Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite?

I googled Peter Wakefield Sault. And found this:

http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/index2.htm

Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...

And here's some interesting information on this "Adelaide Institute":

http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1999/245/jones.html

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> I googled Peter Wakefield Sault. And found this:
>
> http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/index2.htm
>
> Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
>
> And here's some interesting information on this "Adelaide
Institute":
>
> http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1999/245/jones.html
>
> Kalle

I would advise you that unfounded accusations of anti-semitism are
libelous in British law. Are you by any chance resident in Britain? I
sincerely hope you are. Meanwhile I will be submitting a complaint to
your ISP.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> > I googled Peter Wakefield Sault. And found this:
> >
> > http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/index2.htm
> >
> > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
> >
> > And here's some interesting information on this "Adelaide
> Institute":
> >
> > http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1999/245/jones.html
> >
> > Kalle
>
> I would advise you that unfounded accusations of anti-semitism are
> libelous in British law. Are you by any chance resident in Britain?
I
> sincerely hope you are. Meanwhile I will be submitting a complaint
to
> your ISP.

Hello, Peter

I haven't accused you of anything. I just raised a question whether
you might be an antisemite. Would you explain your association
with "Adelaide Institute"?

And by the way, I live in Finland.

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> > I googled Peter Wakefield Sault. And found this:
> >
> > http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/index2.htm
> >
> > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
> >
> > And here's some interesting information on this "Adelaide
> Institute":
> >
> > http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1999/245/jones.html
> >
> > Kalle
>
> So glad to know I've been talking to someone who believes my people
> practice child cannibalism, etc.

You are committing libel under British law and I will be submitting a
complaint to your ISP. Are you a british resident?

>> > I googled Peter Wakefield Sault. And found this:
>> >
>> > http://www.adelaideinstitute.org/index2.htm
>> >
>> > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
>> > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
>> >
>> > And here's some interesting information on this "Adelaide
>> Institute":
>> >
>> > http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1999/245/jones.html
>> >
>> > Kalle
>>
>> So glad to know I've been talking to someone who believes my people
>> practice child cannibalism, etc.

Whoa!?!! I don't see that on any of these pages, but that's
irrelevant. We do not call people out on this list for issues
unrelated to music or their remarks here.

>You are committing libel under British law and I will be submitting a
>complaint to your ISP. Are you a british resident?

Ok, ok, the list has been experiencing very heavy volume and perhaps
it's a good idea for us to take a step back. This list is about
tuning, and music, and not about antisemitism or racism or anything
else. If someone makes an anti-semitic remark here, he/she should be
kicked off and that's it, without any fanfare that he/she is an
antisemite. If someone does not make an antisemitic remark here,
and Peter most certainly did not, then indeed I consider remarks such
as those by Kalle and Paul quoted above to be equally inflammatory.
Please do not post them here! Shame on you both, Kalle and Paul.

-Carl

Paul

Your e-mail address is hidden so I cannot discover your ISP. However,
I have reported you to Yahoo! Perhaps you did not realize what you
were doing but since the time of Hammurabi the principle has been
established that ignorance of the law is no excuse. I have demanded
that at the very least your post should be removed. I also feel that
an apology would be in order, not just to me but to the group as a
whole.

Peter

Kalle

I have reported you both to your ISP and to Yahoo! Putting a question
mark next to the offending word does not diminish its import and as I
have told Paul Erlich, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I have demanded that Yahoo! removing the offending threads. I would
also suggest that you owe both me and the group as a whole an apology.

And no, you may not enquire after my association with Adelaide
Institute. You should have (a) thought of that before posting the
question and (b) submitted the question to my private e-mail address
which is openly available.

Peter

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:
> Kalle
>
> I have reported you both to your ISP and to Yahoo!

My ISP? Internet Service Provider? Well, that has nothing to do with
my email address.

> Putting a question
> mark next to the offending word does not diminish its import and as
I
> have told Paul Erlich, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

So you just decided that I offended you. To me a question mark makes
a difference.

> I have demanded that Yahoo! removing the offending threads. I would
> also suggest that you owe both me and the group as a whole an
apology.

Why? For asking you whether you are an antisemite? For me (if not to
Carl) it makes a lot of difference if you are/aren't an antisemite.

> And no, you may not enquire after my association with Adelaide
> Institute. You should have (a) thought of that before posting the
> question and (b) submitted the question to my private e-mail
address
> which is openly available.

Fair enough. For that I apologize.

Kalle

Kalle,

>Why? For asking you whether you are an antisemite? For me (if not to
>Carl) it makes a lot of difference if you are/aren't an antisemite.

Who is/isn't an antisemite? Who is/isn't a communist? Labeling
people by their ideals... ideals can change, and how do you even know
what others think? Law is based on action, unless you're Stalin or
McCarthy.

I had thought thoughtcrime had been thoroughly discredited. Ideas
need to be free. It's the only way the right ideas can win out by
their own merit, without being imposed from the outside.

We've always been friends here, and we should have no need to fear
that racist ideas will ever find an ear among us. For the same
reasons we should not be phoning John Ashcroft.

Peter, legal action is a bit hasty, don't you think?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Kalle,
>
> >Why? For asking you whether you are an antisemite? For me (if not
to
> >Carl) it makes a lot of difference if you are/aren't an antisemite.
>
> Who is/isn't an antisemite? Who is/isn't a communist? Labeling
> people by their ideals... ideals can change, and how do you even
know
> what others think? Law is based on action, unless you're Stalin or
> McCarthy.
>
> I had thought thoughtcrime had been thoroughly discredited. Ideas
> need to be free. It's the only way the right ideas can win out by
> their own merit, without being imposed from the outside.
>
> We've always been friends here, and we should have no need to fear
> that racist ideas will ever find an ear among us. For the same
> reasons we should not be phoning John Ashcroft.
>
> Peter, legal action is a bit hasty, don't you think?
>
> -Carl

Hi, Carl

I am all for freedom of speech, information and opinion. So I don't
want to be sued for asking a question.

Kalle

> i have to say that i agree with everything that Sault says
> in his response to Dr. Countess.

I'm going to go shoot myself now.

>
> I had thought thoughtcrime had been thoroughly discredited. Ideas
> need to be free. It's the only way the right ideas can win out by
> their own merit, without being imposed from the outside.
>
> We've always been friends here, and we should have no need to fear
> that racist ideas will ever find an ear among us. For the same
> reasons we should not be phoning John Ashcroft.
>
> Peter, legal action is a bit hasty, don't you think?
>
> -Carl

Not at all. They deserve it. They falsely accused me of a serious
crime under Britain's Incitement to Racial Hatred Act, for no better
reason than that they were losing an argument over musicology. I
trust everyone here has benefited from the education that these guys
have provided about themselves.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > i have to say that i agree with everything that Sault says
> > in his response to Dr. Countess.
>
> I'm going to go shoot myself now.

Aw! Don't do that Dante - you'll spoil the carpet. Go look at this -
http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/index.html?
keywords=Bad+taste&nav_src=more_on

That should cheer you up no end.

> Not at all. They deserve it. They falsely accused me of a serious
> crime under Britain's Incitement to Racial Hatred Act, for no
better
> reason than that they were losing an argument over musicology. I
> trust everyone here has benefited from the education that these
guys
> have provided about themselves.

I haven't accused you of anything or under anything. And I haven't
been engaged in any musicological debate with you. I merely asked a
question about you even if an offending one. I don't know about any
law that prohibits that. And I think your refusal to explain your
association with Adelaide Institute is quite telling of your
character too.

Kalle

I don't get it. Nevermind.

So, Pete: do you actually believe that the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"
is real?

just wondering...

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wakefield Sault [mailto:sault@cyberware.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 2:20 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite? - Dante
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > > i have to say that i agree with everything that Sault says
> > > in his response to Dr. Countess.
> >
> > I'm going to go shoot myself now.
>
> Aw! Don't do that Dante - you'll spoil the carpet. Go look at this -
> http://www.ananova.com/entertainment/index.html?
> keywords=Bad+taste&nav_src=more_on
>
> That should cheer you up no end.
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> I don't get it. Nevermind.
>
> So, Pete: do you actually believe that the "Protocols of the Elders
of Zion"
> is real?
>
> just wondering...
>
> Dante
>

There really is a book called 'The Protocols of The Learned Elders of
Zion'. You can read it at http://aztlan.net/protocols.htm

Peter

Thats not the question, Peter, and you know it. Your remarks on that
Adelaide page imply that you believe that this document is what it pretends
to be, rather than a forgery. Is that correct?

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wakefield Sault [mailto:sault@cyberware.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 6:21 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite? - Dante
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > I don't get it. Nevermind.
> >
> > So, Pete: do you actually believe that the "Protocols of the Elders
> of Zion"
> > is real?
> >
> > just wondering...
> >
> > Dante
> >
>
> There really is a book called 'The Protocols of The Learned Elders of
> Zion'. You can read it at http://aztlan.net/protocols.htm
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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>
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>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> Thats not the question, Peter, and you know it. Your remarks on that
> Adelaide page imply that you believe that this document is what it
pretends
> to be, rather than a forgery. Is that correct?
>
> Dante

Which remarks exactly are you referring to, Dante?

"It's a bit like claiming that the 'Protocols' is a forgery in order to
avoid discussion of the contents."

"Unlike the 'Protocols' the entire Old Testament is a proven forgery created
by some Babylonian Jew by the name of Ezra."

"My purpose was to present a contrast to the claim that the 'Protocols of
the Learned Elders of Zion' is a forgery."

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wakefield Sault [mailto:sault@cyberware.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:00 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite? - Dante
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > Thats not the question, Peter, and you know it. Your remarks on that
> > Adelaide page imply that you believe that this document is what it
> pretends
> > to be, rather than a forgery. Is that correct?
> >
> > Dante
>
> Which remarks exactly are you referring to, Dante?
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> "It's a bit like claiming that the 'Protocols' is a forgery in
order to
> avoid discussion of the contents."
>
> "Unlike the 'Protocols' the entire Old Testament is a proven
forgery created
> by some Babylonian Jew by the name of Ezra."
>
> "My purpose was to present a contrast to the claim that
the 'Protocols of
> the Learned Elders of Zion' is a forgery."
>

What evidence do you have that the 'Protocols' is a forgery?

The origins of this forgery are well documented (see links), but besides
that, the fact that this document is taken seriously only by nazis,
neo-nazis, islamic fundies, Xtian fundies, and other people with
single-digit IQs, might give one a hint as to its provenance.

Here's some other info:

http://ddickerson.igc.org/protocols.html
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/protocols.htm
http://www3.baylor.edu/~Charles_Kemp/zz9.htm
https://mail.lsit.ucsb.edu/pipermail/gordon-newspost/2002-May/002500.html

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wakefield Sault [mailto:sault@cyberware.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 7:15 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite? - Dante
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > "It's a bit like claiming that the 'Protocols' is a forgery in
> order to
> > avoid discussion of the contents."
> >
> > "Unlike the 'Protocols' the entire Old Testament is a proven
> forgery created
> > by some Babylonian Jew by the name of Ezra."
> >
> > "My purpose was to present a contrast to the claim that
> the 'Protocols of
> > the Learned Elders of Zion' is a forgery."
> >
>
> What evidence do you have that the 'Protocols' is a forgery?
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
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>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:

> Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...

This seems to have about as little relevance to tuning as possible.
Some people hold this theory, and some people think Moses wrote the
Torah, and some people think the other two kinds of people are both
nuts. So what?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> The origins of this forgery are well documented (see links), but
besides
> that, the fact that this document is taken seriously only by nazis,
> neo-nazis, islamic fundies, Xtian fundies, and other people with
> single-digit IQs, might give one a hint as to its provenance.
>

Is that really the best that you can do? I asked you for *evidence*,
not cheap and nasty ad hominems which prove nothing.

Here is a considerably more balanced and unbiased view of it:-
http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/toolkit.html

Hello All,

Yes, this is interesting, and I do want to know more about what Peter's
precise views are, but we should take this entire thread over to metatuning
now, please. It's not appropriate here....

For those of you who don't already, you should subscribe to
metatuning@yahoogroups.com to follow offshoot, non-tuning threads from this
group.....

Respectfully,
Aaron.

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 10:34 pm, Peter Wakefield Sault wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> > The origins of this forgery are well documented (see links), but
>
> besides
>
> > that, the fact that this document is taken seriously only by nazis,
> > neo-nazis, islamic fundies, Xtian fundies, and other people with
> > single-digit IQs, might give one a hint as to its provenance.
>
> Is that really the best that you can do? I asked you for *evidence*,
> not cheap and nasty ad hominems which prove nothing.
>
> Here is a considerably more balanced and unbiased view of it:-
> http://users.cyberone.com.au/myers/toolkit.html
>
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
> for the tuning group. tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your
> subscription to daily digest mode. tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change
> your subscription to individual emails. tuning-help@yahoogroups.com -
> receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> What evidence do you have that the 'Protocols' is a forgery?

Read your own web page.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> Is that really the best that you can do? I asked you for
*evidence*,
> not cheap and nasty ad hominems which prove nothing.

Discussion of the provenance of the Protocols of the Ignorant Anti-
Semites of Everywhere is off-topic on tuning. If you want to discuss
it, go to metatuning.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
>
> > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
>
> This seems to have about as little relevance to tuning as possible.
> Some people hold this theory, and some people think Moses wrote the
> Torah, and some people think the other two kinds of people are both
> nuts. So what?

Hi, Gene

In fact I don't have any opinion on the matter of writer(s) of Torah.
You failed to see that this was not the point of my message. My
question is "what is Peter Wakefield Sault's association with
Adelaide Institute which a lot people think is spreading antisemitic
propaganda?" This too has no relevance to tuning but it has relevance
to me and many other group members.

Kalle

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
>
> > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
>
> This seems to have about as little relevance to tuning as possible.
> Some people hold this theory, and some people think Moses wrote the
> Torah, and some people think the other two kinds of people are both
> nuts. So what?

Thankyou Gene. I myself have suggested that this is not an
appropriate place for such a discussion but the others seem unable to
let it go. It is not quite clear to me what their purpose in all this
is but I feel I cannot allow those who have maliciously libeled and
slandered me to get away with their vicious lies. In the eyes of some
people an absence of a defence is an admission of guilt. Perhaps it
would be more dignified just to ignore them and if you, as senior,
and others wish I will let the matter drop.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > What evidence do you have that the 'Protocols' is a forgery?
>
> Read your own web page.

The 'Protocols' are not mentioned on any of my webpages, which are
concerned with better things than sordid conspiracies to rule the
world.

Peter- your refusal to simply state your views on this question speaks
volumes, as does the absence of any clear statement comming from you
condemning racism and fascism. I agree that this is off-topic here (although
some might consider that a crank in one area is often a crank in others), so
we can either A) "step outside" to Metatuning, and discuss it further, or B)
let the matter drop and consider Kalle's original question answered based on
what you have already said, and not said.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wakefield Sault [mailto:sault@cyberware.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:32 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite?
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> >
> > > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> > > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
> >
> > This seems to have about as little relevance to tuning as possible.
> > Some people hold this theory, and some people think Moses wrote the
> > Torah, and some people think the other two kinds of people are both
> > nuts. So what?
>
> Thankyou Gene. I myself have suggested that this is not an
> appropriate place for such a discussion but the others seem unable to
> let it go. It is not quite clear to me what their purpose in all this
> is but I feel I cannot allow those who have maliciously libeled and
> slandered me to get away with their vicious lies. In the eyes of some
> people an absence of a defence is an admission of guilt. Perhaps it
> would be more dignified just to ignore them and if you, as senior,
> and others wish I will let the matter drop.
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
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>
>

>Hi, Gene
>
>In fact I don't have any opinion on the matter of writer(s) of Torah.
>You failed to see that this was not the point of my message. My
>question is "what is Peter Wakefield Sault's association with
>Adelaide Institute which a lot people think is spreading antisemitic
>propaganda?" This too has no relevance to tuning but it has relevance
>to me and many other group members.
>
>Kalle

Kalle,

There may be many things about you and your associations that matter
to me, and it because they might matter to me that I do not want to
know about them. We are here to discuss tuning. If I found out you
were associated with a hate group, then what would I do? Demand you
leave? No, that would be imposing my political and moral views on
the list. Would I leave myself? No, I do not want to leave. But if
we both stay knowing we have such a disagreement, the environment of
the list is damaged.

But as long as we discuss only tuning, we are adding to the World,
even if one of us goes to Klan meetings on weekends. All the fewer
Klan meetings we could attend if we are here instead! But, if the
tuning list descends into politics and hate, then the World is worse
off. It is thus with everything. Commit no hate, and hate will
disappear. It cannot be "rooted out".

No-one on this list should be asked to reveal his political or
religious affiliations. And when they refuse to answer, they should
not be treated as you treated Peter, with the 'why won't you answer
if you have nothing to hide' routine.

-Carl

> If I found out you were associated with a hate group, then what
> would I do?

Coming from your "See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" approach, most likely nothing. It must be comfortable to live in a world where, to make things easy, you just ask the world to leave you alone so you can stay in your little tuning box.

Sometimes people need to speak up, even if it makes you feel uncomfortable, Carl. "We're all friends on this list." Yeah, right. Must be just my take on it, but what a sad place this has become.

Jon

Carl-

(microtonally)fiddling while Rome burns is not necessarily the best
approach.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Lumma [mailto:ekin@lumma.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:06 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite?
>
>
> >Hi, Gene
> >
> >In fact I don't have any opinion on the matter of writer(s) of Torah.
> >You failed to see that this was not the point of my message. My
> >question is "what is Peter Wakefield Sault's association with
> >Adelaide Institute which a lot people think is spreading antisemitic
> >propaganda?" This too has no relevance to tuning but it has relevance
> >to me and many other group members.
> >
> >Kalle
>
> Kalle,
>
> There may be many things about you and your associations that matter
> to me, and it because they might matter to me that I do not want to
> know about them. We are here to discuss tuning. If I found out you
> were associated with a hate group, then what would I do? Demand you
> leave? No, that would be imposing my political and moral views on
> the list. Would I leave myself? No, I do not want to leave. But if
> we both stay knowing we have such a disagreement, the environment of
> the list is damaged.
>
> But as long as we discuss only tuning, we are adding to the World,
> even if one of us goes to Klan meetings on weekends. All the fewer
> Klan meetings we could attend if we are here instead! But, if the
> tuning list descends into politics and hate, then the World is worse
> off. It is thus with everything. Commit no hate, and hate will
> disappear. It cannot be "rooted out".
>
> No-one on this list should be asked to reveal his political or
> religious affiliations. And when they refuse to answer, they should
> not be treated as you treated Peter, with the 'why won't you answer
> if you have nothing to hide' routine.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
> on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> wrote:
>
> > Is that really the best that you can do? I asked you for
> *evidence*,
> > not cheap and nasty ad hominems which prove nothing.
>
> Discussion of the provenance of the Protocols of the Ignorant Anti-
> Semites of Everywhere is off-topic on tuning. If you want to
discuss
> it, go to metatuning.

I do not wish to discuss the matter with these people here or
anywhere else. I will not, however, allow myself to be slandered and
libelled in public without answer. If you want an end to the subject
then shut *them* up. Otherwise I will exercise my right to defend
myself. It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo! and
deservedly so. I will now submit fresh complaints to Yahoo! about
Kalle and Dante, under the category of 'inappropriate material'. Then
hopefully we can all return exclusively to the subject of musical
tunings.

I rest my case.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Wakefield Sault [mailto:sault@cyberware.co.uk]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 2:51 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Peter Wakefield Sault - an Antisemite? - Dante
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Is that really the best that you can do? I asked you for
> > *evidence*,
> > > not cheap and nasty ad hominems which prove nothing.
> >
> > Discussion of the provenance of the Protocols of the Ignorant Anti-
> > Semites of Everywhere is off-topic on tuning. If you want to
> discuss
> > it, go to metatuning.
>
> I do not wish to discuss the matter with these people here or
> anywhere else. I will not, however, allow myself to be slandered and
> libelled in public without answer. If you want an end to the subject
> then shut *them* up. Otherwise I will exercise my right to defend
> myself. It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo! and
> deservedly so. I will now submit fresh complaints to Yahoo! about
> Kalle and Dante, under the category of 'inappropriate material'. Then
> hopefully we can all return exclusively to the subject of musical
> tunings.
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
> on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...> wrote:
> It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo! and
> deservedly so.

He is still a member, thankfully so, and has been a member for a long time. Before 'tuning' was with Yahoo. Before it was with Egroups. Way back at the beginning, and contributing all the way. I don't do music the way Paul does, and I don't have much in common with his theoretical work. But what he has done *is* of great value to a lot of people on this list.

> I will now submit fresh complaints to Yahoo! about
> Kalle and Dante, under the category of 'inappropriate material'.

Both members of long standing, adding to the body of knowledge we've come to respect on this list.

And you have been here for *six* days, and you are deciding who should be put off the list, and for what particular reasons. Pretty amazing.

This situation is completely nuts; I'll be curious to see who speaks out, and who keeps silent. In this case, simply talking about tuning isn't going to help. Speaking about the health of the community, *within* that community, can hardly be considered off-topic.

Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:
> > It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo! and
> > deservedly so.
>
> He is still a member, thankfully so, and has been a member for a
long time. Before 'tuning' was with Yahoo. Before it was with
Egroups. Way back at the beginning, and contributing all the way. I
don't do music the way Paul does, and I don't have much in common
with his theoretical work. But what he has done *is* of great value
to a lot of people on this list.
>
> > I will now submit fresh complaints to Yahoo! about
> > Kalle and Dante, under the category of 'inappropriate material'.
>
> Both members of long standing, adding to the body of knowledge
we've come to respect on this list.
>
> And you have been here for *six* days, and you are deciding who
should be put off the list, and for what particular reasons. Pretty
amazing.
>
> This situation is completely nuts; I'll be curious to see who
speaks out, and who keeps silent. In this case, simply talking about
tuning isn't going to help. Speaking about the health of the
community, *within* that community, can hardly be considered off-
topic.
>
> Jon

Must I submit a complaint about you, too? If you wish to see an end
to the subject then drop it.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...> wrote:
> Must I submit a complaint about you, too?

On the basis of what? For expressing an opinion?

> If you wish to see an end to the subject then drop it.

Let's see: you get to "defend yourself", but everyone else has to drop it. How convenient.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> I rest my case.
>

Not a moment too soon. Leave it that way.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

If you want an end to the subject
> then shut *them* up. Otherwise I will exercise my right to defend
> myself. It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo!
and
> deservedly so. I will now submit fresh complaints to Yahoo! about
> Kalle and Dante, under the category of 'inappropriate material'.
Then
> hopefully we can all return exclusively to the subject of musical
> tunings.

Dear Mr Sault:

This list has been around for many years, and these are the names of
people who have contributed seriously to our discussion. I have been
a member for only two years, and I can only slowly start to
understand the discussion, so I lay low and learn. For you to come
on so recently and start on with attacks of such viciousness because
the discussion in this this community has gone somewhere other than
your own researches is one thing, and is sad and typical of list-
invaders. But if you will cause the break up of this community by
causing such good people to be banned would be a real tragedy.

Dear all:

If we cannot find the list owner to fix this, then I would be happy
to let the SpecMus list take over, with as many moderators as we need.

Gabor Bernath

hi Peter,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> > This situation is completely nuts; I'll be curious to
> > see who speaks out, and who keeps silent. In this case,
> > simply talking about tuning isn't going to help. Speaking
> > about the health of the community, *within* that community,
> > can hardly be considered off-topic.
> >
> > Jon
>
> Must I submit a complaint about you, too? If you wish to
> see an end to the subject then drop it.

what basis do you have for submitting a complaint about Jon?

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

Otherwise I will exercise my right to defend
> myself. It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo!
and
> deservedly so.

It seems you are wrong. If Yahoo were to boot him we'd be forced to
move the entire list with all 700 members somewhere else.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> This situation is completely nuts; I'll be curious to see who
speaks out, and who keeps silent.

I'm not a moderator here. We don't have a moderator here. I am the
list owner of tuning-math, by the Donation of Erlich, so I can say
this: don't email Yahoo with complaints of bad behavior originating
from tuning-math; I can and probably will ban anyone from that list
who does that. If anyone thinks they are being badly treated over
there, email me or another moderator with any complaints. If I am the
one being obnoxious, pray for rain--it might annoy me.

Please take this to metatuning....

-Aaron.

On Tuesday 09 December 2003 11:26 pm, Kalle Aho wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
> > > Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
> > > being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
> >
> > This seems to have about as little relevance to tuning as possible.
> > Some people hold this theory, and some people think Moses wrote the
> > Torah, and some people think the other two kinds of people are both
> > nuts. So what?
>
> Hi, Gene
>
> In fact I don't have any opinion on the matter of writer(s) of Torah.
> You failed to see that this was not the point of my message. My
> question is "what is Peter Wakefield Sault's association with
> Adelaide Institute which a lot people think is spreading antisemitic
> propaganda?" This too has no relevance to tuning but it has relevance
> to me and many other group members.
>
> Kalle
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
> for the tuning group. tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your
> subscription to daily digest mode. tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change
> your subscription to individual emails. tuning-help@yahoogroups.com -
> receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

How about if you kids take it to private email?

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Aaron K. Johnson wrote:

>Please take this to metatuning....
>
>-Aaron.
>
>On Tuesday 09 December 2003 11:26 pm, Kalle Aho wrote:
> >
>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>> >>
>>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Kalle Aho" <kalleaho@m...> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>>Scroll down to see his face and a link to some writing about Ezra
>>>>being the writer of the whole Old Testament blah blah...
>>>> >>>>
>>>This seems to have about as little relevance to tuning as possible.
>>>Some people hold this theory, and some people think Moses wrote the
>>>Torah, and some people think the other two kinds of people are both
>>>nuts. So what?
>>> >>>
>>Hi, Gene
>>
>>In fact I don't have any opinion on the matter of writer(s) of Torah.
>>You failed to see that this was not the point of my message. My
>>question is "what is Peter Wakefield Sault's association with
>>Adelaide Institute which a lot people think is spreading antisemitic
>>propaganda?" This too has no relevance to tuning but it has relevance
>>to me and many other group members.
>>
>>Kalle
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
>>email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
>> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
>> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
>> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
>>for the tuning group. tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your
>>subscription to daily digest mode. tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change
>>your subscription to individual emails. tuning-help@yahoogroups.com -
>>receive general help information.
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >>
>
> >

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

on 10/12/03 07:50, Peter Wakefield Sault at sault@cyberware.co.uk wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is that really the best that you can do? I asked you for
>> *evidence*,
>>> not cheap and nasty ad hominems which prove nothing.
>>
>> Discussion of the provenance of the Protocols of the Ignorant Anti-
>> Semites of Everywhere is off-topic on tuning. If you want to
> discuss
>> it, go to metatuning.
>
> I do not wish to discuss the matter with these people here or
> anywhere else. I will not, however, allow myself to be slandered and
> libelled in public without answer. If you want an end to the subject
> then shut *them* up. Otherwise I will exercise my right to defend
> myself. It looks as though Paul Erlich has been deleted by Yahoo! and
> deservedly so. I will now submit fresh complaints to Yahoo! about
> Kalle and Dante, under the category of 'inappropriate material'. Then
> hopefully we can all return exclusively to the subject of musical
> tunings.
>
>

Peter

you're behaving like an Englishman abroad here. They're not such a bad bunch
on this list and certainly more civil than most. Why not sit down with a
nice cup of tea (and humble pie) and learn something you don't know?

Sincerely

a.m.