ears for scale? youtube recording

Hi tuning,

I have found a great video on YouTube and I'm pretty for sure it is a
microtuned one. It's not extremely "exotic" my guess is 3/4 tones, but
since you guys are intelligent to know exactly, that's what I want to
know. I want to tune up to this and jam like that. It's a bulgarian
gypsy pop song if you're hetro male then it is for you.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKp90Di6Xk

I still think the song is really fly regardless

That is a fun song. And the dancing is sexy too. I think the lyrics are in Romani (the language of the Gypsies. which is actually related to North Indian languages like Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi and Gujarati).

It uses two makams (melodic modes), both on A: Saba, A Bd C Db E F G Ab B C, and Bayati, A Bd C D E F G A. Both use a neutral second, the B half-flat.

The usul (rhythm) is called karsilama, and is Turkish, but also found in a lot of music of the Balkans and Middle East, including Romani/Gypsy music. It's in 9/8, but instead of 3+3+3, it's 2+2+2+3. Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a la Turk" uses the same rhythm in much of the tune.

~D.

----- Original Message ----- From: "johngilbert3x" <preciousatonement@gmail.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: [tuning] ears for scale? youtube recording

> Hi tuning,
>
> I have found a great video on YouTube and I'm pretty for sure it is a
> microtuned one. It's not extremely "exotic" my guess is 3/4 tones, but
> since you guys are intelligent to know exactly, that's what I want to
> know. I want to tune up to this and jam like that. It's a bulgarian
> gypsy pop song if you're hetro male then it is for you.
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKp90Di6Xk
>
>
> I still think the song is really fly regardless

> The usul (rhythm) is called karsilama, and is Turkish, but also found in a
> lot of music of the Balkans and Middle East, including Romani/Gypsy music.
> It's in 9/8, but instead of 3+3+3, it's 2+2+2+3. Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a > la
> Turk" uses the same rhythm in much of the tune.

Correction: it's actually written karsilama, and is pronounced (vaguely) "kar-shih-lah-mah". It's used a LOT in Greek music.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%9F%C4%B1lama

thanks
I'm going to look into that , very interesting.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:
>
> That is a fun song. And the dancing is sexy too. I think the lyrics
are in
> Romani (the language of the Gypsies. which is actually related to
North
> Indian languages like Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi and Gujarati).
>
> It uses two makams (melodic modes), both on A: Saba, A Bd C Db E F
G Ab B C,
> and Bayati, A Bd C D E F G A. Both use a neutral second, the B half-
flat.
>
> The usul (rhythm) is called karsilama, and is Turkish, but also
found in a
> lot of music of the Balkans and Middle East, including Romani/Gypsy
music.
> It's in 9/8, but instead of 3+3+3, it's 2+2+2+3. Brubeck's "Blue
Rondo a la
> Turk" uses the same rhythm in much of the tune.
>
> ~D.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "johngilbert3x" <preciousatonement@...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:13 PM
> Subject: [tuning] ears for scale? youtube recording
>
>
> > Hi tuning,
> >
> > I have found a great video on YouTube and I'm pretty for sure it
is a
> > microtuned one. It's not extremely "exotic" my guess is 3/4
tones, but
> > since you guys are intelligent to know exactly, that's what I
want to
> > know. I want to tune up to this and jam like that. It's a
bulgarian
> > gypsy pop song if you're hetro male then it is for you.
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKp90Di6Xk
> >
> >
> > I still think the song is really fly regardless
>

Danny is an excellent observer. The maqams and the ousul seem correct. For a
more refined tuning, however, choose 72-EDO or 79/80 MOS 159-tET.

I can discern some Turkish words in the song. "Sevgili", for instance, means
"lover".

Hurm... the girls are real nice. I have a good mind of keeping one or two
for myself. ;)

Oz.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@sbcglobal.net>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 22 Temmuz 2007 Pazar 6:44
Subject: Re: [tuning] ears for scale? youtube recording

> That is a fun song. And the dancing is sexy too. I think the lyrics are in
> Romani (the language of the Gypsies. which is actually related to North
> Indian languages like Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi and Gujarati).
>
> It uses two makams (melodic modes), both on A: Saba, A Bd C Db E F G Ab B
C,
> and Bayati, A Bd C D E F G A. Both use a neutral second, the B half-flat.
>
> The usul (rhythm) is called karsilama, and is Turkish, but also found in a
> lot of music of the Balkans and Middle East, including Romani/Gypsy music.
> It's in 9/8, but instead of 3+3+3, it's 2+2+2+3. Brubeck's "Blue Rondo a
la
> Turk" uses the same rhythm in much of the tune.
>
> ~D.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "johngilbert3x" <preciousatonement@gmail.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:13 PM
> Subject: [tuning] ears for scale? youtube recording
>
>
> > Hi tuning,
> >
> > I have found a great video on YouTube and I'm pretty for sure it is a
> > microtuned one. It's not extremely "exotic" my guess is 3/4 tones, but
> > since you guys are intelligent to know exactly, that's what I want to
> > know. I want to tune up to this and jam like that. It's a bulgarian
> > gypsy pop song if you're hetro male then it is for you.
> > http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKp90Di6Xk
> >
> >
> > I still think the song is really fly regardless
>
>

Hi Danny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:

re:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZfKp90Di6Xk

>
> > The usul (rhythm) is called karsilama, and is Turkish,
> > but also found in a lot of music of the Balkans and
> > Middle East, including Romani/Gypsy music. It's in 9/8,
> > but instead of 3+3+3, it's 2+2+2+3. Brubeck's "Blue
> > Rondo a la Turk" uses the same rhythm in much of the tune.
>
> Correction: it's actually written karsilama, and is
> pronounced (vaguely) "kar-shih-lah-mah". It's used a LOT
> in Greek music.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kar%C5%9F%C4%B1lama

Another correction: The rhythm of this Bulgarian tune
is actually an even more interesting subdivision of 9/8:
what, Tonescape's list of pre-programmed time-signatures,
i call "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+5".

Actually, the rhythm of the Bulgarian tune in the video
is even more sophisticated than that, because the 5=3+2
really feels more like two separate measures, one of 3
and one of 2, so that the meter is really a weird kind
of 3 where the first beat has four pulses, the second
beat has 3 pulses, and the last beat has 2 pulses -
"9:2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2" would be the correct way of doing
it in Tonescape, if i had it on the list (... next release).

I am *really* into Bulgarian folk music (and i like this
city-slicker wedding-band stuff too, because these guys
can really jam on the clarinet). Back in college, when
i first got into it, i had a close friend from Istanbul
who always picked a fight with me and called it "Turkish
folk music". The history of Bulgaria is very closely linked
with that of the Ottoman Empire, so i never doubted the
cultural interchange ... it was just funny how she would
get so pissed off when i called it "Bulgarian".

What i did most in this video, beside that cool meter,
is the instrument the old man is playing: it's a clarinet
missing the lower joint! I thought he was holding the bell
because he used his hand to cover the opening to get a
microtonally flatter pitch, and he is doing that. But
when i looked closer i could see that he *had* to hold
the bell or it would fall off! Being a clarinetist myself,
i'm going to try that and see if i can figure out what
tuning is coming out. Crazy!

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

oops ...

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:

> what, Tonescape's list of pre-programmed time-signatures,
> i call "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+5".

that first line is supposed to say 'what, in Tonescape's list ..."
and the time-signature looks better with another space:
"9: 2+2+3+2 as 4+5".

> "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2" would be the correct way of doing

Same deal: "9: 2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2".

> What i did most in this video,

uhh ... that's: "What i *dig* most in this video..." --
didn't want to give the mistaken impression that i had
anything to do with it.

And while the old lady doesn't do anything for me,
i think all 8 of the younger girls are hot.

But that old man playing 2/3 of a clarinet is what
makes it worth watching for me.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

monz schrieb:

> What i did most in this video, beside that cool meter,
> is the instrument the old man is playing: it's a clarinet
> missing the lower joint! I thought he was holding the bell
> because he used his hand to cover the opening to get a
> microtonally flatter pitch, and he is doing that. But
> when i looked closer i could see that he *had* to hold
> the bell or it would fall off! Being a clarinetist myself,
> i'm going to try that and see if i can figure out what
> tuning is coming out. Crazy!

I was going to ask around if this wah-wah clarinet really exists, it seems to fit so well and the bell looks appropriate for an (assumed) Bb clarinet. If you use it with the bell for an Eb clarinet, it more or less keeps in place - but it looks too small for the Bb joint and doesn't leave enough space for the right hand levers to move. And yes, all the fingered intervals are "expanded".

Actually, I think the guy was just fooling around for the video.

klaus

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> oops ...
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@> wrote:
>
> > what, Tonescape's list of pre-programmed time-signatures,
> > i call "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+5".
>
>
> that first line is supposed to say 'what, in Tonescape's list ..."
> and the time-signature looks better with another space:
> "9: 2+2+3+2 as 4+5".
>
>
>
> > "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2" would be the correct way of doing
>
>
> Same deal: "9: 2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2".

What's actually going on is that both the "4" and "5"
subdivisions have accents on the first and fourth pulse,
where the fourth pulse is an accent pickup. But because
the last one is 2 pulses long instead of one, it makes
the whole pattern lopsided ... and way cool.

Here's the accent pattern:

> > > >
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

(on the stupid Yahoo web interface, use "Option"
and "Use fixed width font" to see it correctly)

> But that old man playing 2/3 of a clarinet is what
> makes it worth watching for me.

Actually he's not really that old. Anyway, note that
the editor spliced some of the video of the 2/3-clarinet
playing on top of some synthesizer jamming in the
earlier parts of the song. The real clarinet solos
are at:

3:24 - (regular clarinet with some microtones),
3:34 - the 2/3-clarinet solo i love,
4:18 - regular clarinet solo with microtones

Unfortunately (ok, i guess it depends on your point
of view) during some parts of the 2/3-clarinet solo
the editor cut in scenes of the cutest girl's butt
in tight jeans, so i can't see what he's doing.

You gotta love it when an inspired musician coaxes
a new tuning system out of his instrument by abusing
it like this. I think Harry Partch would be happy.

> The history of Bulgaria is very closely linked
> with that of the Ottoman Empire, so i never doubted the
> cultural interchange ...

I can also see the strong connection with Bollywood films.
Yes, the "gypsys" (Roma people) have their ancestral
roots in India.

It's amazing how long these musical materials
(rhythms, styles, tunings, scales, etc.) have lasted,
from the most ancient cultures in India, Egypt, and Sumer,
down to today.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Klaus Schmirler <KSchmir@...> wrote:
>
> monz schrieb:
>
> > What i did most in this video, beside that cool meter,
> > is the instrument the old man is playing: it's a clarinet
> > missing the lower joint!
>
> <snip>
> Actually, I think the guy was just fooling around for the video.

That could be. There is one place near the end of his solo
where some low notes are played, but otherwise the rest of
his solo falls within the range of a 6th, which can be done
with only the upper joint of a clarinet, giving notes from
middle-C to A above as written for the clarinet (and in
concert pitch, whatever transposition is appropriate for
the size clarinet this supper joint comes from). It looks
to me like he's actually playing that solo on the 2/3-clarinet,
and that he might be getting the low notes by skillful covering
of the bell opening. I'll have to try it and see what happens.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

Ozan Yarman wrote:

> Danny is an excellent observer. The maqams and the ousul seem correct. For > a
> more refined tuning, however, choose 72-EDO or 79/80 MOS 159-tET.

Thanks, and It would definitely be more refined than the 24-edo the song is probably in since it uses a keyboard. (But you can tweak the scale buttons on an Oriental keyboard to shift a note something other than -50 cents.)

And as Monz said, the rhythm may not be 2+2+2+3; I had a little trouble finding the 1 at times. It's definitely 9/8 though, but I had assumed it was a Turkish rhythm rather than Bulgarian.

> I can discern some Turkish words in the song. "Sevgili", for instance, > means
> "lover".

There are a whole bunch of Romani dialects and they all have a lot of loan words from many languages. The Muslim Roma groups of the Balkans would have more Turkish vocabulary, similar to how Bosnian differs in its vocabulary from Serbian and Croatian.

I recognized one common Romani word, "droma", which I think means "way" or "road". It's a word of Greek origin.

(The "partial clarinet" did look like a D or E-flat soprano. I've heard of "piccolo" clarinets, one octave above a B-flat soprano, being used by Gypsy and Klezmer bands. Now I wish I still had my clarinet from high school.)

~D.

And a word in farsi as "Bi Bi" which means "Matron , Grandmother".

Shaahin Mohajeri

Tombak Player & Researcher , Microtonal Composer

My web site?? ???? ????? ??????

My farsi page in Harmonytalk ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ???

Shaahin Mohajeri in Wikipedia ????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ????

-----Original Message-----
From: tuning@yahoogroups.com [mailto:tuning@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Danny Wier
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 4:23 PM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [tuning] ears for scale? youtube recording

Ozan Yarman wrote:

> Danny is an excellent observer. The maqams and the ousul seem correct.
> For a more refined tuning, however, choose 72-EDO or 79/80 MOS
> 159-tET.

Thanks, and It would definitely be more refined than the 24-edo the song is probably in since it uses a keyboard. (But you can tweak the scale buttons on an Oriental keyboard to shift a note something other than -50 cents.)

And as Monz said, the rhythm may not be 2+2+2+3; I had a little trouble finding the 1 at times. It's definitely 9/8 though, but I had assumed it was a Turkish rhythm rather than Bulgarian.

> I can discern some Turkish words in the song. "Sevgili", for instance,
> means "lover".

There are a whole bunch of Romani dialects and they all have a lot of loan words from many languages. The Muslim Roma groups of the Balkans would have more Turkish vocabulary, similar to how Bosnian differs in its vocabulary from Serbian and Croatian.

I recognized one common Romani word, "droma", which I think means "way" or "road". It's a word of Greek origin.

(The "partial clarinet" did look like a D or E-flat soprano. I've heard of "piccolo" clarinets, one octave above a B-flat soprano, being used by Gypsy and Klezmer bands. Now I wish I still had my clarinet from high school.)

~D.

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Hi Danny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Wier" <dawiertx@...> wrote:

> And as Monz said, the rhythm may not be 2+2+2+3; I had
> a little trouble finding the 1 at times. It's definitely
> 9/8 though, but I had assumed it was a Turkish rhythm
> rather than Bulgarian.

It's definitely 2+2+3+2 consistently thru the whole song,
with the accent pattern i posted yesterday: accents on
1,4,5,8.

> (The "partial clarinet" did look like a D or E-flat
> soprano. I've heard of "piccolo" clarinets, one octave
> above a B-flat soprano, being used by Gypsy and Klezmer
> bands. Now I wish I still had my clarinet from high school.)

The Gypsy and Klezmer bands are pretty much the only
musicians who use those little clarinets. But this is
not one of them -- it is clearly what i said: from the
top down, it's the mouthpiece, barrel, upper joint, and
bell of either a regular Bb clarinet, or possibly a
C or Eb. The guy has to hold the bell on because it's a
little too big to fit onto the bottom of the upper joint.

My guess is that it's probably from a C clarinet, because
even in its partial state it looks smaller than a regular
Bb clarinet. And i think C clarinets are still pretty
common among rural musicians in that part of the world.
I've bought a bunch of them real cheap on Ebay.

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:

> It's definitely 2+2+3+2 consistently thru the whole song,
> with the accent pattern i posted yesterday: accents on
> 1,4,5,8.

The secret of it is, 2 and 3 aren't really 2 and 3, not exactly- it's
short and long, or quick and slow. So you can have a 5 that is in a
strange way a kind of 2, one short one long, etc. etc.

Can't remember which book it is in the university library here, but
there's a description of this widespread phenomenon. When sequencing
MIDI, you can get the long/short feeling by using the theoretical 2
and 3 patterns, then tweaking by hand "snap off", and using tons of
little adjustments in the tempo line.

Hi Cameron,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@> wrote:
>
> > It's definitely 2+2+3+2 consistently thru the whole song,
> > with the accent pattern i posted yesterday: accents on
> > 1,4,5,8.
>
>
> The secret of it is, 2 and 3 aren't really 2 and 3, not
> exactly- it's short and long, or quick and slow. So you
> can have a 5 that is in a strange way a kind of 2, one
> short one long, etc. etc.

Actually i already said something like this in this thread:

/tuning/topicId_72509.html#72520

>> "... the meter is really a weird kind
>> of 3 where the first beat has four pulses, the
>> second beat has 3 pulses, and the last beat has
>> 2 pulses - "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2" ..."

I take note of what you say, that it's not *exactly*
pulses of 2 and 3 ... but in this kind of Bulgarian and
Turkish music the meters are actually much closer to
divisions of 2 and 3 than the "sloppy" rhythms of
American-style swing meters -- i.e., the American
rhythms are much more "in-between".

-monz
http://tonalsoft.com
Tonescape microtonal music software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Cameron,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Cameron Bobro" <misterbobro@>
wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@> wrote:
> >
> > > It's definitely 2+2+3+2 consistently thru the whole song,
> > > with the accent pattern i posted yesterday: accents on
> > > 1,4,5,8.
> >
> >
> > The secret of it is, 2 and 3 aren't really 2 and 3, not
> > exactly- it's short and long, or quick and slow. So you
> > can have a 5 that is in a strange way a kind of 2, one
> > short one long, etc. etc.
>
>
> Actually i already said something like this in this thread:
>
> /tuning/topicId_72509.html#72520
>
> >> "... the meter is really a weird kind
> >> of 3 where the first beat has four pulses, the
> >> second beat has 3 pulses, and the last beat has
> >> 2 pulses - "9:2+2+3+2 as 4+3+2" ..."
>
>
> I take note of what you say, that it's not *exactly*
> pulses of 2 and 3 ... but in this kind of Bulgarian and
> Turkish music the meters are actually much closer to
> divisions of 2 and 3 than the "sloppy" rhythms of
> American-style swing meters -- i.e., the American
> rhythms are much more "in-between".

Not just Bulgarian and Turkish, but throughout the Balkans.
Yes, it's a different concept altogether, more like, I decided
after carefully trying different ways of analytically counting at a
concert by these guys
http://www.piranha.de/records/english/artists/art_boban.htm
(not as good as unknowns I've heard, but still great) that it's
along the lines of the Indian approach...

" On 5, do not clap, move your right hand away to the right instead,
leaving this beat empty..." (from a primer on Indian rhythm)

that kind of thing, internalized and... socialized? (a couple of
weeks ago I was in
a bar, several dozen people clapping the "fourish" five exactly,
it's effortless in a group).

-Cameron Bobro