Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Music of Sacred Temperament

Music of Sacred Temperament the Well Tempered Clavier by J.S.Bach
In the beginning was the Note.
All the Music was made by the Note,
and without the Note was not any music made that was made.
There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light of the Music.
In the daytime, the light was from the sun.
In the night, the shadow was from the stars.
The day was made of twelve hours of daytime and of twelve hours of night.
So was the Music.
The Note was made of twelve tones namely all the tones and semitones.
And sequenced in the major scale or in the minor scale.
The Music was in twenty-four keys, and without them was not any music
that was made.
Anna Magdalena -- Carl Philipp Emanuel -- The Uncertainty -- Johann
Adolph Scheibe

http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/index.html

🔗mocfujita_2000 <Mocfujita@aol.com>

The Uncertainty Principle for music;

In 1916 Einstein published his general theory of relativity. In it he
proposed that gravity is not a force but a curved field in the space-
time continuum that is created by the presence of mass. People were
astonished by the fact that space and time are under relativity. Even
though, the world could stay ease within the determinism where there
was a general algorithmic procedure for resolving all mathematical
questions.
But since Heisenberg's discovery, Isaac Newton's laws of motion has
not been used to predict accurately the behavior of single subatomic
particles. The world was then suffered from this uncertainty. Gödel
gave an additional blow to the people's mental world with the
incompleteness.

Relativity, Uncertainty and Incompleteness!
Wow! We are free from the determinism!

Roger Penrose, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University and a
physicist, now happily says, "We cannot create any kind of new
artistic sensitivity however we may accumulate many times of
calculations. Art is a non-computable physics."

I would like to say, "Music is a non-computable physics, too".

But over the centuries musicians, mathematicians, theorists,
thinkers, experts and amateurs have been suffered from the comma
which is the difference between a perfectly tuned octave and the
octave resulting from a tuned circle of fifths. Many great people
have been trying to create the perfect scale in vain. Mathematics
easily proves that perfection is not possible. Any solution does not
exist. Musicians, especially pianists, have been accused of using the
Equal Temperament for thier pianos because the Equal Temperament is
said to be an anti-musical compromise which leaves each key equally
damaged and none perfectly in tune.

This comma has put a curse on music.

http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcuncertain.html

Iori Fujita

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-topic for the
tuning list.

It seems that these days, we are getting a lot of wacky posts about 'tuning'
in the spiritual sense, and not in the musical sense. Plus posts like this
contain basic information that only the newest of newbies doesn't know, and
is available somewhere else. Moderators?

-A.

On Sunday 20 February 2005 06:34 am, mocfujita_2000 wrote:
> The Uncertainty Principle for music;
>
> In 1916 Einstein published his general theory of relativity. In it he
> proposed that gravity is not a force but a curved field in the space-
> time continuum that is created by the presence of mass. People were
> astonished by the fact that space and time are under relativity. Even
> though, the world could stay ease within the determinism where there
> was a general algorithmic procedure for resolving all mathematical
> questions.
> But since Heisenberg's discovery, Isaac Newton's laws of motion has
> not been used to predict accurately the behavior of single subatomic
> particles. The world was then suffered from this uncertainty. G�del
> gave an additional blow to the people's mental world with the
> incompleteness.
>
> Relativity, Uncertainty and Incompleteness!
> Wow! We are free from the determinism!
>
> Roger Penrose, Professor of Mathematics at Oxford University and a
> physicist, now happily says, "We cannot create any kind of new
> artistic sensitivity however we may accumulate many times of
> calculations. Art is a non-computable physics."
>
> I would like to say, "Music is a non-computable physics, too".
>
> But over the centuries musicians, mathematicians, theorists,
> thinkers, experts and amateurs have been suffered from the comma
> which is the difference between a perfectly tuned octave and the
> octave resulting from a tuned circle of fifths. Many great people
> have been trying to create the perfect scale in vain. Mathematics
> easily proves that perfection is not possible. Any solution does not
> exist. Musicians, especially pianists, have been accused of using the
> Equal Temperament for thier pianos because the Equal Temperament is
> said to be an anti-musical compromise which leaves each key equally
> damaged and none perfectly in tune.
>
> This comma has put a curse on music.
>
> http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcuncertain.html
>
> Iori Fujita
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
> of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--
Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗novosonic productions <novosonic@yahoo.com>

yeah i agree, but for different reason, so i'm going eleswhere.

--- "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@comcast.net> wrote:

>
> I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-topic for
> the
> tuning list.
>
> It seems that these days, we are getting a lot of wacky posts about
> 'tuning'
> in the spiritual sense, and not in the musical sense. Plus posts like this
> contain basic information that only the newest of newbies doesn't know, and
>
> is available somewhere else. Moderators?
>
> -A.
>

=====
***** get free microtonal mp3s here *****
http://home.comcast.net/~gregmcleod/SOUND_FILES.htm

microtonal music of buzz kimball -international lo bandwidth site
http://home.comcast.net/~gregmcleod/novosonic.html

http://www.nonoctave.com/heroes/buzz
http://psychevanhetfolk.homestead.com/expmu2.html

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

> I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-topic for
> the tuning list.

As it happens, many people are interested in alternate tunings for
numerological or spiritual reasons.

> It seems that these days, we are getting a lot of wacky posts about
> 'tuning' in the spiritual sense, and not in the musical sense.

Are we getting a lot? I hadn't noticed.

> Plus posts like this contain basic information that only the newest
> of newbies doesn't know,

Maybe this person is a newbie, and doesn't know that. Maybe also
the post suffered from some translation problems.

-Carl

🔗Pete McRae <ambassadorbob@yahoo.com>

This subject heading is precisely the kind of facile dismissals we don't need any more of around here, and I would hope that anyone who doesn't flood my inbox with nastiness or drivel is free to preach his or her gospel, here too, if it's about tuning.

If I were to count the irrelevancies to a direct question here, I'd find a lot more of those than the odd self-promotion, or some deluge of nonsense from a tuner with an 'axe' to grind. :-) hee!

I think the moderator's doing just fine, from what I can see!

Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org> wrote:

> I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-topic for
> the tuning list.

As it happens, many people are interested in alternate tunings for
numerological or spiritual reasons.

> It seems that these days, we are getting a lot of wacky posts about
> 'tuning' in the spiritual sense, and not in the musical sense.

Are we getting a lot? I hadn't noticed.

> Plus posts like this contain basic information that only the newest
> of newbies doesn't know,

Maybe this person is a newbie, and doesn't know that. Maybe also
the post suffered from some translation problems.

-Carl

You can configure your subscription by sending an empty email to one
of these addresses (from the address at which you receive the list):
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - leave the group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - turn off mail from the group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - set group to send daily digests.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - set group to send individual emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Yahoo! Groups Links

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. Learn more.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Come now Aaron, metaphysical connotations aren't that horrible. Our maqam culture is loaded with sciomancy when it comes to astro-horological correlation of scales with the zodiac and the elements along with their medicinal benefits. It is a relief to see that symbolic occultism is not uncommon in the West.

Sincerely,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron K. Johnson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 Şubat 2005 Salı 7:10
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

On Monday 21 February 2005 04:34 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-topic for
> > the tuning list.
>
> As it happens, many people are interested in alternate tunings for
> numerological or spiritual reasons.

Maybe so, but it's certainly not part of the description of the group on the
homepage.Unless one liberally reads 'etcetera' to mean such stuff....
And I'll cancel my subscription if it ends up being added.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

hi Aaron,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> On Monday 21 February 2005 04:34 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> >
> > > I would say that such metaphysical speculation is
> > > *really* off-topic for the tuning list.
> >
> > As it happens, many people are interested in alternate
> > tunings for numerological or spiritual reasons.
>
> Maybe so, but it's certainly not part of the description
> of the group on the homepage.Unless one liberally reads
> 'etcetera' to mean such stuff....
> And I'll cancel my subscription if it ends up being added.

there actually used to be a "spiritual-tuning" list, whose
whole reason for existence was discussions of this type.
unfortunately, the list owner (don't remember who it was)
deleted the whole group.

and for stuff that deals with the intersection of tuning theory
and cosmology, i run the celestial-tuning list.

-monz

🔗domilare <domilare@wanadoo.fr>

A "relief" ???

"Symbolic occultism" we can do without, particularly regarding tuning. This is not the Turkey we admire and expect to join Europe.

D. Larré
----- Original Message -----
From: Ozan Yarman
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

Sincerely,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron K. Johnson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 Şubat 2005 Salı 7:10
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Get unlimited calls to

U.S./Canada

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
/tuning/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Tuesday 22 February 2005 12:31 am, Ozan Yarman wrote:
> Come now Aaron, metaphysical connotations aren't that horrible. Our maqam
> culture is loaded with sciomancy when it comes to astro-horological
> correlation of scales with the zodiac and the elements along with their
> medicinal benefits. It is a relief to see that symbolic occultism is not
> uncommon in the West.

Beliefs are free, you can have them. I also have the right to reject
'sciomancy'. Some things in the universe are true, others are not. The nice
thing about science is that we don't get to decide what is true and what is
not. There's plenty of majesty and mystery in the known and unknown universe
to go around without creating our own 'occult'.

Just my two cents....and I don't expect you to agree, but that's the richness
of life....different strokes for different folks.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Pete McRae <ambassadorbob@yahoo.com>

Oops. I thought you were one of them, Carl, and I admired your reasonable tone in that post!

Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org> wrote:
> I think the moderator's doing just fine, from what I can see!

Our moderators (plural) are apparently doing a great job --
we haven't been spammed in a long time.

They're listed here:

/tuning/members?group=mod

-Carl

Yahoo! Groups Links

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Then, be ready to criticize your admiration of Turkey. My very recent experience shows that scientific thinking is still alien to a great mass of our intellectuals and mystical paranoia is very dominant in shaping our daily lives.

As for tuning, I certainly do not defend occultism of any sort, but I can vear to withold it. The relief is that Turkish people are not alone in this respect.

Cordially,
Ozan Yarman
----- Original Message -----
From: domilare
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 Şubat 2005 Salı 10:01
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

A "relief" ???

"Symbolic occultism" we can do without, particularly regarding tuning. This is not the Turkey we admire and expect to join Europe.

D. Larré

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Pete McRae <ambassadorbob@yahoo.com>

In my not-so-humble opinion, western science is every bit as "occult" as much of what it dismisses as "superstition", and far less interesting, usually, than its competition for business.

I watched 'Western Medicine' unceremoniously (!) kill my father, with the best of intentions (??? minus their investments in drugs and invasive procedures???), and in almost complete ignorance.

The "superstitions" we seem to like to revile are the ancestors of our brilliant (?) science, and are generally much more felicitous houseguests, having learned manners and deference to their elders.

Vive la difference!

Pete

domilare <domilare@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
A "relief" ???

"Symbolic occultism" we can do without, particularly regarding tuning. This is not the Turkey we admire and expect to join Europe.

D. Larr�
----- Original Message -----
From: Ozan Yarman
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:31 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

Sincerely,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron K. Johnson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 22 �ubat 2005 Sal� 7:10
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

To visit your group on the web, go to:
/tuning/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "mocfujita_2000" <Mocfujita@a...>
wrote:

> The Uncertainty Principle for music;

The Classical Uncertainty Principle is relevant for music and has
been discussed on this list . . .

> In 1916 Einstein published his general theory of relativity. In it
he
> proposed that gravity is not a force but a curved field in the
space-
> time continuum that is created by the presence of mass. People were
> astonished by the fact that space and time are under relativity.
Even
> though, the world could stay ease within the determinism where
there
> was a general algorithmic procedure for resolving all mathematical
> questions.
> But since Heisenberg's discovery,

Heisenberg's discovery has nothing to do with Einstein's theory of
relativity, nor is it relevant for music. It seems like you're
confusing at least three very different concepts here.

> But over the centuries musicians, mathematicians, theorists,
> thinkers, experts and amateurs have been suffered from the comma
> which is the difference between a perfectly tuned octave and the
> octave resulting from a tuned circle of fifths.

That's only one type of comma -- the Pythagorean comma -- and it had
been used as a feature, not always treated as a "bug".

> http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/wtcuncertain.html

Your discussion here concerns the Classical Uncertainty Principle.
This is a result from Fourier Analysis and has nothing to do with
Quantum Mechanics or any of the innovations of the 20th century.

In fact you seem to acknowledge this yourself further in the page. So
why all the obfuscation with appeals to modern physics?

The Classical Uncertainty principle does have a lot to do with music
and many people, from posters on this list to designers of poor
concert halls, have utterly failed to appreciate it.

Meanwhile, it's very easy to distinguish Bach's C major prelude in
Equal Temperament from the same piece played in one of the
historically appropriate temperaments such as Werckmeister III,
Kellner Bach, Barnes Bach, etc. If your argument is intended to show
that one can't hear the difference, it must be flawed in at least one
respect. One of the flaws is that you treat the tones as if they were
sine waves. Have you considered the *harmonics* of the notes playing
(which are quite loud on a harpsichord) and that they'll lead to a
smaller uncertainty than the fundamentals alone? A harpsichord
doesn't play sine waves! And our ears/brains typically determine the
pitch of fundamentals from the 3rd through 6th harmonics, not
necessarily (or even often) from the fundamental itself.

Also, your assertion that piano strings tuned in equal temperament
will synchronize into JI when a major chord is played is simply
wishful thinking. Try an actual experiment where you do some
measurements and you'll see what I mean. Equal temperament is far too
severe a mistuning for the weak coupling between piano strings to
push them into a mode-locked behavior.

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-
topic for the
> tuning list.

I didn't see any metaphysical speculation there. I saw a lot of
references to physics, most of which were irrelevant and portrayed
false connections. But I also saw a fine discussion of the Classical
Uncertainty Principle, which is absolutely relevant to music and
which should be far better known by those who work in the field.

> It seems that these days, we are getting a lot of wacky posts
about 'tuning'
> in the spiritual sense,

> and not in the musical sense. Plus posts like this
> contain basic information that only the newest of newbies doesn't
>know,

Hmm . . . somehow the designers of many large concert halls were
completely oblivous to this information, and you claim that the
newest of newbies should know it?

> and
> is available somewhere else. Moderators?

If this is an appeal for censorship, let me respond with a giant
stream of vomit pointed in your direction -- totalitarianism of any
stripe makes me sick, and an open and free clash of ideas is the way
to maximize enlightenment. I think this person could learn a lot from
continuing arguments, not to mention listening examples and actual
measurements.

P.S. I'm still waiting for your address so I can send you CDs!

-Paul

🔗pgreenhaw@nypl.org

Would a discussion of, let's say, Ernest McClain's work be unwelcomed by the
group?P

_________________________________________

-----"domilare" <domilare@wanadoo.fr> wrote: -----

To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
From: "domilare" <domilare@wanadoo.fr>
Date: 02/22/2005 03:01AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

A "relief" ??? "Symbolic occultism" we can do without, particularly regarding
tuning. This is not the Turkey we admire and expect to join Europe.D. Larré> ----- Original Message ----- From: Ozan Yarman [ozanyarman@superonline.com] To:
tuning@yahoogroups.com [tuning@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 22,
2005 7:31 AM Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs
Come now Aaron, metaphysical connotations aren't that horrible. Our maqam
culture is loaded with sciomancy when it comes to astro-horological correlation
of scales with the zodiac and the elements along with their medicinal benefits.
It is a relief to see that symbolic occultism is not uncommon in the West.
Sincerely, Ozan > ----- Original Message ----- From: Aaron K. Johnson [akjmicro@comcast.net] To:
tuning@yahoogroups.com [tuning@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 22 Þubat 2005 Salý 7:10
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs
On Monday 21 February 2005 04:34 pm, Carl Lumma wrote:
> > I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-topic for
> > the tuning list.
>
> As it happens, many people are interested in alternate tunings for
> numerological or spiritual reasons.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com [http://www.akjmusic.com]
http://www.dividebypi.com [http://www.dividebypi.com]

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

🔗Igliashon Jones <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>

What is your native language? No offense, but your translation is on
the rocky side.

I'm no expert on Bach or historical music, but seeing as how:
1) There exists a particular set of tunings called "Well
Temperaments", many of which were popular during Bach's time,
2) His piece was titled "The Well-Tempered Clavier",
3) Each key in a well temperament has a distinct individual character
due to the unequal spacing of notes in the temperament,
4) Each piece in the WTC *obviously* lends itself to the unique
characters of the key it is in,

I think it stands to reason that Bach *intended* the WTC to be played
in a well temperament (though which one in particular we may never
know). Who are you to quibble with the intentions of such a genius?
Just because your ears cannot discern a difference between equal and
well does not mean that there is no difference. Trying playing any
piece from the WTC simultaneously in equal and well temperaments, and
you will hear a very obvious beating.

And as Paul said, neither Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle nor any
of Einstein's theories on Relativity imply that we cannot hear the
difference between various temperaments.

If you come to this list to suggest that we all ought to give up on
microtuning and just live with 12-tet forever, you better be ready to
defend yourself.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "mocfujita_2000" <Mocfujita@a...>
wrote:
>
>
> Music of Sacred Temperament the Well Tempered Clavier by J.S.Bach
> In the beginning was the Note.
> All the Music was made by the Note,
> and without the Note was not any music made that was made.
> There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
> The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light of the
Music.
> In the daytime, the light was from the sun.
> In the night, the shadow was from the stars.
> The day was made of twelve hours of daytime and of twelve hours of
night.
> So was the Music.
> The Note was made of twelve tones namely all the tones and
semitones.
> And sequenced in the major scale or in the minor scale.
> The Music was in twenty-four keys, and without them was not any
music
> that was made.
> Anna Magdalena -- Carl Philipp Emanuel -- The Uncertainty --
Johann
> Adolph Scheibe
>
> http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/index.html

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Tuesday 22 February 2005 01:25 pm, Pete McRae wrote:
> In my not-so-humble opinion, western science is every bit as "occult" as
> much of what it dismisses as "superstition", and far less interesting,
> usually, than its competition for business.

I disagree. I think anti-science backlash like this is, well, dangerous for
society.

> I watched 'Western Medicine' unceremoniously (!) kill my father, with the
> best of intentions (??? minus their investments in drugs and invasive
> procedures???), and in almost complete ignorance.

Sorry to hear about your father. To me, the problem with medicine is not
science; the problem is large drug companies politically strangling the
doctors to use their sometimes poisonous products. But 'alternative medicine'
need not be flaky: nutritional remedies and vitamin solutions to common ills
are scientifically sound.

> The "superstitions" we seem to like to revile are the ancestors of our
> brilliant (?) science, and are generally much more felicitous houseguests,
> having learned manners and deference to their elders.

There are instances where ancient medicinal practices, etc. have enlightened
and enhanced modern medicine, for example. But, by and large, superstitions
are superstitions, and I'll take a 2005 life span and quality of life over
1492, thank you very much. Deodorant is a good invention, as are showers,
toothpaste and brushes, and tampons. Not to mention toilet paper, plumbing,
etc.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Tuesday 22 February 2005 03:19 pm, wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
> > Aaron wrote:
> > and not in the musical sense. Plus posts like this
> > contain basic information that only the newest of newbies doesn't
> >know,
>
> Hmm . . . somehow the designers of many large concert halls were
> completely oblivous to this information, and you claim that the
> newest of newbies should know it?

I was referring to this part:
"But over the centuries musicians, mathematicians, theorists,
thinkers, experts and amateurs have been suffered from the comma
which is the difference between a perfectly tuned octave and the
octave resulting from a tuned circle of fifths. Many great people
have been trying to create the perfect scale in vain. Mathematics
easily proves that perfection is not possible. Any solution does not
exist. Musicians, especially pianists, have been accused of using the
Equal Temperament for thier pianos because the Equal Temperament is
said to be an anti-musical compromise which leaves each key equally
damaged and none perfectly in tune."

But you didnt bother to ask that and went on to say:

> > and
> > is available somewhere else. Moderators?
>
> If this is an appeal for censorship, let me respond with a giant
> stream of vomit pointed in your direction -- totalitarianism of any
> stripe makes me sick, and an open and free clash of ideas is the way
> to maximize enlightenment. I think this person could learn a lot from
> continuing arguments, not to mention listening examples and actual
> measurements.

Not one of your finer moments, Paul. I suppose we should also label any
moderators of any mailing list as totalitarian by your argument. Don't stop
the people from selling viagra in here, you Nazi pig!

...not to mention I wasn't advocating anything remotely "totalitarian" by
suggesting a thread was OT....jeez, you self-righteous people need to chill.

> P.S. I'm still waiting for your address so I can send you CDs!

Will send offlist.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Tuesday 22 February 2005 10:39 pm, Igliashon Jones wrote:
> > > > I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really* off-
>
> topic for
>
> > > > the tuning list.
> > >
> > > As it happens, many people are interested in alternate tunings for
> > > numerological or spiritual reasons.
> >
> > Maybe so, but it's certainly not part of the description of the
>
> group on the
>
> > homepage.Unless one liberally reads 'etcetera' to mean such
>
> stuff....
>
> > And I'll cancel my subscription if it ends up being added.
>
> Um... and what exactly is it about the philosophy and/or consumer
> ethics of various audio compression formats that has anything to do
> with Making Micro Music? Sorry to fan the flames here, but this
> inconsistency bugs me. If you want other people to stick exactly to
> the topic at hand, then please practice what you preach.

No inconsistency there, Igs. Unless you plan on not posting compressed audio
files of your compositions on the web, or don't care to discuss the tools for
the distribution of you microtonal music. How, exactly, is the discussion of
the end product's representation as an audio format, in a group titled
'MakeMicroMusic' off topic, if part of making music is recording it with
fidelity.

Step off the soapbox.

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Igliashon Jones <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>

Sorry, Aaron, but I don't see how your slew of posts in MMM are
*more* relevant to that list than mocfujita's are to this one. Any
argument you might raise for why his post ought to be censored is
just as valid against your own, is what I'm trying to say. The only
difference is mocfujita is obviously a neophyte whereas you are more
experienced, but I don't recall anything in the charter for this
group saying "the uninitiated are not welcome. Do not enter unless
you can speak the language fluently."

Alright, you can have your soapbox back now.

-igs

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
> On Tuesday 22 February 2005 10:39 pm, Igliashon Jones wrote:
> > > > > I would say that such metaphysical speculation is *really*
off-
> >
> > topic for
> >
> > > > > the tuning list.
> > > >
> > > > As it happens, many people are interested in alternate
tunings for
> > > > numerological or spiritual reasons.
> > >
> > > Maybe so, but it's certainly not part of the description of the
> >
> > group on the
> >
> > > homepage.Unless one liberally reads 'etcetera' to mean such
> >
> > stuff....
> >
> > > And I'll cancel my subscription if it ends up being added.
> >
> > Um... and what exactly is it about the philosophy and/or consumer
> > ethics of various audio compression formats that has anything to
do
> > with Making Micro Music? Sorry to fan the flames here, but this
> > inconsistency bugs me. If you want other people to stick exactly
to
> > the topic at hand, then please practice what you preach.
>
> No inconsistency there, Igs. Unless you plan on not posting
compressed audio
> files of your compositions on the web, or don't care to discuss the
tools for
> the distribution of you microtonal music. How, exactly, is the
discussion of
> the end product's representation as an audio format, in a group
titled
> 'MakeMicroMusic' off topic, if part of making music is recording it
with
> fidelity.
>
> Step off the soapbox.
>
>
> Aaron Krister Johnson
> http://www.akjmusic.com
> http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Igliashon Jones <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>

And might I add that the title you gave your original response ("a
load of bs") was rather unnecessary, unless you were in fact *trying*
to get some flames going.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Igliashon Jones" <igliashon@s...>
wrote:
>
> Sorry, Aaron, but I don't see how your slew of posts in MMM are
> *more* relevant to that list than mocfujita's are to this one. Any
> argument you might raise for why his post ought to be censored is
> just as valid against your own, is what I'm trying to say. The
only
> difference is mocfujita is obviously a neophyte whereas you are
more
> experienced, but I don't recall anything in the charter for this
> group saying "the uninitiated are not welcome. Do not enter unless
> you can speak the language fluently."
>
> Alright, you can have your soapbox back now.
>
> -igs
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
> wrote:
> > On Tuesday 22 February 2005 10:39 pm, Igliashon Jones wrote:
> > > > > > I would say that such metaphysical speculation is
*really*
> off-
> > >
> > > topic for
> > >
> > > > > > the tuning list.
> > > > >
> > > > > As it happens, many people are interested in alternate
> tunings for
> > > > > numerological or spiritual reasons.
> > > >
> > > > Maybe so, but it's certainly not part of the description of
the
> > >
> > > group on the
> > >
> > > > homepage.Unless one liberally reads 'etcetera' to mean such
> > >
> > > stuff....
> > >
> > > > And I'll cancel my subscription if it ends up being added.
> > >
> > > Um... and what exactly is it about the philosophy and/or
consumer
> > > ethics of various audio compression formats that has anything
to
> do
> > > with Making Micro Music? Sorry to fan the flames here, but this
> > > inconsistency bugs me. If you want other people to stick
exactly
> to
> > > the topic at hand, then please practice what you preach.
> >
> > No inconsistency there, Igs. Unless you plan on not posting
> compressed audio
> > files of your compositions on the web, or don't care to discuss
the
> tools for
> > the distribution of you microtonal music. How, exactly, is the
> discussion of
> > the end product's representation as an audio format, in a group
> titled
> > 'MakeMicroMusic' off topic, if part of making music is recording
it
> with
> > fidelity.
> >
> > Step off the soapbox.
> >
> >
> > Aaron Krister Johnson
> > http://www.akjmusic.com
> > http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, pgreenhaw@n... wrote:

> Would a discussion of, let's say, Ernest McClain's work
> be unwelcomed by the group?

i, for one, would *really* welcome a good in-depth discussion
of McClain's work here!

... however, when it was brought up in the recent past
(i don't remember if it was on this list or on tuning-math),
Gene Ward Smith characterized it as ... well, basically
what it says in the subject line of this thread ...

i tried to pry out of him why he felt that way about it,
but we finally just had to agree to disagree, and end it.

-monz

🔗oren jusefsohn <oren_j@hotmail.com>

🔗domilare <domilare@wanadoo.fr>

----- Original Message -----
From: Ozan Yarman
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs
......
>be ready to criticize your admiration of Turkey

All and any admiration should be kept under balanced criticism...

>scientific thinking is still alien to a great mass of our intellectuals and mystical paranoia is very dominant in shaping our daily lives.

But your country has a distinct history of attempting to address that problem.

>As for tuning, I certainly do not defend occultism of any sort

Good to hear - I had not felt otherwise since you started to post here.

Hope to be in position to visit Turkey again some time!

Cordial greetings in return

Dominique Larré

🔗domilare <domilare@wanadoo.fr>

🔗mocfujita_2000 <Mocfujita@aol.com>

Dear Mr. or Ms Igliashon Jones,

>What is your native language? No offense, but your translation is
on the rocky side.<

My English is somehow old-fashioned like William Shakespeare's one.
So you might have a difficulty to read mine. I feel sorry about it.

Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy:
Why lov'st thou that which thou receiv'st not gladly,
Or else receiv'st with pleasure thine annoy?
If the true concord of well-tuned sounds,
By unions married do offend thine ear,
They do but sweetly chide thee, who confounds
In singleness the parts that thou shouldst bear:
Mark how one string sweet husband to another,
Strikes each in each by mutual ordering;
Resembling sire, and child, and happy mother,
Who all in one, one pleasing note do sing:
Whose speechless song being many, seeming one,
Sings this to thee, 'Thou single wilt prove none'.

>Each piece in the WTC obviously lends itself to the unique
characters of the key it is in.<

I don't know who said it. Anyway the uncertainty principle allows you
to enjoy any kind of temperament system you like.

http://www.geocities.jp/imyfujita/index.html

mocfujita

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Tuesday 22 February 2005 11:50 pm, Igliashon Jones wrote:
> Sorry, Aaron, but I don't see how your slew of posts in MMM are
> *more* relevant to that list than mocfujita's are to this one. Any
> argument you might raise for why his post ought to be censored is
> just as valid against your own, is what I'm trying to say. The only
> difference is mocfujita is obviously a neophyte whereas you are more
> experienced, but I don't recall anything in the charter for this
> group saying "the uninitiated are not welcome. Do not enter unless
> you can speak the language fluently."

That wasn't my intention. Perhaps I was just having a bad day. Many people
came down on the side of 'yeah, metaphysics', so I'm going to back down
gracefully. I'll just cancel my subscription. More of interest to me seems to
be going on at MMM anyway, and the people I care to talk to are already
there.

> Alright, you can have your soapbox back now.

I will promptly burn it....<grin>

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Igliashon Jones <igliashon@sbcglobal.net>

> Dear Mr. or Ms Igliashon Jones,

Ha! It's "Mister", may it please you.

> My English is somehow old-fashioned like William Shakespeare's one.
> So you might have a difficulty to read mine. I feel sorry about it.

I've no difficulty to read Shakespeare, but I'm certainly having a
time trying to figure out yours. First all this "Sacred Temperament"
stuff, then some quasi-physical explanation for why we can listen to
music in whatever temperament you like? What are you getting at? It
sure sounds to me as if you're a member of the "tuning doesn't
matter, so let's just stick with 12-tet" school of thought. May I be
wrong? And have you read Paul Erlich's response to your post? He's
a physicist, and he's got quite some issues with the terms you're
brandishing.

_igliashon

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

Dear Dominique, I'm glad we resolved this matter in a most civil manner, setting a concrete example as to how East and West can very well co-exist. Should your visit to Turkey become certain, I would like to meet you in person.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: domilare
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Şubat 2005 Çarşamba 10:49
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: a load of bs

All and any admiration should be kept under balanced criticism...

>scientific thinking is still alien to a great mass of our intellectuals and mystical paranoia is very dominant in shaping our daily lives.

But your country has a distinct history of attempting to address that problem.

>As for tuning, I certainly do not defend occultism of any sort

Good to hear - I had not felt otherwise since you started to post here.

Hope to be in position to visit Turkey again some time!

Cordial greetings in return

Dominique Larré

🔗Ozan Yarman <ozanyarman@superonline.com>

It is not tactful that you leave the tuning list on grounds that you do not agree with metaphysical chit-chat Aaron. Do stay and let us enjoy your insightfulness.

Cordially,
Ozan Yarman
----- Original Message -----
From: Aaron K. Johnson
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 Şubat 2005 Çarşamba 17:36
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: To fan the flames...

> Alright, you can have your soapbox back now.

I will promptly burn it....<grin>

Aaron Krister Johnson
http://www.akjmusic.com
http://www.dividebypi.com

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Monz,

So, please tell me about Ernest McClain, his work, and what interests you
about it.

Regards,

Yahya

-----Original Message-----
From: monz
Sent: Wednesday 23 February 2005 17:26 pm

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, pgreenhaw@n... wrote:

> Would a discussion of, let's say, Ernest McClain's work
> be unwelcomed by the group?

i, for one, would *really* welcome a good in-depth discussion
of McClain's work here!

i tried to pry out of him why he felt that way about it,
but we finally just had to agree to disagree, and end it.

-monz

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/2/05

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

A diginified response in verse
may prevent our manners getting worse.
Still, to each his own mode, of course!

Regards,
Yahya
-----Original Message-----
From: Ozan Yarman
Sent: Thursday 24 February 2005 6:36 am
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Music of Sacred Temperament

Quarreling by polemics,
Is quite unnecessary me thinks.
Tuning is not just science,
But to absolutism, defiance.

Cordially,
Ozan
----- Original Message -----
From: David Beardsley
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 23 ï¿½ubat 2005 ï¿½arï¿½amba 20:11
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Music of Sacred Temperament

Igliashon Jones wrote:

>And have you read Paul Erlich's response to your post? He's
>a physicist, and he's got quite some issues with the terms you're
>brandishing.
>
>
Be nice to him, he might puke on you.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/2/05

🔗domilare <domilare@wanadoo.fr>

🔗ambassadorbob <ambassadorbob@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:
> On Tuesday 22 February 2005 01:25 pm, Pete McRae wrote:
> > In my not-so-humble opinion, western science is every bit
as "occult" as
> > much of what it dismisses as "superstition", and far less
interesting,
> > usually, than its competition for business.
>
> I disagree. I think anti-science backlash like this is, well,
dangerous for
> society.
>

Hi Aaron,

I'm not worried about anti-science backlash, or even scientific
jingoism, so much. As Paul pointed out, I'm worried about a.)
censorship, and b.) pretensions to absolute competence (whether
by "artists" or "doctors").

In the circles I travel in, I get a lot more proselytizing
from "atheists" than I do from, oh, let's say, "astrologers", so I
tend to play devil's advocate from that angle...

Cheers,

Pete

🔗monz <monz@tonalsoft.com>

hi Yahya,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> Monz,
>
> So, please tell me about Ernest McClain, his work, and
> what interests you about it.

i'm too busy with other things right now (my software
and Encyclopedia ... also i just moved) to get too deeply
into it.

but i have a great interest in the Sumerians and in how
much of our cultural heritage originates with them, and
McClain's work gets into those areas a bit.

the best i can do right now is point you to the discussion
i mentioned before ... here are links to it:

/tuning/topicId_52904.html#52919

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52945

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52946

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52949

(note that my Sumerian Tuning page has this filename now:)
http://sonic-arts.org:80/monzo/sumerian/simplified-sumerian-tuning.htm

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52950

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52954

/tuning/topicId_52940.html#52971

/tuning/topicId_52940.html#52974

-monz

🔗pgreenhaw@nypl.org

You can check-out what he does here -- http://www.ernestmcclain.net/ --

The piece Musical Theory and Ancient Cosmology is a good place to get an idea of what he writes about.

___________________________________________
Paul Greenhaw
Music Specialist II
The New York Public Library for the Performing Arts
40 Lincoln Center Plaza
New York, NY 10023
(212) 870-1892
__________________________________________

"monz" <monz@tonalsoft.com>
02/26/2005 04:16 PM
Please respond to tuning

To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
cc:
Subject: [tuning] Ernest McClain's work [was Re: a load of bs]

hi Yahya,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <yahya@m...> wrote:

> Monz,
>
> So, please tell me about Ernest McClain, his work, and
> what interests you about it.

i'm too busy with other things right now (my software
and Encyclopedia ... also i just moved) to get too deeply
into it.

but i have a great interest in the Sumerians and in how
much of our cultural heritage originates with them, and
McClain's work gets into those areas a bit.

the best i can do right now is point you to the discussion
i mentioned before ... here are links to it:

/tuning/topicId_52904.html#52919

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52945

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52946

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52949

(note that my Sumerian Tuning page has this filename now:)
http://sonic-arts.org:80/monzo/sumerian/simplified-sumerian-tuning.htm

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52950

/tuning/topicId_52943.html#52954

/tuning/topicId_52940.html#52971

/tuning/topicId_52940.html#52974

-monz

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor

Yahoo! Groups Links
To visit your group on the web, go to:
/tuning/

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Yahya Abdal-Aziz <yahya@melbpc.org.au>

Thank you, Paul.

Regards,
Yahya

-----Original Message-----
______________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 13:28:04 -0500
From: pgreenhaw@nypl.org
Subject: Re: Ernest McClain's work [was Re: a load of bs]

You can check-out what he does here -- http://www.ernestmcclain.net/ --

The piece Musical Theory and Ancient Cosmology is a good place to get an idea of what he writes about.

...
______________________________________________________________________

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.5.2 - Release Date: 28/2/05