The BREATHTAKING Sagittal Website!

The new Sagittal website, which I just belatedly discovered is
*breathtaking* in its creativity and imaginativeness. It is without
a doubt a fitting vehicle for such a global and intellectually
ennobling endeavor. Did Dave Keenan write all of this? Bravo for
you Dave, if so! The mythology, music and graphics lend a world that
is fitting for a "new world" of notation...

http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/

I also tried out the Sibelius Sagittal plug-in and it seems to be
working, at least for what I was doing with it.

But, who is Jacob Barton, and how did he get involved in this
project...??

Anyway, enough of writing, I'm going back to read this thoroughly
entertaining site!

Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> I also tried out the Sibelius Sagittal plug-in and it seems to be
> working, at least for what I was doing with it.

Sweet. What were you doing? A bit of 72-ET, no doubt...what's cool is you can switch
in whatever non-Sagittal symbols you would want...

> But, who is Jacob Barton, and how did he get involved in this
> project...??

Just some bum who for about two months had nothing to do but think about how to
notate a piece that uses all the equal octave divisions from 1 to 12 (have you been to
www.soundclick.com/funwithxenharmonicity?), and procrastinate writing a piece
going from 12-equal to 24-equal, and who happens to have Sibelius.

Jacob

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jacob" <jbarton@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_54113.html#54117

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > I also tried out the Sibelius Sagittal plug-in and it seems to be
> > working, at least for what I was doing with it.
>
> Sweet. What were you doing? A bit of 72-ET, no doubt...what's cool
is you can switch
> in whatever non-Sagittal symbols you would want...
>

***Hi Jacob,

Yes, but I was having more trouble getting the "diluted" version of
Sagittal to work for whatever reason. I was also a little confused
about editing the gamut of the plug-in, but I'll try to study it a
bit more...

> > But, who is Jacob Barton, and how did he get involved in this
> > project...??
>
> Just some bum who for about two months had nothing to do but think
about how to
> notate a piece that uses all the equal octave divisions from 1 to
12 (have you been to
> www.soundclick.com/funwithxenharmonicity?), and procrastinate
writing a piece
> going from 12-equal to 24-equal, and who happens to have Sibelius.
>
> Jacob

***Anybody who gets Sibelius to do *anything* microtonal deserves a
lot of congratulations in *my* book. Did you announce your plug-in
on the Sibelius chat page. The more microtonal postings over there
by different people the better for all of us for the future, I
believe...

J. Pehrson

> ***Hi Jacob,
>
> Yes, but I was having more trouble getting the "diluted" version of
> Sagittal to work for whatever reason. I was also a little confused
> about editing the gamut of the plug-in, but I'll try to study it a
> bit more...

The plugin was initially designed for the 28 symbols of "Sagittal Lite" but should work
with the ones that the "diluted" version has. I realize now that if you can't see where
which symbols are supposed to go, there's no way to figure out which symbols to
replace. Email me if further confused.

> ***Anybody who gets Sibelius to do *anything* microtonal deserves a
> lot of congratulations in *my* book.

Thanks for that!

> Did you announce your plug-in
> on the Sibelius chat page. The more microtonal postings over there
> by different people the better for all of us for the future, I
> believe...

I wil, after I sort out the abovementioned problem and when I've seen the
documentation. Also, I'm planning a re-notating plugin that could take unretuned
(scordatura) scores and apply a pitch mapping to the notation. If I can get that baby
working, the whole scheme will become a lot more useful.

Jacob

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> The new Sagittal website, which I just belatedly discovered is
> *breathtaking* in its creativity and imaginativeness. It is
without
> a doubt a fitting vehicle for such a global and intellectually
> ennobling endeavor. Did Dave Keenan write all of this?

No way!

> Bravo for
> you Dave, if so! The mythology, music and graphics lend a world
that
> is fitting for a "new world" of notation...

We're very glad you like it. Thanks for the kind words.

There's more to come.

> http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/
>
> I also tried out the Sibelius Sagittal plug-in and it seems to be
> working, at least for what I was doing with it.

That's great! Thanks so much for being a pioneer and prompting us to
make those important improvements a few months back.

If you still have a copy of that email to me where you rated all the
existing Sibelius symbols according to how much you thought people
could do without them, could you please email a copy to Jacob
Barton. I'm afraid I was careless and lost my copy.

Maybe we can entice you back to Sagittal eventually. Please pass the
URL on to all your 72-ET aquaintances. :-)

-- Dave Keenan

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> The new Sagittal website, which I just belatedly discovered is
> *breathtaking* in its creativity and imaginativeness. It is
without
> a doubt a fitting vehicle for such a global and intellectually
> ennobling endeavor. Did Dave Keenan write all of this?

If you're referring to the "Remarkable Story of the Development of
the Sagittal Microtonal Notation System" (which Dave insists on
referring to as "the mythology", much to my dismay), the answer is
no. The text clearly explains who actually wrote it, so I'm not
going into that here (since I think it would be best for all
concerned to remain "in character" on this list.)

But Dave should be given credit for locating those illustrations,
which lend a nice touch, I think.

> Bravo for
> you Dave, if so! The mythology, music and graphics lend a world
that
> is fitting for a "new world" of notation...
>
> http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/
> ...
>
> Anyway, enough of writing, I'm going back to read this thoroughly
> entertaining site!

Thanks, Joseph, in behalf of all those both above and below (or as
you might say, "behind the scenes") who had a part in the creation of
our special gift. (Apollo also sends his regards.)

-- "George"

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_54113.html#54142

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > The new Sagittal website, which I just belatedly discovered is
> > *breathtaking* in its creativity and imaginativeness. It is
> without
> > a doubt a fitting vehicle for such a global and intellectually
> > ennobling endeavor. Did Dave Keenan write all of this?
>
> No way!
>

***Well, I'm a little confused about who wrote what on the site. One
of the authors "George Secor" is, apparently, not George Secor but
maybe a committee of tuning savants. I guess it's possible
that "George Secor" was always a committee... :)

> > Bravo for
> > you Dave, if so! The mythology, music and graphics lend a world
> that
> > is fitting for a "new world" of notation...
>
> We're very glad you like it. Thanks for the kind words.
>
> There's more to come.
>
> > http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/
> >
> > I also tried out the Sibelius Sagittal plug-in and it seems to be
> > working, at least for what I was doing with it.
>
> That's great! Thanks so much for being a pioneer and prompting us
to
> make those important improvements a few months back.
>
> If you still have a copy of that email to me where you rated all
the
> existing Sibelius symbols according to how much you thought people
> could do without them, could you please email a copy to Jacob
> Barton. I'm afraid I was careless and lost my copy.
>

***I just sent you a copy, Dave. Could you please forward it on to
Jacob; he's not yet in my address book...

> Maybe we can entice you back to Sagittal eventually. Please pass
the
> URL on to all your 72-ET aquaintances. :-)
>

***Well, I actually haven't left Sagittal yet, in all honesty. I've
been a little "conflicted" about it all since I know there are a
sizable number of people who use the Sims/Maneri 72-tET notation.

However, I really dislike the quartertones in that notation. I find
them quite confusing. Additionally, my own keyboard has the HEWM-
Sagittal, since I had adapted it some time ago.

For the last 6 months I have been very busy on a project editing and
revising some older pieces that I never seem to have time to edit.
Finally I'm making some time, so I haven't been writing new 72-tET
things anyway.

When I get back to it, there's a very good chance that I will
continue with the modified Sagittal rather than Sims/Maneri. The
Sagittal makes more sense, and is much easier to read.

By the way, Dave, do you happen to have the True Type font for the
*entire* HEWM-Sagittal?? My font here only has one big arrow in it.
I think it was an earlier version.

Thanks!

Joseph

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> Did Dave Keenan write all of this?
> >
> > No way!
> >
>
> ***Well, I'm a little confused about who wrote what on the site.
One
> of the authors "George Secor" is, apparently, not George Secor but
> maybe a committee of tuning savants. I guess it's possible
> that "George Secor" was always a committee... :)

Hee hee.

Well I'm vain enough to want to admit that, in regard to the
mythology, apart from finding the graphics, I did translate
Inanates' poems from Ancient Greek, and Hermes (alias George Secor)
and I did discuss the story structure a lot. But other than that,
it's Hermes' story. :-)

The gods are apparently still trying to find out what became of the
_real_ George Secor, author of those Xenharmonikon articles and
Scalatron performances 25 years ago.

> ***I just sent you a copy, Dave. Could you please forward it on
to
> Jacob; he's not yet in my address book...

Thanks! Got it. Will do.

> > Maybe we can entice you back to Sagittal eventually. Please pass
> the
> > URL on to all your 72-ET aquaintances. :-)
> >
>
> ***Well, I actually haven't left Sagittal yet, in all honesty.
...
> When I get back to it, there's a very good chance that I will
> continue with the modified Sagittal rather than Sims/Maneri. The
> Sagittal makes more sense, and is much easier to read.
>
> By the way, Dave, do you happen to have the True Type font for the
> *entire* HEWM-Sagittal??

The Wilson 5-comma symbols (sloping + and -) will be in all Sagittal
set from now on. The following one has all the symbols you need.
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal72.ttf

If you ask Jacob Barton nicely he might add "+" and "-" to the
character strings recognised by his Sibelius script. You can always
email him from the Yahoo tuning web interface (just hit Reply to one
of his messages) and choose author rather than group. These symbols
are the third and third-last characters in the font. I'll email him
about it.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_54113.html#54427

> >
> > By the way, Dave, do you happen to have the True Type font for
the
> > *entire* HEWM-Sagittal??
>
> The Wilson 5-comma symbols (sloping + and -) will be in all
Sagittal
> set from now on. The following one has all the symbols you need.
> http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal72.ttf
>

***Hi Dave,

Well, regrettably, this isn't working quite as I hoped. It seems the
font directory in windows doesn't like having *two* Sagittal fonts in
there, regardless of what they are named. At least that's the
experience I'm having. The file above seems like a *very* limited
set and it only has a few characters in it, none of which is the
little plus and minus (??)

The other previous "SAT" file (dunno what that stands for... ??) has,
apparently, the entire Sagittal set, but also doesn't include the
plusses and minuses...

So, I'm a little confused...

Thanks!

Joseph

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_54113.html#54427
>
> > >
> > > By the way, Dave, do you happen to have the True Type font for
> the
> > > *entire* HEWM-Sagittal??
> >
> > The Wilson 5-comma symbols (sloping + and -) will be in all
> Sagittal
> > set from now on. The following one has all the symbols you need.
> > http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal72.ttf
> >
>
> ***Hi Dave,
>
> Well, regrettably, this isn't working quite as I hoped. It seems
the
> font directory in windows doesn't like having *two* Sagittal fonts
in
> there, regardless of what they are named. At least that's the
> experience I'm having.

That's right. It's safest to delete the old one before copying the
new one to your font folder.

> The file above seems like a *very* limited
> set and it only has a few characters in it,

Then it may surprise you to learn that it is sufficient to notate
the following 24 equal temperaments:
2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 26, 29, 31, 34,
36, 38, 41, 65, 72 and 79

> none of which is the little plus and minus (??)

They are definitely in the font. What are you looking at it with? If
you're relying on Jacob's script to get at them, you won't be able
to at present. I emailed him yesterday and he's working on a
new "wilson" house style and allowing you to get them by typing "+"
or "-" to his script.

> The other previous "SAT" file (dunno what that stands for... ??)

As it says on the website, Spartan plus Athenian plus Trojan
(explained in the XH article).

> has,
> apparently, the entire Sagittal set, but also doesn't include the
> plusses and minuses...

I think it does have them, you just can't get at them yet with
Jacobs script.

If it has the entire set, then it's not just the SAT set.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_54113.html#54427
>
> > >
> > > By the way, Dave, do you happen to have the True Type font for
> the
> > > *entire* HEWM-Sagittal??
> >
> > The Wilson 5-comma symbols (sloping + and -) will be in all
> Sagittal
> > set from now on. The following one has all the symbols you need.
> > http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal72.ttf
> >
>
> ***Hi Dave,
>
> Well, regrettably, this isn't working quite as I hoped. It seems
the
> font directory in windows doesn't like having *two* Sagittal fonts
in
> there, regardless of what they are named. At least that's the
> experience I'm having.

That's right. It's safest to delete the old one before copying the
new one to your font folder.

> The file above seems like a *very* limited
> set and it only has a few characters in it,

Then it may surprise you to learn that it is sufficient to notate
the following 24 equal temperaments:
2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 26, 29, 31, 34,
36, 38, 41, 65, 72 and 79

> none of which is the little plus and minus (??)

They are definitely in the font. What are you looking at it with? If
you're relying on Jacob's script to get at them, you won't be able
to at present. I emailed him yesterday and he's working on a
new "wilson" house style and allowing you to get them by typing "+"
or "-" to his script.

> The other previous "SAT" file (dunno what that stands for... ??)

As it says on the website, Spartan plus Athenian plus Trojan
(explained in the XH article).

> has,
> apparently, the entire Sagittal set, but also doesn't include the
> plusses and minuses...

I think it does have them, you just can't get at them yet with
Jacobs script.

If it has the entire set, then it's not just the SAT set.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
> As it says on the website, [the "SAT" in the filename stands for]
Spartan plus Athenian plus Trojan
> (explained in the XH article).

The union of the Spartan, Athenian and Trojan sets could also be
called the "Mortal" set, as opposed to the progressively larger sets
for use by tuning heroes or demi-gods (Herculean) and tuning gods
(Olympian). ;-)

But George pointed out that calling it "mortal" makes it sound like
it's about to keel over and die. :-)

I know, I'm playing name games just like Gene and Paul et al, but at
least it's all part of a single consistent theme and (as yet
unfinished) story designed to aid in remembering the meaning of the
various Sagittal symbols. The next episode is planned to complete
the Spartan set. Described in
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal/Sagittal.pdf

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_54113.html#54535
> > ***Hi Dave,
> >
> > Well, regrettably, this isn't working quite as I hoped. It seems
> the
> > font directory in windows doesn't like having *two* Sagittal
fonts
> in
> > there, regardless of what they are named. At least that's the
> > experience I'm having.
>
> That's right. It's safest to delete the old one before copying the
> new one to your font folder.
>
> > The file above seems like a *very* limited
> > set and it only has a few characters in it,
>
> Then it may surprise you to learn that it is sufficient to notate
> the following 24 equal temperaments:
> 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 17, 18, 19, 22, 24, 26, 29, 31, 34,
> 36, 38, 41, 65, 72 and 79
>
> > none of which is the little plus and minus (??)
>
> They are definitely in the font. What are you looking at it with?
If
> you're relying on Jacob's script to get at them, you won't be able
> to at present. I emailed him yesterday and he's working on a
> new "wilson" house style and allowing you to get them by typing "+"
> or "-" to his script.
>
> > The other previous "SAT" file (dunno what that stands for... ??)
>
> As it says on the website, Spartan plus Athenian plus Trojan
> (explained in the XH article).
>
> > has,
> > apparently, the entire Sagittal set, but also doesn't include the
> > plusses and minuses...
>
> I think it does have them, you just can't get at them yet with
> Jacobs script.
>
> If it has the entire set, then it's not just the SAT set.

###I'm not seeing the Sagittal-Wilson symbols in the "Sagittal Pure"
House Style for Sibelius...

Of course, I have a "Sagittal-Wilson" house style that I think *you*
made for me, that only has the 6 symbols I use!

However, I was wondering if I could access the plusses and minuses
from the Sagittal font in a MS Word? Do you happen to know what
typewriter keys to which they would correspond??

Thanks!

Joseph

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> I'm not seeing the Sagittal-Wilson symbols in the "Sagittal Pure"
> House Style for Sibelius...
>
> Of course, I have a "Sagittal-Wilson" house style that I think
*you*
> made for me, that only has the 6 symbols I use!

My apologies. Jacob Barton is working on it. Thanks Jacob.

> However, I was wondering if I could access the plusses and minuses
> from the Sagittal font in a MS Word?

Sure.

> Do you happen to know what
> typewriter keys to which they would correspond??

I could figure them out, but the simplest way to enter Sagittal
symbols in Word is to choose Insert/Symbol... and then
choose "Sagittal" in the font menu. You will then see all the
available Sagittal symbols laid out on a palette so you can just
double-click on the one(s) you want. The Wilson minus and plus
symbols are generally the third and third-last.

To do a similar thing in any program you can use the Character Map
accessory from the Windows Start menu (Start/All
Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Character map).

By the way, when mixing Sagittal symbols with text in MS Word, you
need to do two things.

1. Use a point size for Sagittal that is 50% bigger than that of the
text it is in. e.g. For 10 point text use 15 point Sagittal. For 12
point text use 18 point Sagittal.

2. Use Format/Font/Character Spacing/Position: Raised By: N pts.
Where N is a quarter of the text point size. e.g. For 10 point text
use "raised by 2.5 pt". For 12 point text use "raised by 3 pt".

The same goes for symbols from any music font designed to work with
Finale or Sibelius.

Sagittal generally looks best with a sans-serif font such as Arial
or Helvetica, rather than a serif font such as Times Roman, since
Sagittal is itself without serifs (those flared ends on the
strokes), as are the conventiional sharp, flat and natural.

Even if the body of the text is in Times Roman, it may make sense to
set the note names A thru G in Arial or Helvetica when combining
them with sagittal symbols.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_54113.html#54566

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > I'm not seeing the Sagittal-Wilson symbols in the "Sagittal Pure"
> > House Style for Sibelius...
> >
> > Of course, I have a "Sagittal-Wilson" house style that I think
> *you*
> > made for me, that only has the 6 symbols I use!
>
> My apologies. Jacob Barton is working on it. Thanks Jacob.
>

###Hi Dave,

Thanks... glad I'm not losing my mind.. Well, I *may* be, but not
about *this*... :)

> > However, I was wondering if I could access the plusses and
minuses
> > from the Sagittal font in a MS Word?
>
> Sure.
>
> > Do you happen to know what
> > typewriter keys to which they would correspond??
>
> I could figure them out, but the simplest way to enter Sagittal
> symbols in Word is to choose Insert/Symbol... and then
> choose "Sagittal" in the font menu. You will then see all the
> available Sagittal symbols laid out on a palette so you can just
> double-click on the one(s) you want. The Wilson minus and plus
> symbols are generally the third and third-last.
>

###This is a great idea, and works PERFECTLY. Thanks so much, Dave,
for this suggestion. I think I at one time knew how to do this, but
forgot...

> To do a similar thing in any program you can use the Character Map
> accessory from the Windows Start menu (Start/All
> Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Character map).
>

###You know, I don't have that on my system. I was looking for it
some time before. Is it something that might be *extra* on the
Windows CDs??

Thanks for all the help, by the way! Great work by both of the
Sagittal staff!

Joseph

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> Dave Keenan wrote:
> > To do a similar thing in any program you can use the Character
> > Map accessory from the Windows Start menu (Start/All
> > Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Character map).
> >
>
> ###You know, I don't have that on my system. I was looking for it
> some time before. Is it something that might be *extra* on the
> Windows CDs??

I don't think so, but it might well be in a different place on
systems other than Windows XP (wot I'm using).

> Thanks for all the help, by the way! Great work by both of the
> Sagittal staff!

Hee hee. I like that one better than your Herpes jokes. :-)

Joe, Dave,

I used Excel to inspect the Sagittal font. A copy of the spreadsheet
and a gif file that shows every point in the font with its ASCII and
Hex equivalent is on my weblog at http://www.xanga.com/Music1024 for
today's entry, and deep linked at
http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/sagittal.xls and
http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/sagittal.gif

Prent

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:

> > To do a similar thing in any program you can use the Character Map
> > accessory from the Windows Start menu (Start/All
> > Programs/Accessories/System Tools/Character map).
> >
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Prent Rodgers" <prentrodgers@c...>
wrote:
> Joe, Dave,
>
> I used Excel to inspect the Sagittal font. A copy of the
spreadsheet
> and a gif file that shows every point in the font with its ASCII
and
> Hex equivalent is on my weblog at http://www.xanga.com/Music1024
for
> today's entry, and deep linked at
> http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/sagittal.xls and
> http://prodgers13.home.comcast.net/listen/sagittal.gif

Hi Prent,

I've been meaning to thank you for those.

I note that anyone looking at the Excel spreadsheet will only see
those Sagittal characters that are in the particular set they have
installed. None of those on the Sagittal website
http://dkeenan.com/sagittal
have the full (Olympian) set. But half of the symbols in the
Olympian (extreme precision) set will probably never be required by
mere mortals, and may yet be subject to change.

The gods do not intend that unprepared mortals should look on the
entire set of Sagittal symbols. Some mortals have been deeply
disturbed by this experience. Fortunately, it seems the gods caught
you in time and arranged that the last 3 symbols should be cut off
the bottom of the above GIF image, thus preserving our sanity.

-- Dave Keenan