current state of Tonalsoft software

slight apology for the cross post, but after i sent
this to metatuning i realized that it would be perfect
appropriate here.

-monz

---------------------

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <PERLICH@A...>
> wrote:
> > > Especially now, we need this. Monz and company
> > > should be offering the first step to our salvation soon . . .
> >
> > The salvation being making music.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
>
>
> our Tonalsoft application already does the 3-dimensional
> rotatable lattice diagrams, and piano-roll-type MIDI sequencing.
>
> we're starting work on staff-notation now.
>
>
>
> -monz

but of course, i hasten to add, the piano-roll is not
necessarily quantized to 12-tET (unless you want it to be)
as all other sequencer programs are.

you start out by setting up a prime-space, choosing which
prime-factors you want in your tuning universe, and how
far out their exponents go. the software then creates
a lattice diagram of that. essentially, it's an
n-dimensional Euler-genus.

then you create a tuning system from the prime-space,
and the software creates a lattice of that. you may leave
everything rational (i.e., "just intonation"), or temper
it in various ways. if you choose to temper your
originally-rational-tuning-system, the software warps
the lattice so that various ends of it meet to form
circles.

then you simply use the mouse to grab notes from the
lattice (which you can hear when you click them) and
drop them into your piano-roll score.

the piano-roll is quantized horizontally for time
by measures and beats, and vertically for pitch according
to whatever type of tuning system you've set up.

the beauty of the Tonalsoft software is that the user
doesn't have to be concerned in the least about dealing
with pitch-bend commands. you simply create your tuning
system using primarily visual methods and the software
does all the rest.

-monz

Monz,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> the beauty of the Tonalsoft software is that the user
> doesn't have to be concerned in the least about dealing
> with pitch-bend commands. you simply create your tuning
> system using primarily visual methods and the software
> does all the rest.

Don't differing output devices respond to pitch bends differently?

Cheers,
Jon

hi Jon,

(this was written for metatuning but properly belongs here)

--- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Joe,
>
> A couple of thoughts, not in any order...
>
> 1. Care to shed any light on how you are testing the software,
mainly in regard to how it outputs actual sound?

well, most likely version 1.0 (commercial release expected
for July 2004) will output only via the computer's soundcard.

future upgrades will of course provide output for all
manner of currently available synthesizers and other
electronic devices. but we had to limit the software in
many ways just to be able to release it this year.

> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > you start out by setting up a prime-space, choosing which
> > prime-factors you want in your tuning universe, and how
> > far out their exponents go. the software then creates
> > a lattice diagram of that. essentially, it's an
> > n-dimensional Euler-genus.
>
> Well, that leave *me* out of it. Unless you plan on having
> a Tonalsoft for Dummies. "n-dimensional Euler-genus"? Yikes.
> But I'm sure it will be just the ticket for some folks...

i've finally just finished uploading all the old webpages
to the new Tonalsoft site, and they still need some editing.
but my next job is to start creating help files. after
that comes the Tutorial, on which i've already started.

don't get scared by such descriptions as "n-dimensional
Euler genus" ... all that means is that you pick the
prime-factors you want to use to describe your tuning
(which act as axes on the lattice-diagrams), then choose
how far out you want the exponents on each of those
axes to go, and the software creates a "chunk" of
prime-space which includes all ratios within that chunk.

from that "chunk", you choose the pitches you actually
want in your tuning system (or instead you may decide
to temper them, which eliminates various dimensions and
thus wraps the lattice up into various interesting shapes).
the software then creates a second "tuning system" lattice.

then you simply drag pitches from the lattice onto your
score ... which at present is only in piano-roll-style
format. but version 1.0 will include staff-notation too.

> > the piano-roll is quantized horizontally for time
> > by measures and beats, and vertically for pitch according
> > to whatever type of tuning system you've set up.
>
> Do you plan on making it as flexible in terms of rhythmic
> fabric as you are in terms of pitch, or will be be locked
> into measures/beats?

of course we plan to give great rhythmic flexibility
... but version 1.0 may be somewhat locked into "traditional"
musical rhythmic capabilities. however, it will include
all manner of tuplets.

> Sounds like you've made amazing progress.

we've been working *really* hard on this for exactly
a year now.

> I really hope your company institutes a strong test program,
> getting it out to enough alpha/beta users to really bang
> it around. As painful as they are, bugs are best found
> before shrink-wrap time!

we hope to have the alpha release out by April, and beta
within a couple of months after that.

we only have in mind a couple of alpha-testers and a
small handful of beta-testers, but hopefully they'll be
able to bang it around plenty. ... and, i'm hoping that
*you*, Jon Szanto AKA MakeMicroMusic list-mom, will
be one of those tough beta-testers. :)

-monz

I have some clarification to the attached discussion regarding
supported synthsizers:

1) Release 1.0 of the Tonalsoft application will perform playback
to Midi devices available on the computer. It will support using
traditional pitch-bend or MTS for playback (if the target
synthesizer supports MTS). This includes the PC sound card as well
as external synthesizers.

2) We are NOT, however, married to Midi. We employ a synthesizer
abstraction-layer which allows us to continue adding new sound
drivers in the future. We will then start to include Windows native
drivers for popular sound cards that will squeeze more microtonal
sound from them.

3) You will be able to test compatibility for your system and
syntheisizers by downloading and installing a free demo version.
The demo version will be fully featured with no expiration date, but
both printing and saving will be disabled.

Cheers,

Chris Wittmann

=====================================================================
=====================================================================

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi Jon,
>
>
> (this was written for metatuning but properly belongs here)
>
>
> --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...>
wrote:
>
> > Joe,
> >
> > A couple of thoughts, not in any order...
> >
> > 1. Care to shed any light on how you are testing the software,
> mainly in regard to how it outputs actual sound?
>
>
> well, most likely version 1.0 (commercial release expected
> for July 2004) will output only via the computer's soundcard.
>
> future upgrades will of course provide output for all
> manner of currently available synthesizers and other
> electronic devices. but we had to limit the software in
> many ways just to be able to release it this year.
>
>
>
> > --- In metatuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > you start out by setting up a prime-space, choosing which
> > > prime-factors you want in your tuning universe, and how
> > > far out their exponents go. the software then creates
> > > a lattice diagram of that. essentially, it's an
> > > n-dimensional Euler-genus.
> >
> > Well, that leave *me* out of it. Unless you plan on having
> > a Tonalsoft for Dummies. "n-dimensional Euler-genus"? Yikes.
> > But I'm sure it will be just the ticket for some folks...
>
>
> i've finally just finished uploading all the old webpages
> to the new Tonalsoft site, and they still need some editing.
> but my next job is to start creating help files. after
> that comes the Tutorial, on which i've already started.
>
> don't get scared by such descriptions as "n-dimensional
> Euler genus" ... all that means is that you pick the
> prime-factors you want to use to describe your tuning
> (which act as axes on the lattice-diagrams), then choose
> how far out you want the exponents on each of those
> axes to go, and the software creates a "chunk" of
> prime-space which includes all ratios within that chunk.
>
> from that "chunk", you choose the pitches you actually
> want in your tuning system (or instead you may decide
> to temper them, which eliminates various dimensions and
> thus wraps the lattice up into various interesting shapes).
> the software then creates a second "tuning system" lattice.
>
> then you simply drag pitches from the lattice onto your
> score ... which at present is only in piano-roll-style
> format. but version 1.0 will include staff-notation too.
>
>
>
> > > the piano-roll is quantized horizontally for time
> > > by measures and beats, and vertically for pitch according
> > > to whatever type of tuning system you've set up.
> >
> > Do you plan on making it as flexible in terms of rhythmic
> > fabric as you are in terms of pitch, or will be be locked
> > into measures/beats?
>
>
> of course we plan to give great rhythmic flexibility
> ... but version 1.0 may be somewhat locked into "traditional"
> musical rhythmic capabilities. however, it will include
> all manner of tuplets.
>
>
>
> > Sounds like you've made amazing progress.
>
>
> we've been working *really* hard on this for exactly
> a year now.
>
>
>
> > I really hope your company institutes a strong test program,
> > getting it out to enough alpha/beta users to really bang
> > it around. As painful as they are, bugs are best found
> > before shrink-wrap time!
>
>
> we hope to have the alpha release out by April, and beta
> within a couple of months after that.
>
> we only have in mind a couple of alpha-testers and a
> small handful of beta-testers, but hopefully they'll be
> able to bang it around plenty. ... and, i'm hoping that
> *you*, Jon Szanto AKA MakeMicroMusic list-mom, will
> be one of those tough beta-testers. :)
>
>
>
> -monz

just so that everyone knows: Chris "outthewazoo2002" Wittmann
is my business partner in Tonalsoft Inc.

he had written a bit of an introduction to this post, but
had problems sending it at first and inadvertently deleted
his introduction.

he's been silent until now, but as people have specific
questions about the Tonalsoft application, he'll probably
reply if he can answer better than i.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "outthewazoo2002" <chris@t...> wrote:
> I have some clarification to the attached discussion regarding
> supported synthsizers:
>
> <snip>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> we only have in mind a couple of alpha-testers and a
> small handful of beta-testers, but hopefully they'll be
> able to bang it around plenty. ...

Two alpha testers? You and your partner??

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "outthewazoo2002" <chris@t...> wrote:

> 2) We are NOT, however, married to Midi.

Are you married to keyboards, or can people just use their computer?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> he's been silent until now, but as people have specific
> questions about the Tonalsoft application, he'll probably
> reply if he can answer better than i.

I've continued to push for chord lattice capabilities for realtime
noodling. Has any thought been given to them?

>1) Release 1.0 of the Tonalsoft application will perform playback
>to Midi devices available on the computer. It will support using
>traditional pitch-bend or MTS for playback (if the target
>synthesizer supports MTS). This includes the PC sound card as well
>as external synthesizers.
>
>2) We are NOT, however, married to Midi. We employ a synthesizer
>abstraction-layer which allows us to continue adding new sound
>drivers in the future. We will then start to include Windows native
>drivers for popular sound cards that will squeeze more microtonal
>sound from them.
>
>3) You will be able to test compatibility for your system and
>syntheisizers by downloading and installing a free demo version.
>The demo version will be fully featured with no expiration date, but
>both printing and saving will be disabled.

Great Chris!! That's perfect! I can't wait... :8{)

-Carl

Hi Gene,

About testing. We've implemented multiple layers of testing from Unit Test (UT), to System Test (ST), to Alpha Test (AT) and to Beta Test (BT). FYI, these measures are internal. We are also in the process of launching our "Pre-Release Programme". We feel that between our internal testing and the Pre-Release Programme, we can provide software that meets expecations. As we improve our processes, we should be able to exceed those expecations.

Cheers,

Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Ward Smith
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 1:28 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: current state of Tonalsoft software

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> we only have in mind a couple of alpha-testers and a
> small handful of beta-testers, but hopefully they'll be
> able to bang it around plenty. ...

Two alpha testers? You and your partner??

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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "outthewazoo2002" <chris@t...> wrote:
>
> > 2) We are NOT, however, married to Midi.
>
> Are you married to keyboards, or can people just
> use their computer?

as i said here:
/tuning/topicId_52277.html#52320

version 1.0 will definitely allow the user to compose
microtonal music using only a computer and soundcard.

as Chris pointed out, release 1.0 will also perform
playback with connected external synthesizers. release 1.1
will allow input from external keyboards as well -- and
from the computer keyboard too.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > he's been silent until now, but as people have specific
> > questions about the Tonalsoft application, he'll probably
> > reply if he can answer better than i.
>
> I've continued to push for chord lattice capabilities for
> realtime noodling. Has any thought been given to them?

can you elaborate on what you mean specifically?

i understand you to mean creating lattice-diagrams
of tuning systems (in your case, i know that you're
particularly interested in temperaments), and then
easily being able to play around with the notes of
the lattice and listen to the resulting music.

if so, then yes, you'll be able to do that with our
Tonalsoft application. but our focus is really on
*composition* -- creating an actual score of an
actual piece. "noodling" is something that i think
you can already do easily with Scala etc.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> can you elaborate on what you mean specifically?
>
> i understand you to mean creating lattice-diagrams
> of tuning systems (in your case, i know that you're
> particularly interested in temperaments), and then
> easily being able to play around with the notes of
> the lattice and listen to the resulting music.

No, I meant having something showing the 5-limit hexagonal array of
JI triads or the 7-limit cubic lattice of JI tetrads depicted, which
could be somehow activated (mouse over, perhaps) to give the chord,
to be used in harmonizing a 5 or 7 limit JI melody. The idea is that
this could be useful in creating music, particularly if it was to
have a homophonic character.

> if so, then yes, you'll be able to do that with our
> Tonalsoft application. but our focus is really on
> *composition* -- creating an actual score of an
> actual piece. "noodling" is something that i think
> you can already do easily with Scala etc.

This is high-power noodling. Scala does not noodle quite that
elaborately.

By the way, what is "the lattice" when discussing linear
temperaments? Is it anything like what I was calling a Bosanquet
lattice?
>
> -monz

>> > he's been silent until now, but as people have specific
>> > questions about the Tonalsoft application, he'll probably
>> > reply if he can answer better than i.
>>
>> I've continued to push for chord lattice capabilities for
>> realtime noodling. Has any thought been given to them?
>
>
>can you elaborate on what you mean specifically?

I think Gene (as I) is pining for the lattice-of-chords, where
each lattice point triggers a chord, like the left hand on a
fancy accordion. In the 7-limit this is the cubic latice.
And the 7-limit is the only limit for which the dual of the
chord lattice is the pitch lattice. Or something like that.

By the way, Gene, have you seen:

/tuning/files/carl/488.jpg

Touching the octagonal tiles plays the associated pentad.
Touching a square might play the neighboring octagons or maybe
the neighboring squares...

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> I think Gene (as I) is pining for the lattice-of-chords, where
> each lattice point triggers a chord, like the left hand on a
> fancy accordion.

Right. A 7-limit JI accordian for dummies, to be used to map out the
harmony. Gets you used to the idea it is 3D motion anyway, possibly.

> And the 7-limit is the only limit for which the dual of the
> chord lattice is the pitch lattice. Or something like that.

7-limit is the only limit in which the chord lattice is a lattice, by
the strict definition of "lattice" which it seems I am the only one
who uses around here.

> By the way, Gene, have you seen:
>
> /tuning/files/carl/488.jpg
>
> Touching the octagonal tiles plays the associated pentad.

Exceedingly cool. Did you come up with this?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > I think Gene (as I) is pining for the lattice-of-chords, where
> > each lattice point triggers a chord, like the left hand on a
> > fancy accordion.
>
> Right. A 7-limit JI accordian for dummies, to be used to map out the
> harmony. Gets you used to the idea it is 3D motion anyway, possibly.
>
> > And the 7-limit is the only limit for which the dual of the
> > chord lattice is the pitch lattice. Or something like that.
>
> 7-limit is the only limit in which the chord lattice is a lattice,
by
> the strict definition of "lattice" which it seems I am the only one
> who uses around here.

Why would you say that? I've always insisted, with you, that the 5-
limit chord 'lattice' is not a lattice.

>> By the way, Gene, have you seen:
>>
>> /tuning/files/carl/488.jpg
>>
>> Touching the octagonal tiles plays the associated pentad.
>
>Exceedingly cool. Did you come up with this?

The subtitle is, 'guess where I was sitting when I came
up with this!'. Har har. I later checked other archimedean
tilings, but didn't come up with anything.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> i understand you to mean creating lattice-diagrams
> of tuning systems (in your case, i know that you're
> particularly interested in temperaments)...

Just to clear up a possible source of confusion, you might note my
last three pieces were all strict JI.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> Why would you say that? I've always insisted, with you, that the 5-
> limit chord 'lattice' is not a lattice.

Then why have you been so derisive about this usage, with talk of how
chemists use the word? What *is* your current definition of "lattice"?

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > can you elaborate on what you mean specifically?
> >
> > i understand you to mean creating lattice-diagrams
> > of tuning systems (in your case, i know that you're
> > particularly interested in temperaments), and then
> > easily being able to play around with the notes of
> > the lattice and listen to the resulting music.
>
> No, I meant having something showing the 5-limit hexagonal
> array of JI triads or the 7-limit cubic lattice of JI tetrads
> depicted, which could be somehow activated (mouse over, perhaps)
> to give the chord, to be used in harmonizing a 5 or 7 limit JI
> melody. The idea is that this could be useful in creating music,
> particularly if it was to have a homophonic character.

we already have a form of mouse lattice noodling, coming
up in release 1.0, that's really useful for composition.
but it requires more mouse clicks and keystrokes than
what you probably want right now.

we would like to work with you to define how a more
advanced noodling capability could be implemented for
release 1.1.

> > if so, then yes, you'll be able to do that with our
> > Tonalsoft application. but our focus is really on
> > *composition* -- creating an actual score of an
> > actual piece. "noodling" is something that i think
> > you can already do easily with Scala etc.
>
> This is high-power noodling. Scala does not noodle quite that
> elaborately.
>
> By the way, what is "the lattice" when discussing linear
> temperaments? Is it anything like what I was calling a
> Bosanquet lattice?

we use unison-vectors to remove dimensions from the lattice,
which wraps them, to give helixes and toruses, etc.

i've been busy with the software project and not following
the tuning lists in total detail, so i don't what the
Bosanquet lattice is.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> i've been busy with the software project and not following
> the tuning lists in total detail, so i don't what the
> Bosanquet lattice is.

It's a lattice which gives a kind of mathematical formalization of a
Bosanquet keyboard suitable to a particular linear temperament.

>>> /tuning/files/carl/488.jpg
>>>
>>> Touching the octagonal tiles plays the associated pentad.
>>
>>Exceedingly cool. Did you come up with this?
>
>The subtitle is, 'guess where I was sitting when I came
>up with this!'. Har har. I later checked other archimedean
>tilings, but didn't come up with anything.

Actually I see I've 'merged with my own cover story' here. In
fact I came up with this after reading a recreational math column
on tessellation, and came up with the joke later. Our bathrooms
did employ this tiling, though.

Inspired by this, or related to it, Dave came up with 9-limit
lattices of this type...

http://dkeenan.com/Music/ErlichPentDec9Lattice.gif

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:]

/tuning/topicId_52277.html#52320

>> well, most likely version 1.0 (commercial release expected
> for July 2004) will output only via the computer's soundcard.
>
> future upgrades will of course provide output for all
> manner of currently available synthesizers and other
> electronic devices. but we had to limit the software in
> many ways just to be able to release it this year.
>

***Not to get crass, but how much will this be retailing for, Monz??
And is this the price for Tuning List groupies??

Tx,

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52277.html#52325

>
> just so that everyone knows: Chris "outthewazoo2002" Wittmann
> is my business partner in Tonalsoft Inc.
>
> he had written a bit of an introduction to this post, but
> had problems sending it at first and inadvertently deleted
> his introduction.
>
> he's been silent until now, but as people have specific
> questions about the Tonalsoft application, he'll probably
> reply if he can answer better than i.
>
>
> -monz
>
>

***Just FYI, he had been put on "moderated" status, probably because
his email handle was "outthewazoo2002..." Maybe not such a wise
choice...

I think he's been taken off that now...

J. Pehrson

>***Just FYI, he had been put on "moderated" status, probably because
>his email handle was "outthewazoo2002..." Maybe not such a wise
>choice...

Joseph,

Weren't you part of the thread where Mark made this group 'new users
automatically moderated'? That's one of the reasons we got you on
board -- to help approve new users with less delay.

Did you get my off-list message?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52277.html#52384

> >***Just FYI, he had been put on "moderated" status, probably
because
> >his email handle was "outthewazoo2002..." Maybe not such a wise
> >choice...
>
> Joseph,
>
> Weren't you part of the thread where Mark made this group 'new users
> automatically moderated'? That's one of the reasons we got you on
> board -- to help approve new users with less delay.
>
> Did you get my off-list message?
>
> -Carl

***Hi Carl,

Yes, and I let his messages go through.

However, I didn't think I had the "authority" to determine when a new
user would be on or off "moderated status..." Do I? Isn't that just
the *list owner...*

Sorry for the confusion. I guess I don't fully understand
my "powers..."

JP

>***Hi Carl,
>
>Yes, and I let his messages go through.
>
>However, I didn't think I had the "authority" to determine when a new
>user would be on or off "moderated status..." Do I? Isn't that just
>the *list owner...*

I believe you have the power to moderate and unmoderate users, just
like Gene and I. You don't have the power to change the list default
for new users (only Mark can do that). That default is now
"moderated", so spam will supposedly never have a chance to get
through. Which was why I was so shocked recently when a piece of
spam did get through.

>Sorry for the confusion. I guess I don't fully understand
>my "powers..."

See if you can follow the instructions in my off-list mail to
unmoderate the user with e-mail address kalashnikov2003@yahoo.com.
Contact me off-list if you have any questions.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > By the way, what is "the lattice" when discussing linear
> > temperaments? Is it anything like what I was calling a
> > Bosanquet lattice?
>
>
>
> we use unison-vectors to remove dimensions from the lattice,
> which wraps them, to give helixes and toruses, etc.

an example of this is the lattice-diagram on the
left side of our hompage.

http://tonalsoft.com

it's in the shape of a 4-strand helix,
depicting 2/7-comma meantone.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> > Why would you say that? I've always insisted, with you, that the
5-
> > limit chord 'lattice' is not a lattice.
>
> Then why have you been so derisive about this usage, with talk of
how
> chemists use the word?

I thought we settled that . . . some people had put this forth as the
definition of lattice:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lattice.html

but I thought this usage would be more appropriate here:

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PointLattice.html

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > By the way, what is "the lattice" when discussing linear
> > > temperaments? Is it anything like what I was calling a
> > > Bosanquet lattice?
> >
> >
> >
> > we use unison-vectors to remove dimensions from the lattice,
> > which wraps them, to give helixes and toruses, etc.
>
>
>
> an example of this is the lattice-diagram on the
> left side of our hompage.
>
> http://tonalsoft.com
>
> it's in the shape of a 4-strand helix,
> depicting 2/7-comma meantone.
>
>
>
> -monz

Monz,

I'm so glad you're running so far with this idea of mine. But could
you explain to me why this is 2/7-comma meantone and not any other
variety of meantone?

-Paul

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52277.html#52389

> >***Hi Carl,
> >
> >Yes, and I let his messages go through.
> >
> >However, I didn't think I had the "authority" to determine when a
new
> >user would be on or off "moderated status..." Do I? Isn't that
just
> >the *list owner...*
>
> I believe you have the power to moderate and unmoderate users, just
> like Gene and I. You don't have the power to change the list
default
> for new users (only Mark can do that). That default is now
> "moderated", so spam will supposedly never have a chance to get
> through. Which was why I was so shocked recently when a piece of
> spam did get through.
>

***Is it possible that that message arrived *before* Mark changed
that setting?? Otherwise, could there be any other explanation for
that??

TX,

JP

>> I believe you have the power to moderate and unmoderate users, just
>> like Gene and I. You don't have the power to change the list
>> default for new users (only Mark can do that). That default is now
>> "moderated", so spam will supposedly never have a chance to get
>> through. Which was why I was so shocked recently when a piece of
>> spam did get through.
>
>***Is it possible that that message arrived *before* Mark changed
>that setting?? Otherwise, could there be any other explanation for
>that??

No, but it's possible the user did. I had gone through the roster
and removed suspicious types, and usually spammers don't wait that
long before becoming active, but I guess in this case they did.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lattice.html

I don't know why you are bringing this up--both defintions of lattice
are unfortunately very firmly established, but this obviously isn't
what we are talking about.
>
> but I thought this usage would be more appropriate here:
>
> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PointLattice.html

When I first showed up I wanted to use "lattice" this way, and you
beat me up a little for it. Something has clearly changed, and it
ain't me.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
>
> > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Lattice.html
>
> I don't know why you are bringing this up--both defintions of
lattice
> are unfortunately very firmly established, but this obviously isn't
> what we are talking about.

I bring it up because this is the only definition that I objected to
here, and you brought up my objecting!

> > but I thought this usage would be more appropriate here:
> >
> > http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PointLattice.html
>
> When I first showed up I wanted to use "lattice" this way, and you
> beat me up a little for it. Something has clearly changed, and it
> ain't me.

I doubt that you're right about that, but if you are, I must have
misunderstood you as agreeing with John, Monz, and whoever else was
putting forth the "partial ordering" definition.

hi paul,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > >
> > > we use unison-vectors to remove dimensions from the lattice,
> > > which wraps them, to give helixes and toruses, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > an example of this is the lattice-diagram on the
> > left side of our hompage.
> >
> > http://tonalsoft.com
> >
> > it's in the shape of a 4-strand helix,
> > depicting 2/7-comma meantone.
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> Monz,
>
> I'm so glad you're running so far with this idea of mine.
> But could you explain to me why this is 2/7-comma meantone
> and not any other variety of meantone?

simply because it's a screenshot, and 2/7-comma meantone
happened to be the flavor of meantone we used when we
created that lattice and took the screenshot.

as you (paul) well know, any flavor of meantone will
end up having the same type of helical lattice. the
key consideration is the tempering-out of the syntonic-comma,
which has the effect of making 3^4 = 5^1, thus twisting
the lattice into the helical shape. this is the same
for all meantones.

so 2/7-comma isn't otherwise significant in that screenshot
... it's just representative of all meantones.

the significance lies in the fact that the Tonalsoft
application is not intended to simply create "example"
graphics ... it's intended to produce *music*, which
can't be tuned in some "generic" meantone (as can text
explanations of meantone), but must be tuned in a *specific*
form of meantone in order to produce audio output.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> hi paul,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > we use unison-vectors to remove dimensions from the lattice,
> > > > which wraps them, to give helixes and toruses, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > an example of this is the lattice-diagram on the
> > > left side of our hompage.
> > >
> > > http://tonalsoft.com
> > >
> > > it's in the shape of a 4-strand helix,
> > > depicting 2/7-comma meantone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -monz
> >
> > Monz,
> >
> > I'm so glad you're running so far with this idea of mine.
> > But could you explain to me why this is 2/7-comma meantone
> > and not any other variety of meantone?
>
>
>
> simply because it's a screenshot, and 2/7-comma meantone
> happened to be the flavor of meantone we used when we
> created that lattice and took the screenshot.
>
> as you (paul) well know, any flavor of meantone will
> end up having the same type of helical lattice. the
> key consideration is the tempering-out of the syntonic-comma,
> which has the effect of making 3^4 = 5^1, thus twisting
> the lattice into the helical shape. this is the same
> for all meantones.
>
> so 2/7-comma isn't otherwise significant in that screenshot
> ... it's just representative of all meantones.
>
> the significance lies in the fact that the Tonalsoft
> application is not intended to simply create "example"
> graphics ... it's intended to produce *music*, which
> can't be tuned in some "generic" meantone (as can text
> explanations of meantone), but must be tuned in a *specific*
> form of meantone in order to produce audio output.
>
>
>
> -monz

That's all well and good, Monz. But since you said it was "depicting
2/7-comma meantone", rather than "depicting meantone", I just thought
there would be something in the depiction, such as the exact rung
lengths or angles or a notational detail or something, which would
give different meantones a different appearance. I guess not! (The
recent TOP work would interest you greatly, since [for cases like
meantone] it's visual/spacial/geometrical and based on the Tenney
lattice, and completely abandons 'odd-limit' in favor of 'prime
limit' -- possibly the first tuning strategy that truly does so.)

hi paul,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> That's all well and good, Monz. But since you said it

... that is, the screenshot from the Tonalsoft application at
http://tonalsoft.com

> was "depicting 2/7-comma meantone", rather than "depicting
> meantone", I just thought there would be something in the
> depiction, such as the exact rung lengths or angles or a
> notational detail or something, which would give different
> meantones a different appearance. I guess not!

not *yet*! :)

i've tried to convince Chris to implement my own lattice
formula, and eventually of course we want to be able to
use all manner of different lattice structures. but for
right now, just to get release 1.0 out, he decided to go
for maximum orthogonality for up to 3 dimensions.

the software can actually depict up to 7 dimensions in
the 3-D projection, but Chris would have to explain how
he chose the angles for the axes in dimensions 4 thru 7

> (The recent TOP work would interest you greatly, since
> [for cases like meantone] it's visual/spacial/geometrical
> and based on the Tenney lattice, and completely abandons
> 'odd-limit' in favor of 'prime limit' -- possibly the
> first tuning strategy that truly does so.)

yes, i *am* very interested in TOP ... i just haven't had
the time to follow the discussions. you guys started talking
about this just weeks after Chris and i came up with some TOP
tunings of our own, using the software.

... and i'm *very* glad to see prime-limit finally getting
its due!

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> yes, i *am* very interested in TOP ... i just haven't had
> the time to follow the discussions. you guys started talking
> about this just weeks after Chris and i came up with some TOP
> tunings of our own,

You're kidding! Which ones?