Re: [tuning] Erv Wilson

Erv Wilson is a composer, and a profound one at that. That he has the luxury to compose for himself is to be envied. I have had the fortune to have listened -- sometimes for several hours at a stretch, when I was tuning up a set of tubulongs at his house -- to his music, experiences that still shake my musical imagination.

I believe that it is precisely Erv's _compositional_ imagination which too often fails to get considered when evaluating his theoretical work. I would guess that for every draughted page he has chosen to release, there are a few hundred which have been discarded. He releases only the schemes in which he hears the most musical potential, a basic compositional decision.

Daniel Wolf
Budapest

Thank you, Dan!

When I met Erv he stated to me that he was NOT a musician or composer, and that I should talk to Kraig Grady, if I wanted to perform microtonal music with others in the LA area.

I soon found out that his musical abilities were far beyond anything I'd ever considered, and if I intended to continue, I would have to raise the bar very high, indeed.

Daniel Wolf <djwolf@snafu.de> wrote:

Erv Wilson is a composer, and a profound one at that. That he has the
luxury to compose for himself is to be envied. I have had the fortune
to have listened -- sometimes for several hours at a stretch, when I was
tuning up a set of tubulongs at his house -- to his music, experiences
that still shake my musical imagination.

I believe that it is precisely Erv's _compositional_ imagination which
too often fails to get considered when evaluating his theoretical work.
I would guess that for every draughted page he has chosen to release,
there are a few hundred which have been discarded. He releases only the
schemes in which he hears the most musical potential, a basic
compositional decision.

Daniel Wolf
Budapest

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I hope I have a chance in this life to spend a few hours, days, or
weeks in total silence in Erv's presence, to absorb a glimpse of his
music and/or wisdom. Daniel Wolf suggested on another list that I
meet with Erv sometime and I plan to orient my next trip out West
around him, if this turns out to be doable. If so, I have a feeling
it will impact my life as profoundly as it has yours.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Pete McRae <ambassadorbob@y...> wrote:
> Thank you, Dan!
>
> When I met Erv he stated to me that he was NOT a musician or
composer, and that I should talk to Kraig Grady, if I wanted to
perform microtonal music with others in the LA area.
>
> I soon found out that his musical abilities were far beyond
anything I'd ever considered, and if I intended to continue, I would
have to raise the bar very high, indeed.
>
> Daniel Wolf <djwolf@s...> wrote:
>
> Erv Wilson is a composer, and a profound one at that. That he has
the
> luxury to compose for himself is to be envied. I have had the
fortune
> to have listened -- sometimes for several hours at a stretch, when
I was
> tuning up a set of tubulongs at his house -- to his music,
experiences
> that still shake my musical imagination.
>
> I believe that it is precisely Erv's _compositional_ imagination
which
> too often fails to get considered when evaluating his theoretical
work.
> I would guess that for every draughted page he has chosen to
release,
> there are a few hundred which have been discarded. He releases only
the
> schemes in which he hears the most musical potential, a basic
> compositional decision.
>
>
> Daniel Wolf
> Budapest
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
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> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
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> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
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> ---------------------------------
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> I hope I have a chance in this life to spend a few hours, days, or
> weeks in total silence in Erv's presence, to absorb a glimpse of his
> music and/or wisdom.

Geez, if you do please don't sit there silently gawping. Ask some
questions.

Hi Daniel-

so is it the case that there are no extant recordings of any of his music?
If so, could you at least describe it ("it sounded a little like..., but
more...,using alot of..., etc")?

thanks

Dante

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Daniel Wolf [mailto:djwolf@snafu.de]
>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:48 AM
>To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [tuning] Erv Wilson
>
>
>
>Erv Wilson is a composer, and a profound one at that. That he has the
>luxury to compose for himself is to be envied. I have had the fortune
>to have listened -- sometimes for several hours at a stretch, when I was
>tuning up a set of tubulongs at his house -- to his music, experiences
>that still shake my musical imagination.
>
>I believe that it is precisely Erv's _compositional_ imagination which
>too often fails to get considered when evaluating his theoretical work.
>I would guess that for every draughted page he has chosen to release,
>there are a few hundred which have been discarded. He releases only the
>schemes in which he hears the most musical potential, a basic
>compositional decision.
>
>
>Daniel Wolf
>Budapest
>
>
>
>You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
>of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

It's not about that. It's about the man, himself. So, if the talk is about cooking, or planting, or how your car is running, just do it and enjoy it.
It's quite engaging, really. But he knows things you're probably not going to know, so just accept them.

If that's mysticism, I'm sorry, I guess it is, but may I say? I was duly awed.

Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com> wrote:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
wrote:
>
> I hope I have a chance in this life to spend a few hours, days, or
> weeks in total silence in Erv's presence, to absorb a glimpse of his
> music and/or wisdom.

Geez, if you do please don't sit there silently gawping. Ask some
questions.

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Yahoo! Groups Links

---------------------------------
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Pete McRae <ambassadorbob@y...> wrote:

> It's quite engaging, really. But he knows things you're probably
not going to know, so just accept them.

I know huge numbers of things you will never, ever have even a clue
about, and you don't seem to be getting silently mystical in my
e-presence. Anyone who has a lot of specialist knowledge can say the
same. Do you ever get on a university campus, and if so do you stagger
everywhere in dumbfounded amazement--"She can read Akkadian! He can
tell you vast numbers of things you don't want to know about nematodes!"

<<Do you ever get on a university campus...>>

All too often, unfortunately...

To the extent that I stagger around in amazement, I think it's
mostly on account of the incredible arrogance it (the university)
exhibits.

I'm sure you're quite amazing, too.

Cheers,

-P

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "ambassadorbob" <ambassadorbob@y...> wrote:

> To the extent that I stagger around in amazement, I think it's
> mostly on account of the incredible arrogance it (the university)
> exhibits.

You've told everyone on this list that any music they may write is
trash, yet you think academics are arrogant??

the picture you have painted of him Carl is his work is something you and the rest of your cronies could have done, if only you were alive at the time.
Oh a accidental hexany, without any insight to the possibilities, like leading to the eikosany ?
i await your dismissal of the Scales of Mt meru as simple addition you could have done.
> From: Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>
>
>
> >
>
>Right, and that's pure Erv, it's not on accident. In his 2001 talk
>at Microfest, he spent more than 50% of his talk warning and making
>disclaimers that his language should not be taken seriously. 'These
>words are words that I've used, and you may like other words better,'
>'I looked at it this way, and I hope that you will find your own way,'
>etc. etc. The picture of Erv painted on these lists (as I see it)
>is not a remotely accurate one. Erv's thinking is delicate,
>sensitive, and innocent.
>
>-Carl
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 22 > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2005 00:14:11 -0000
> From: "ambassadorbob" <ambassadorbob@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Erv Wilson
>
>
><<Do you ever get on a university campus...>>
>
>All too often, unfortunately...
>
>To the extent that I stagger around in amazement, I think it's >mostly on account of the incredible arrogance it (the university) >exhibits.
>
>I'm sure you're quite amazing, too.
>
>Cheers,
>
>-P
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 23 > Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:00:05 -0000
> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: new member question from a theory class
>
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
> >
>>hi Paul,
>>
>>
>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" >><wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>>
>> >> >>
>>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@t...> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>but in any case, yes, i suppose i could agree to change
>>>>what i wrote to "odd", because it doesn't affect my point,
>>>>which is that when i hear ratios of 13, 17, 19, 23, etc.,
>>>>they don't seem to add anything distinctively new to the
>>>>harmonic fabric that's not already there if 11 is being used
>>>>-- *unless the musical context places some special emphasis
>>>>on them* !!
>>>> >>>>
>>>Can you hear this distinct 11-ness even if no ratios
>>>within the 11-odd-limit are used? If so, which >>>extended-11-limit ratios evoke it?
>>> >>>
>>as i just wrote in another post which you quoted:
>>/tuning/topicId_57195.html#57299
>>
>> >>
>>>>" i find that a fairly small 11-limit periodicity-block
>>>>contains sounds which audibly approximate ratios of any
>>>>higher prime-limit."
>>>> >>>>
>>so i'm not really talking about *extended*-11-limit,
>> >>
>
>If you're not talking about 11-odd-limit (that is, the set of ratios >in Partch's diamond), but about any 11-prime-limit ratios outside >that, you're talking about "extended 11-limit", in Partch's >terminology.
>
> >
>>and i'm also not really saying that there's a "distinct
>>11-ness" ... in fact quite the opposite: that the
>>distinctness of a prime-factor diminishes as the number
>>becomes larger.
>> >>
>
>You seemed to be saying above that primes 13 and above don't add >anything distinctively new to the harmonic fabric. So I took that to >mean that prime 11 does. This is what I'm asking you about. I won't >be upset if you change your mind -- I'm just asking you what you >hear/feel/find that was behind these statements of yours.
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>Message: 24 > Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 17:41:16 -0800
> From: Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>
>Subject: Re: new member question from a theory class
>
>While the possibility of running across a hexany as an octahedron, at >this point all limited to the 1-3-5-7, it is a great leap of vision in >order to get to the eikosany which really is your first extensive CPS >structure one might use in an extended possibility. There are other ways >also to map to an octahedron that do not involve the 2 out of 4 set >where the products are reduced into a single point in the set. The >former was done by Fuller for one who made a big to do over it
>I am quite aware of being a lunatic, but all true beginnings always look >like madness. Still i await a concrete example of combination product >sets as such.
> the discovery of this was not some accidental discovery. Erv has stated >that the moon flights were instrumental in conceiving of such weightless >structures. In retrospect salso he has pointed out to me the diagram on >Page 123 of Partch's Genesis of a Music ( a book he did quite a few of >the diagrams for) and finds that possibly this chart might have halso >had an influence on him if one thinks for these as a product into tones >instead of triads. Regardless , it takes something to realize the >signigance of this structure and what it can do musically. In order to >let those not familiar with the extent and in depth development and >understanding of trhe Combination product sets i refer the readers to >the section in the Wilson archive
> being the fourth section under the header
>
>http://www.anaphoria.com/wilson.html
> This still awaits all the papers on the hebdomekontany which have not >been put up yet
>
>
>Also for some applications i have papers of my own
>http://anaphoria.com/eikopapers.html
> > >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

>the picture you have painted of him Carl is his work is something you
>and the rest of your cronies could have done, if only you were alive at
>the time.

And you see that as impossible.

> Oh a accidental hexany, without any insight to the possibilities,
> like leading to the eikosany ?
> i await your dismissal of the Scales of Mt meru as simple addition
> you could have done.

You're projecting things on me quite without reason, Kraig.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> the picture you have painted of him Carl is his work is something you
> and the rest of your cronies could have done, if only you were alive at
> the time.

Roasting people for not discovering the Eikosany makes as little sense
as calling Wilson stupid for not discovering the lattice of tetrads,
which so far as I know he never did. Setting up a cult of personality
is one thing, but carrying it to the point that you and McRae feel you
have to insult other workers is quite another. Do you think Erv would
endorse this kind of crap?

> Oh a accidental hexany, without any insight to the possibilities, like
> leading to the eikosany ?

I saw possibilities that Erv did not, and vice-versa. And so what?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@c...>
> wrote:
> > You've told everyone on this list that any music they may write is
> > trash
>
> I think "everyone" would be interested to see if you could come up
> with the post where Pete said exactly that.

/tuning/topicId_57195.html#57355

>Gene's pieces are above average for these lists.

That's pretty bad. (Sorry... ;-)

Pete is saying that even if I am above average, I still write crap,
because on these lists what people write is crap.

hi Paul,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> I hope I have a chance in this life to spend a few hours,
> days, or weeks in total silence in Erv's presence, to absorb
> a glimpse of his music and/or wisdom. Daniel Wolf suggested
> on another list that I meet with Erv sometime and I plan to
> orient my next trip out West around him, if this turns out
> to be doable. If so, I have a feeling it will impact my life
> as profoundly as it has yours [Pete McRae's].

i bet it will. wish i had more time to visit with Erv.

at any rate, i hope you can make this a long trip and
make a good long visit with *me* while you're out here!
it'd be great to see you again, talk shop, and jam!

-monz

Gene,

First off, I actually didn't mean to send that post: I sat there and
looked at it and decided I didn't need to add to the mess. And I
thought I cancelled, but it showed up on the web 4 hours later. So I
deleted it, and only people who get the list via email saw it. Like
you. Well, I tried, but the genie outta the bottle, etc.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@c...>
wrote:
> Pete is saying that even if I am above average, I still write crap,
> because on these lists what people write is crap.

No, he didn't say that at all, and you just showed that he didn't. If
you were as sloppy with your math as you are with your language, you
wouldn't get anywhere. He may not like your stuff much, and the rest
of the stuff from these lists, but he never said it was "trash" or "crap".

I'm reminded of something you once wrote: "This kind of sloppiness
annoys me; to other people it is nit-picking."
- Gene Ward Smith

Jon

I can read Arabic and can you a lot of things about quasars and supernovas, but I don't see anyone astonished at my e-presence... ;)
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 09 Mart 2005 Çarşamba 0:21
Subject: [tuning] Re: Erv Wilson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Pete McRae <ambassadorbob@y...> wrote:

> It's quite engaging, really. But he knows things you're probably
not going to know, so just accept them.

I know huge numbers of things you will never, ever have even a clue
about, and you don't seem to be getting silently mystical in my
e-presence. Anyone who has a lot of specialist knowledge can say the
same. Do you ever get on a university campus, and if so do you stagger
everywhere in dumbfounded amazement--"She can read Akkadian! He can
tell you vast numbers of things you don't want to know about nematodes!"

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> Gene,
>
> First off, I actually didn't mean to send that post: I sat there and
> looked at it and decided I didn't need to add to the mess. And I
> thought I cancelled, but it showed up on the web 4 hours later.

It's now gone on the web.

> No, he didn't say that at all, and you just showed that he didn't. If
> you were as sloppy with your math as you are with your language, you
> wouldn't get anywhere. He may not like your stuff much, and the rest
> of the stuff from these lists, but he never said it was "trash" or
"crap".

He said "pretty bad", which is more or less the same.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> I can read Arabic and can you a lot of things about quasars and
supernovas, but I don't see anyone astonished at my e-presence... ;)

Maybe they should be; if you want to fill us in on music theory
translated from Arabic I think a lot of people would be all ears. Are
you an astronomer by trade?

They really should not be (astonished), unless I can impress them with my music, which I don't claim to have any skills for.

Don't get me wrong, I can read the Quran in Arabic script, and can discern many other words written in plain Arabic, but that does not help me understand Arabic any more than Ottoman. Nevertheless I take pride in my oratorial skills in other languages (transliterated in latin).

There are several treatises in Arabic awaiting translation at the moment though. This calls for a scholarly teamwork. I stand ready to do an analysis on any treatise once its fully and correctly prepared in either English or Turkish.

BTW, I'm an astronomy fan and have here a huge atlas of astronomy relased by the Cambridge University that I can refer to. In regards to music, I was very intrigued by the solor scale. Fascinating, how the planets are aligned...

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 09 Mart 2005 Çarşamba 11:30
Subject: [tuning] Re: Erv Wilson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Ozan Yarman" <ozanyarman@s...> wrote:

> I can read Arabic and can you a lot of things about quasars and
supernovas, but I don't see anyone astonished at my e-presence... ;)

Maybe they should be; if you want to fill us in on music theory
translated from Arabic I think a lot of people would be all ears. Are
you an astronomer by trade?

let us refresh ourselves. some of your friends attributed you as having invented the CPS idea before Erv. this is not something you do did, but they put this forth. Granted the idea of the stellate hexany as one can see from Erv letter to Charmers shows how easy this could be. In order for others to claim this for you, we expect some demonstration of the entire idea, not just a piece of it , which granted is something one can congratulate you with. It is the spirit in which it is done that independently raises the eyebrows of not just us two BTW. Often Erv has me put up things for the very purpose of preventing people from claiming some short fall in his ideas, or just in reaction to the constant. well he didn't do this etc.. Usually this comes in its origin not from communications from me but others to him directly. More often i do not know the source. Before the creation of the Archives , quite a few of his papers were plagiarized.
I am full aware that you see all type of things that Erv does not. In fact your choice of problems to solve are quite different that the once he wishes to address. The value of your work stands where it is ,not in comparison with him, which seems inappropriate and unfruitful.
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@coolgoose.com>
Subject: Re: Erv Wilson

Roasting people for not discovering the Eikosany makes as little sense
as calling Wilson stupid for not discovering the lattice of tetrads,
which so far as I know he never did. Setting up a cult of personality
is one thing, but carrying it to the point that you and McRae feel you
have to insult other workers is quite another. Do you think Erv would
endorse this kind of crap? >> Oh a accidental hexany, without any insight to the possibilities, like >> leading to the eikosany ?
> >

I saw possibilities that Erv did not, and vice-versa. And so what? -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> let us refresh ourselves. some of your friends attributed you as
having invented the CPS idea before Erv. this is not something you do
did, but they put this forth.

"They" did not. Paul made a mistake, which is no big deal unless you
want to turn it into one.

>Granted the idea of the stellate hexany as one can see from Erv
letter to Charmers shows how easy this could be. In order for others
to claim this for you, we expect some demonstration of the entire
idea, not just a piece of it , which granted is something one can
congratulate you with. It is the spirit in which it is done that
independently raises the eyebrows of not just us two BTW.

What's the "whole idea" you are talking about? A "whole idea" whose
history I would find interesting is who first considered a symmetrical
face-centered cubic lattice of 7-limit octave classes. Did Erv do
that, and when? What about a cubic lattice of tetrads? What about a
hexagonal tiling of triads? Without having a history of these, we
cannot properly acknowledge precedence.

> Often Erv has me put up things for the very purpose of preventing
people from claiming some short fall in his ideas, or just in reaction
to the constant. well he didn't do this etc.. Usually this comes in
its origin not from communications from me but others to him directly.
More often i do not know the source. Before the creation of the
Archives , quite a few of his papers were plagiarized.

Plagerized how, and by whom?

> I am full aware that you see all type of things that Erv does not.
In fact your choice of problems to solve are quite different that the
once he wishes to address. The value of your work stands where it is
,not in comparison with him, which seems inappropriate and unfruitful.

I did not start this business. If you find it distasteful, I suggest
not drawing the comparison.

If you are in regular communication with Erv, or if someone else knows
how to reach him, I think it would be interesting to hear what work he
has done on symmetrical lattices. Specific statements rather than
drawings would be best for me.

>If you are in regular communication with Erv, or if someone else knows
>how to reach him, I think it would be interesting to hear what work he
>has done on symmetrical lattices. Specific statements rather than
>drawings would be best for me.

The thing is, Erv thinks in a very organic way. Specific statements
are not something he's really capable of. He arrived at his lattices
completely intuitively. It's a bit misguided to try to pin him down.
I speak from experience... I went with the idea of interrogating him,
and came back with something a lot more fun than answers.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@c...>

/tuning/topicId_57325.html#57375

wrote:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith"
<genewardsmith@c...>
> > wrote:
> > > You've told everyone on this list that any music they may write
is
> > > trash
> >
> > I think "everyone" would be interested to see if you could come up
> > with the post where Pete said exactly that.
>
> /tuning/topicId_57195.html#57355
>
> >Gene's pieces are above average for these lists.
>
> That's pretty bad. (Sorry... ;-)
>
> Pete is saying that even if I am above average, I still write crap,
> because on these lists what people write is crap.

***There have been so many different composers on these lists with
widely varying abilities in so many different styles over the years
that a generalization is, indeed, nuts...

J. Pehrson

<>This is not BTW about the work of one person, it is about the work of anyone who others attribute as there own. I have already sighted what to me was another case. To take it off list means if someone claims something of someone else's says here i should not speak up. If someone takes credit and i don't mean by accident, i will speak up, regardless of who it is. JUst as others do all the time

--

Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
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<>This is not BTW about the work of one person, it is about the work of anyone who others attribute as there own. I have already sighted what to me was another case. To take it off list means if someone claims something of someone else's here i should not speak up. If someone takes credit and i don't mean by accident, i will speak up, regardless of who it is.

What's the "whole idea" you are talking about?

the Combination product set and exactly what these words mean.
why don't you just put up the documentation.

For instance look through the first couple of pages of The Greek Aulos, you can see a chart with all the pitches of the diamond, plus some.
But the concept of the diamond is different which is why Partch is given credit. in this regard, since the concept is a crosset of a harmonic set and it inversion, this list of pitches exceeds that.
Who really cares about who used which set of ratios first , the idea is how they are formed and what this formed does.
I have reams of Lattices that i used to pile up with a tracing table by just piling up and filling in space as i felt. It does not even require any mathematics at all, just the shapes and what they stand for.

I did not start this business. If you find it distasteful, I suggest
not drawing the comparison. This comparison was not done by me or Pete either. -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hi Kraig and Gene,

Just a thought about this topic.

In maths the results generally get found by someone or other
sooner or later, most of them anyway though sometimes
a result may be so extraordinary e,.g. making surprising
connections, that you wonder if anyone
else would have found it for many years.

But the proofs are much more creative
and variable. The way the first proof
is done rather shapes the subject to some
extent. Or more generally, the way they
get at the results originally if not particularly
set out as a formal proof.

I think Gene couldn't be expected to come upu with
the geometrical type approach to the CPS
sets since he is after all an algebraicist.
But has his own point of view and
route into the subject. Erv has another.
Some will be inspired by one and some by
the other. Obviously one thinks that the
whoever particularly inspires oneself is
the best. But that doesn't mean others
are wrong if inspired by others to an
equal degree. Clearly many here
are inspired by Gene's approach and
there is nothing wrong about that.
But trying to say which is best
or to win others over to ones own approach
though natural will proably not get one very
far.

Just a thought. (dropping in here momentarily
- I'm travelling at present).

Robert

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Message: 18 One at least wants some form of documentation or example if one is going to claim something almost 40 years ago. Euler already mapped all this territory if it is just a matter of ratios. i too can take eulers diagram and circle a hexany for instance. But this is more like having the answer already and coming up with the question. to equate a correspondence of a centered structure that does not have a tone in common with the structure in question with an uncentered structure which the eikosany is, misses the mark and in mind mind only a very extreme coincidence, even less so than the 1-3-5-7-9-11- genera of euler.
While gene work is quite possible in inspiring other s as you put it. No one even knew about this existence until just the other day, since it did not exist in a form that others could know it. It hardly puts this work in the same category of the hundred or so composers that not only written for the eikosany, but have tuned it up on real instruments in the real world. The comparison does not compare nor at the present rank on the same level of inspiration. History may change that in the future , but for the time being, this irs the reality of the situation. It might be good if on your own site you referred to the hexany as being discovered by Erv Wilson as opposed to a 'structure that some musicians call the hexany'. From: "robertwalker@ntlworld.com" <robertwalker@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Erv Wilson

Hi Kraig and Gene,

Just a thought about this topic.

In maths the results generally get found by someone or other
sooner or later, most of them anyway though sometimes
a result may be so extraordinary e,.g. making surprising
connections, that you wonder if anyone
else would have found it for many years.

But the proofs are much more creative
and variable. The way the first proof
is done rather shapes the subject to some
extent. Or more generally, the way they
get at the results originally if not particularly
set out as a formal proof.

I think Gene couldn't be expected to come upu with
the geometrical type approach to the CPS
sets since he is after all an algebraicist.
But has his own point of view and route into the subject. Erv has another.
Some will be inspired by one and some by
the other. Obviously one thinks that the
whoever particularly inspires oneself is
the best. But that doesn't mean others
are wrong if inspired by others to an
equal degree. Clearly many here
are inspired by Gene's approach and
there is nothing wrong about that.
But trying to say which is best
or to win others over to ones own approach
though natural will proably not get one very
far.

Just a thought. (dropping in here momentarily
- I'm travelling at present).

Robert

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>
> >

--
Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Hi Kraig,

> It might be good if on your own site you referred to the hexany as being
> discovered by Erv Wilson as opposed to a 'structure that some musicians
> call the hexany'.

Thanks for the correction! Not intentional I assure you.

I think it is clear enough here:

http://www.tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/cps.htm

but here I can see it is unclear:

http://www.tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/mus_geom/musical_geometry.htm

"Microtonal composers and theorists call this shape the hexany, because it
has six points"

I'll change that to:

Microtonal composers and theorists call this pattern of notes the hexany,
because it has six points. It was given this name by Erv Wilson who
discovered this way of arranging the pitches and its generalisations such as
the dekany, eikosany etc.

I say that it is this shape as a pattern of notes that they call the
hexany as of course the octahedron itself is an ancient discovery, no-one
knows how old, who knows, may be as old as the cube :-). And occurs
naturally e.g. as a crystal form of diamonds.

I'm just dropping in and don't know what started this discussion, so
perhaps I shouldn't say any more. Thanks for the correction and I'll look
out for it. Be sure to say if you notice anything else.

Or anyone else reading this! - obviously like many in this community
I often miss things posted here and you can e-mail corrections for any
of my web pages to me directly to one of my addresses such as robert at
robertinventor dot com (where at = @ and dot = .) to make sure I see it.

Thanks,

Robert

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Thanks for the correction! Not intentional I assure you.
I didn't think it was I think it is clear enough here:

http://www.tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/cps.htm

but here I can see it is unclear:

http://www.tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/mus_geom/musical_geometry.htm

"Microtonal composers and theorists call this shape the hexany, because it
has six points"

I'll change that to:

Microtonal composers and theorists call this pattern of notes the hexany,
because it has six points. It was given this name by Erv Wilson who
discovered this way of arranging the pitches and its generalisations such as
the dekany, eikosany etc.

I say that it is this shape as a pattern of notes that they call the
hexany as of course the octahedron itself is an ancient discovery, no-one
knows how old, who knows, may be as old as the cube :-) . And occurs
naturally e.g. as a crystal form of diamonds.

It is possible to map tones to the octohedron in many different way. The hexany , being the 2 out of 4 set is analogous to forming the octohedron my tetrads.
Which i havce assumed was bucky fuller discovery, but actually i would be surprised that no one saw it earlier. do you know ( or anyone else? -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

Thanks for the correction! Not intentional I assure you.
I didn't think it was I think it is clear enough here:

http://www.tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/cps.htm

but here I can see it is unclear:

http://www.tunesmithy.netfirms.com/tunes/mus_geom/musical_geometry.htm

"Microtonal composers and theorists call this shape the hexany, because it
has six points"

I'll change that to:

Microtonal composers and theorists call this pattern of notes the hexany,
because it has six points. It was given this name by Erv Wilson who
discovered this way of arranging the pitches and its generalisations such as
the dekany, eikosany etc.

I say that it is this shape as a pattern of notes that they call the
hexany as of course the octahedron itself is an ancient discovery, no-one
knows how old, who knows, may be as old as the cube :-) . And occurs
naturally e.g. as a crystal form of diamonds.

It is possible to map tones to the octohedron in many different way. The hexany , being the 2 out of 4 set is analogous to forming the octohedron my tetrads.
Which i havce assumed was bucky fuller discovery, but actually i would be surprised that no one saw it earlier. do you know ( or anyone else? -- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island <http://anaphoria.com/>
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU <http://www.kxlu.com/main.html> 88.9 FM Wed 8-9 pm Los Angeles

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

> Microtonal composers and theorists call this pattern of notes the
hexany,
> because it has six points. It was given this name by Erv Wilson who
> discovered this way of arranging the pitches and its generalisations
such as
> the dekany, eikosany etc.

When did this happen?

> It is possible to map tones to the octohedron in many different way.
The hexany , being the 2 out of 4 set is analogous to forming the
octohedron my tetrads.
> Which i havce assumed was bucky fuller discovery, but actually i
would be surprised that no one saw it earlier. do you know ( or anyone
else?

I'm not sure what you mean by forming the octahedron by tetrads; do
you mean the stellated octahedron? That idea I believe is due to Kepler.