Rubato Brahms

The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to the
point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail pages.

http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/brahms.htm

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52657

> The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to the
> point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail pages.
>
> http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/brahms.htm

***How was this done?? It sure sounds better than standard MIDI... ??

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_52657.html#52657
>
>
> > The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to the
> > point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail pages.
> >
> > http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/brahms.htm
>
> ***How was this done?? It sure sounds better than standard MIDI...

It's not a midi file, it's an ogg file. Tempos rubatoized, tuning
retuned, and rendered with a soundfont.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > ***How was this done?? It sure sounds better than standard MIDI...
>
> It's not a midi file, it's an ogg file. Tempos rubatoized, tuning
> retuned, and rendered with a soundfont.

That misses the bigger point that Joe is goofing up: MIDI doesn't "sound" like anything in particular, because it is only a specification for note ons/offs, etc. If one only sends a MIDI file, you don't know what will play it back: synths, soundcards, samples, rendered version, etc.

I say this not for Gene but Joe, only in the hopes of not having more unclear info floating around. And I'd say at this point that Gene is the master of the MIDI-to-rendered file technology!

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> I say this not for Gene but Joe, only in the hopes of not having
more unclear info floating around. And I'd say at this point that Gene
is the master of the MIDI-to-rendered file technology!

Thanks, Jon. You astonish me!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52669

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_52657.html#52657
> >
> >
> > > The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to
the
> > > point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail
pages.
> > >
> > > http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/brahms.htm
> >
> > ***How was this done?? It sure sounds better than standard
MIDI...
>
> It's not a midi file, it's an ogg file. Tempos rubatoized, tuning
> retuned, and rendered with a soundfont.

***Sure, it's clear it's not MIDI. Yes, I understand, Jon, that MIDI
is device-dependent, whereas this is not; it's a finalized sound file.

So, the file is a finalized .ogg. But what creates this .ogg? What
is the application you are using? It's obviously some kind of
sequencer. (??)

What are you driving with this??

Thanks!

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52675

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_52657.html#52669
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > /tuning/topicId_52657.html#52657
> > >
> > >
> > > > The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to
> the
> > > > point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail
> pages.
> > > >
> > > > http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/brahms.htm
> > >
> > > ***How was this done?? It sure sounds better than standard
> MIDI...
> >
> > It's not a midi file, it's an ogg file. Tempos rubatoized, tuning
> > retuned, and rendered with a soundfont.
>
>
> ***Sure, it's clear it's not MIDI. Yes, I understand, Jon, that
MIDI
> is device-dependent, whereas this is not; it's a finalized sound
file.
>
> So, the file is a finalized .ogg. But what creates this .ogg?
What
> is the application you are using? It's obviously some kind of
> sequencer. (??)
>
> What are you driving with this??
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joe

***Well, the more I think about this (for a change) it must be some
kind of sequencer driving a soft synth with great sound fonts.

What are the details of the equipment??

I confess, this is the best orchestral emulation I have yet heard.

(Gene, you're batting home runs lately... what happened to
your "duffing" days... :)

Somebody recently demonstrated orchestral emulation to me using
GigaStudio and I don't believe it sounded as good as this... (??)

Thanks!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***Well, the more I think about this (for a change) it must be some
> kind of sequencer driving a soft synth with great sound fonts.
>
> What are the details of the equipment??

It's Audio Compositor with free sf2 soundfonts downloaded from the
Web. In this case, I took a GM font and subsituted a large solo piano
font for the one the GM font used, using Audio Compositor as a
soundfont editor. I made this last year, and didn't upload it until
now because enthusiasm for Brahms seemed lacking, so I'm not totally
sure anymore which exact fonts I used.

> I confess, this is the best orchestral emulation I have yet heard.
>
> (Gene, you're batting home runs lately... what happened to
> your "duffing" days... :)

I'm working on getting better.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52677

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
>
> > ***Well, the more I think about this (for a change) it must be
some
> > kind of sequencer driving a soft synth with great sound fonts.
> >
> > What are the details of the equipment??
>
> It's Audio Compositor with free sf2 soundfonts downloaded from the
> Web. In this case, I took a GM font and subsituted a large solo
piano
> font for the one the GM font used, using Audio Compositor as a
> soundfont editor. I made this last year, and didn't upload it until
> now because enthusiasm for Brahms seemed lacking, so I'm not
totally
> sure anymore which exact fonts I used.
>

***Well, this is an interesting concept: direct MIDI to .wav
rendering, apparently:

http://home.att.net/~audiocompositor/

And, I guess all of this for only $40... :) (??)

In any case, I was wondering about the microtuning.

Does it recognize pitch bends from the original MIDI file, or do you
use the "alternate tuning and microtuning" feature mentioned on their
website??

Thanks!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> Does it recognize pitch bends from the original MIDI file, or do
you
> use the "alternate tuning and microtuning" feature mentioned on
their
> website??

It recognizes pitchbends, and has a limited ability to deal with midi
tuning standard. Timidity, by the way, also works and has been
getting better.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52680

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
>
> > Does it recognize pitch bends from the original MIDI file, or do
> you
> > use the "alternate tuning and microtuning" feature mentioned on
> their
> > website??
>
> It recognizes pitchbends, and has a limited ability to deal with
midi
> tuning standard. Timidity, by the way, also works and has been
> getting better.

***So that's the way *you* do it, as opposed to using
the "microtuning feature" shown on the website??

Tx,

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> Thanks, Jon. You astonish me!

Ah, c'mon: lots of people know how to type and use the Internet! :)

Cheers,
Jon

>***Well, this is an interesting concept: direct MIDI to .wav
>rendering, apparently:
>
>http://home.att.net/~audiocompositor/
>
>And, I guess all of this for only $40... :) (??)
>
>In any case, I was wondering about the microtuning.
>
>Does it recognize pitch bends from the original MIDI file, or do you
>use the "alternate tuning and microtuning" feature mentioned on their
>website??

Egad JP, where have you been? There have been numeroso posts about
Audio Compositor here, for years! You listened to the temperament
shootout which was done with this, all (or most) of Gene's stuff is
done with it or Timidity (similar software which is free).

-Carl

Joe,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> I confess, this is the best orchestral emulation I have yet heard.
>
> Somebody recently demonstrated orchestral emulation to me using
> GigaStudio and I don't believe it sounded as good as this... (??)

Look, all props to Gene, because he has done a very good job with the tools he is using, and I do believe that no one - in the microtonal gang around here - has managed to get all the pieces together so well: the tunings, applying them to MIDI, getting them to render correctly, setting the final format, etc.

But this isn't even in the ballpark for "best orchestral emulation". If that is what you think, you either haven't done nearly enough listening, or you've been listening to the wrong things. The topic isn't strictly tuning, so we should probably go to meta, but this was discussed at length on MMM, and I even pointed out an article from Keyboard on how to massage sequences to make the instruments behave more like acoustic, orchestral fabrics.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> But this isn't even in the ballpark for "best orchestral
emulation". If that is what you think, you either haven't done nearly
enough listening, or you've been listening to the wrong things. The
topic isn't strictly tuning, so we should probably go to meta, but
this was discussed at length on MMM, and I even pointed out an
article from Keyboard on how to massage sequences to make the
instruments behave more like acoustic, orchestral fabrics.

These days they do a lot of this in the movie industry, and I'd like
to know more--what software tools are standard, for one thing.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52685

> Joe,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > I confess, this is the best orchestral emulation I have yet
heard.
> >
> > Somebody recently demonstrated orchestral emulation to me using
> > GigaStudio and I don't believe it sounded as good as this... (??)
>
> Look, all props to Gene, because he has done a very good job with
the tools he is using, and I do believe that no one - in the
microtonal gang around here - has managed to get all the pieces
together so well: the tunings, applying them to MIDI, getting them
to render correctly, setting the final format, etc.
>
> But this isn't even in the ballpark for "best orchestral
emulation". If that is what you think, you either haven't done
nearly enough listening, or you've been listening to the wrong
things. The topic isn't strictly tuning, so we should probably go to
meta, but this was discussed at length on MMM, and I even pointed
out an article from Keyboard on how to massage sequences to make the
instruments behave more like acoustic, orchestral fabrics.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Quite frankly, I'm not so interested in orchestral emulation,
anyway, which is probably why I haven't had the time to pay more
attention to this...

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52684

> >***Well, this is an interesting concept: direct MIDI to .wav
> >rendering, apparently:
> >
> >http://home.att.net/~audiocompositor/
> >
> >And, I guess all of this for only $40... :) (??)
> >
> >In any case, I was wondering about the microtuning.
> >
> >Does it recognize pitch bends from the original MIDI file, or do
you
> >use the "alternate tuning and microtuning" feature mentioned on
their
> >website??
>
> Egad JP, where have you been? There have been numeroso posts about
> Audio Compositor here, for years! You listened to the temperament
> shootout which was done with this, all (or most) of Gene's stuff is
> done with it or Timidity (similar software which is free).
>
> -Carl

***I answered this before, but messages are quite slow and the first
one may have even been lost today.

As I recall, I was one of the few people to listen to and evaluate
the "Temperament Shootout"...

But this still doesn't answer my question as to whether Audio
Compositor interprets MIDI pitch bends. I really don't have time to
go wading through this forum for those messages...

Tx,

JP

Hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> These days they do a lot of this in the movie industry, and I'd like
> to know more--what software tools are standard, for one thing.

This is pretty much what I was alluding to. While the article is dated, at least some of what we're talking about is somewhere in the archives of MMM; possibly a search on "magazine" or "James Newton Howard" would do it.

And the function of 'orchestral emulation' *is* a big part of the film/tv composers job, especially when mocking up a score to present to the director. The better the sound of an orch can be conjured (and therefore giving the expectant 'feel' to the score) the more likely the director will go for a sound stage recording. A LOT of this is done with both synthesis and hardware samplers - the Hollywood/London gang have *enormous* libraries of samples, and tech people to load them all up into multiple, multiple banks of hardware samplers. But now people are also using softsamplers too.

This is probably getting too OT. Meta or nothing...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> ***Quite frankly, I'm not so interested in orchestral emulation,
> anyway, which is probably why I haven't had the time to pay more
> attention to this...

Then your statement about the "best" emulation can now be taken in perspective!

Cheers,
Jon

>***I answered this before, but messages are quite slow and the first
>one may have even been lost today.
>
>As I recall, I was one of the few people to listen to and evaluate
>the "Temperament Shootout"...
>
>But this still doesn't answer my question as to whether Audio
>Compositor interprets MIDI pitch bends. I really don't have time to
>go wading through this forum for those messages...

Sorry, for some reason I took you to say you'd never heard of it.

All (or 99.99% of) MIDI instruments respect pitch bends. But MTS
is more accurate, and Audio Compositor also respects MTS, though
there's a flaw (as Manuel for the details) in its implementation.
So you can MTS-retune a file in Scala and render it with AC.

The native AC microtuning feature sucks rocks; don't worry about
it.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> All (or 99.99% of) MIDI instruments respect pitch bends. But MTS
> is more accurate, and Audio Compositor also respects MTS, though
> there's a flaw (as Manuel for the details) in its implementation.

The flaw is that it expects the retuned note to be near the sample
with the corresponding number. It works well if you retune 12 notes
to the octave to another 12 notes to the octave. It also is static;
you set a tuning at the start and stick with it. Since you only have
128 notes to tune, this limits you a great deal anyway.

Pitch bend has its own headaches, due to the limitation to 16
channels. If you issue a pitch bend for a given channel, anything
played on it will have that tuning. It's easy to run out of available
channels if you also have a lot of midi instruments in play, because
they work just like pitch bend--you tell a channel to play a
particular midi instrument, and until you change that, that is what
it does. So midi intruments and pitch bends can end up in competition
for a scarce resource, channels.

Needless to say, all of this pain is entirely unncessary and midi
should be fixed.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52690

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > ***Quite frankly, I'm not so interested in orchestral emulation,
> > anyway, which is probably why I haven't had the time to pay more
> > attention to this...
>
> Then your statement about the "best" emulation can now be taken in
perspective!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Yes, of course. Actually, I thought I just said it was the best
that "I had heard..." If not, I stand corrected, since I certainly
have a very limited knowledge of this area.

I do know *one* thing, however. The acquaintance of mine who bought
GigaStudio and "Vienna Samples" (or some name like that) paid
upwards of $5000 for all this, and Gene is, apparently, getting
somewhat comparable results for $40. That's enough to impress
*me*... :)

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52691

> >***I answered this before, but messages are quite slow and the
first
> >one may have even been lost today.
> >
> >As I recall, I was one of the few people to listen to and
evaluate
> >the "Temperament Shootout"...
> >
> >But this still doesn't answer my question as to whether Audio
> >Compositor interprets MIDI pitch bends. I really don't have time
to
> >go wading through this forum for those messages...
>
> Sorry, for some reason I took you to say you'd never heard of it.
>
> All (or 99.99% of) MIDI instruments respect pitch bends. But MTS
> is more accurate, and Audio Compositor also respects MTS, though
> there's a flaw (as Manuel for the details) in its implementation.
> So you can MTS-retune a file in Scala and render it with AC.
>
> The native AC microtuning feature sucks rocks; don't worry about
> it.
>
> -Carl

***Got it... thanks, Carl!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> I do know *one* thing, however. The acquaintance of mine who bought
> GigaStudio and "Vienna Samples" (or some name like that) paid
> upwards of $5000 for all this, and Gene is, apparently, getting
> somewhat comparable results for $40. That's enough to impress
> *me*... :)

All I can say is that your friend is misundertanding/misusing or otherwise very much *not* realizing the potential of his investment. I have heard those sample libraries used, and I know a number of Giga users, and it ain't the gear, it's how you use it. You *have* to know how to use the samples, how to play the parts in, and especially _how_to_phrase_. Pushing down keys and not paying attention to balance/mix just is never going to cut it.

But this is not uncommon, and I've learned the hard way how much you have to get into this to make a musical result come out the other end...

Cheers,
Jon

I agree with Jon. I've been using the GigaStudio and it's been the best
thing of its kind I've ever used or heard.

As for the $5000 pricetag that Joe's friend paid, I'd like to know how he
arrived at that figure (unless of course he's including the computer, MIDI
keyboard etc.).

The best GigaStudio 3 goes for around $200 and sampling libraries goes for
around $50 to $175 a disc depending on the quality. A fully loaded set-up
from Tascam is $599 (that's retail, you can get it at Sam Ash for around
$349 or $200 if bundled with a library like the Garritan - see below).

http://www.tascamgiga.com

Anyway, what did set me back were the Garritan Orchestral Strings but
they're worth every penny ($600+). It's a thrid-party company that I got
from a reccomendation on Wendy Carlos' web site. They also make a "lite"
version that goes for $250 or so.

http://www.garritan.com

What's really amazing is the way that it's controlled via a MIDI keyboard:
http://www.garritan.com/control.html

-PG

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 4:50 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Rubato Brahms

> > GigaStudio and "Vienna Samples" (or some name like that) paid
> > upwards of $5000 for all this, and Gene is, apparently, getting
> > somewhat comparable results for $40. That's enough to impress
> > *me*... :)
>
> All I can say is that your friend is misundertanding/misusing or otherwise
very much *not* realizing the potential of his investment. I have heard
those sample libraries used, and I know a number of Giga users, and it ain't
the gear, it's how you use it. You *have* to know how to use the samples,
how to play the parts in, and especially _how_to_phrase_. Pushing down keys
and not paying attention to balance/mix just is never going to cut it.
>
> But this is not uncommon, and I've learned the hard way how much you have
to get into this to make a musical result come out the other end...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Hi Pat,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:
> I agree with Jon.

...making you a very unique individual. :)

> What's really amazing is the way that it's controlled via a MIDI keyboard:
> http://www.garritan.com/control.html

Ahhh, as so much in life, it *is* a control issue. To put this subject to rest (for me), here is the article on one of the recent-past masters of MIDI orchestration, James Newton Howard:

http://archive.keyboardonline.com/features/jnhoward/index.shtml

He goes into pretty good detail about a lot of the elements that get left on the tuning-room floor around here, the elements that can take these melodies and phrases and rhythms and let them .b.r.e.a.t.h.e. Note that, in light of the discussion, that there are two mp3 clips, one with his orch mock-up, and the same passage with the final studio orch recordings - quite illuminating.

If you do make it to the end of the article, note that in the "Gear" section, there are numbers in parens next to the various samplers, synths, etc. Yes, indeed: *28* Roland S-760 samplers! Just par for the course in Hollywood these days, I'm sure Hans Zimmer had/has double that...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52684

> >***Well, this is an interesting concept: direct MIDI to .wav
> >rendering, apparently:
> >
> >http://home.att.net/~audiocompositor/
> >
> >And, I guess all of this for only $40... :) (??)
> >
> >In any case, I was wondering about the microtuning.
> >
> >Does it recognize pitch bends from the original MIDI file, or do
you
> >use the "alternate tuning and microtuning" feature mentioned on
their
> >website??
>
> Egad JP, where have you been? There have been numeroso posts about
> Audio Compositor here, for years! You listened to the temperament
> shootout which was done with this, all (or most) of Gene's stuff is
> done with it or Timidity (similar software which is free).
>
> -Carl

***Well, maybe I didn't follow that thread so closely at that time,
although I *did* listen to the "Temperament Shootout." In fact, as
I recall, I was one of the *few* people to respond and vote about it.

My question still isn't answered whether the alternate tuning is
primarily done with MIDI pitch bends before the conversion...

tx!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52695

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > I do know *one* thing, however. The acquaintance of mine who
bought
> > GigaStudio and "Vienna Samples" (or some name like that) paid
> > upwards of $5000 for all this, and Gene is, apparently, getting
> > somewhat comparable results for $40. That's enough to impress
> > *me*... :)
>
> All I can say is that your friend is misundertanding/misusing or
otherwise very much *not* realizing the potential of his investment.
I have heard those sample libraries used, and I know a number of Giga
users, and it ain't the gear, it's how you use it. You *have* to know
how to use the samples, how to play the parts in, and especially
_how_to_phrase_. Pushing down keys and not paying attention to
balance/mix just is never going to cut it.
>
> But this is not uncommon, and I've learned the hard way how much
you have to get into this to make a musical result come out the other
end...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***Hi Jon,

Yes, I can believe this. This fellow readily admits he's a novice at
this but, man... did he spend a lot of $...!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52697

> I agree with Jon. I've been using the GigaStudio and it's been the
best
> thing of its kind I've ever used or heard.
>
> As for the $5000 pricetag that Joe's friend paid, I'd like to know
how he
> arrived at that figure (unless of course he's including the
computer, MIDI
> keyboard etc.).
>

> The best GigaStudio 3 goes for around $200 and sampling libraries
goes for
> around $50 to $175 a disc depending on the quality. A fully loaded
set-up
> from Tascam is $599 (that's retail, you can get it at Sam Ash for
around
> $349 or $200 if bundled with a library like the Garritan - see
below).
>
> http://www.tascamgiga.com
>
> Anyway, what did set me back were the Garritan Orchestral Strings
but
> they're worth every penny ($600+). It's a thrid-party company that
I got
> from a reccomendation on Wendy Carlos' web site. They also make
a "lite"
> version that goes for $250 or so.
>
> http://www.garritan.com
>
> What's really amazing is the way that it's controlled via a MIDI
keyboard:
> http://www.garritan.com/control.html
>
> -PG
>

***Hi Patrick!

Thanks for the pricing updates and glad to hear you're enjoying
GigaStudio. Certainly I didn't want to say anything against it...
mostly because I know almost nothing about it :) except for this
short demo.

Yes, I think my friend was including his second new, fast computer he
uses for this and other hardware gear.

In addition, he bought these "Vienna Orchestra" samples and I believe
they were also quite expensive...

Anyway, there's no telling whether he was maximizing what he had or
spending more money than necessary... Dunno...

Tx!

Joe

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:

> I agree with Jon. I've been using the GigaStudio and it's been the
best
> thing of its kind I've ever used or heard.

So far as I know (and that may not be much) you can't use it for
rendering anything but 12 equal, in which case I am not interested,
even a little. However, do clue me if I'm wrong, because I've heard
giga is a bit better than sf2. Audio Compositor doesn't support it,
and Timidity either. What does?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Ahhh, as so much in life, it *is* a control issue. To put this
subject to rest (for me), here is the article on one of the recent-
past masters of MIDI orchestration, James Newton Howard:
>
> http://archive.keyboardonline.com/features/jnhoward/index.shtml

Thanks, Jon; this one is definitely a keeper.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:
>
> > I agree with Jon. I've been using the GigaStudio and it's been the
> best
> > thing of its kind I've ever used or heard.
>
> So far as I know (and that may not be much) you can't use it for
> rendering anything but 12 equal, in which case I am not interested,
> even a little. However, do clue me if I'm wrong, because I've heard
> giga is a bit better than sf2. Audio Compositor doesn't support it,
> and Timidity either. What does?

Are you on a windows machine? You might want to try out the polyhedric
software (polyhedric.com). Daniel Wolf uses wavmaker to render with
very good accuracy (I think he even got the developer to give him more
decimal places in one of the programs).

I'm in linuxland, myself (in Hungary now most computers come linux
bundled) and waiting for rosegarden to get better.

Gabor

>The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to the
>point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail pages.
>
>http://66.98.148.43/~xenharmo/brahms.htm

I finally got a chance to listen. What a smashing success!!

For some reason the files seem bass-heavy, would be my only
complaint.

That, and the tuning sounds too fixed to be a real orchestra. It's
something I didn't notice in the MIDI mockup from the Keyboard
article. I wonder what some random detuning centered on grail would
do to the sound?

Oh, and Gene, what tool(s) did you use to add the rubato? Or was
your source MIDI already performed that way?

Also, I wonder if you use the attack-random-staggering tool of
Nagler's. I find a nice subtle effect can be achieved with very
small ms values, though even those can munge tuplets.

-Carl

>That, and the tuning sounds too fixed to be a real orchestra. It's
>something I didn't notice in the MIDI mockup from the Keyboard
>article. I wonder what some random detuning centered on grail would
>do to the sound?

Not on the piano, of course!

Oh, and have you ever tried applying a *small* amount of post-
rendering expansion (say, in Cool Edit)? And/or I don't know if
Timidity offers any control, but Audio Compositor had some sort
of dynamic range value, IIRC. At any rate, I find orchestral MIDI
performances tend to be overcompressed.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to the
> >point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail pages.
>
> I finally got a chance to listen. What a smashing success!!

Especially if you don't know what an orchestra sounds like.

Cheers,
Jon

That is an interestin article. Thanks! That IS a keeper.

-Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 6:13 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Rubato Brahms

> Hi Pat,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:
> > I agree with Jon.
>
> ...making you a very unique individual. :)
>
> > What's really amazing is the way that it's controlled via a MIDI
keyboard:
> > http://www.garritan.com/control.html
>
> Ahhh, as so much in life, it *is* a control issue. To put this subject to
rest (for me), here is the article on one of the recent-past masters of MIDI
orchestration, James Newton Howard:
>
> http://archive.keyboardonline.com/features/jnhoward/index.shtml
>
> He goes into pretty good detail about a lot of the elements that get left
on the tuning-room floor around here, the elements that can take these
melodies and phrases and rhythms and let them .b.r.e.a.t.h.e. Note that, in
light of the discussion, that there are two mp3 clips, one with his orch
mock-up, and the same passage with the final studio orch recordings - quite
illuminating.
>
> If you do make it to the end of the article, note that in the "Gear"
section, there are numbers in parens next to the various samplers, synths,
etc. Yes, indeed: *28* Roland S-760 samplers! Just par for the course in
Hollywood these days, I'm sure Hans Zimmer had/has double that...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Actually you can tune all the samples in edit mode, otherwise why would I
have it? ;)

Also, for me at least, it works best when not approached so much as an
orchestral emulator as much as it does when approached as an instrument in
its own right and used for its particular strengths as opposed to it's
shortcomings as an imitation of something. It's great for ensemble stuff but
nothing can beat solo instruments like the real thing. For string sections,
I'll use a real violin, a real viola, cello etc. and then use the Gig
samples to fill out the sections. With the real thing in the foreground its
makes for good effect.

-Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 12:07 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Rubato Brahms

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:
>
> > I agree with Jon. I've been using the GigaStudio and it's been the
> best
> > thing of its kind I've ever used or heard.
>
> So far as I know (and that may not be much) you can't use it for
> rendering anything but 12 equal, in which case I am not interested,
> even a little. However, do clue me if I'm wrong, because I've heard
> giga is a bit better than sf2. Audio Compositor doesn't support it,
> and Timidity either. What does?
>
>

Hey Joe,

Yeah, you were right. I just checked out the Vienna Symphonic Library and it
in itself goes for over 5Gs.

http://www.ilio.com/vienna/

Whoa! At those prices I'd contract the real thing.

Anyways, enough of this before I'm told to take it to Meta!

Best,
-Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Rubato Brahms

> In addition, he bought these "Vienna Orchestra" samples and I believe
> they were also quite expensive...
>
> Tx!
>
> Joe
>

Pat,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:
> Also, for me at least, it works best when not approached so much as an
> orchestral emulator as much as it does when approached as an instrument in
> its own right and used for its particular strengths as opposed to it's
> shortcomings as an imitation of something.

Bingo!

> It's great for ensemble stuff but nothing can beat solo
> instruments like the real thing. For string sections,
> I'll use a real violin, a real viola, cello etc. and then use the Gig
> samples to fill out the sections. With the real thing in the foreground its
> makes for good effect.

Triple Bingo!!!

My good friend and colleague, Larry Groupe, has done this for years. (For pedigree, Larry scored the political 'thriller' of a couple years back, "The Contender", and is currently doing music for the ABC series "Line of Fire".) Anyhow, I've heard Larry do orchestral scores that were all electronic, with the simple addition of solo cello and solo clarinet, and the addition of a couple of acoustic instruments, phrasing the way they do, goes a very very long way to allowing one to hear the 'whole' in a new context. It does indeed breathe life into otherwise static emulations.

There are other ways to go, but this is a very effective tool for anyone working in that particular arena...

Cheers,
Jon

Yes, that's more like it, explaining the cost.

Incidently, it is interesting to know that the Garritan string library was
recorded at Lincoln Center and included in its string sections many AFMM
regulars like David Eggar, Max Mosten, etc. The package actually lists all
the players, their bios, and their instrument make.

-Patrick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: Rubato Brahms

>
> Thanks for the pricing updates and glad to hear you're enjoying
> GigaStudio. Certainly I didn't want to say anything against it...
> mostly because I know almost nothing about it :) except for this
> short demo.
>
> Yes, I think my friend was including his second new, fast computer he
> uses for this and other hardware gear.
>
> In addition, he bought these "Vienna Orchestra" samples and I believe
> they were also quite expensive...
>
> Anyway, there's no telling whether he was maximizing what he had or
> spending more money than necessary... Dunno...
>
> Tx!
>
> Joe
>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "alternativetuning"
<alternativetuning@y...> wrote:

> Are you on a windows machine? You might want to try out the
polyhedric
> software (polyhedric.com). Daniel Wolf uses wavmaker to render with
> very good accuracy (I think he even got the developer to give him
more
> decimal places in one of the programs).

I've got it. You get more decimal places than you need, and tuning
using tun files. The problem with it is, it doesn't sound that good
to me, and you can only use the polyhedric samples.

> I'm in linuxland, myself (in Hungary now most computers come linux
> bundled) and waiting for rosegarden to get better.

I havn't even figured out how to get Rosegarden to work! My soundcard
works fine when I boot Linux, but something about my setup throws a
lot of these nice programs I've downloaded from Stanford off.

As for computers with Linux, it's the only way to buy one; if Windows
is already installed its a big added expense. Here in Silicon Valley
we have an electronic supermarket chain called "Frys" which sometimes
sells good computers for $99 as a loss leader. You couldn't do that
with a Windows install. Another thing people sometimes do is take an
Xbox and put Linux on it.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Oh, and Gene, what tool(s) did you use to add the rubato?

Sibelius. I've now got Sibelius, Nytonyx and Superconductor, but
haven't had a chance yet to use Super.

> Also, I wonder if you use the attack-random-staggering tool of
> Nagler's.

No, but I might if I knew where to find it.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Oh, and have you ever tried applying a *small* amount of post-
> rendering expansion (say, in Cool Edit)?

I do post-rendering in Sound Forge sometimes; I could try it. Sound
Forge can deal with 24 or 32 bit files and convert them to 16 bits
after you've messed with them, so I should be able to do this nicely.

No, you can use any sample and any number of samples you like,
programmed with Mellosoftron (which is actually a great realtime
synth. to use now that CPUs are faster). If you are starting with
soundfonts, it seems like a more work, but that is because it predated
the soundfont standards.

Gabor

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> I've got it. You get more decimal places than you need, and tuning
> using tun files. The problem with it is, it doesn't sound that good
> to me, and you can only use the polyhedric samples.
>

>> >The Brahms second piano concerto, with ultra-heavy rubato to the
>> >point of turning into jazz, is up on both my Brahms and Grail pages.
>>
>> I finally got a chance to listen. What a smashing success!!
>
>Especially if you don't know what an orchestra sounds like.

Excuse me?

-Carl

>> Oh, and Gene, what tool(s) did you use to add the rubato?
>
>Sibelius.

Is that a plugin or did you just use an extreme playback style or...?
I didn't think the playback styles could be saved to MIDI.

>I've now got Sibelius, Nytonyx and Superconductor, but
>haven't had a chance yet to use Super.

Super is supposed to be pretty interesting. I'm looking up Nytonyx.
What I'm looking for is the "conductor feature", which allows you
to tap to trigger each consecutive MIDI event. Very simple feature
you'd think every sequencer would have, but I haven't been able to
find a single piece of software that does it.

>> Also, I wonder if you use the attack-random-staggering tool of
>> Nagler's.
>
>No, but I might if I knew where to find it.

You have all of Nagler's tools. I think it's called humanize.exe.

-Carl

>> Oh, and have you ever tried applying a *small* amount of post-
>> rendering expansion (say, in Cool Edit)?
>
>I do post-rendering in Sound Forge sometimes; I could try it. Sound
>Forge can deal with 24 or 32 bit files and convert them to 16 bits
>after you've messed with them, so I should be able to do this nicely.

Didn't know you have SF. The compressor is a little better than
Cool Edit, I think. Indeed, always dither down at the end.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Didn't know you have SF. The compressor is a little better than
> Cool Edit, I think. Indeed, always dither down at the end.

Dithering down is the SF default setting. Why is it important? It
seems to me with the amount of information, it wouldn't be.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> Oh, and Gene, what tool(s) did you use to add the rubato?
> >
> >Sibelius.
>
> Is that a plugin or did you just use an extreme playback style or...?
> I didn't think the playback styles could be saved to MIDI.
>
> >I've now got Sibelius, Nytonyx and Superconductor, but
> >haven't had a chance yet to use Super.
>
> Super is supposed to be pretty interesting. I'm looking up Nytonyx.

Nytonyx has not been very useful to me, but it's cheap. Super looks
like it will be quite useful, though it has problems importing complex
files--ones with a lot of instruments or pitch bends. I'll need to
work to find settings I like--I think the Clynes versions of things,
such as the Brandenbergs, are not very good.

> What I'm looking for is the "conductor feature", which allows you
> to tap to trigger each consecutive MIDI event. Very simple feature
> you'd think every sequencer would have, but I haven't been able to
> find a single piece of software that does it.
>
> >> Also, I wonder if you use the attack-random-staggering tool of
> >> Nagler's.
> >
> >No, but I might if I knew where to find it.
>
> You have all of Nagler's tools. I think it's called humanize.exe.

Apparently I don't have all his tools.

>> Didn't know you have SF. The compressor is a little better than
>> Cool Edit, I think. Indeed, always dither down at the end.
>
>Dithering down is the SF default setting. Why is it important? It
>seems to me with the amount of information, it wouldn't be.

http://tinyurl.com/2p5q8?__digido.com

-Carl

>Nytonyx has not been very useful to me, but it's cheap. Super looks
>like it will be quite useful, though it has problems importing complex
>files--ones with a lot of instruments or pitch bends. I'll need to
>work to find settings I like--I think the Clynes versions of things,
>such as the Brandenbergs, are not very good.

He's also a megalomaniac.

> Is that a plugin or did you just use an extreme playback style or...?
> I didn't think the playback styles could be saved to MIDI.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >Nytonyx has not been very useful to me, but it's cheap. Super looks
> >like it will be quite useful, though it has problems importing complex
> >files--ones with a lot of instruments or pitch bends. I'll need to
> >work to find settings I like--I think the Clynes versions of things,
> >such as the Brandenbergs, are not very good.
>
> He's also a megalomaniac.

I don't know where you learned that; maybe he should get together with
Tommy Anderberg of Polyhedric and compare nuts. His Brandenbergs
suffer from the fact that he's laying on the interpretation way too
thickly.

> > Is that a plugin or did you just use an extreme playback style or...?

He sent along his complete Brandenbergs on two CDs with a signed note.

> > I didn't think the playback styles could be saved to MIDI.

Some of it can be, with the export to midi feature, which is good or
the program would be useless to me.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52657.html#52716

> Hey Joe,
>
> Yeah, you were right. I just checked out the Vienna Symphonic
Library and it
> in itself goes for over 5Gs.
>
> http://www.ilio.com/vienna/
>
> Whoa! At those prices I'd contract the real thing.
>
> Anyways, enough of this before I'm told to take it to Meta!
>
> Best,
> -Patrick
>

***Thanks, Patrick, for finding this link... Yeah... there's *got* to
be a better way... $$

best,

Joe

>> >Nytonyx has not been very useful to me, but it's cheap. Super looks
>> >like it will be quite useful, though it has problems importing complex
>> >files--ones with a lot of instruments or pitch bends. I'll need to
>> >work to find settings I like--I think the Clynes versions of things,
>> >such as the Brandenbergs, are not very good.
>>
>> He's also a megalomaniac.
>
>I don't know where you learned that;

Just my impression dealing with him a few years back.

>> > Is that a plugin or did you just use an extreme playback style or...?
>
>He sent along his complete Brandenbergs on two CDs with a signed note.

Sakes, Gene, this is my unanswered question about _Sibelius_.

>> > I didn't think the playback styles could be saved to MIDI.
>
>Some of it can be, with the export to midi feature, which is good or
>the program would be useless to me.

Sibelius?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> >> > Is that a plugin or did you just use an extreme playback style
or...?
> >
> >He sent along his complete Brandenbergs on two CDs with a signed note.
>
> Sakes, Gene, this is my unanswered question about _Sibelius_.

Actually, I didn't use any extreme amount of rubato; the nature of the
music was such that a little of it exaggerated syncopation and rubato
which was already there. Sibelius has extreme settings; I don't find
them useful.

> >> > I didn't think the playback styles could be saved to MIDI.
> >
> >Some of it can be, with the export to midi feature, which is good or
> >the program would be useless to me.
>
> Sibelius?

Superconductor, but Sibelius saves messed-with midi files also.