > whining to yahoo, trying to get Paul E and others booted off.
> > While I think it was inappropriate to question Mr. Sault's views
> > on hot-button topics on the tuning list, the nature of the posts
> > was mild. And even if they had used stronger language, MUCH
> > stronger, for a newcomer to think he can hijack a list after
> > being on for six days, is absurd. Heck, even if Sault were one
> > of the founding members, he'd be out of line.
> >
> > And threating lawsuits? Give me a break!!
> >
> > It seems particularly strange that Mr. Sault has such a thin skin
> > in light of the fact that he can dish out a lot of negative
> > rhetoric himself. Taking the two together, one is not struck
> > with the image of a man who has achieved full emotional maturity.
> >
> > He is, however, a man who has invested much time in tuning and in
> > making music, who has a lot to say of interest to many tuning
> > members. I think it is unhelpful to continue to make posts which
> > keep the pot stirring on tuning. Say it here!
> >
> > JdL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

I kind of missed how this whole thing started. I do find it distasteful
that we keep using his name is Sault an Antisemite until it is really
established. It seems if true, it is not limited to just this group but more
far reaching. Of course he could have removed it an did not do so. It does get
him attentions doesn't it
It seems weird that some one would hunts this down and i hope one could be
on the tuning list with out a police background check on oneself.
One the other hand his use of excessive force in contacting Yahoo strikes me
as someone who has been 'trained" to react in this way when cornered.
Republicians use these type of attacks on cue daily to cover up their abuses.
Good art seems to have little to do with the overall character,
unfortunately. Visiting Erins stepmothers family who are jewish , I found Degas
on the walls, who we know was not positive about the Jews. The works of art has
a life of their own

Dante Rosati wrote:

> Hi John et al.
>
> Now that we're on metatuning, we can discuss freely. I agree that this issue
> is complex, (that is the issue of dynamics of email lists), and I for one,
> find it fascinating as well.
>
> I look at it this way: suppose a bunch of us who have discussed tuning, as
> well as other issues, over the years were sitting in a coffee shop,
> discussing away. In comes a newcomer, who introduces himself and joins the
> conversation. Suddenly, one of us says "Hey- didn't I see you the other day
> in the park on a soapbox ranting about "Jewish conspiracies"? Wouldn't it be
> natural for the group to pause a moment and say "Huh?" in disbelief?
> Wouldn't it be natural to ask, "Is that true, Mr. Newcomer? Do you actually
> believe that stuff?" If then the newcomer responded to this the way Sault
> has done with threats and accusations, and refusing to come clear and either
> fess up or set the record straight, would we just say "oh well, no matter,
> all we want to talk about is tuning.?"
>
> Of course I understand the need to keep discussion lists focussed, and that
> is why this group exists as well. It was suggested to Sault that he come
> here and discuss the issue, but like all wackos he knows when he will be at
> a disadvantage, so he will not.
>
> John, its funny, I thought of the same example that you mention of Bush
> joining the tuning list! All I can say is that, personally, I would NOT be
> able to just discuss music with him. No way.
>
> Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to admit that on
> one level I sympathize with this. there is something to be said for the view
> that only love will disarm evil. So maybe poor mr sault had an abusive
> childhood and thats why hes a wacko now. maybe all neonazis and crypto
> fascists had abusive childhoods and we should be compassionate and
> understanding as they murder us. maybe.
>
> Its worth remembering that when fascists take over, the first people they
> eliminate are the intellectuals. why? cause they know that the intellectuals
> know what they are up to and can call them on it. then intellectuals find
> themselves in the unenviable position of either having to cowtow to the
> fascist ideology, or die.
>
> so im sorry but if bush or bin laden or peter sault want to talk about
> tuning, I cant. Some things are more important than tuning and you cant just
> pretend they dont exist cause you dont want to have to deal with it.
>
> Carl, if you really want to go the Jesus route, then by all means strike up
> a friendship with mr sault, get to know his pain, show him love and maybe
> you can heal him. good luck (sorry for the cynicism).
>
> Or is it possible some people are just evil by choice?
>
> Dante
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John A. deLaubenfels [mailto:jdl@...]
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 8:34 AM
> > To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [metatuning] The Sault Imbroglio
> >
> >
> > Where to begin? How about with Carl L's post
> > /tuning/topicId_49383.html#49502 which
> > includes, "No-one on this list should be asked to reveal his
> > political or religious affiliations. And when they refuse to
> > answer, they should not be treated as you treated Peter, with the
> > 'why won't you answer if you have nothing to hide' routine."
> >
> > Carl, I agree 100 percent. I had begun an off-list letter to you
> > to that effect when I kept reading and found voices of
> > indignation in reply. To them I would like to respond.
> >
> > Jon and Dante, I also agree 100 percent that people with evil
> > views must be stood up to with courage and conviction. Each of
> > us does so in his own way. I post rants on sites such as
> > strike-the-root.com. In many of them, I make an impassioned plea
> > that George W. Bush is an evil man who is leading this nation to
> > ruin faster than had seemed possible a short time ago. I think
> > he is a thug and a murderer, and that his words and deeds should
> > never be answered with silence.
> >
> > But if George W. Bush happened to be interested in tuning, and he
> > joined the tuning list, I would NOT consider it appropriate to
> > raise the issue of his evilness THERE. You can bet I'd have
> > something to say here on metatuning and elsewhere, of course!!
> > But the tuning list exists for the purpose of discussing tuning. Period.
> >
> > Now as to Mr. Sault himself. I think it despicable to go running
> > whining to yahoo, trying to get Paul E and others booted off.
> > While I think it was inappropriate to question Mr. Sault's views
> > on hot-button topics on the tuning list, the nature of the posts
> > was mild. And even if they had used stronger language, MUCH
> > stronger, for a newcomer to think he can hijack a list after
> > being on for six days, is absurd. Heck, even if Sault were one
> > of the founding members, he'd be out of line.
> >
> > And threating lawsuits? Give me a break!!
> >
> > It seems particularly strange that Mr. Sault has such a thin skin
> > in light of the fact that he can dish out a lot of negative
> > rhetoric himself. Taking the two together, one is not struck
> > with the image of a man who has achieved full emotional maturity.
> >
> > He is, however, a man who has invested much time in tuning and in
> > making music, who has a lot to say of interest to many tuning
> > members. I think it is unhelpful to continue to make posts which
> > keep the pot stirring on tuning. Say it here!
> >
> > JdL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

I agree with what you in your post. except this sentence for if this were a
criterion 70% of the poster would have to be removed:)

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

> If he becomes obnoxious, then the groups has a case against him
> with Yahoo. agreed?
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

John,

My part in all of this was completely separate from the socio-political agendas that may or may not be attributable to Mr. Sault in his non-tuning life. I spoke up to him regarding comments about world musics and tunings, as did Paul E., and it is the manner and tone of his reponse, along with his implied (and most likely effected) actions against us that caused me to speak to the group in general.

In principle, I believe that one shouldn't have an expectation that their life is on display when they join a public forum. But even so, if the discussions in some way broach that, then what *is* at issue is how the community reacts, how the individual responds, and how the health of the community at large is affected.

As I've always felt, these are the times when an intelligent, sensitive, experienced, and pro-active moderator is worth his weight in lattices. I've been on lists where the amount of flame events has been reduced to virtually nil, without any impact whatsoever on a free discussion of issues, or without disturbing the open transaction of opinions. It is a wonderful thing to see in action, and an awful lot of it stems from the simple grace of respect.

Cheers,
Jon

[Dante:]
>Now that we're on metatuning, we can discuss freely. I agree that this issue is complex, (that is the issue of dynamics of email lists), and I for one, find it fascinating as well.

>I look at it this way: suppose a bunch of us who have discussed tuning, as well as other issues, over the years were sitting in a coffee shop, discussing away. In comes a newcomer, who introduces himself and joins the conversation. Suddenly, one of us says "Hey- didn't I see you the other day in the park on a soapbox ranting about "Jewish conspiracies"? Wouldn't it be natural for the group to pause a moment and say "Huh?" in disbelief? Wouldn't it be natural to ask, "Is that true, Mr. Newcomer? Do you actually believe that stuff?" If then the newcomer responded to this the way Sault has done with threats and accusations, and refusing to come clear and either fess up or set the record straight, would we just say "oh well, no matter, all we want to talk about is tuning.?"

If half the people at the table want to talk about tuning, and the other half want to challenge the newcomer on politics, why not take the challenge to another table?

>Of course I understand the need to keep discussion lists focussed, and that is why this group exists as well. It was suggested to Sault that he come here and discuss the issue, but like all wackos he knows when he will be at a disadvantage, so he will not.

Or perhaps he will come here; we shall see.

>John, its funny, I thought of the same example that you mention of Bush joining the tuning list! All I can say is that, personally, I would NOT be able to just discuss music with him. No way.

I'm not sure I could discuss tuning with Bush either!! Of course, it's a laugh even to imagine the guy comprehending the subject, but I digress. ;-> In any case it's certainly one's right to refrain from interaction with anyone.

>Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to admit that on one level I sympathize with this. there is something to be said for the view that only love will disarm evil. So maybe poor mr sault had an abusive childhood and thats why hes a wacko now. maybe all neonazis and crypto fascists had abusive childhoods and we should be compassionate and understanding as they murder us. maybe.

Of course reasons are not excuses; we each must be held responsible for our actions today, whatever challenges we may have faced in the past. Jesus was not adverse to speaking against evil; he only said not to fall into the trap of hatred.

>Its worth remembering that when fascists take over, the first people they eliminate are the intellectuals. why? cause they know that the intellectuals know what they are up to and can call them on it. then intellectuals find themselves in the unenviable position of either having to cowtow to the fascist ideology, or die.

To be sure. I won't deny that I feel frightened to live in the U.S.A. today. Who will be the next "enemy combattant" to be spirited away solely on the say-so of Bush's thugs?

>so im sorry but if bush or bin laden or peter sault want to talk about tuning, I cant. Some things are more important than tuning and you cant just pretend they dont exist cause you dont want to have to deal with it.

No, I can't. But still I believe there should be a forum for taking about tuning, where politics is excluded.

>Carl, if you really want to go the Jesus route, then by all means strike up a friendship with mr sault, get to know his pain, show him love and maybe you can heal him. good luck (sorry for the cynicism).

>Or is it possible some people are just evil by choice?

In that regard, we can control only ourselves. ;->

JdL

i a post to the main tuning list which i've since deleted,
i said that "i agree with everything Sault said in his
response to Dr Countess" at this webpage:

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters/wakefield_sault.htm

i really should have quoted what i was agreeing with,
so that there would be no confusion as to exactly what
i'm saying. here it is:

>> In my opinion for anyone to take this stuff
>> [the Old Testament] literally, let alone to base
>> their lives upon it, is a sign of grotesque
>> mental weakness and aberration. Not only do I
>> personally not need any laws, be their origin
>> divine or human, to behave in a decent manner
>> towards all living beings but these laws are
>> akin to gun control - they are obeyed only by
>> the intrinsically decent person anyway. And my
>> observations of both historical and contemporary
>> events lead me to conclude that the followers of
>> this trash are the most maniacal, bloodthirsty
>> lot one could ever hope not to meet, George W. Bush
>> being the perfect example of a man whose extreme
>> delusional behaviour based upon this material has
>> led to the deaths of at least tens of thousands
>> of innocent people - people who would still be
>> alive and well under the 'evil' Saddam Hussein's rule.

*that* is specifically what i agree with.

honestly, i didn't even read all the stuff about the
Holocaust or the Old-Testament-as-forgery.

i have nothing else to say in this matter.
any further on-list communication with Sault
will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
he wants to become a member of this list and
join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.

-monz

> i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> any further on-list communication with Sault
> will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> he wants to become a member of this list and
> join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.

So in other words, as long as he and his goose-stepping friends dont come to
>your< house in the middle of the night, you're happy to chat with him?

Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?

http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm

Resentment v Hatred

"I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -

it is a natural response to a false accusation.

I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to socialize with
them,

for the simple reason that they are deliberately obnoxious -

they cultivate their obnoxiousness so as to provoke dislike so they can
maintain

their complaints of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
those that possess such a thing

and who are unaware they themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."

Peter Wakefield Sault
27 April 2003

this pretty much says it all doesn't it.
there is alot of explainin' that needs to be done.

i don't feel we are really doing such individuals much good by letting them
think this type of verbage is acceptable.

but better to have them in the open instead of planning behind our backs?

Dante Rosati wrote:

> > i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> > any further on-list communication with Sault
> > will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> > he wants to become a member of this list and
> > join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.
>
> So in other words, as long as he and his goose-stepping friends dont come to
> >your< house in the middle of the night, you're happy to chat with him?
>
> Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
>
> http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
>
> Resentment v Hatred
>
> "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
>
> it is a natural response to a false accusation.
>
> I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to socialize with
> them,
>
> for the simple reason that they are deliberately obnoxious -
>
> they cultivate their obnoxiousness so as to provoke dislike so they can
> maintain
>
> their complaints of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> those that possess such a thing
>
> and who are unaware they themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."
>
> Peter Wakefield Sault
> 27 April 2003
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Hi Joe!
I have always felt that ethics and religion are two different things and
really shouldn't be confused. iHow many kids go into confessionals and make
up sins in order to justify themselves being there?

Rober Graves and Raphael Patai wrote a book called " The Hebrew Myths'
which shows the origin of Genesis in a variety of Sources including
Babalonian and Sumerian. But to decribe the old testement as forgery is
quite extreme in that The Jews had a prehistory and it was probably from
there. I am sure that not a single rabbi would be surprised by these
connection as they are pretty well known. In discussions i have actually
fgound them more honest than their Chrisian counterparts. where the term
forgery is exactly what we have

Interesting on the Feldman list there was mention of Palais de Mari
which turns out was in Syria and they spoke some form of prehebrew language.
Feldman suposedly saw a picture inthe Louve and i imagine he might have
sense a look into his ancient past.

monz wrote:

> i a post to the main tuning list which i've since deleted,
> i said that "i agree with everything Sault said in his
> response to Dr Countess" at this webpage:
>
> http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/Dissenters/wakefield_sault.htm
>
> i really should have quoted what i was agreeing with,
> so that there would be no confusion as to exactly what
> i'm saying. here it is:
>
> >> In my opinion for anyone to take this stuff
> >> [the Old Testament] literally, let alone to base
> >> their lives upon it, is a sign of grotesque
> >> mental weakness and aberration. Not only do I
> >> personally not need any laws, be their origin
> >> divine or human, to behave in a decent manner
> >> towards all living beings but these laws are
> >> akin to gun control - they are obeyed only by
> >> the intrinsically decent person anyway. And my
> >> observations of both historical and contemporary
> >> events lead me to conclude that the followers of
> >> this trash are the most maniacal, bloodthirsty
> >> lot one could ever hope not to meet, George W. Bush
> >> being the perfect example of a man whose extreme
> >> delusional behaviour based upon this material has
> >> led to the deaths of at least tens of thousands
> >> of innocent people - people who would still be
> >> alive and well under the 'evil' Saddam Hussein's rule.
>
>
> *that* is specifically what i agree with.
>
> honestly, i didn't even read all the stuff about the
> Holocaust or the Old-Testament-as-forgery.
>
> i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> any further on-list communication with Sault
> will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> he wants to become a member of this list and
> join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.
>
> -monz
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> I personally don't know what you all even mean
> by "Antisemite", so for me the whole thing could be very
> upsetting and confusing.

Well, no one wants you to become upset or confused. You should probably just stay inside and work on your projects, and none of the big issues of the world will have to invade your space. You can go along through life, listening to tunings, and not have to get upset about anything. You won't have to worry about how some of your friends are treated, etc. It will all be very easy.

Jon

Yuk. Now we know.....

Like I said, let's ignore him. I don't like characters like this ruining our
discussions.

I knew he was bad seed by his attitude. Too bad-he seems intelligent and
articulate enough. What a waste of a mind, to be poisoned by hateful garbage.

I have to say that in his private email to me, he expressed that the Holcaust
was a terrible thing, so I didn't think he was outright anti-semitic. He
might even still say he's not, but a spade's a spade....

-Aaron.

On Wednesday 10 December 2003 01:55 pm, Dante Rosati wrote:
> > i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> > any further on-list communication with Sault
> > will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> > he wants to become a member of this list and
> > join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.
>
> So in other words, as long as he and his goose-stepping friends dont come
> to
>
> >your< house in the middle of the night, you're happy to chat with him?
>
> Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
>
> http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
>
>
> Resentment v Hatred
>
>
> "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
>
> it is a natural response to a false accusation.
>
>
> I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to socialize with
> them,
>
> for the simple reason that they are deliberately obnoxious -
>
> they cultivate their obnoxiousness so as to provoke dislike so they can
> maintain
>
> their complaints of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> those that possess such a thing
>
> and who are unaware they themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."
>
>
> Peter Wakefield Sault
> 27 April 2003
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

[Jon:]
>As I've always felt, these are the times when an intelligent, sensitive, experienced, and pro-active moderator is worth his weight in lattices. I've been on lists where the amount of flame events has been reduced to virtually nil, without any impact whatsoever on a free discussion of issues, or without disturbing the open transaction of opinions. It is a wonderful thing to see in action, and an awful lot of it stems from the simple grace of respect.

Agreed, and I hope your efforts to contact Mark Nowitzky bear fruit! I am not adverse to kicking someone off the list who does not behave courteously.

JdL

P.S. How much does a lattice weigh, anyway? ;->

> I look at it this way: suppose a bunch of us who have discussed
> tuning, as well as other issues, over the years were sitting in
> a coffee shop, discussing away. In comes a newcomer, who
> introduces himself and joins the conversation. Suddenly, one of
> us says "Hey- didn't I see you the other day in the park on a
> soapbox ranting about "Jewish conspiracies"? Wouldn't it be
> natural for the group to pause a moment and say "Huh?" in
> disbelief? Wouldn't it be natural to ask, "Is that true, Mr.
> Newcomer? Do you actually believe that stuff?" If then the
> newcomer responded to this the way Sault has done with threats
> and accusations, and refusing to come clear and either fess up
> or set the record straight, would we just say "oh well, no
> matter, all we want to talk about is tuning.?"

There's a lot in this paragraph.

We're not in a cafe, we're on this electric medium, which
has unique characteristics.

It might take a lot of verbiage for the newcomer to "come
clean or fess up". What exactly is he fessing up to?
For a guy like me who doesn't have a clue what an "Antisemite"
is, it might be very confusing and upsetting.

Most importantly, if he does fess up, what do we do? It's
the 'legislate morality' issue. Why, Dante, do you reckon
murder is illegal -- why do you, Dante Rosati, not have the
Right to murder? Because it is wrong? What if I'm a Satanist,
who believes murder is good? Who are you to claim supremacy
over Satanism? Murder is illegal because it takes away the
victim's Right to live, a right which is more fundamental.
What is 'fundamental' can be defined by applying the notions
of the status quo (derived ultimately from our nature as
animals -- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- and
otherwise by what's currently happening) and mutual exclusion
(I cannot live and you murder) to determine the maximal Right-
set for all individuals in a society. This is generally an
intractable mathematical problem, and it isn't always clear-
cut. Heroin use, for example, isn't a *completely* victimless
crime (although criminal law is clearly inappropriate). That's
why there's a protocol (the judicial system) to decide it on
a per-case basis.

When this isn't effective, power can be invoked. There's the
power of majority (democracy). The power of money (capitalism).
One of these is usually the next-best resort.

Sometimes external moral judgements cannot be avoided, and the
ability to make them when necessary and only when necessary is
the mark of a great leader.

When external moral judgements are your first and only resort,
you have fascism, by definition.

In this case, I do not believe the tuning list requires a
judgement about whether racism is wrong in order to function.

> John, its funny, I thought of the same example that you mention
> of Bush joining the tuning list! All I can say is that,
> personally, I would NOT be able to just discuss music with him.
> No way.

No? I have to admit I personally have trouble discussing anything
with someone I know feels overwhelming hate for jews. But this is
probably a weakness on my part.

> Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to
> admit that on one level I sympathize with this. there is
> something to be said for the view that only love will disarm
> evil.

No, only ignorance will disarm evil. Reality is determined by
what we spend our time on. This is why politics is so dangerous,
and generally not considered polite conversation. Ask anyone in
Washington, and they will tell you they are there to 'change
Washington'! War, it is said, is fought for justice on both
sides.

> Its worth remembering that when fascists take over, the first
> people they eliminate are the intellectuals. why? cause they
> know that the intellectuals know what they are up to and can
> call them on it.

You see this as a conscious action on the part of an enemy.

Rather, fascism can only arise through a lack of intellectualism.

What fascists do consciously is not eliminate all intellectuals,
but only those who disagree with them. If all 'antisemites'
were forbidden from playing chess, for example, one of the
greatest players in history would never have shared his gift
with the world.

Anthropomorphizing the 'enemy' (ie, "Antisemite") is the first
step toward fascism.

Paranoia is the final step. Antisemitism is everywhere, waiting
to infect our kids. Or don't you see that the actual subject
matter is immaterial to the dangers of paranoia?

-Carl

J,

[JdL]
> P.S. How much does a lattice weigh, anyway? ;->

I'm not sure - I've heard about them, but I refuse to look! :)

Cheers,
Jon

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> In this case, I do not believe the tuning list requires a
> judgement about whether racism is wrong in order to function.

I agree. But where we may differ is in how we value the importance of
the functioning of the tuning list (or the tuning&porn list,
nowadays) as compared with the importance of fostering tolerance
among humanity. I am simply reduced to tears by Aaron J., Jon, and
Dante's sensitivity on this issue. I honestly did not expect anything
of the sort.

> > Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to
> > admit that on one level I sympathize with this. there is
> > something to be said for the view that only love will disarm
> > evil.
>
> No, only ignorance will disarm evil.

Reason and truth have no hope, then?

> > Its worth remembering that when fascists take over, the first
> > people they eliminate are the intellectuals. why? cause they
> > know that the intellectuals know what they are up to and can
> > call them on it.
>
> You see this as a conscious action on the part of an enemy.
>
> Rather, fascism can only arise through a lack of intellectualism.

I can't make heads or tails of your stance here, Carl.

> What fascists do consciously is not eliminate all intellectuals,
> but only those who disagree with them. If all 'antisemites'
> were forbidden from playing chess, for example, one of the
> greatest players in history would never have shared his gift
> with the world.

Hmm . . . I'm certainly not proposing 'eliminating' anyone in any
sense . . . especially not from games like chess or the tuning list.

> Anthropomorphizing the 'enemy' (ie, "Antisemite") is the first
> step toward fascism.

I don't understand this. "Anthropomorphizing" means to take something
that's not human and treat it as if it's human. How does that apply
here? We're clearly dealing with a real human being here!
(biologically, at least)

Aren't they measured in Mclarens?

Jon Szanto wrote:

> J,
>
> [JdL]
> > P.S. How much does a lattice weigh, anyway? ;->
>
> I'm not sure - I've heard about them, but I refuse to look! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Kraig,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Aren't they measured in Mclarens?

To use an age-old acronym (if something can be age-old in internet time), ROFLMAO!!

Cheers,
Jon (good seeing you yesterday!)

The fact that the same person who uses such language also exhibited the kind
of behavior he did (trying to get people "deleted"!) is NO coincidence, and
is the perfect example of why we cannot let this stuff go. One day its just
words, the next...well you know history. Im just shocked that a tuning
theorist from the English countryside could exhibit such aberrations- thats
the last place I would expect to find it!

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aaron K. Johnson [mailto:akjmicro@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 3:08 PM
> To: metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [metatuning] The Sault Imbroglio -- the Truth is out....
>
>
>
> Yuk. Now we know.....
>
> Like I said, let's ignore him. I don't like characters like this
> ruining our
> discussions.
>
> I knew he was bad seed by his attitude. Too bad-he seems intelligent and
> articulate enough. What a waste of a mind, to be poisoned by
> hateful garbage.
>
> I have to say that in his private email to me, he expressed that
> the Holcaust
> was a terrible thing, so I didn't think he was outright anti-semitic. He
> might even still say he's not, but a spade's a spade....
>
> -Aaron.
>
>
> On Wednesday 10 December 2003 01:55 pm, Dante Rosati wrote:
> > > i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> > > any further on-list communication with Sault
> > > will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> > > he wants to become a member of this list and
> > > join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.
> >
> > So in other words, as long as he and his goose-stepping friends
> dont come
> > to
> >
> > >your< house in the middle of the night, you're happy to chat with him?
> >
> > Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
> >
> > http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
> >
> >
> > Resentment v Hatred
> >
> >
> > "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
> >
> > it is a natural response to a false accusation.
> >
> >
> > I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to socialize with
> > them,
> >
> > for the simple reason that they are deliberately obnoxious -
> >
> > they cultivate their obnoxiousness so as to provoke dislike so they can
> > maintain
> >
> > their complaints of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> > those that possess such a thing
> >
> > and who are unaware they themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."
> >
> >
> > Peter Wakefield Sault
> > 27 April 2003
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Meta Tuning meta-info:
> >
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
> >
> > To post to the list, send to
> > metatuning@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > You don't have to be a member to post.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> --
> OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
> for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Why? they weren't handing out many asylum cases before the WWII were they?
except if they were really really useful to them. after WWII they sent them
into a hostile Desert wasteland.

Dante Rosati wrote:

> Im just shocked that a tuning
> theorist from the English countryside could exhibit such aberrations- thats
> the last place I would expect to find it!
>
> Dante
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

> > > Carl has espoused Jesus' "resist not evil" view, and I have to
> > > admit that on one level I sympathize with this. there is
> > > something to be said for the view that only love will disarm
> > > evil.
> >
> > No, only ignorance will disarm evil.
>
> Reason and truth have no hope, then?

They are the cornerstones of my cold-hearted argument!
:)

Ignorance was not a very good word here. I was going for the
root "ignore". Anyway, I've said enough.

> > Rather, fascism can only arise through a lack of
> > intellectualism.
>
> I can't make heads or tails of your stance here, Carl.

Well, if people are thinking, they presumably won't fall for
fascism!

> > What fascists do consciously is not eliminate all
> > intellectuals, but only those who disagree with them. If
> > all 'antisemites' were forbidden from playing chess, for
> > example, one of the greatest players in history would never
> > have shared his gift with the world.
>
> Hmm . . . I'm certainly not proposing 'eliminating' anyone in
> any sense . . . especially not from games like chess or the
> tuning list.

BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even
be Jewish himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio,
streamed over the internet, were my first exposure to
antisemitism. His book, "Bobby Fisher Teaches Chess" was my
first exposure to academic chess. He is arguably the 2nd
greatest player in History...

3-year-peak Sonas-rated players since 1851
(www.chessmetrics.com)
--------------------------------------------------------
1. Capablanca, Jose.....2903 31-Dec-1921 to 31-Dec-1923
2. Fischer, Robert......2902 31-Dec-1971 to 31-Dec-1973
3. Lasker, Emanuel......2877 31-Dec-1917 to 31-Dec-1919
4. Kasparov, Garry......2873 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
5. Anand, Viswanathan...2824 31-Dec-1996 to 31-Dec-1998
6. Botvinnik, Mikhail...2824 31-Dec-1948 to 31-Dec-1950
7. Steinitz, Wilhelm....2824 31-Dec-1886 to 31-Dec-1888
8. Alekhine, Alexander..2822 31-Dec-1930 to 31-Dec-1932
9. Kramnik, Vladimir....2813 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
//

> > Anthropomorphizing the 'enemy' (ie, "Antisemite") is the
> > first step toward fascism.
>
> I don't understand this. "Anthropomorphizing" means to take
> something that's not human and treat it as if it's human.
> How does that apply here? We're clearly dealing with a real
> human being here! (biologically, at least)

I'm no longer talking about Mr. Sault here, rather about the
prototypical antisemite. Such a moniker turns ideas into
people. WASP is similar. Am I a WASP? No, I am Carl Lumma.
Aside from the fact that I don't believe in God, you aren't
likely to find much idea-wise that I have in common with,
well, apparently anyone, though I do have the genetic and
cultural heritage of a WASP.

-Carl

hi Dante,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
>
> > i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> > any further on-list communication with Sault
> > will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> > he wants to become a member of this list and
> > join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.
>
> So in other words, as long as he and his goose-stepping
> friends dont come to >your< house in the middle of the night,
> you're happy to chat with him?

that's not what i said, but i suppose you could make
a defensible argument for interpreting it that way.

> Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
>
> http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
>
>
> Resentment v Hatred
>
>
> "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
> it is a natural response to a false accusation.
>
> I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to
> socialize with them, for the simple reason that they are
> deliberately obnoxious - they cultivate their obnoxiousness
> so as to provoke dislike so they can maintain their complaints
> of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> those that possess such a thing and who are unaware they
> themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."

yes. paul erlich emailed it to me privately.

he's stereotyping. lots of people do it all the time.

hey, when he first started posting to the tuning list,
it looked to me like he might have something new to add
to what i already know about tuning. because of the
nature of his posting style and even moreso because of
this "imbroglio", i have yet to confirm that suspicion.
that's all i'm interested in doing.

i'm a pacifist, and try my damndest not to get caught
up in polarized arguments like this. the *only* reason
i responded to this particular thread at all was because
i so strongly sympathize with his feelings about Bush.

if i'm going to expend my energy on trying to rid the
world of evil people, it will Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield et al,
and not Sault. Sault may be *capable* of doing damage,
but those guys *are* doing it. as far as i'm concerned,
in 3 years they've ruined everything good in the world
that America has helped to create over the last two centuries.

-monz

hi Carl,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> 3-year-peak Sonas-rated players since 1851
> (www.chessmetrics.com)
> --------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Capablanca, Jose.....2903 31-Dec-1921 to 31-Dec-1923
> 2. Fischer, Robert......2902 31-Dec-1971 to 31-Dec-1973
> 3. Lasker, Emanuel......2877 31-Dec-1917 to 31-Dec-1919
> 4. Kasparov, Garry......2873 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
> 5. Anand, Viswanathan...2824 31-Dec-1996 to 31-Dec-1998
> 6. Botvinnik, Mikhail...2824 31-Dec-1948 to 31-Dec-1950
> 7. Steinitz, Wilhelm....2824 31-Dec-1886 to 31-Dec-1888
> 8. Alekhine, Alexander..2822 31-Dec-1930 to 31-Dec-1932
> 9. Kramnik, Vladimir....2813 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
> //

at first glance i was surprised to see Capablanca over Fischer,
and Kasparov below both of them!

but you know me ... i needed to make a graph to get a
proper view of things. here it is:

/metatuning/files/monz/chess-masters.gif

(Kasparov's ranking still surprises me. IMO opinion he's
possibly the greatest ever.)

-monz

On Thursday 11 December 2003 02:51 am, monz wrote:
> hi Dante,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

> > Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
> >
> > http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
> >
> >
> > Resentment v Hatred
> >
> >
> > "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
> > it is a natural response to a false accusation.
> >
> > I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to
> > socialize with them, for the simple reason that they are
> > deliberately obnoxious - they cultivate their obnoxiousness
> > so as to provoke dislike so they can maintain their complaints
> > of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> > those that possess such a thing and who are unaware they
> > themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."
>
> yes. paul erlich emailed it to me privately.
>
> he's stereotyping. lots of people do it all the time.

Yes, it's true. But it still does damage. But I will be the first to admit I
do that kind of thing, too.

For example-in my college years, I went to a liberal SUNY school, Purchase.
I absorbed the political left there (somewhat) enough to become left of center
politically. Now I'm back to center in just about all things. The experience
of living in a highly ethnically mixed neighborhood in Chicago (Rogers Park)
left me with the unfortunate feeling that I do not mix well with the general
lower classes, particularly Black and Hispanic, (the whites were mostly
students or recent students like myself). The car stereos blared so much, my
blood boiled. I was stared at, and my wife was particularly stared at, enough
to make me feel uncomfortable and even defensively violent at times, like I
was waiting for someone to start something with me because I am white. Not a
good state of mind.

We now live in a great safe, mostly white neighborhood, and we love it. We
feel a peace that comes from knowing that we live among others who are
interested in being constructive, not destructive, citizens.

About racial profiling--it's just statistics. Blacks and Hispanics are proven
to commit more crimes per capita. Don't give me liberal shit--remember--I
lived among them. If they are not up to no good, they shouldn't worry about
being stopped-end of story. And until they stop being up to no good, they
will be profiled. (Yes, believe it or not I'm a Democrat, not by choice, but
because we lack a center party and I hate Bush and pals way more than I hate
the radical left)

Now I laugh when I see the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons of the world,
preaching that Whites are the root of all their ills. Historically?
Yes....but, they play victim so much instead of pulling themselves out of
their own shitty boxes. They've had every legal advantage thrown at them.
Black culture in general is in a state of utter decay and illiteracy. And the
sullenness on display, the attitude you recieve simply for being white is
amazing-no eye contact, etc. This is going on in Chicago anyway, and I know,
I know, ultimately it's an economic thing.

I have nothing but respect for a black or hispanic person who is articulate,
well-educated, and polite, like any human being should be. They or their
family, must have had to overcome much more than the average white, to get to
that position.

> if i'm going to expend my energy on trying to rid the
> world of evil people, it will Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield et al,
> and not Sault. Sault may be *capable* of doing damage,
> but those guys *are* doing it. as far as i'm concerned,
> in 3 years they've ruined everything good in the world
> that America has helped to create over the last two centuries.

Amen to that, with the exception that we haven't created much good except
freedom. Our government itself most often acts in ugly self interest (look at
the history of our enabling Dictatorships abroad-Pinochet in Chile, Saddam in
Iraq, the Ayahtollah in Iran, etc.) These fact always turn around and bite us
in the ass.

Collectively, in spite of ourhigh human ideals, America acts as stupidly and
fear-based as any country in the word we hate.

BTW, don'c count on Bush losing-I'm afraid with have to listen to his idiocy
for another 4 years-the Democrats are a weak, zero strategy, uncharismatic,
whining bunch.

Best,
Aaron.

OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

In a message dated 12/11/2003 3:54:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
monz@... writes:

> i'm a pacifist

Notice the "fist" in pacifist. Similarly, in the word "therapist" a little
space between the e and the r gives "the rapist." Notice that vegetarians can
be really mean to people? Notice that gorillas are a depressed species as
represented by the fact that they sleep near their feces?

To hell with the labels. I feel no safer with a pacifist than I do with
anyone else. Did you hear that Switzerland was neutral in World War II?

Thank you Kalle, Jon, Paul, Dante, and others that realize there are bigger
and more importantant things than "tuning," even on these lists.

Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 12/11/2003 12:08:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
clumma@... writes:

> BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even
> be Jewish himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio,
> streamed over the internet, were my first exposure to
> antisemitism.

Why do you say apparently, Carl? Yes he is Jewish and lives in Serbia. What
is key to his rants is his mental illness, Schizophrenia. Your first
exposure to antisemitism was before you were born. It is inherited. Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thursday 11 December 2003 02:51 am, monz wrote:
> hi Dante,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > > i have nothing else to say in this matter.
> > > any further on-list communication with Sault
> > > will be about tuning and nothing else, unless
> > > he wants to become a member of this list and
> > > join me and deLaubenfels in Bush-bashing.
> >
> > So in other words, as long as he and his goose-stepping
> > friends dont come to >your< house in the middle of the night,
> > you're happy to chat with him?
>
> that's not what i said, but i suppose you could make
> a defensible argument for interpreting it that way.
>
> > Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
> >
> > http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
> >
> >
> > Resentment v Hatred
> >
> >
> > "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
> > it is a natural response to a false accusation.
> >
> > I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to
> > socialize with them, for the simple reason that they are
> > deliberately obnoxious - they cultivate their obnoxiousness
> > so as to provoke dislike so they can maintain their complaints
> > of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> > those that possess such a thing and who are unaware they
> > themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."
>
> yes. paul erlich emailed it to me privately.
>
>
> he's stereotyping. lots of people do it all the time.
>
> hey, when he first started posting to the tuning list,
> it looked to me like he might have something new to add
> to what i already know about tuning. because of the
> nature of his posting style and even moreso because of
> this "imbroglio", i have yet to confirm that suspicion.
> that's all i'm interested in doing.
>
> i'm a pacifist, and try my damndest not to get caught
> up in polarized arguments like this. the *only* reason
> i responded to this particular thread at all was because
> i so strongly sympathize with his feelings about Bush.
>
> if i'm going to expend my energy on trying to rid the
> world of evil people, it will Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield et al,
> and not Sault. Sault may be *capable* of doing damage,
> but those guys *are* doing it. as far as i'm concerned,
> in 3 years they've ruined everything good in the world
> that America has helped to create over the last two centuries.
>
>
>
> -monz

One more thought, monz, it's complacency with these views that allowed the
Nazis to win political power unchallened. It's allowing a bully to be a
bully.

Just a thought.

Best,
Aaron.

OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

[Monz:]
>>i'm a pacifist

[Johnny:]
>Notice the "fist" in pacifist. Similarly, in the word "therapist" a little space between the e and the r gives "the rapist." Notice that vegetarians can be really mean to people? Notice that gorillas are a depressed species as represented by the fact that they sleep near their feces?

Clever. Kind of like "Assume makes an Ass of U and Me" in the Bad News Bears. More or less meaningless, however.

>To hell with the labels. I feel no safer with a pacifist than I do with anyone else. Did you hear that Switzerland was neutral in World War II?

That doesn't meet with your approval, I presume, staying out of war whenever possible?

>Thank you Kalle, Jon, Paul, Dante, and others that realize there are bigger and more importantant things than "tuning," even on these lists.

So... the wishes of all the tuning list members who PLEADED with both sides to take it somewhere else, those wishes are all dogmeat, eh? Whenever you or anybody else feels compelled to get on his high horse after rooting around to find whatever dirt you can on a poster, it's appropriate to throw it at the list and get everybody screaming at each other instead of talking about tuning? It's not enough to post on metatuning, and e-mail the guy privately that you've done so?

Perhaps follow the guy around, if possible, and stir up trouble for him everywhere he appears? Whatever subject he posts on, reply with your assertion that he's a potential Nazi. Inject your moral righteousness wherever possible, is that the ideal?

[Carl:]
>>BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even be Jewish himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio, streamed over the internet, were my first exposure to antisemitism.

[Johnny:]
>Why do you say apparently, Carl? Yes he is Jewish and lives in Serbia. What is key to his rants is his mental illness, Schizophrenia. Your first exposure to antisemitism was before you were born. It is inherited.

Now there's a theory! The perfect excuse for the perfect persecution complex. Or am I failing to appreciate a joke, Johnny?

JdL

P.S. Thanks for posting here rather than tuning!

> > 3-year-peak Sonas-rated players since 1851
> > (www.chessmetrics.com)
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > 1. Capablanca, Jose.....2903 31-Dec-1921 to 31-Dec-1923
> > 2. Fischer, Robert......2902 31-Dec-1971 to 31-Dec-1973
> > 3. Lasker, Emanuel......2877 31-Dec-1917 to 31-Dec-1919
> > 4. Kasparov, Garry......2873 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
> > 5. Anand, Viswanathan...2824 31-Dec-1996 to 31-Dec-1998
> > 6. Botvinnik, Mikhail...2824 31-Dec-1948 to 31-Dec-1950
> > 7. Steinitz, Wilhelm....2824 31-Dec-1886 to 31-Dec-1888
> > 8. Alekhine, Alexander..2822 31-Dec-1930 to 31-Dec-1932
> > 9. Kramnik, Vladimir....2813 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
> > //
>
> at first glance i was surprised to see Capablanca over Fischer,
> and Kasparov below both of them!

Capa only edges out Bobby by 1 point, well within the margin of
error for this.

Comparing chess players from different points in history is
very tricky, because like everything else, the level of chess
understanding in the world has gone up. So Kasparov could
without a doubt beat Fischer or Capa if he could go back in
time. What this rating measures is the level of 'domination'
of the player over his contemporaries. In this regard Fischer
and Capa are clearly without equal. If you look at some of
the graphs on Jeff's site, including the 1- and 5-year moving
averages, you'll see their lines way up above the cluster of
everybody elses'. It's crazy. Both he and Bobby enjoyed long
stretches without a single loss.

-Carl

> > BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even
> > be Jewish himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio,
> > streamed over the internet, were my first exposure to
> > antisemitism.
>
> Why do you say apparently, Carl?

Because I don't know, it was just something I heard. Maybe
you'd care to share your knowledge of the subject?

> What is key to his rants is his mental illness, Schizophrenia.

Fischer has never been diagnosed with Schizophrenia to anyone's
knowledge. That he is mentally ill, I have little doubt.

> Your first exposure to antisemitism was before you were born.
> It is inherited.

Oh great. Antisemitism is inherited, is it? And you're implying
that I have it? Great Johnny, just great.

-Carl

> About racial profiling--it's just statistics. Blacks and Hispanics
are proven
> to commit more crimes per capita. Don't give me liberal
shit--remember--I
> lived among them.

If you're talking about crimes involving theft in the $1000-and-less
range, I bet Aaron may be right that the perpetrators are largely
Black and Hispanic. If you're talking about crimes involving the theft
of a billion dollars or more, I'll bet that profile is 99.9% white
male, and those crimes are the ones that make it difficult for all the
rest of us to get by, especially Blacks, Hispanics, artists, etc. It's
true that none of us, probably, live in the same neighborhoods as
those white-collar criminals, so we can't say we've lived among them;
and the government spends a lot of PR money making sure that we
identify criminal types with Willie Horton instead of Kenneth Lay.

If that's liberal shit, sorry. Fact as well.

Cheers,

Kyle

In a message dated 12/11/2003 2:36:33 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jdl@... writes:

> >To hell with the labels. I feel no safer with a pacifist than I do with
> anyone else. Did you hear that Switzerland was neutral in World War II?
>
> That doesn't meet with your approval, I presume, staying out of war whenever
> possible?

Switzerland kept the Nazi concentration camps open a full 2 years later than
they would have because they were laundering the gold plucked from out of the
teeth of the murdered. My point is that Switzerland was not neutral in
actuality. It was marketing.

Staying out of war does meet with my approval in most circumstances. I guess
you did assume.

>
> >Thank you Kalle, Jon, Paul, Dante, and others that realize there are bigger
> and more importantant things than "tuning," even on these lists.
>
> So... the wishes of all the tuning list members who PLEADED with both sides
> to take it somewhere else, those wishes are all dogmeat, eh? Whenever you or
> anybody else feels compelled to get on his high horse after rooting around
> to find whatever dirt you can on a poster, it's appropriate to throw it at the
> list and get everybody screaming at each other instead of talking about
> tuning? It's not enough to post on metatuning, and e-mail the guy privately that
> you've done so?
>

I am trying to accept that you perceive things differently than I. As you
say at the end, I agree that this discussion deserves to be on Metatuning. I
hope you realize that I do not consider anyone dogmeat, even you. If my horse
is high, then you must be crouching.

And you are now attacking me for no reason. I did not dig up dirt on anyone.
I merely expressed my support for people that put humanity before tuning.
Does this not seem sane to you? Please retract silly accusations against me
since I did not scream, nor set in motion any screaming. Why are you screaming?

> Perhaps follow the guy around, if possible, and stir up trouble for him
> everywhere he appears? Whatever subject he posts on, reply with your assertion
> that he's a potential Nazi. Inject your moral righteousness wherever
> possible, is that the ideal?
>
> [Carl:]
> >>BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even be Jewish
> himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio, streamed over the internet, were
> my first exposure to antisemitism.
>
> [Johnny:]
> >Why do you say apparently, Carl? Yes he is Jewish and lives in Serbia. What
> is key to his rants is his mental illness, Schizophrenia. Your first
> exposure to antisemitism was before you were born. It is inherited.
>
> Now there's a theory! The perfect excuse for the perfect persecution
> complex. Or am I failing to appreciate a joke, Johnny?
>
> JdL
>

I was born into it. History takes place before birth in this regard. You
could wish it away, or put your head into the dirt, but it is blowing at
hurricane levels throughout the world right now. Witness this list.

> P.S. Thanks for posting here rather than tuning!
>
>

You are most welcome.

Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/11/2003 3:54:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> monz@a... writes:
>
> > i'm a pacifist
>
> Notice the "fist" in pacifist.

Notice the "ass" in bassoon. Johnny, those comments to Joe were about as helpful as ... I can't even come up with a metaphor. I'm a pacifist as well, as a member of the Religious Society of Friends (better known as Quakers). There are all kinds of people, so you as well needn't get into the 'labelling'.

Best,
Jon

Are you saying some have a genetic dispiosition toward antisemitism ?

Afmmjr@... wrote:

Your first

> exposure to antisemitism was before you were born. It is inherited. Johnny
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

nazis are not the only ones that act as bullies though

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

>
>
> One more thought, monz, it's complacency with these views that allowed the
> Nazis to win political power unchallened. It's allowing a bully to be a
> bully.
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Kyle-

What you say below is true, about white collar crimes, so I wouldn't put it in
the 'liberal bullshit' category.

What I would put in that category is the idea that Black neighborhoods are
safe, fun places to be. People who make those comment have never lived in
one. I refer to that complete liar and falsifier of data, Michael Moore, who
in 'Bowling for Columbine', stands at a tough black LA street corner with a
camera crew at noon, and declares 'what's so bad about this?'

Try going there at 11pm, Michael, alone, without your film crew. Then tell me
how pleasant it is. Michael Moore makes me sick.

Can you give a specific reference as to how our government targets Black
criminals in PR campaigns? I have a sense that this is a half-truth, but I
don't know.

Best,
Aaron.

On Thursday 11 December 2003 02:40 pm, kylegann1955 wrote:
> > About racial profiling--it's just statistics. Blacks and Hispanics
>
> are proven
>
> > to commit more crimes per capita. Don't give me liberal
>
> shit--remember--I
>
> > lived among them.
>
> If you're talking about crimes involving theft in the $1000-and-less
> range, I bet Aaron may be right that the perpetrators are largely
> Black and Hispanic. If you're talking about crimes involving the theft
> of a billion dollars or more, I'll bet that profile is 99.9% white
> male, and those crimes are the ones that make it difficult for all the
> rest of us to get by, especially Blacks, Hispanics, artists, etc. It's
> true that none of us, probably, live in the same neighborhoods as
> those white-collar criminals, so we can't say we've lived among them;
> and the government spends a lot of PR money making sure that we
> identify criminal types with Willie Horton instead of Kenneth Lay.
>
> If that's liberal shit, sorry. Fact as well.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

Hi Aaron!
Sorry to jump in before kyle gets a chance to respond but thought i would add
these.
For one thing kind of on this line is that most people picture those on welfare
as black, hispanic or other minorities. In point of fact 60% are white.
Economically , that large record corporations push black rappers in large
number of whites help to perpetuate that all blacks are criminals. i mean there
are white rappers but how many black heavy metal or country artists do you find?
blacks and whites convicted of the same crime results in far more blacks serving
time in prison.
I lived on Skid row in Los Angeles for 5 years (not on the street though) and
found the cops as scary as anyone on the street
"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

>
>
> Can you give a specific reference as to how our government targets Black
> criminals in PR campaigns? I have a sense that this is a half-truth, but I
> don't know.
>
> Best,
> Aaron.
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

hi Aaron,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> One more thought, monz, it's complacency with these
> views [denying the holocaust, etc.] that allowed the
> Nazis to win political power unchallened. It's allowing
> a bully to be a bully.
>
> Just a thought.

and right you are -- i agree completely. i never said
that one *should* be complacent. i simply said that *i*
am not getting involved in this particular argument.

i believe 100% in expressing one's opinions on something,
be they negative, positive, or indifferent. i write
something nearly every day challenging the misdoings of
Bush and his cronies, because i don't like 1) that fact
that he stole the office and unrightfully claims to be
"president", and 2) what he/they are doing to both America
and the rest of the world.

in fact, it bothers me quite a lot that so many other
Americans seem to be so complacent about what's happened
here since November 2000, and that so many of them seem
to accept unquestioningly the "fair, balanced" bullshit
being slung at us via our TVs, radios, and newspapers.

-monz

hi Carl,

thanks for clarifying that for me. now this list makes
perfect sense.

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > > 3-year-peak Sonas-rated players since 1851
> > > (www.chessmetrics.com)
> > > --------------------------------------------------------
> > > 1. Capablanca, Jose.....2903 31-Dec-1921 to 31-Dec-1923
> > > 2. Fischer, Robert......2902 31-Dec-1971 to 31-Dec-1973
> > > 3. Lasker, Emanuel......2877 31-Dec-1917 to 31-Dec-1919
> > > 4. Kasparov, Garry......2873 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
> > > 5. Anand, Viswanathan...2824 31-Dec-1996 to 31-Dec-1998
> > > 6. Botvinnik, Mikhail...2824 31-Dec-1948 to 31-Dec-1950
> > > 7. Steinitz, Wilhelm....2824 31-Dec-1886 to 31-Dec-1888
> > > 8. Alekhine, Alexander..2822 31-Dec-1930 to 31-Dec-1932
> > > 9. Kramnik, Vladimir....2813 31-Dec-1998 to 31-Dec-2000
> > > //
> >
> > at first glance i was surprised to see Capablanca over Fischer,
> > and Kasparov below both of them!
>
> Capa only edges out Bobby by 1 point, well within the margin of
> error for this.
>
> Comparing chess players from different points in history is
> very tricky, because like everything else, the level of chess
> understanding in the world has gone up. So Kasparov could
> without a doubt beat Fischer or Capa if he could go back in
> time. What this rating measures is the level of 'domination'
> of the player over his contemporaries. In this regard Fischer
> and Capa are clearly without equal. If you look at some of
> the graphs on Jeff's site, including the 1- and 5-year moving
> averages, you'll see their lines way up above the cluster of
> everybody elses'. It's crazy. Both he and Bobby enjoyed long
> stretches without a single loss.
>
> -Carl

I wrote...

> I'm no longer talking about Mr. Sault here, rather about the
> prototypical antisemite. Such a moniker turns ideas into
> people. WASP is similar. Am I a WASP? No, I am Carl Lumma.
> Aside from the fact that I don't believe in God, you aren't
> likely to find much idea-wise that I have in common with,
> well, apparently anyone,

Actually, I was quite surprised when I recently discovered
that the cartoon South Park expouses a political view nearly
identical to my own. I used to deride this show for being
excessively baudy and of low quality. I basically couldn't
have been more wrong. For any of you who would deride me
here, you might instead sit down with an episode. It's
potentially much more humorous than conversating with me.

Jon, I noticed you replied to a sent-by-accident version
of my reply, which didn't display on the web for me for
hours. I don't know if you saw it, but the full reply
is at:

/metatuning/topicId_6327.html#6344

-Carl

In a message dated 12/11/2003 10:40:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kraiggrady@... writes:

> Are you saying some have a genetic dispiosition toward antisemitism ?
>
> Afmmjr@... wrote:
>
> Your first
>
> >exposure to antisemitism was before you were born. It is inherited.
> Johnny
> >
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
>

Hi All,

First off, inheritance is not specific to genetics. So, no, I'm not saying
we have any genetic disposition towards hatred of others, though the world
seems to give this some circumstantial support.

When I sign off using "best, Johnny" I mean this. This should be clear to
all by now. I think Jon Szanto was eloquent in evidencing the "fist" in
pacifist. I'm sure he meant "cheers" to me when he wrote, taking him at his word.

I inherited antisemitism. It was nothing I could deny or shake off. It is
becoming ever greater in my life (as for example this list). After my family
was decimated by events 60 years ago, I thought once off welfare in my youth,
and now fully aware of the goodness of people and the value of tolerance of
difference cultures and beliefs, antisemitism was a thing of the past.

In New York, with one of the largest Jewish populations in the world, there
was little to remind me of past history other than my family history and my
step-father's camp tatoo. In the last several years I have learned that I was
naive for years thinking antisemitism was also anti-arab, since both were using
semitic languages. So many still do. Actually, antisemitism was set up to be
reserved for Jews only.

Now, I know everyone on this list takes everything on this list personally,
but when I said to Carl that we are born with antisemitism, it is with this
thought in mind. Even born a WASP, he is born to antisemitism as it flourishes
or flounders around him. It is intellectually dishonest to deny its existence
and pretend not to know its real meaning.

Its meaning is hate. Like all biases, they are acceptable in the US as long
as they are not followed up by actions. Unfortunately, free speech can cause
actions in others, complete strangers, as well as those easily influenced.
That is why free speech should not be equated with eratic and unedited speech.

best, Johnny Reinhard

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 12/11/2003 6:29:30 PM Eastern Standard Time,
clumma@... writes:

> >>BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even
> >>be Jewish himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio,
> >>streamed over the internet, were my first exposure to
> >>antisemitism.
> >
> >Why do you say apparently, Carl?
>
> Because I don't know, it was just something I heard. Maybe
> you'd care to share your knowledge of the subject

A look at the web finds that his mother Regina was Jewish. He was a
neighborhood icon for Jewish Brooklyn where I grew up.

> >What is key to his rants is his mental illness, Schizophrenia.
>
> Fischer has never been diagnosed with Schizophrenia to anyone's
> knowledge. That he is mentally ill, I have little doubt.
>

To anyone with knowledge of schizophrenia, a widespread genetic-based, but
environment influenced, mental disorder, Bobby Fischer is rather text-book.
Even if he had been diagnosed why should this be made public "to anyone's
knowledge"?

> >Your first exposure to antisemitism was before you were born.
> >It is inherited.
>
> Oh great. Antisemitism is inherited, is it? And you're implying
> that I have it? Great Johnny, just great.
>
> -Carl
>

Why does everyone leap to an a supposed implication? Can't you all just deal
with what I am saying instead? Please read my other post on "inheriting
antisemitism" from today.

Great Carl, just great. Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Now, I know everyone on this list takes everything on this
> list personally, but when I said to Carl that we are born
> with antisemitism,

Well you used the pronoun "you", and I hope you'll see that
it could have been read the way I was reading it.

>Even born a WASP, he is born to antisemitism as it flourishes
>or flounders around him.

We're all born into everything in the world. Of course I
didn't invent antisemitism, but if you had asked me what that
word means when I was 18, I really couldn't have told you.
My first exposure to the issue came from movies such as
Schindler's list, and from History class, but I didn't have
a name for it. Where I was raised there were no jewish people.
I didn't know anything about them -- about the large population
in New York, that it both biological inheretance and religious
ideas play a role. I loved Fiddler on the Roof as a kid, and
in retrospect it's depicting Russian Jewish culture isn't it,
but I didn't have a clue then. I read Surely You're Joking
Mr. Ferryman when I was 17 and he mentions something about
being jewish in there but to tell you the truth I don't think
it sank in.

I say all this not to say that I wasn't exposed and effected
by antisemitism, but simply to offer that perhaps innocence
is also a natural thing and that perhaps it does carry positive
as well as negative connotations.

> It is intellectually dishonest to deny its existence
> and pretend not to know its real meaning.

Now of course I know it exists. I was denying I know the
meaning of the term Antisemite, which is true. I also think
this word is a moving target in the dangerous game of
McCarthyism I was trying to warn against.

-Carl

> > >>BTW, I was referring to Bobby Fisher, who apparently may even
> > >>be Jewish himself. His rants on Argentine (IIRC) radio,
> > >>streamed over the internet, were my first exposure to
> > >>antisemitism.
> > >
> > >Why do you say apparently, Carl?
> >
> > Because I don't know, it was just something I heard. Maybe
> > you'd care to share your knowledge of the subject
>
> A look at the web finds that his mother Regina was Jewish. He
> was a neighborhood icon for Jewish Brooklyn where I grew up.

Well there you go.

> > >What is key to his rants is his mental illness,
> > >Schizophrenia.
> >
> > Fischer has never been diagnosed with Schizophrenia to
> > anyone's knowledge. That he is mentally ill, I have little
> > doubt.
> >
>
> To anyone with knowledge of schizophrenia, a widespread
> genetic-based, but environment influenced, mental disorder,
> Bobby Fischer is rather text-book.

Perhaps. Bipolar disorder can also cause very similar symptoms.

> Even if he had been diagnosed why should this be made public
> "to anyone's knowledge"?

I simply meant it's not very nice to go around saying somebody
has a serious medical condition -- one which, while not quite
being scientific, does have strict diagnosis guidelines -- when
one doesn't really know.

-Carl

In a message dated 12/12/2003 11:57:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
clumma@... writes:

> I simply meant it's not very nice to go around saying somebody
> has a serious medical condition -- one which, while not quite
> being scientific, does have strict diagnosis guidelines -- when
> one doesn't really know.
>
> -Carl
>

I cannot agree with you. Poor Mr. Fischer has been described with mental
illness many times in my lifetime. It is also throughout the web. My own
biological father is schizophrenic. I do not believe it is not an insult to suggest
an illness to someone that is spouting hatred and dirt in a public forum.
You may think Fischer is bi-polar (and I think you would be wrong), but you are
stating an illness just as well.

Antisemitism is ultimately the result of illness in my opinion anyway.

best, Johnny

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > I simply meant it's not very nice to go around saying somebody
> > has a serious medical condition -- one which, while not quite
> > being scientific, does have strict diagnosis guidelines -- when
> > one doesn't really know.
> >
> > -Carl
> >
>
> I cannot agree with you. Poor Mr. Fischer has been described
> with mental illness many times in my lifetime. It is also
> throughout the web.

Yeah Johnny, and if you saw it in my earlier reply I said I
had "no doubt" that Fischer suffered from a mental illness.

> You may think Fischer is bi-polar (and I think you would be
> wrong),

I don't think that, I simply am stating that neither you or I
have any way of differentiating these illnesses by hearing
Fischer speak a few times.

-Carl

Hi Aaron,

I lived in one of the worst neighborhoods in Oakland for
a little while, and I can attest to the conditions you
describe. Even in expensive "gentrified" neighborhoods
which border ghettos, residents can expect regular breakins
and even theft of their cars. Two friends of mine have
been mugged within blocks of their apartments.

While the problem is economic, this can heal. Listening
to jazz and even George Clinton, I felt the culture would
surely pull itself up by its bootstraps. However, it seems
to be malingering instead, unwilling or unable to move
forward. There seems to be no value placed on refined
perception, education, science, etc.

One of the more interesting suggestions I've seen about
how to help involves the creation of local neighborhood
currencies...

http://www.nexuspub.com/articles/2003/july2003/interview.htm

...of course the IRS is committed to making sure they stay
illegal.

> Michael Moore makes me sick.

I can't stand him either. The Left here in Berkeley treat
him like a God, which is very irritating. You can find two
reviews of Bowling for Columbine on my blog (lumma.org/microwave).

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> Even in expensive "gentrified" neighborhoods
> which border ghettos, residents can expect regular breakins
> and even theft of their cars. I felt the culture would
> surely pull itself up by its bootstraps. However, it seems
> to be malingering instead, unwilling or unable to move
> forward.

"The culture"? There's a nice, monolithic view of a large number of people(s).

> There seems to be no value placed on refined perception,
> education, science, etc.

Instead of listening to Lil Kim and playing basketball they should be listening to barbershop quartets and playing chess, right? Carl, since you've got at least partial control of tuning maybe you should just go all the way and rename it "whites only tuning".

The more verbose you get, the more posts you make, the more clear a portrait you paint of yourself. And your lack of compassion, on many fronts, leaps into the lead. Paul Erlich, 'friend' and colleague - any public words of support? Any speaking out against his treatment by Sault?

Hmmm. Didn't think so...

Jon

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

> "The culture"? There's a nice, monolithic view of a large
> number of people(s).

Yes such a thing is always dangerous, and you can see what
flack I have taken for trying to correct others on this
point re. the recent discussion.

In this case I was referring to a local culture which I have
been directly involved with as a neighbor and a teacher.

> > There seems to be no value placed on refined perception,
> > education, science, etc.
>
> Instead of listening to Lil Kim and playing basketball they
> should be listening to barbershop quartets and playing chess,
> right?

Wrong.

> Carl, since you've got at least partial control of tuning
> maybe you should just go all the way and rename it "whites
> only tuning".

Jon, you demonstrate the emotional maturity of a 3-year-old.
You want to be a moderator, I offerred it to you (or anyone
else). Your obvious distaste for the fact that I am a
moderator really couldn't have been more transparent.

But wait, didn't you storm out of the tuning list at least
once before claiming it was a waste of time, etc.?

> The more verbose you get, the more posts you make, the more
> clear a portrait you paint of yourself. And your lack of
> compassion, on many fronts, leaps into the lead.

From where I am sitting it is you who have spent most of your
verbiage on the list over the years complaining about the
behavoir of others, while seldom offering anything constructive
of your own. Remember Jon "positive contribution" Szanto?

You've done a great job with MMM, which is a very healthy
list fulfilling a very important role. Why don't you stick
to it?

Meanwhile you haven't addressed a single point in the post
I referred you to. If you didn't understand something I
wrote you could have asked. If you felt I made an error
you could have pointed it out. But instead you would rather
jump to conclusions and then accuse me of them in public.

Overwhelmingly Jon, the picture you paint is of someone who
loves to feel bad. Bad about politics, bad about me, bad
about the list. Just look at the way you lashed out at me
when Arnold was elected.

>Paul Erlich, 'friend' and colleague - any public words of
>support? Any speaking out against his treatment by Sault?

And what did Sault do to him? I must have missed it. What
I saw was Paul claiming he believed his people practiced
canabalism, which I still have seen no support for. Meanwhile
Paul and I have had extensive conversations off-list.

I have a very sour feeling about Sault, and I've only recently
found myself able to reply to him, and I'm working very hard
at this in the interest of the list. Deep down I hope he will
leave or something, but it's not my place to feel that way and
certainly not to show it.

Raciscm was fairly common where I was raised, and a few of my
good friends had moderately racist ideas. I remember when
I first found out about those of my friend Matt. I'd known
him for 10 years, and I stood there shaking my head, "You
don't really believe that, do you Matt?" It turns out he did,
on some level. Perhaps Sault is like Matt, or perhaps he is
worse. I don't know.

Like I said; not as funny as South Park.

-Carl

The satirist kindly noted that love can quickly turn to hate in the
capricious minds of boys and girls. In my lily-white neighborhood,
the most capriciously hateful minds seem to belong to...the
Homeowner's Association!

L,

P

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

>
> Can you give a specific reference as to how our government targets
Black
> criminals in PR campaigns? I have a sense that this is a half-truth,
but I
> don't know.
>

Hello all,

Forgive me for being slow to respond, I'm in bed with a massive head
cold. Maybe the flu.

Well, there was the Willie Horton campaign itself, which made Dukakis
look soft on crime, and Ronald Reagan always had a story ready about
some Black welfare queen who bought a Cadillac off her welfare money -
these stories inevitably turned out to be fictional. The bookstore
across the river from me in Woodstock (liberal Mecca, I realize, which
is one reason I'm where I am) has an entire section devoted to books
about how the media have conspired with the government to create fear
in the population, justifying a fascist trend in government. I can't
bring any specific titles in mind, and am too ill to go look. One
telling statistic is that violent crime declined in America all
through the late 1980s and '90s, while the public perception was that
crime was getting worse. Michael Moore brings this one up, and for all
his hyperbole and misfired sarcasm, I treasure Michael Moore: he's
brought a tremendous amount of important information (especially about
white-collar welfare criminals) into the mainstream that the media
buried out of view. No politician has done as much to bring the truth
to so many people. Of course, I prefer Noam Chomsky as being more
precise, but Chomsky doesn't get out to the public as much.

Of the last four African-American students in the Bard music
department, one has been a shiftless liar with a new excuse every day,
the other three have been straight-A students, good musicians, and
leaders in the community. What generalization should I draw from this,
that 75% of Blacks are hard-working and talented? We've got one kid
who's the best jazz pianist in the department, writes A+ papers for
classes, plays in every ensemble, accompanies 16 jazz singers, was
elected Peer Counselor for his dorm, has a great, gentle sense of
humor, is modest, kind, articulate, and popular. He dresses,
creatively, a little like he's from the 'hood. His parents, I recently
learned, were Black Panthers in the '60s, and if I ever wondered
whether the Panthers were good guys or bad guys, I have to conclude
that only mature, realistic, loving people could have brought up a
young man as sterling in every way as this one. I admire him: I wasn't
nearly so together at his age.

The idea that anyone could look at this kid and assume, because of his
race and the way he looks and dresses, that he would be more likely to
commit a crime than my other students just makes me sick. This kid is
supposedly from a "culture" that "needs to pull itself up by its
bootstraps and won't do it" - what do I do with that information? Had
I grown up with no money in some hellhole like the Robert Taylor homes
in Chicago, would I have started stealing and committing petty crimes
to survive? Probably. If I were suddenly appointed a CEO at
Halliburton and offered the chance to siphon off hundreds of millions
into my own personal account, would I be able to resist the
temptation? Maybe; I hope so. We're formed by our experiences and our
situations, not our racial genes.

And when I see people characterize a race by the type of crimes or
misdemeanors typically committed by a minority of its members, I
always think about the crime stereotype I fall into as a white male:

White males are 60,000,000 times as likely to kill 6,000,000 Jews in
gas chambers as any other group.

White males are 60,000,000,000 times as likely to use their father's
friends in the Supreme Court to steal an election as any other group.

White males are 1,000,000 times as likely to make up lies about
fictional weapons of mass destruction to justify invading a country
whose oil they want as any other group, etc.

Cheers,

Kyle

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> In this case I was referring to a local culture which I have
> been directly involved with as a neighbor and a teacher.

Then you were completely unclear about that.

> Wrong.

Well, *you* brought up "jazz and George Clinton". If you found fault with their choices, then...?

> Jon, you demonstrate the emotional maturity of a 3-year-old.

That was a caustic and sarcastic remark, maybe in hopes of getting some kind of human response. But if I actually *show* some emotion, instead of being an automaton, fine.

> You want to be a moderator, I offerred it to you (or anyone
> else). Your obvious distaste for the fact that I am a
> moderator really couldn't have been more transparent.

No, no, no. I think it is fine, and I think you and Gene suit the makeup of the tuning list quite well.

> But wait, didn't you storm out of the tuning list at least
> once before claiming it was a waste of time, etc.?

Maybe once, but when I've left is was more simply matter of *I* didn't have time for it, not suggesting others do the same.

> From where I am sitting it is you who have spent most of your
> verbiage on the list over the years complaining about the
> behavoir of others, while seldom offering anything constructive
> of your own. Remember Jon "positive contribution" Szanto?

Being that the list took it's own course, my only positive response was MMM. If it is clear that people like yourself who will continue to be ardently concerned with the issues on the tuning list will do so in the manner that you choose, there isn't a lot I can offer.

> Meanwhile you haven't addressed a single point in the post
> I referred you to.

Carl, you may have posted another indavertantly, but the one you pointed out didn't contain much more information. And what extra it did didn't alter what I perceived as your explanations and intent.

> But instead you would rather jump to conclusions and then
> accuse me of them in public.

Look, I'm trying to take your words and make sense out of them. And try and figure out how you can say the things you say and not expect people to be upset. You have to know, Carl, that it isn't just me, and I'm sure there are people that, like you do, think I'm a pinhead as well. But you offer some very striking commentary, and frequently I find it appalling. It is hard for me to reconcile, because on the occasions we've met I've found you to be a genial person and it doesn't add up. But if you feel adamant about the stances you've taken recently, ok, and that is what I meant by a more complete picture.

> Overwhelmingly Jon, the picture you paint is of someone who
> loves to feel bad. Bad about politics, bad about me, bad
> about the list. Just look at the way you lashed out at me
> when Arnold was elected.

I didn't mean it as lashing out - but I *did* feel a need to point it out, as you would have never said "hey folks, I really put my foot in it this time..." Yeah, I feel bad about how the list has developed, but there aren't many other things I feel badly about. Maybe the state of the world, but who doesn't?

> And what did Sault do to him? I must have missed it.

I guess so.

> Meanwhile Paul and I have had extensive conversations off-list.

Mea culpa, Paul has not mentioned this.

> Like I said; not as funny as South Park.

No, none of this is funny. I hope it all works out.

Jon

Partch would have fun tackling such groups. very funny!

ambassadorbob wrote:

> In my lily-white neighborhood,
> the most capriciously hateful minds seem to belong to...the
> Homeowner's Association!
>
> L,
>
> P
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

In a message dated 12/13/03 11:38:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
JSZANTO@... writes:

> and I'm sure there are people that, like you do, think I'm a pinhead as
> well.

:)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > Wrong.
>
> Well, *you* brought up "jazz and George Clinton". If you
> found fault with their choices, then...?

It's not about the particular choices, it's about making them
or not.

I even like NWA. (from memory)

And don't let no pale face
Throw your ass in a snail race
Have your residents
Occupyin' a jail space
That's what they wanna do
'cause the system is fucked around
I try to let ya know
With the records 's underground
//
But if every nigga grabbed a 9
And started shootin' motherfuckas
It would put 'em in line

Yep, aside from admiring some of the lyrics and mixing on
this album (Niggaz 4 Life), I appreciated it as a constructive
alternative to actually grabbing a 9. And drug prohibition
laws have been used to jail so many blacks in LA that hell,
I'd probably be singing this stuff too.

When a good friend of mine started studying break dancing,
I learned about "battles". Freestyle MC showdowns are also
called battles. I don't really know much about this, but
once or twice I thought I glimpsed the beauty of this as
as an artistic alternative to actual battle. Break dancing,
by the way, is the bomb. It should be an Olympic sport
Ditto capoeira. They are every bit the equal of traditional
gymnastices (many of the routines are rediscoveries of
pommel horse routines anyway).

> That was a caustic and sarcastic remark, maybe in hopes of
> getting some kind of human response.

Sorry if I'm so robotic sometimes. You might say I practice
stoicism. I hope you can respect that.

> Being that the list took it's own course, my only positive
> response was MMM. If it is clear that people like yourself
> who will continue to be ardently concerned with the issues
> on the tuning list will do so in the manner that you choose,
> there isn't a lot I can offer.

Well, your knowledge of Partch and Orchestral practice is
certainly appreciated.

>It is hard for me to reconcile, because on the occasions we've
>met I've found you to be a genial person and it doesn't add up.
>But if you feel adamant about the stances you've taken recently,
>ok, and that is what I meant by a more complete picture.

We've probably had a misunderstanding. I think we are
philosophical opposites. But I don't think either of us are
bad guys.

>I didn't mean it as lashing out - but I *did* feel a need to
>point it out, as you would have never said "hey folks, I
>really put my foot in it this time..."

Yeah, I did at that.

-Carl

> > Well, *you* brought up "jazz and George Clinton". If you
> > found fault with their choices, then...?
>
> It's not about the particular choices, it's about making
> them or not.

Illiteracy is actually a huge problem in Oakland. I don't
care what you read, but you've got to read something.

I don't even want to say that you have to read something.
I once read that the Hopi have stories about how reading and
writing destroyed utopia. And I don't necessarily doubt it.
But for better or worse we can't live together if you can't
read. Reading confers such power to those who can do it,
that you just don't stand a chance if you can't.

-Carl

Thet say that those that don't read tend to have better memory. since they
can't write it down , it becomes more a necessity. Not that i am
recommending it. like nicotine, it actually increases memory also and is
good of alteimers disease, but what good is it if you can't breathe. do you
think Reagan has tried the patch?
or maybe we should send him a pack of Clove cigarettes

Carl Lumma wrote:

> I don't even want to say that you have to read something.
> I once read that the Hopi have stories about how reading and
> writing destroyed utopia. -Carl

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

On Saturday 13 December 2003 01:46 am, Jon Szanto wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > Even in expensive "gentrified" neighborhoods
> > which border ghettos, residents can expect regular breakins
> > and even theft of their cars. I felt the culture would
> > surely pull itself up by its bootstraps. However, it seems
> > to be malingering instead, unwilling or unable to move
> > forward.
>
> "The culture"? There's a nice, monolithic view of a large number of
> people(s).

What do you propose? Do the words 'black culture' honestly give you no
clear images to work with? Shit, they even use it themselves! Are we so
politically correct that we are become foolishly myopic. And what is 'Black
Entertainment?' They have a channel called 'BET'. I don't see you getting mad
at them for stereotyping themselves !

> > There seems to be no value placed on refined perception,
> > education, science, etc.
>
> Instead of listening to Lil Kim and playing basketball they should be
> listening to barbershop quartets and playing chess, right? Carl, since
> you've got at least partial control of tuning maybe you should just go all
> the way and rename it "whites only tuning".

Jon, you're jumping to conclusions and acting agressive and out of line.
Why dont you ask Carl some clarifying questions instead of indulging yourself
in Michael Moore style "Stupid White Men" rants? BTW, Michael Moore is a
rascist if there ever was one. Or should only reserve that term for what
whites people do to everyone else? Think about how upset Black people would
be if a book came out called "Stupid Black Men" ! It would be banned!!

>
> The more verbose you get, the more posts you make, the more clear a
> portrait you paint of yourself. And your lack of compassion, on many
> fronts, leaps into the lead. Paul Erlich, 'friend' and colleague - any
> public words of support? Any speaking out against his treatment by Sault?
>
> Hmmm. Didn't think so...

Jon, while I'm sure everyone agrees that Sault's politics are icky, he didn't
actually say anything derogitory towards Paul directly.

I for one am doing my best to ignore him. I would rather he weren't a
participant, but as long as Monz, Gene and others turn a blind eye to his
political views, he will remain on the list.

I go back and forth about all this myself, really.

Best,
Aaron.

> Jon
>
> "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence
> of our friends." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

Blacks use the equivalent n word all the time as meaning just this.

interesting at my station a Hispanic used the term beaner and the DJ was
suspended for 6 months. Why? because the audience couldn't tell he was of that
persuasion. this type of thing is absurd

I do think that media has done what it can to homogenized the different
black cultures in this country. growing up here and stranded in the watts riots
in Comptom and years later moving to Philly , i was struck at the completely
different situation of the blacks as well as the language which i was shocked to
hear forfirst time. No one speaks like this in the west coast. They have nothing
in common until Sony decided they did. Still there is a different between east
and west coast rap they can seem to get rid of. .
I met a linguist who was the expert (Ph.d) on the different dialects of blacks
in this country which he documented quite well.

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

>
> Think about how upset Black people would
> be if a book came out called "Stupid Black Men" ! It would be banned!!
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

On Saturday 13 December 2003 10:31 am, kylegann1955 wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > Can you give a specific reference as to how our government targets
>
> Black
>
> > criminals in PR campaigns? I have a sense that this is a half-truth,
>
> but I
>
> > don't know.
>
> Hello all,
>
> Forgive me for being slow to respond, I'm in bed with a massive head
> cold. Maybe the flu.
>
> Well, there was the Willie Horton campaign itself, which made Dukakis
> look soft on crime, and Ronald Reagan always had a story ready about
> some Black welfare queen who bought a Cadillac off her welfare money -
> these stories inevitably turned out to be fictional. The bookstore
> across the river from me in Woodstock (liberal Mecca, I realize, which
> is one reason I'm where I am) has an entire section devoted to books
> about how the media have conspired with the government to create fear
> in the population, justifying a fascist trend in government. I can't
> bring any specific titles in mind, and am too ill to go look. One
> telling statistic is that violent crime declined in America all
> through the late 1980s and '90s, while the public perception was that
> crime was getting worse. Michael Moore brings this one up, and for all
> his hyperbole and misfired sarcasm, I treasure Michael Moore: he's
> brought a tremendous amount of important information (especially about
> white-collar welfare criminals) into the mainstream that the media
> buried out of view. No politician has done as much to bring the truth
> to so many people. Of course, I prefer Noam Chomsky as being more
> precise, but Chomsky doesn't get out to the public as much.
>
> Of the last four African-American students in the Bard music
> department, one has been a shiftless liar with a new excuse every day,
> the other three have been straight-A students, good musicians, and
> leaders in the community. What generalization should I draw from this,
> that 75% of Blacks are hard-working and talented? We've got one kid
> who's the best jazz pianist in the department, writes A+ papers for
> classes, plays in every ensemble, accompanies 16 jazz singers, was
> elected Peer Counselor for his dorm, has a great, gentle sense of
> humor, is modest, kind, articulate, and popular. He dresses,
> creatively, a little like he's from the 'hood. His parents, I recently
> learned, were Black Panthers in the '60s, and if I ever wondered
> whether the Panthers were good guys or bad guys, I have to conclude
> that only mature, realistic, loving people could have brought up a
> young man as sterling in every way as this one. I admire him: I wasn't
> nearly so together at his age.

Respectfully, you have to admit that your experience on a campus represents an
extremely myopic view: how many Black students are in college across this
country? The ones that end up there represent a statistical extreme and elite
of the general Black population, most of whom end up with a reading level
several grades below their age.

The 'culture' Carl and I refer to is the real-life urban jungle of Black
America...you point is taken, and we should judge each human individual on a
case by case basis, but let's be reasonable and remember that statistical
judgements are the basis of our deepest prejudices: you can be as free to
feel the love as many of your fellow humans as possible, but as for me, I
will join you in this crusade, but wil not follow you into the South Side of
Chicago at 11pm to do it. It's not like Bard College.

> The idea that anyone could look at this kid and assume, because of his
> race and the way he looks and dresses, that he would be more likely to
> commit a crime than my other students just makes me sick. This kid is
> supposedly from a "culture" that "needs to pull itself up by its
> bootstraps and won't do it" - what do I do with that information? Had
> I grown up with no money in some hellhole like the Robert Taylor homes
> in Chicago, would I have started stealing and committing petty crimes
> to survive? Probably. If I were suddenly appointed a CEO at
> Halliburton and offered the chance to siphon off hundreds of millions
> into my own personal account, would I be able to resist the
> temptation? Maybe; I hope so. We're formed by our experiences and our
> situations, not our racial genes.

On this I agree. And we also have the ability to transcend them as well
(hopefully). Where are the Black leaders seriously critiqueing their own
literacy and dropout rates? Why is that always 'whitey's' fault?

And how can you take Michael Moore seriously, when he is a rascist himself:
"Stupid White Men" ? I thought you were more subtle! Clearly, these political
polarizations will get no-one anywhere, just like they won't work in the
Middle East. They only pour gasoline onto the fire. We need water.

> And when I see people characterize a race by the type of crimes or
> misdemeanors typically committed by a minority of its members, I
> always think about the crime stereotype I fall into as a white male:
>
> White males are 60,000,000 times as likely to kill 6,000,000 Jews in
> gas chambers as any other group.
>
> White males are 60,000,000,000 times as likely to use their father's
> friends in the Supreme Court to steal an election as any other group.
>
> White males are 1,000,000 times as likely to make up lies about
> fictional weapons of mass destruction to justify invading a country
> whose oil they want as any other group, etc.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir: I agree! I think assholism is ubiquitous.
And the fact that Bush and Pals are going to steal another 4 years makes me
ant to vomit. And I'm pissed that the Democrats are not as organized and
slogan-honing as the enemy.

I hope you feel better, Kyle

Cheers,
Aaron.

The democrats are a fake party to give the impression one has a choice. They
seems to have played their role for corporate america to get Stalin back in
office. They are quite well organized to do what they are told to do

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

> And I'm pissed that the Democrats are not as organized and
> slogan-honing as the enemy.
>
> I hope you feel better, Kyle
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > > Well, *you* brought up "jazz and George Clinton". If you
> > > found fault with their choices, then...?
> >
> > It's not about the particular choices, it's about making
> > them or not.
>
> Illiteracy is actually a huge problem in Oakland. I don't
> care what you read, but you've got to read something.
>
> I don't even want to say that you have to read something.
> I once read that the Hopi have stories about how reading and
> writing destroyed utopia. And I don't necessarily doubt it.
> But for better or worse we can't live together if you can't
> read. Reading confers such power to those who can do it,
> that you just don't stand a chance if you can't.
>
> -Carl

ah, now we're *really* getting at the crux of things.

it's less about cultural stereotypes than it is about
who has the power and how they got it.

-monz

> ah, now we're *really* getting at the crux of things.
>
> it's less about cultural stereotypes than it is about
> who has the power and how they got it.

Yes but if you want literacy and don't have it, you have
no one to blame but yourself. The fact is that many
families in Oakland are raising illiterate children and
it constitutes a culture, and there's no excuse for it.

-Carl

hi Aaron,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> Jon, while I'm sure everyone agrees that Sault's politics
> are icky, he didn't actually say anything derogitory towards
> Paul directly.
>
> I for one am doing my best to ignore him. I would rather
> he weren't a participant, but as long as Monz, Gene and
> others turn a blind eye to his political views, he will
> remain on the list.

i've been trying to make it clear that i do *not*
"turn a blind eye" toward Sault's politics.

i'm perfectly willing to discuss and debate them here,
on this list.

but the tuning list is not the place for that.

perhaps Sault needs a direct personal invitation to
join this list? i've sent him one, and hope he responds
by joining.

-monz

he has not replied to a single email on that list that i have sent.

monz wrote:

> hi Aaron,
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Jon, while I'm sure everyone agrees that Sault's politics
> > are icky, he didn't actually say anything derogitory towards
> > Paul directly.
> >
> > I for one am doing my best to ignore him. I would rather
> > he weren't a participant, but as long as Monz, Gene and
> > others turn a blind eye to his political views, he will
> > remain on the list.
>
> i've been trying to make it clear that i do *not*
> "turn a blind eye" toward Sault's politics.
>
> i'm perfectly willing to discuss and debate them here,
> on this list.
>
> but the tuning list is not the place for that.
>
> perhaps Sault needs a direct personal invitation to
> join this list? i've sent him one, and hope he responds
> by joining.
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

hi Kraig,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, kraig grady <kraiggrady@a...>
wrote:

> I do think that media has done what it can to
> homogenized the different black cultures in this country.
> growing up here and stranded in the watts riots in Comptom
> and years later moving to Philly , i was struck at the
> completely different situation of the blacks as well as the
> language which i was shocked to hear forfirst time. No one
> speaks like this in the west coast. They have nothing
> in common until Sony decided they did. Still there is a
> different between east and west coast rap they can seem
> to get rid of.

i didn't know you ever lived in Philly !!!!

i've been considering saying something about this ever
since Aaron described his life in the 'hood.

the population of the city of Philadelphia is now around
70% black. and that's one of the things i like about it.
i miss that "blackness" here in San Diego.

... altho i must also add that the particular neighborhood
i live in here is very diverse ethnically and culturally,
mixing not only the usual white/black/hispanic, but also
with lots of people who've come here from Africa and
southeast Asia too.

regarding the Mexican DJ who used "beaner" over the air
and got suspended ... it's interesting to me to see how
people react to my girlfriend when they meet her for the
first time.

she's from Africa, but everyone here automatically assumes
at first that she's African-*American* ... until they hear
her speak, because of course she speaks English with a
Congolese accent.

it's only at that point that others view her as being
"exotic". until then, she just looks like any other
"black woman".

labels and stereotypes ... yuck. at least i find it amusing.

one thing that i like about southern California is that
there is lots of cultural and racial mixing going on here,
and when two people from very different backgrounds have
kids, how do those kids label themselves?

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma" <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > ah, now we're *really* getting at the crux of things.
> >
> > it's less about cultural stereotypes than it is about
> > who has the power and how they got it.
>
> Yes but if you want literacy and don't have it, you have
> no one to blame but yourself. The fact is that many
> families in Oakland are raising illiterate children and
> it constitutes a culture, and there's no excuse for it.
>
> -Carl

yeah, but there are also millions of illiterate white kids
all across America.

TV is one of the big factors in this, for both black families
in Oakland and white families elsewhere.

-monz

I was going to mention this one

monz wrote:

>
>
> TV is one of the big factors in this, for both black families
> in Oakland and white families elsewhere.
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

Aaron,

> Respectfully, you have to admit that your experience on a campus
represents an
> extremely myopic view....
> The 'culture' Carl and I refer to is the real-life urban jungle of
Black
> America...you point is taken, and we should judge each human
individual on a
> case by case basis, but let's be reasonable and remember that
statistical
> judgements are the basis of our deepest prejudices: you can be as
free to
> feel the love as many of your fellow humans as possible, but as for
me, I
> will join you in this crusade, but wil not follow you into the South
Side of
> Chicago at 11pm to do it. It's not like Bard College.

Some of my students come from that real-life urban jungle. I'm not
just some academic hothouse plant, Aaron, I've worked for the Village
Voice for 17 years. I was mugged in Chicago by a young,
confused-seeming black kid whom I talked out of trying to hurt me.
I've roamed Downtown Manhattan after dark for 17 years, and never
found myself in a threatening or uncomfortable situation. I agree
there are neighborhoods I wouldn't go into after dark (though I once
carried a suitcase through Harlem after dark without incident), but
those neighborhoods are dangerous because the living conditions are
horrible and conducive to despair, not because the people who live
there are a certain color.

> Where are the Black leaders seriously critiqueing their own
> literacy and dropout rates? Why is that always 'whitey's' fault?

What do you mean, where are they? They're everywhere! You don't read
their literature because it's not directed at you. I haven't heard
black leaders "blame whitey" for their problems in 20 years. Where've
you been?

> And how can you take Michael Moore seriously, when he is a rascist
himself:
> "Stupid White Men" ? I thought you were more subtle!...

Aaron, this is really simple: it's not racist when a Black person uses
the word "nigger." It's not racist when a White person talks about
Stupid White Men. Lighten up a little, and develop a sense of irony.
Throughout that entire book, Moore makes the same point that I make
below, and which you agree with when I make it: that what powerful
white men are doing to destroy the world is a hell of a lot more
deadly than what any disempowered Blacks or other minorities could
possibly do.

Believe me Aaron, you haven't yet said a thing I didn't once believe
too. But the world is in such a divided state that all attempts to
impose your own kind of consistency on it are just not going to get
you anywhere. When powerless people criticize those in power, that's
one thing; when powerful people criticize the powerless, that's
something very different. The powerful/powerless relationship is not
symmetrical. I will criticize our college president much more freely
than I'll criticize my students, because I don't have any power over
my president, but I have the ability to devastate my students, and I
have to use that power very carefully. I will criticize those horrible
white CEOs and politicians that Michael Moore attacks (and I doubt
that you're one of the stupid white men he means, if that's any
consolation). But I won't criticize the desperate denizens of the
ghetto, even that stupid confused kid who mugged me, before walking a
mile in their shoes.

Of course everyone needs to transcend their background. I come from a
poor white trash family, and have transcended my background by leaving
behind the racism that was all around me in Texas (I grew up with
"White" and "Colored" restrooms in my elementary school), and by
refusing to any longer use statistics to blame the world's problems on
its powerless people. I've looked inside myself and seen evidence of
the same kind of white male elitism and sense of natural privilege
that makes people like Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld possible, and I'm
on the lookout to expunge it whenever it appears. I'm a white man, but
I try every day not to be one of the stupid ones.

All submitted in good humor, and because I'm too sick to be of any use
elsewhere in the world,

Cheers,

Kyle

> > And when I see people characterize a race by the type of crimes or
> > misdemeanors typically committed by a minority of its members, I
> > always think about the crime stereotype I fall into as a white male:
> >
> > White males are 60,000,000 times as likely to kill 6,000,000 Jews in
> > gas chambers as any other group.
> >
> > White males are 60,000,000,000 times as likely to use their father's
> > friends in the Supreme Court to steal an election as any other group.
> >
> > White males are 1,000,000 times as likely to make up lies about
> > fictional weapons of mass destruction to justify invading a country
> > whose oil they want as any other group, etc.
>
> Hey, you're preaching to the choir: I agree! I think assholism is
ubiquitous.
> And the fact that Bush and Pals are going to steal another 4 years
makes me
> ant to vomit. And I'm pissed that the Democrats are not as organized
and
> slogan-honing as the enemy.
>
> I hope you feel better, Kyle
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron.

> yeah, but there are also millions of illiterate white kids
> all across America.

Yeah, the "white trash" syndrome is equally dispicipating.
I've got life-long first-hand experience with it.

> TV is one of the big factors in this, for both black families
> in Oakland and white families elsewhere.

TV can be a bad influence on events but is not toxic in and
of itself. It can be used for tremendous benefit. Just the
complex moving images and sounds are good for young brains,
and good documentary and comedic content is available, if a
little scarce.

Improving literacy is pretty simple. If you touch your kids
and *talk to your kids* (as Chris Rock says) and on occasion
read to your kids to whatever extent you can, if you can at
all, your kids will wind up being at least as literate as you
and usually more. And if you can, making sure your kids go
to the provided public schools every day (or giving them
something at least as good at home) without letting them know
you think schools are another office of Whitey's repression,
would do wonders.

-Carl

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
> On Thursday 11 December 2003 02:51 am, monz wrote:
> > hi Dante,
> >
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...>
wrote:
>
> > > Did you happen to catch this other gem by him:?
> > >
> > > http://www.realnews247.com/axis_of_logic.htm
> > >
> > >
> > > Resentment v Hatred
> > >
> > >
> > > "I resent being accused of hatred. Resentment is not hatred -
> > > it is a natural response to a false accusation.
> > >
> > > I detest many Jews, meaning simply that I do not wish to
> > > socialize with them, for the simple reason that they are
> > > deliberately obnoxious - they cultivate their obnoxiousness
> > > so as to provoke dislike so they can maintain their complaints
> > > of victimization so as to play upon the consciences of
> > > those that possess such a thing and who are unaware they
> > > themselves are the victims of the Jewish game."
> >
> > yes. paul erlich emailed it to me privately.
> >
> > he's stereotyping. lots of people do it all the time.
>
> Yes, it's true. But it still does damage. But I will be the first
to admit I
> do that kind of thing, too.
>

I said "many Jews". That is not the same as "all Jews", therefore I
am not "stereotyping". Like Paul Erlich and this Dante Rosati
character, you are too quick with the ad hominem, one of the tools in
the armoury of character assassination. Just one more category of
illegitimate assassination practiced by *some* Jews.

Erlich and Rosati are perfect examples of exactly what I was talking
about.

Here's an edifying article by an admirable Jew:-
http://www.israelshamir.net/english/the%20marxists.shtml

Peter

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "John A. deLaubenfels" <jdl@a...>
wrote:

> Now as to Mr. Sault himself. I think it despicable to go running
> whining to yahoo, trying to get Paul E and others booted off.
> While I think it was inappropriate to question Mr. Sault's views on
> hot-button topics on the tuning list, the nature of the posts was
> mild.

"Mild"? I was falsely accused of serious crimes under Britain's
Incitement to Racial Hatred laws. That is libel in Britain. You do
both yourself and myself an injustice by diminishing the nature of
the vicious attack upon my character. Before you accuse me of
being "despicable" perhaps you should ask a lawyer what he would make
of it. If Paul Erlich and others would have the courage to reveal
their true names and addresses, we could find out what a British
court would make of it. Until then, you should not go playing judge
and jury. Of course, I do not expect that people whose only skill is
foaming at the mouth will have any courage to show - we shall see,
shall we not?

Peter

Pete opineth:

> I said "many Jews". That is not the same as "all Jews", therefore I
> am not "stereotyping". Like Paul Erlich and this Dante Rosati
> character, you are too quick with the ad hominem, one of the tools in
> the armoury of character assassination. Just one more category of
> illegitimate assassination practiced by *some* Jews.

But Pete, you're making your life needlessly complicated: I am deliberately
obnoxious, but I am not Jewish. So, now you have to say "I despise many
Jews, and at least one Italian-american, becuase they are deliberately
obnoxious." Wouldn't it just be easier to say "I despise obnoxious people"?
That way you precisely identify what it is about them that you despise,
without the attempt to catagorize by unrelated details. The crucial
difference here is that despising obnoxious people will usually lead only to
retiring to the countryside to research tuning issues, or perhaps fisticuffs
outside the pub after a few pints. Despising "Jews" or "Moslems" or "Blacks"
leads to things like the race hatred and murder that smothers world history
in blood.

Dante

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> Pete opineth:
>
> > I said "many Jews". That is not the same as "all Jews", therefore
I
> > am not "stereotyping". Like Paul Erlich and this Dante Rosati
> > character, you are too quick with the ad hominem, one of the
tools in
> > the armoury of character assassination. Just one more category of
> > illegitimate assassination practiced by *some* Jews.
>
> But Pete, you're making your life needlessly complicated: I am
deliberately
> obnoxious, but I am not Jewish. So, now you have to say "I despise
many
> Jews, and at least one Italian-american, becuase they are
deliberately
> obnoxious." Wouldn't it just be easier to say "I despise obnoxious
people"?
> That way you precisely identify what it is about them that you
despise,
> without the attempt to catagorize by unrelated details. The crucial
> difference here is that despising obnoxious people will usually
lead only to
> retiring to the countryside to research tuning issues, or perhaps
fisticuffs
> outside the pub after a few pints. Despising "Jews" or "Moslems"
or "Blacks"
> leads to things like the race hatred and murder that smothers world
history
> in blood.
>
> Dante

So why can't you just be an American? What's with the "Italian",
homeboy?

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
<sault@c...> wrote:

> "Mild"? I was falsely accused of serious crimes under
> Britain's Incitement to Racial Hatred laws. That is libel
> in Britain. You do both yourself and myself an injustice
> by diminishing the nature of the vicious attack upon my
> character. Before you accuse me of being "despicable"
> perhaps you should ask a lawyer what he would make of it.

i quote here the entirety of the original post by Kalle Aho
which began this whole "imbroglio":

/tuning/topicId_49383.html#49383

> From: "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...>
> Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 12:59 am
> Subject: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite?
>
>
> I googled Peter Wakefield Sault. And found this:
>
> http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/index2.htm
>
> Scroll down to see his face and a link to some
> writing about Ezra being the writer of the whole
> Old Testament blah blah...
>
> And here's some interesting information on this
> "Adelaide Institute":
>
> http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1999/245/jones.html
>
> Kalle

there is no accusation there whatsoever.

the word "Antisemite" is only used in a question
in the subject line -- a question which you still
have not answered unambiguously, despite the
numerous exhortations of many concerned members
of the tuning list.

the body of the post simply presents two links which
direct the reader to writings of yours which you have
had published on the internet, and to information about
the organization on whose website your writing appears.

> If Paul Erlich and others would have the courage to reveal
> their true names and addresses, we could find out what a
> British court would make of it. Until then, you should not
> go playing judge and jury. Of course, I do not expect that
> people whose only skill is foaming at the mouth will have
> any courage to show - we shall see, shall we not?
>
> Peter

you feel attacked, and so you are responding defensively.

but the belligerency of your stance is causing others to
draw the conclusion, which may indeed be false, that you
are guilty of that of which you are being accused.

i suggest that you hereafter refrain from any threats
of lawsuits, requests for telephone numbers and addresses,
etc., and simply try as communicatively as possible to
explain your positions on the questions being asked to you.

if there *have* been actual accusations hurled at you
since Kalle's post, then by all means it is in your
interest to cite them ... i'm not going to search for them.

i'm just trying to do whatever i can think of to defuse
the tense situation which has developed within, and
divided, the tuning community since you made your appearance.

-monz

hi Dante,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

> But Pete, you're making your life needlessly complicated:
> I am deliberately obnoxious, but I am not Jewish. So, now
> you have to say "I despise many Jews, and at least one
> Italian-american, becuase they are deliberately obnoxious."

uh-oh ... do i now have to watch out lest i be put into
some new hate-crime category? (being Italian-american myself)

;-)

> Wouldn't it just be easier to say "I despise obnoxious people"?
> That way you precisely identify what it is about them that you
> despise, without the attempt to catagorize by unrelated details.

i love it! reminds me of one of my favorite bumper-stickers,
which i saw decades ago and never forgot:

"STUPID PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BREED"

> The crucial difference here is that despising obnoxious
> people will usually lead only to retiring to the countryside
> to research tuning issues, or perhaps fisticuffs outside
> the pub after a few pints. Despising "Jews" or "Moslems"
> or "Blacks" leads to things like the race hatred and murder
> that smothers world history in blood.

eloquently said, Dante. (applause from this corner of cyberspace)

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

>
> i'm just trying to do whatever i can think of to defuse
> the tense situation which has developed within, and
> divided, the tuning community since you made your appearance.
>
>
>
> -monz

You'll get nowhere with me until you stop playing the game of blaming
the victim.

On Saturday 13 December 2003 03:35 pm, kylegann1955 wrote:
> Aaron,
> Some of my students come from that real-life urban jungle. I'm not
> just some academic hothouse plant, Aaron, I've worked for the Village
> Voice for 17 years. I was mugged in Chicago by a young,
> confused-seeming black kid whom I talked out of trying to hurt me.
> I've roamed Downtown Manhattan after dark for 17 years, and never
> found myself in a threatening or uncomfortable situation. I agree
> there are neighborhoods I wouldn't go into after dark (though I once
> carried a suitcase through Harlem after dark without incident), but
> those neighborhoods are dangerous because the living conditions are
> horrible and conducive to despair, not because the people who live
> there are a certain color.

True enough, but I would wager that there are signs within the black culture
that I look for to judge (perhaps inaccurately, but I don't care, for It's my
safety at hand) the 'safety' of a given situation. Like gang skull caps, etc.

If these people who dress and talk the talk and walk the walk want to be taken
for constructive members of society, let them change their own behaviors and
allay the fears of the rest of us that the are up to no good.

>
> > Where are the Black leaders seriously critiqueing their own
> > literacy and dropout rates? Why is that always 'whitey's' fault?
>
> What do you mean, where are they? They're everywhere! You don't read
> their literature because it's not directed at you. I haven't heard
> black leaders "blame whitey" for their problems in 20 years. Where've
> you been?

I was wondering the same regarding your experience....do have any specific
reference? I can think of only one black college professor in recent times
(sorry, I don't remember his last name) who believed affirmative action was
potentially harmful, ultimately, for his black students.

A friend recently told me that there are more vacant college professorship
positions open for the study of, get this: hip-hop, than there are for
medieval music history. If you ask me, the whole educational trend towards
killing the 'dead white male' is disgusting and completely ill-thought out.
The political left, or one segment of it, is actively trying to kill the idea
of a Western Canon. I will never be for any such nonsense. I somtimes think
I'd rather have Bush/Cheney and decent educational standards than all the
'good democrats', and the current trends continue in all their P.C. glory.

> > And how can you take Michael Moore seriously, when he is a rascist
>
> himself:
> > "Stupid White Men" ? I thought you were more subtle!...
>
> Aaron, this is really simple: it's not racist when a Black person uses
> the word "nigger." It's not racist when a White person talks about
> Stupid White Men. Lighten up a little, and develop a sense of irony.
> Throughout that entire book, Moore makes the same point that I make
> below, and which you agree with when I make it: that what powerful
> white men are doing to destroy the world is a hell of a lot more
> deadly than what any disempowered Blacks or other minorities could
> possibly do.

True. But also, I guess it depends on the definition of 'destroy the world'.
I agree that the corporate right is more literally capable of the literal
sense of this, but I would say that black culture has enormous power over its
own tendencies, and it has consistently chosen self-destruction, and decay in
general, of family, of any sense of collective culture in a high sense
(whither the musicianship of any of the jazz artists of the harlem
renaissance?) No. what do we have? Puff Daddy. Snoop Dog. Yes there are still
great jazz artists and black role models: Marsalis, Jordan.

However, as statistics have shown, the great majority of blacks have resisted
literacy and self-empowerment. The question I ask is: here is the
sef-accountability?

> Believe me Aaron, you haven't yet said a thing I didn't once believe
> too. But the world is in such a divided state that all attempts to
> impose your own kind of consistency on it are just not going to get
> you anywhere. When powerless people criticize those in power, that's
> one thing; when powerful people criticize the powerless, that's
> something very different. The powerful/powerless relationship is not
> symmetrical. I will criticize our college president much more freely
> than I'll criticize my students, because I don't have any power over
> my president, but I have the ability to devastate my students, and I
> have to use that power very carefully. I will criticize those horrible
> white CEOs and politicians that Michael Moore attacks (and I doubt
> that you're one of the stupid white men he means, if that's any
> consolation). But I won't criticize the desperate denizens of the
> ghetto, even that stupid confused kid who mugged me, before walking a
> mile in their shoes.

Good points. I agree....I still get the feeling the Moore stirs up the shit
more than he solves any deep problems.

> Of course everyone needs to transcend their background. I come from a
> poor white trash family, and have transcended my background by leaving
> behind the racism that was all around me in Texas (I grew up with
> "White" and "Colored" restrooms in my elementary school), and by
> refusing to any longer use statistics to blame the world's problems on
> its powerless people. I've looked inside myself and seen evidence of
> the same kind of white male elitism and sense of natural privilege
> that makes people like Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld possible, and I'm
> on the lookout to expunge it whenever it appears. I'm a white man, but
> I try every day not to be one of the stupid ones.

All good points. I certainly am going to do my part and vote for the leading
opposition to Bush, which looks more and more like it will be Dean?

Cheers,
Aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
<sault@c...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> >
> > i'm just trying to do whatever i can think of to defuse
> > the tense situation which has developed within, and
> > divided, the tuning community since you made your appearance.
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> You'll get nowhere with me until you stop playing the
> game of blaming the victim.

OK, now you're making an accusation at me, and i don't
know exactly what you mean.

please clarify by telling me:

1) who is the victim, and
2) how i am blaming said victim

thanks.

and to clarify to you: i'm not playing any game.

when i want to do that, i prefer chess, monopoly, craps,
or Age of Empires.

-monz

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
> <sault@c...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > i'm just trying to do whatever i can think of to defuse
> > > the tense situation which has developed within, and
> > > divided, the tuning community since you made your appearance.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> >
> > You'll get nowhere with me until you stop playing the
> > game of blaming the victim.
>
>
> OK, now you're making an accusation at me, and i don't
> know exactly what you mean.
>
> please clarify by telling me:
>
> 1) who is the victim, and
> 2) how i am blaming said victim
>
> thanks.
>
>
>
> and to clarify to you: i'm not playing any game.
>
> when i want to do that, i prefer chess, monopoly, craps,
> or Age of Empires.
>
>
>
> -monz

You know exactly what I'm talking about and you *are* playing a game.

I'm a big fan of NWH.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Aaron,

> If these people who dress and talk the talk and walk the walk want
to be taken
> for constructive members of society, let them change their own
behaviors and
> allay the fears of the rest of us that they are up to no good.

Well, agreed. I remember once in Manhattan coming out of a bank lobby
ATM at night with a female friend and being startled by a huge,
muscular Black guy in the most intimidating militant attire. He knew
exactly how threatening he looked, and grinned at us, said, "It's OK,"
and walked on past.

> > > Where are the Black leaders seriously critiqueing their own
> > > literacy and dropout rates? Why is that always 'whitey's' fault?
> >
> > What do you mean, where are they? They're everywhere! You don't read
> > their literature because it's not directed at you. I haven't heard
> > black leaders "blame whitey" for their problems in 20 years. Where've
> > you been?
>
> I was wondering the same regarding your experience....do have any
specific
> reference? I can think of only one black college professor in recent
times
> (sorry, I don't remember his last name) who believed affirmative
action was
> potentially harmful, ultimately, for his black students.

Again, if I weren't now doubly stranded by the head cold and the
beginnings of an estimated 20 inches of snow, I'd go out and try to
find some books. I do remember some Black leaders speaking against
affirmative action during the recent U. of Mich. controversy, and of
course Clarence Thomas (not my favorite Supreme Court judge) has
spoken against it, I believe. I happen to be one of those people who
believe that affirmative action still has a role to play, but I'll
admit it's a very complex issue with no clear winning side.

> A friend recently told me that there are more vacant college
professorship
> positions open for the study of, get this: hip-hop, than there are for
> medieval music history. If you ask me, the whole educational trend
towards
> killing the 'dead white male' is disgusting and completely
ill-thought out.
> The political left, or one segment of it, is actively trying to kill
the idea
> of a Western Canon. I will never be for any such nonsense. I
somtimes think
> I'd rather have Bush/Cheney and decent educational standards than
all the
> 'good democrats', and the current trends continue in all their P.C.
glory.

Omit the Bush/Cheney line, and the President of my college would bless
you for your thoughts. I would single out one phrase of yours as being
crucial: The political left, OR ONE SEGMENT OF IT, is actively trying
to kill the idea of a Western Canon. The dead white male isn't in any
serious danger of extinction at my college, nor at any college I know
of. But college professors overwhelmingly vote Democrat (I remember
that in the Carter/Reagan election, Carter got 96% among people with
graduate degrees), and the Right jumps on every cockamamie-sounding
notion proposed by an ultraliberal professor and pretends that it's
representative of academia in general, hoping thereby to discredit all
us left-leaning academics. There may be a segment of academia truly
trying to overturn the "canon," if indeed such an entity exists, but
if so they don't seem to mind too much the fact that they're not
getting anywhere.

I'm a perfect example. In my work I question the very premises of
Western tuning itself. Admit with me that the Italian Renaissance
theorists were wrong in saying "no" to the seventh harmonic, and Bach,
Mozart, and Beethoven might just go flying out the window. So I teach
that, and then in my other theory classes I teach - Bach, Mozart, and
Beethoven. It wouldn't be too difficult for some rightwinger to glom
onto my work and claim that I'm trying to destroy the canon by
undermining the legitimacy of its tuning system. Not as tempting in my
case, since my motivations aren't explicitly multicultural. The canon
needs to continually be challenged and reexamined and attacked, and
academia is the right place to do that, but only a handful of radicals
- and I only read about them, I've never met one - actually look
forward to a canonless future.

And of course there are more professorships open in hip-hop than in
medieval music: we turn out more medieval scholars than we could
possibly know what to do with, whereas pop music studies is a
comparatively new field that students are asking for, but that hasn't
attracted many grad students yet. Whether it's more than just a fad,
time will tell. But this is how rightwing propaganda misrepresents
academia: twisting the hip-hop/medieval ratio to make it look like we
value hip-hop more than medieval, when it's really the other way around.

One significant fact to keep in mind: the term "politically correct"
was coined by liberals to make fun of other liberals who seemed too
earnest or humorless or unrealistic. I remember when it happened, and
the first uses of the term in the Village Voice. Then Republicans
picked up the term and started painting the entire Left as p.c. Within
every segment of academia I know about, the p.c. people constitute a
negligible fringe. At Bard we like to think we're the most liberal
college around except for Hampshire, right? The other day it came out
that we haven't taught an Italian Renaissance history course for
years. The President flew into a rage. The Dean sent out angry memos
calling an emergency meeting. The history department was roundly
chastised, and guiltily accepted its punishment. There will be an
Italian Renaissance course next year.

In other words, don't believe what the media and rightwing pundits say
about academia. It is a deeply conservative force, and can be trusted
to preserve our cultural history and pass it on to younger
generations. The educated class represents a profound threat to the
fascist Right - history is ultimately written by academics, after all
- and they will use any means necessary to discredit us. The 2000 vote
in the Bard College precinct was: Gore, 243; Nader, 160; Bush, 80. Of
COURSE we must all be whackos.

And congratulations to both of us for being able to keep discussion on
an elevated level in the midst of chaos.

Cheers,

Kyle

Kyle,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "kylegann1955" <kgann@e...> wrote:
> And congratulations to both of us for being able to keep
> discussion on an elevated level in the midst of chaos.

Yeah, how *do* you guys do that? I either fire off impassioned proto-rants, or sit on my hands to avoid typing responses! :) Anyhow, I/we do appreciate when people answer each other in respectful, thoughtful manners. Really.

Cheers,
Jon

> I'm a big fan of NWH.
>
> --
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db

Did you mean NWA?

-C.

> > And congratulations to both of us for being able to keep
> > discussion on an elevated level in the midst of chaos.
>
> Yeah, how *do* you guys do that? I either fire off impassioned
>proto-rants, or sit on my hands to avoid typing responses! :)
>Anyhow, I/we do appreciate when people answer each other in
>respectful, thoughtful manners. Really.

And congratulations also to Johnny Reinhard, who despite
having full carte blanch to let 'er rip has not gone there!

-Carl

hi Peter,

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
<sault@c...> wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault"
> > <sault@c...> wrote:
> > > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > i'm just trying to do whatever i can think of to defuse
> > > > the tense situation which has developed within, and
> > > > divided, the tuning community since you made your appearance.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -monz
> > >
> > > You'll get nowhere with me until you stop playing the
> > > game of blaming the victim.
> >
> >
> > OK, now you're making an accusation at me, and i don't
> > know exactly what you mean.
> >
> > please clarify by telling me:
> >
> > 1) who is the victim, and
> > 2) how i am blaming said victim
> >
> > thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > and to clarify to you: i'm not playing any game.
> >
> > when i want to do that, i prefer chess, monopoly, craps,
> > or Age of Empires.
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> You know exactly what I'm talking about and you *are*
> playing a game.

well, OK, if you refuse to accept my sincerity, and
insist on accusing me without explanation of something
about which i've requested clarification, then you've
just effectively shut down all communication with me
on this.

so be it. there are others who *are* interested in
having a discourse with me, so i'll talk to them.

-monz

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>I'm a big fan of NWH.
>>
>>-- >>* David Beardsley
>>* microtonal guitar
>>* http://biink.com/db
>> >>
>
>Did you mean NWA?
>
No.

With hats.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

> >>I'm a big fan of NWH.
> >
> >Did you mean NWA?
>
> No.
>
> With hats.

http://www.niggazwithhats.com/

Cool, I'll check it out.

-C.

Carl Lumma wrote:

>>>>I'm a big fan of NWH.
>>>> >>>>
>>>Did you mean NWA?
>>> >>>
>>No.
>>
>>With hats.
>> >>
>
>http://www.niggazwithhats.com/
>
>Cool, I'll check it out.
>
Those are the guys....profound social commentary.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

On Sunday 14 December 2003 11:23 am, kylegann1955 wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> > If these people who dress and talk the talk and walk the walk want
>
> to be taken
>
> > for constructive members of society, let them change their own
>
> behaviors and
>
> > allay the fears of the rest of us that they are up to no good.
>
> Well, agreed. I remember once in Manhattan coming out of a bank lobby
> ATM at night with a female friend and being startled by a huge,
> muscular Black guy in the most intimidating militant attire. He knew
> exactly how threatening he looked, and grinned at us, said, "It's OK,"
> and walked on past.

Yikes!

It's the gang attire that I watch for...skull caps, jeans that show the ass
crack...neighborhood baseball hats.

> > > > Where are the Black leaders seriously critiqueing their own
> > > > literacy and dropout rates? Why is that always 'whitey's' fault?
> > >
> > > What do you mean, where are they? They're everywhere! You don't read
> > > their literature because it's not directed at you. I haven't heard
> > > black leaders "blame whitey" for their problems in 20 years. Where've
> > > you been?
> >
> > I was wondering the same regarding your experience....do have any
>
> specific
>
> > reference? I can think of only one black college professor in recent
>
> times
>
> > (sorry, I don't remember his last name) who believed affirmative
>
> action was
>
> > potentially harmful, ultimately, for his black students.
>
> Again, if I weren't now doubly stranded by the head cold and the
> beginnings of an estimated 20 inches of snow, I'd go out and try to
> find some books. I do remember some Black leaders speaking against
> affirmative action during the recent U. of Mich. controversy, and of
> course Clarence Thomas (not my favorite Supreme Court judge) has
> spoken against it, I believe. I happen to be one of those people who
> believe that affirmative action still has a role to play, but I'll
> admit it's a very complex issue with no clear winning side.

I'll have to check it out.

> > A friend recently told me that there are more vacant college
>
> professorship
>
> > positions open for the study of, get this: hip-hop, than there are for
> > medieval music history. If you ask me, the whole educational trend
>
> towards
>
> > killing the 'dead white male' is disgusting and completely
>
> ill-thought out.
>
> > The political left, or one segment of it, is actively trying to kill
>
> the idea
>
> > of a Western Canon. I will never be for any such nonsense. I
>
> somtimes think
>
> > I'd rather have Bush/Cheney and decent educational standards than
>
> all the
>
> > 'good democrats', and the current trends continue in all their P.C.
>
> glory.
>
> Omit the Bush/Cheney line, and the President of my college would bless
> you for your thoughts. I would single out one phrase of yours as being
> crucial: The political left, OR ONE SEGMENT OF IT, is actively trying
> to kill the idea of a Western Canon. The dead white male isn't in any
> serious danger of extinction at my college, nor at any college I know
> of. But college professors overwhelmingly vote Democrat (I remember
> that in the Carter/Reagan election, Carter got 96% among people with
> graduate degrees), and the Right jumps on every cockamamie-sounding
> notion proposed by an ultraliberal professor and pretends that it's
> representative of academia in general, hoping thereby to discredit all
> us left-leaning academics. There may be a segment of academia truly
> trying to overturn the "canon," if indeed such an entity exists, but
> if so they don't seem to mind too much the fact that they're not
> getting anywhere.
>
> I'm a perfect example. In my work I question the very premises of
> Western tuning itself. Admit with me that the Italian Renaissance
> theorists were wrong in saying "no" to the seventh harmonic, and Bach,
> Mozart, and Beethoven might just go flying out the window. So I teach
> that, and then in my other theory classes I teach - Bach, Mozart, and
> Beethoven.

I don't doubt YOU Kyle-I'm famiiliar with you stance, similar to mine, let's
learn from the past, know it well, use it and move on in a LIVING tradition.
All for it, I am, as are you!

What I reject is the idea that the masters are 'dead white males' with nothing
relevant to teach us. I have an ex-friend (he insulted me by not showing up
for my wedding) who used to actively mock all 'dead white males'. Of course,
he probably thought I was a 'dead white male' because I was straight and a
bit to the right of his radically left politics.

My wife relate a story about a feminist professor who was criticizing
Shakespeare entirely from a post-modern feminist perspective. She
irresponsively said things to the effect that Shakespeare had nothing to
teach us because he was a misogynist. Shakespeare!!!!!

Kyle, you may think this stuff doesn't go on, but it does, maybe less than I
think, but it's unforgivable and irresponsible to inject one's own political
propaganda on the past great works and authors of the Western Canon.

> It wouldn't be too difficult for some rightwinger to glom
> onto my work and claim that I'm trying to destroy the canon by
> undermining the legitimacy of its tuning system. Not as tempting in my
> case, since my motivations aren't explicitly multicultural. The canon
> needs to continually be challenged and reexamined and attacked, and
> academia is the right place to do that, but only a handful of radicals
> - and I only read about them, I've never met one - actually look
> forward to a canonless future.

Well, the fact that they DO exist is as troubling to me as the fact that
die-hard neo-nazi fascists exist.

> And of course there are more professorships open in hip-hop than in
> medieval music: we turn out more medieval scholars than we could
> possibly know what to do with, whereas pop music studies is a
> comparatively new field that students are asking for, but that hasn't
> attracted many grad students yet.

I would question the economic motive behind this: the schools need to attract
students to make money, so they offer courses in hip-hop. I think I agree
with you, but think that your reasoning is upside-down! (I could be wrong,
but I do think the dollar is always a safe place to start examining cause and
effect in American society in general)

> Whether it's more than just a fad,
> time will tell. But this is how rightwing propaganda misrepresents
> academia: twisting the hip-hop/medieval ratio to make it look like we
> value hip-hop more than medieval, when it's really the other way around.

Record sales data would roundly reject your view....but if you just mean
academia, not society at large, I'm not certain. I don't even know, honestly,
how I would begin to measure the subjective, collective academic interest
meter!

> One significant fact to keep in mind: the term "politically correct"
> was coined by liberals to make fun of other liberals who seemed too
> earnest or humorless or unrealistic. I remember when it happened, and
> the first uses of the term in the Village Voice. Then Republicans
> picked up the term and started painting the entire Left as p.c. Within
> every segment of academia I know about, the p.c. people constitute a
> negligible fringe. At Bard we like to think we're the most liberal
> college around except for Hampshire, right? The other day it came out
> that we haven't taught an Italian Renaissance history course for
> years. The President flew into a rage. The Dean sent out angry memos
> calling an emergency meeting. The history department was roundly
> chastised, and guiltily accepted its punishment. There will be an
> Italian Renaissance course next year.

I would be as enraged as your president. Good for him! A people without a
collective sense of past culture are reduced to Joe Sixpack Barbarians...

> In other words, don't believe what the media and rightwing pundits say
> about academia. It is a deeply conservative force, and can be trusted
> to preserve our cultural history and pass it on to younger
> generations. The educated class represents a profound threat to the
> fascist Right - history is ultimately written by academics, after all
> - and they will use any means necessary to discredit us. The 2000 vote
> in the Bard College precinct was: Gore, 243; Nader, 160; Bush, 80. Of
> COURSE we must all be whackos.

I'm still mad about Nadar fucking it up for Gore. I tried to convince Nadar
voters that he wouldn't win, and they would end up with Bush. The most
radical of them felt that Dubbyah and Gore weren't far apart. They are nuts.

> And congratulations to both of us for being able to keep discussion on
> an elevated level in the midst of chaos.

<Collective Back Patting all around> ;)

Best, and hope you are feeling better,
Aaron.

>
>
>
> Meta Tuning meta-info:
>
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> metatuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Web page is http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/metatuning/
>
> To post to the list, send to
> metatuning@yahoogroups.com
>
> You don't have to be a member to post.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

Gore proposed a larger military budget than Bush did. This made it impossible for
me to vote for him. He also lost his own state and in Florida refused to let an
investigation into blacks being denied the vote in Florida proceed. Nader did not
fuck it up for Gore. Gore did and if i had to do it over again cause i would do
the same thing.He really is not much different than Colin Powell

"Aaron K. Johnson" wrote:

>
>
> I'm still mad about Nadar fucking it up for Gore. I tried to convince Nadar
> voters that he wouldn't win, and they would end up with Bush. The most
> radical of them felt that Dubbyah and Gore weren't far apart. They are nuts.
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> True enough, but I would wager that there are signs within the
black culture
> that I look for to judge (perhaps inaccurately, but I don't care,
for It's my
> safety at hand) the 'safety' of a given situation. Like gang skull
caps, etc.

It could be your safety at hand, or it could be the opportunity to
defuse fear and build a friendly bridge. Approach it with the latter
attitude, and you may be surprised how much understanding can be
achieved in both directions.

On Tuesday 06 January 2004 03:04 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > True enough, but I would wager that there are signs within the
>
> black culture
>
> > that I look for to judge (perhaps inaccurately, but I don't care,
>
> for It's my
>
> > safety at hand) the 'safety' of a given situation. Like gang skull
>
> caps, etc.
>
> It could be your safety at hand, or it could be the opportunity to
> defuse fear and build a friendly bridge. Approach it with the latter
> attitude, and you may be surprised how much understanding can be
> achieved in both directions.

Maybe..it's not really been my experience, though. I got lots of scouls when I
lived in Rogers Park for looking as white as I do.

So, I ignore such ignorance.

-aaron.

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
> On Tuesday 06 January 2004 03:04 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson"
<akjmicro@c...>
> >
> > wrote:
> > > True enough, but I would wager that there are signs within the
> >
> > black culture
> >
> > > that I look for to judge (perhaps inaccurately, but I don't
care,
> >
> > for It's my
> >
> > > safety at hand) the 'safety' of a given situation. Like gang
skull
> >
> > caps, etc.
> >
> > It could be your safety at hand, or it could be the opportunity to
> > defuse fear and build a friendly bridge. Approach it with the
latter
> > attitude, and you may be surprised how much understanding can be
> > achieved in both directions.
>
> Maybe..it's not really been my experience, though. I got lots of
scouls when I
> lived in Rogers Park for looking as white as I do.
>
> So, I ignore such ignorance.
>
> -aaron.

The scowls, or my suggestions?

On Wednesday 07 January 2004 11:24 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
>
> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 06 January 2004 03:04 pm, Paul Erlich wrote:
> > > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson"
>
> <akjmicro@c...>
>
> > > wrote:
> > > > True enough, but I would wager that there are signs within the
> > >
> > > black culture
> > >
> > > > that I look for to judge (perhaps inaccurately, but I don't
>
> care,
>
> > > for It's my
> > >
> > > > safety at hand) the 'safety' of a given situation. Like gang
>
> skull
>
> > > caps, etc.
> > >
> > > It could be your safety at hand, or it could be the opportunity to
> > > defuse fear and build a friendly bridge. Approach it with the
>
> latter
>
> > > attitude, and you may be surprised how much understanding can be
> > > achieved in both directions.
> >
> > Maybe..it's not really been my experience, though. I got lots of
>
> scouls when I
>
> > lived in Rogers Park for looking as white as I do.
> >
> > So, I ignore such ignorance.
> >
> > -aaron.
>
> The scowls, or my suggestions?

NO, no no, the *scowls* ;)

-Aaron.