Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning barbershop samples

I was trying to figure out how to do this without having
to test the boundaries of fair use, but the best I could
come up with is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgTgy5XB2Lg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_s4Njyby84

So here's some more:

http://lumma.org/stuff/NoNoNora.mp3
http://lumma.org/stuff/NoMoreSorrow.mp3
http://lumma.org/stuff/MuskratRamble.mp3

I'll take them down in a day or two.

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Thank you very much!

However this doesn't serve as a very good example.
As discussed before it's hard to discern 7/4 from 225/128 for instance.
Besides this no choir will sing in tune enough to do this.
What would work for this discussion is a simple example in JI like this for
instance:

3/2 15/8 9/4 8/3 -> 1/1 3/2 2/1 5/2
mode: 1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 2/1

I hope you don't think the above example should be 7-limit and 3/2 15/8 9/4
21/8?

Marcel

I was trying to figure out how to do this without having
> to test the boundaries of fair use, but the best I could
> come up with is:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgTgy5XB2Lg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_s4Njyby84
>
> So here's some more:
>
> http://lumma.org/stuff/NoNoNora.mp3
> http://lumma.org/stuff/NoMoreSorrow.mp3
> http://lumma.org/stuff/MuskratRamble.mp3
>
> I'll take them down in a day or two.
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> What would work for this discussion is a simple example in JI
> like this for instance:
>
> 3/2 15/8 9/4 8/3 -> 1/1 3/2 2/1 5/2
> mode: 1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 2/1
>
> I hope you don't think the above example should be 7-limit
> and 3/2 15/8 9/4 21/8?

I don't see how it should be anything other than the way
you've written it. You wrote it, that's how it should be.

-Carl

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
> Thank you very much!
> However this doesn't serve as a very good example.
> As discussed before it's hard to discern 7/4 from 225/128 for instance.
> Besides this no choir will sing in tune enough to do this.
> What would work for this discussion is a simple example in JI like this for
> instance:
> 3/2 15/8 9/4 8/3 -> 1/1 3/2 2/1 5/2
> mode: 1/1 9/8 5/4 4/3 3/2 5/3 15/8 2/1
> I hope you don't think the above example should be 7-limit and 3/2 15/8 9/4
> 21/8?

The two are just different. If you use a 4:5:6:7 as a dominant 7
chord, it will be a little more stable and beg for resolution a little
bit less. I don't see why that situation couldn't come up musically.

Why do you insist on there being only one way to do things?

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> The two are just different. If you use a 4:5:6:7 as a dominant 7
> chord, it will be a little more stable and beg for resolution a little
> bit less. I don't see why that situation couldn't come up musically.
>

This situation will never come up musically.
This is not even a 7-limit vs 5-limit thing. 225/128 would be totally wrong
there too.
In this situation you must be able to to go from 3/2 down to 4/3 with a
major semitone of 9/8.
It's the major scale.
If you do a step like 8/7 it'll sound horribly out of tune, and it will be.
You guys are completely lost.

Marcel

🔗Mike Battaglia <battaglia01@...>

On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 3:17 AM, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>> The two are just different. If you use a 4:5:6:7 as a dominant 7
>> chord, it will be a little more stable and beg for resolution a little
>> bit less. I don't see why that situation couldn't come up musically.
>
> This situation will never come up musically.
> This is not even a 7-limit vs 5-limit thing. 225/128 would be totally wrong
> there too.
> In this situation you must be able to to go from 3/2 down to 4/3 with a
> major semitone of 9/8.
> It's the major scale.
> If you do a step like 8/7 it'll sound horribly out of tune, and it will be.
> You guys are completely lost.
> Marcel

The 7/4 of V will resolve downward by a half step to the 5/4 of I.
There's no major semitone or anything involved with the 7/4. I hope
I'm not lost enough to have forgotten F-E is a half step, not a whole
step.

-Mike

P.S. 9/8 is a major whole tone, not a major semitone

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...>

I'm definitely hearing some 7-limit dom-7 chords in NoNoNora.

This is great stuff. That first one blew me away.

On Feb 13, 2009, at 1:46 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:

> I was trying to figure out how to do this without having
> to test the boundaries of fair use, but the best I could
> come up with is:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgTgy5XB2Lg
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_s4Njyby84
>
> So here's some more:
>
> http://lumma.org/stuff/NoNoNora.mp3
> http://lumma.org/stuff/NoMoreSorrow.mp3
> http://lumma.org/stuff/MuskratRamble.mp3
>
> I'll take them down in a day or two.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, caleb morgan <calebmrgn@...> wrote:
>
> I'm definitely hearing some 7-limit dom-7 chords in NoNoNora.
>
> This is great stuff. That first one blew me away.

I grew up going to barbershop concerts, and I always wondered
why it didn't sound like other music. When I started to
play an instrument, I attributed it to closely-voiced chords,
but that didn't really seem a very satisfying explanation.

Then, when I first started learning about microtonality, I got
Michael Harrison's _From Ancient Worlds_, which is a 7-limit
piano recording. It sounded out of tune to me. Then one day
I was listening to barbershop, and I felt my ear click, and I
heard that these were the same chords! For some reason they
don't sound so unusual in the barbershop setting. Since that
day, I've fully appreciated From Ancient Worlds. And I have
a good explanation for why barbershop sounds different.

I think what happened to me is the process of learning to
hear out notes across timbres. Most people can't hear out
notes at all -- they just hear pretty sounds when they listen
to music. If they take up an instrument, they learn to hear
out notes first on their instrument. They may stop there.
I noticed growing up that my friend in band who played trumpet
listened only to brass music, and my friends who played guitar
liked only music with guitars in it. I hypothesized that
this was because they were getting the extra enjoyment of
hearing out notes from their instrument. Finally, if one
takes the next step and starts composing, or playing multiple
instruments, or just listening to a wide variety of music,
one learns to hear out notes across timbres.

What I'm getting at is that it isn't just No No Nora. All
of the tunes I linked to have 7- or 9-limit harmony 75% of
the time. Check out the 9-limit chords in the hocketing
section of No More Sorrow, and in Sit Down You're Rockin'
The Boat, behind "the devil will drag you under" for more
easy to spot cases.

-Carl

> On Feb 13, 2009, at 1:46 AM, Carl Lumma wrote:
>
> > I was trying to figure out how to do this without having
> > to test the boundaries of fair use, but the best I could
> > come up with is:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgTgy5XB2Lg
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_s4Njyby84
> >
> > So here's some more:
> >
> > http://lumma.org/stuff/NoNoNora.mp3
> > http://lumma.org/stuff/NoMoreSorrow.mp3
> > http://lumma.org/stuff/MuskratRamble.mp3
> >
> > I'll take them down in a day or two.
> >
> > -Carl
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> What I'm getting at is that it isn't just No No Nora. All
> of the tunes I linked to have 7- or 9-limit harmony 75% of
> the time. Check out the 9-limit chords in the hocketing
> section of No More Sorrow, and in Sit Down You're Rockin'
> The Boat, behind "the devil will drag you under" for more
> easy to spot cases.
>

As I allready said many times.
I can't and you can't distinguish 75/64 from 7/6 simply from how 1 single
chord sounds.
You can tell which one it is because of the progression.

All I ask for is a clear example of 7-limit chords and a functional
progression, not as an mp3 but written down in JI intervals.
I've given several such examples in 5-limi in my first post on this subject,
and gave another one later to mike.
So please stop sending or talking about the mp3's and give me such a simple
example.
Shouldn't take more than a few seconds to write down.
However I'm guessing you don't have such an example that will stand up to
investigation.

Marcel

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:

> All I ask for is a clear example of 7-limit chords and a functional
> progression, not as an mp3 but written down in JI intervals.

By the way, I agree with you, Marcel, about 81/64 and 32/27
not being the same as 5/4 and 6/5 as far as musical structure.

But instead of delving into the 7-limit, I think we first
need to examine your assumption that you understand 5-limit
structure. I tried to do this on MMM with the Beethoven
retuning challenge, but perhaps we should try a more direct
approach: How would you tune this de Lasso composition

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/blackwood/lassus-vicentino-1-4cmt.gif

Your response can be given by writing ratios down, rather
than by having to make an audio file.

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> By the way, I agree with you, Marcel, about 81/64 and 32/27
> not being the same as 5/4 and 6/5 as far as musical structure.
>
> But instead of delving into the 7-limit, I think we first
> need to examine your assumption that you understand 5-limit
> structure. I tried to do this on MMM with the Beethoven
> retuning challenge, but perhaps we should try a more direct
> approach: How would you tune this de Lasso composition
>
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/blackwood/lassus-vicentino-1-4cmt.gif
>
> ?
>
> Your response can be given by writing ratios down, rather
> than by having to make an audio file.
>

Yeah the Beethoven is way overdue.
I've actualy finished it allready a long time ago but didn't want to post it
till I am 100% sure it is 100% correct.
An I wanted to do it without listening, purely on theory.
So I have not heard my own version myself yet and won't till after I post it
here.
But I'll abandon the thought I need to be 100% sure it's correct.
I'll have the Beethoven one in written ratios after this weekend together
with this Vicentino.
Just wish to give it one final check, and don't have much time this comming
weekend as my girlfriend is fed up with me only working on music all weekend
long haha.

Marcel

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > How would you tune this de Lasso composition
> >
> > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/blackwood/lassus-vicentino-1-4cmt.gif
> >
> > ?
> >
> > Your response can be given by writing ratios down, rather
> > than by having to make an audio file.
> >
>
> Yeah the Beethoven is way overdue.
//
> Marcel

Don't worry about the Beethoven. The above is a much more
direct example. Of course I'd still like to see your analysis,
but we will get much better results I think if we focus on
the Lassus (sorry for writing "de Lasso" above!).

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@> wrote:
> >
> > > How would you tune this de Lasso composition
> > > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/blackwood/lassus-vicentino-1-4cmt.gif
> > > ?
> > > Your response can be given by writing ratios down, rather
> > > than by having to make an audio file.
> >
> > Yeah the Beethoven is way overdue.
> > Marcel
>
> Don't worry about the Beethoven. The above is a much more
> direct example. Of course I'd still like to see your analysis,
> but we will get much better results I think if we focus on
> the Lassus (sorry for writing "de Lasso" above!).

Well, the weekend has come and gone. Maybe I can help
things along by transcribing the music here:

G---G A Bb--Bb A---A G.....A---A G---G F# E F# G
D E F---F---G---G F---F E D E D---D D.........D
B C---C D---D C---C---C-----C B---B A.........B
G C F Bb--Bb C---C---C-----C D---D D.........G

(Choose "Use Fixed Width Font" under "Message Option" on
the right if you're viewing this on Yahoo's website.)

The dashes represent ties, and the dots represent sustained
notes. Now one can hopefully transform this into something
like:

1---1 9
3 5/3 9/5
5 /3---/3
1 /3 9/5 etc.

Right?

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hi Carl :)

Well, the weekend has come and gone. Maybe I can help
> things along by transcribing the music here:
>
> G---G A Bb--Bb A---A G.....A---A G---G F# E F# G
> D E F---F---G---G F---F E D E D---D D.........D
> B C---C D---D C---C---C-----C B---B A.........B
> G C F Bb--Bb C---C---C-----C D---D D.........G
>
> (Choose "Use Fixed Width Font" under "Message Option" on
> the right if you're viewing this on Yahoo's website.)
>
> The dashes represent ties, and the dots represent sustained
> notes. Now one can hopefully transform this into something
> like:
>
> 1---1 9
> 3 5/3 9/5
> 5 /3---/3
> 1 /3 9/5 etc.
>
> Right?
>

Thanks very much for the transcription.
But I've just 1 hour ago started working on GSTQ.
I like it since people are well familiar with it.
May finish that it later today, otherwise tomorrow. Will include audio.
Then I'll choose between checking the Beethoven or this one.

Marcel

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> As already mentioned, this is a more direct test of your
> understanding of basic 5-limit JI. No audio needed. How
> long could it take you to write out the ratios, if your
> understanding of tuning is 1/10th as good as you say it is?
> 5 minutes? Don't keep us waiting!
>

Why is it a more direct test? A shorter test you mean?
But I wish I could do it in 5 minutes :)
I'm not that great with notes, merely transcribing it the way I like it
takes me an hour.
And then to retune it takes me much longer. I have to understand what's
beeing played and check it against my theory which takes long.
I work very slow. Also due to inexperience, these are the first compositions
I'm retuning.
Hope to be able to work faster in the future.

Marcel

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> > As already mentioned, this is a more direct test of your
> > understanding of basic 5-limit JI. No audio needed. How
> > long could it take you to write out the ratios, if your
> > understanding of tuning is 1/10th as good as you say it is?
> > 5 minutes? Don't keep us waiting!
>
> Why is it a more direct test? A shorter test you mean?
> But I wish I could do it in 5 minutes :)

Shorter, easier for you, easier for us, and contains a clear
comma pump that should make you realize your entire approach
until now has been flawed. :)

> Hope to be able to work faster in the future.

Alright then.

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Hmmm I really don't like this Lassus piece.It's not completely clear to me
what it's musical structure is.
Not by playing it / listening, not by analysing.
So I find it harder in this respect than the Beethoven or GSTQ.

But I'll paste it in the next message.
Hope it pastes ok, otherwise i'll put it online and link to it.

Btw my note reading is really bad.
I noticed you put notes that are tied by a tie as seperate notes.
I thought notes that are tied and thesame note are to be played as one note?
So i didn't write tied notes.

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Just Intonation by Marcel de Velde
C3 = 1/1

1 G4 (3/1) B4 (15/4) D5 (9/2) x
| | | x
| | | x
| | | x
1.2 | | | x
| | | x
| | | x
| | | x
1.3 | | | G5 (6/1)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
1.4 | | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
2 C4 (2/1) C5 (4/1) E5 (5/1) |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
2.2 | | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
2.3 F4 (8/3) | F5 (16/3) A5 (20/3)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
2.4 | C5 (4/1) | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
3 Bb3 (16/9) D5 (40/9) | Bb5 (64/9)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
3.2 | | G5 (160/27) |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
3.3 C4 (2/1) C5 (4/1) | A5 (20/3)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
3.4 | | F5 (16/3) |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
4 | | | G5 (6/1)
| | | |
| | E5 (5/1) |
| | D5 (9/2) |
4.2 | | E5 (5/1) A5 (20/3)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
4.3 D4 (9/4) B4 (15/4) D5 (9/2) |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
4.4 | | | G5 (6/1)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
5 D4 (9/4) A4 (27/8) D5 (9/2) |
| | | |
| | | F#5 (45/8)
| | | E5 (81/16)
5.2 | | | F#5 (45/8)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
5.3 G4 (3/1) B4 (15/4) D5 (9/2) G5 (6/1)
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
5.4 | | | |
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Ok looks like that pasted almost ok.Btw the C3, C4 etc I'm not sure about if
that's right either since my keyboard lists one note as C3 which Cakewalk
lists as C5.
I've gone with the cakewalk naming.

I'll go put together a scale of the notes in this piece and put the notes in
cakewalk and then record it and put it online.
Haven't heard a single note myself in JI of this piece btw, worked it out in
12tet.
So if I made a mistake and it sounds terrible it's not my ears gone bad :)

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

I see just a nice small example what Renaissance modal (= pre-functional) harmony is :-)

Yes, in certain sense it's more difficult music for analysis, as there's a lot of harmonic "irregularities" (in comparison with later music), and it's not possible to apply rules of functional harmony.

Daniel Forro

On 17 Feb 2009, at 10:30 PM, Marcel de Velde wrote:

> Hmmm I really don't like this Lassus piece.
>
> It's not completely clear to me what it's musical structure is.
> Not by playing it / listening, not by analysing.
> So I find it harder in this respect than the Beethoven or GSTQ.

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> I see just a nice small example what Renaissance modal (= pre-
> functional) harmony is :-)
>
> Yes, in certain sense it's more difficult music for analysis, as
> there's a lot of harmonic "irregularities" (in comparison with later
> music), and it's not possible to apply rules of functional harmony.
>

Aah ok, interesting.
I didn't go to conservatory, the little I know about functional harmony etc
is from wikipedia.
But it now seems to me that this functional harmony then had a good reason,
since this song goes a bit weird between measure 3 and 4.

Marcel

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

Could someone be so kind as to post the URL for this piece again?

Thanks,

Chris
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:41:37
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: barbershop samples

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

I thought there was a rendering of the piece. If not I should do it.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:49:37
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: barbershop samples

>
> Could someone be so kind as to post the URL for this piece again?

You mean the score?
http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/blackwood/lassus-vicentino-1-4cmt.gif

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> And yet you claim to know that "nobody here seems to know how JI really
> works", and which chords are "invalid"?
>
> Sorry, I usually try quite hard not to be nasty, but this time I REALLY
> could not resist.
>

I'm selftaught, what's your point?
And my comments were on JI.
You can't learn JI at the conservatory.
Only music history and a bunch of theories (with many errors) on how music
works based on history.

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗hstraub64 <straub@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> I'm selftaught, what's your point?
> And my comments were on JI.

My point was not that you are selftaught. My point was that you stated
yourself you know little of functional harmony.

No insult intended. I do not claim to know much about JI - but when I
read a statement like "nobody here seems to know how XXX really works" -
which usually implies "I, of course, do know how XXX really works" -
I always get the strong suspicion that the person does NOT know. And
your statement above confirmend my suspicion. I may still be wrong, of
course.

And one more point: This group has 1359 members. Stating that nobody of
them seems to know is in any case a bold thing.
--
Hans Straub

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

I take it back.
I did not mess up.
Orlando di Lasso messed up!!

I have made a slight modification to the length of 2 notes and now it is
correct.
From 3.2 to 3.3 G5 sounds, it should not continue after 3.3 to 3.4 but
should be a rest from 3.3 till 3.4.
From 4.2 to 4.3 A5 sounds, it should not continue after 4.3 to 4.4 but
should be a rest from 4.3 till 4.4

I will upload the audio and modified JI transcription soon.

Marcel

Ok I messed up.I put down the notes in cakewalk and the part that made no
> sense to me doesn't make sense to my ears either :)
> Infact it sounds completely out of tune.
> I'll go fix it now.
> So forget about the JI I posted it's wrong.
> I'll post new one very soon.
> 1-0 for Carl for giving me the right file to mess up with :)
>
> Marcel
>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> My point was not that you are selftaught. My point was that you stated
> yourself you know little of functional harmony.
>

Yes, know little of functional harmony the way it is described in books.
Meaning I don't know the words etc.
I do know a lot about how music works, but don't know how much of this
knowledge falls under what's called functional harmony.

No insult intended. I do not claim to know much about JI - but when I
> read a statement like "nobody here seems to know how XXX really works" -
> which usually implies "I, of course, do know how XXX really works" -
> I always get the strong suspicion that the person does NOT know. And
> your statement above confirmend my suspicion. I may still be wrong, of
> course.
>

Ah I do know a lot about JI but I don't know how everything works, though I
feel I'm getting close on certain points.
But I don't think one must know everything in order to be able to tell when
other people are wrong.

I'm glad you did not mean it insulting :)
As besides a few heated moments on this list I mean everything very friendly
as well.

And one more point: This group has 1359 members. Stating that nobody of
> them seems to know is in any case a bold thing.
>

Yes true.
But I did say "seems", as in that i had not seen any evidence of this.
Nowhere online, not on this list, not in any book, not on wiki, etc.

Marcel

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

On 17 Feb 2009, at 14:49, Marcel de Velde wrote:
> Could someone be so kind as to post the URL for this piece again?
>
> You mean the score?
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/blackwood/lassus-vicentino-1-4cmt.gif
>

The funny thing is that there is an "almost JI" solution put directly in the music notation (almost JI meaning adaptive JI, i.e., simultaneties are in JI but root relations are in meantone). Carl is certainly aware of that :)

Best
Torsten

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Anyhow, here are the audio files and JI transcription:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lassus-vicentino.rtf

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-ET.mp3

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-JI.mp3

Don't expect the JI to sound pretty though lol
I'll have another look tomorrow if there's perhaps another way to interpret
the middle part.
But no matter how the interpretation differs you will allways have to add
rests or retune sounding notes.
It's just a bad bad composition.

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Cameron Bobro <misterbobro@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Anyhow, here are the audio files and JI transcription:
> http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lassus-vicentino.rtf
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-ET.mp3
>
> http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-JI.mp3
>
> Don't expect the JI to sound pretty though lol
> I'll have another look tomorrow if there's perhaps another way to
interpret
> the middle part.
> But no matter how the interpretation differs you will allways have
to add
> rests or retune sounding notes.
> It's just a bad bad composition.
>
> Marcel
>

I'd word that just a tad bit differently- I'd say it's a good, good
composition. :-)

Those held notes you lopped off- well they're the cruxt of the
problem. Your Herculean method of taking care of that Gordian knot
does have a certain flair though.

Retune sounding notes... or temper... OR... now you see what
everyone's going on about?

And those bendings, or temperings, or other sneakier methods, or just
plain taking the JI full frontal, they're not "necessary evils", they
are MUSIC, too. If you sing in a
choir (I mean a real choir, without a f**king piano) you'll find that
these things are part of the sensual pleasure of harmony.

🔗Torsten Anders <torsten.anders@...>

🔗chrisvaisvil@...

Thank you for the file. With all due respect the third to last chord feels neutral but I don't think the section played here sounds bad.
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:03:22
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: barbershop samples

Anyhow, here are the audio files and JI transcription:
http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lassus-vicentino.rtf

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-ET.mp3

http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-JI.mp3

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> I'd word that just a tad bit differently- I'd say it's a good, good
> composition. :-)
>

Good for Carl yes :)

> Those held notes you lopped off- well they're the cruxt of the
> problem. Your Herculean method of taking care of that Gordian knot
> does have a certain flair though.
>

Haha thanks.

> Retune sounding notes... or temper... OR... now you see what
> everyone's going on about?
>

Well yes I do.
Bending sounding notes I can agree with.
But maybe if the music is ugly let it be ugly or modify the composition.

And those bendings, or temperings, or other sneakier methods, or just
> plain taking the JI full frontal, they're not "necessary evils", they
> are MUSIC, too. If you sing in a
> choir (I mean a real choir, without a f**king piano) you'll find that
> these things are part of the sensual pleasure of harmony.
>

Hmm well yes but this piece of music didn't make much sense to me before i
started to tune it.
So the problem is really in the composition.

Though I now see that I shouldn't have continued without understanding
what's going on in this song first.
I can allready see a few other interpretations that would probably make
things less ugly.

I'll leave the files up so you guys can have some fun :)
And work on better understanding this piece.
(though might finish GSTQ and the Beethoven piece first so I have atleast 2
good JI transcriptions to show and everybody doesn't think i stink lol)

Marcel

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Hmmm I really don't like this Lassus piece.

Of course you didn't.

> Btw my note reading is really bad.
> I noticed you put notes that are tied by a tie as seperate notes.
> I thought notes that are tied and thesame note are to be played
> as one note? So i didn't write tied notes.

Since I removed all rhythmic structure, I split whole notes
into tied halfs (or halves into quarters, etc.) in order to
give a block structure that would be easier to read as text.

-Carl

🔗Daniel Forro <dan.for@...>

On 18 Feb 2009, at 2:26 AM, Marcel de Velde wrote:

>
> I'd word that just a tad bit differently- I'd say it's a good, good
> composition. :-)
>
> Good for Carl yes :)

Not only him, add me as well.

>
> Those held notes you lopped off- well they're the cruxt of the
> problem. Your Herculean method of taking care of that Gordian knot
> does have a certain flair though.
>
> Haha thanks.

> But maybe if the music is ugly let it be ugly or modify the > composition.

Maybe the best modification will be to use your method and just transform ALL notes into the silence to make it less ugly. Pure zen. Non-music can be music, too. At least tuning problem solved :-)

> Hmm well yes but this piece of music didn't make much sense to me > before i started to tune it.
> So the problem is really in the composition.

Still one possibility left where the problem could be.

>
> Though I now see that I shouldn't have continued without > understanding what's going on in this song first.
> I can allready see a few other interpretations that would probably > make things less ugly.
>
> I'll leave the files up so you guys can have some fun :)
> And work on better understanding this piece.
> (though might finish GSTQ and the Beethoven piece first so I have > atleast 2 good JI transcriptions to show and everybody doesn't > think i stink lol)
>
Good luck.

Daniel Forro

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Forro <dan.for@...> wrote:
>
> I see just a nice small example what Renaissance modal (= pre-
> functional) harmony is :-)
>
> Yes, in certain sense it's more difficult music for analysis, as
> there's a lot of harmonic "irregularities" (in comparison with later
> music), and it's not possible to apply rules of functional harmony.
>
> Daniel Forro

I won't be surprised if Marcel simply continues to dismiss
as bad any piece of music that his theory can't handle.

There's nothing modal or functional about this elementary
chord progression, which any theory as "correct" and "valid"
as Marcel's will obviously handle with ease.

-Carl

🔗Carl Lumma <carl@...>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> I take it back.
> I did not mess up.
> Orlando di Lasso messed up!!

As predicted!

> I have made a slight modification to the length of 2 notes
> and now it is correct.

hahaha

I thought you "loved comma pumps"?

-Carl

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> I won't be surprised if Marcel simply continues to dismiss
> as bad any piece of music that his theory can't handle.
>
> There's nothing modal or functional about this elementary
> chord progression, which any theory as "correct" and "valid"
> as Marcel's will obviously handle with ease.
>

Ah common.
I made a mistake.
I did it in a hurry and underestimated the piece.
And i posted without listening.
But i was especially stupid in posting before i understood the piece.

And it's not as if all music makes sense.
And this has a particulary hard problem to spot fast and not much to work
with.

Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

🔗Tom Dent <stringph@...>

Could you use some kind of sound that SUSTAINS through the held notes?
Otherwise we can't necessarily tell if the held-over note sounds right
with the rest of the parts, because the piano tone dies away so
quickly. As you might know, this is a choral work. How about brass
sounds (no vibrato please)?

Anyway, the chord on the second beat of b.4 (A minor 1st inversion
c-c'-e'-a') is obviously screwy. What are the ratios of it?
~~~T~~~

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...> wrote:
>
> Ah, I had put one note wrong in cakewalk for the correct JI2 version.The
> last chord I had put a D4 instead of a G4.
>
> I've uploaded the new correct JI2 version with thesame name
replacing the
> old.
> http://sites.google.com/site/develdenet/mp3/lasso-JI2.mp3
>
> The shifted note was not shifted in the transcription.
>
> Marcel

🔗Marcel de Velde <m.develde@...>

>
> Could you use some kind of sound that SUSTAINS through the held notes?
> Otherwise we can't necessarily tell if the held-over note sounds right
> with the rest of the parts, because the piano tone dies away so
> quickly. As you might know, this is a choral work. How about brass
> sounds (no vibrato please)?
>

Sorry but I only have pianoteq set up on my computer.
Otherwise I have to use my synth and record but i don't have it set up
properly right now.

I'll go fiddle around with scala tomorrow to see if I can make microtuned
midi files.

Anyway, the chord on the second beat of b.4 (A minor 1st inversion
> c-c'-e'-a') is obviously screwy. What are the ratios of it?
>

Yes it's where the modulation happens.Said so it's a weird piece.
The ratios are: 1/1 2/1 81/32 27/8
But it is correct. The 81/32 27/8 comes over the 1/1 2/1 and then leads to
the next chord.

Marcel