smoking gun: Schoenberg's quarter-tone sketch

eureka!

at last, i've found my own personal holy grail!

the first page of Schoenberg's "Sketchbook III", from
April 1906, contains a sketch for the beautiful lyrical
theme of his _Kammersymphonie_ (1st Chamber Symphony, op. 9).
(he had started this composition in the previous sketchbook.)

but right under that, encircled, is a sketch of a bit
of a scale which descends from C to Bb then ascends back
up to C, in quarter-tones, using the mathematical
"greater-than" and "less-than" symbols:

http://www.schoenberg.at/scans/Ms77/Ms77/Sk179.jpg

this is a full 3 years earlier than the date i had
previously supposed for Schoenberg's quarter-tone
experiments!

see his letter to Busoni of 1909.08.24:
http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/to-busoni-1909-8-24.htm

if anyone can decipher and translate the German words
which Schoenberg wrote to the left of that sketch,
i'd really appreciate that.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> eureka!
>
> at last, i've found my own personal holy grail!
>
>
> the first page of Schoenberg's "Sketchbook III", from
> April 1906, contains a sketch for the beautiful lyrical
> theme of his _Kammersymphonie_ (1st Chamber Symphony, op. 9).
> (he had started this composition in the previous sketchbook.)
>
>
> but right under that, encircled, is a sketch of a bit
> of a scale which descends from C to Bb then ascends back
> up to C, in quarter-tones, using the mathematical
> "greater-than" and "less-than" symbols:
>
> http://www.schoenberg.at/scans/Ms77/Ms77/Sk179.jpg
>
>
> this is a full 3 years earlier than the date i had
> previously supposed for Schoenberg's quarter-tone
> experiments!
>
>
> see his letter to Busoni of 1909.08.24:
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/to-busoni-1909-8-24.htm
>
>
> if anyone can decipher and translate the German words
> which Schoenberg wrote to the left of that sketch,
> i'd really appreciate that.

the first word starts with "B", and i'm pretty sure the
rest of it says "für den Vierteltöne".

-monz

monz wrote:
> eureka!

wow!!!!!

>
> at last, i've found my own personal holy grail!
>
>
> the first page of Schoenberg's "Sketchbook III", from
> April 1906, contains a sketch for the beautiful lyrical
> theme of his _Kammersymphonie_ (1st Chamber Symphony, op. 9).
> (he had started this composition in the previous sketchbook.)
>
>
> but right under that, encircled, is a sketch of a bit
> of a scale which descends from C to Bb then ascends back
> up to C, in quarter-tones, using the mathematical
> "greater-than" and "less-than" symbols:
>
> http://www.schoenberg.at/scans/Ms77/Ms77/Sk179.jpg

"Bezeichnung für die Vierteltöne" (der Ton, singular, die
Töne, plural)

Here

http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm

is a chart for Suetterlin, a script very similar to the one
Schönberg used.

klaus

hi klaus,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:

> monz wrote:
> > eureka!
>
> wow!!!!!

yep, that's more like the way i felt! :)

> > at last, i've found my own personal holy grail!
> >
> >
> > the first page of Schoenberg's "Sketchbook III", from
> > April 1906, contains a sketch for the beautiful lyrical
> > theme of his _Kammersymphonie_ (1st Chamber Symphony, op. 9).
> > (he had started this composition in the previous sketchbook.)
> >
> >
> > but right under that, encircled, is a sketch of a bit
> > of a scale which descends from C to Bb then ascends back
> > up to C, in quarter-tones, using the mathematical
> > "greater-than" and "less-than" symbols:
> >
> > http://www.schoenberg.at/scans/Ms77/Ms77/Sk179.jpg
>
> "Bezeichnung für die Vierteltöne" (der Ton, singular, die
> Töne, plural)
>
> Here
>
> http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm
>
> is a chart for Suetterlin, a script very similar to the one
> Schönberg used.

i knew i could count on you!! thanks!

so then Schoenberg's phrase means something like
"notation for the quarter-tones", correct?

it's obvious that he wrote this quarter-tone bit
on this page at a different time from the pencil sketch
of the _Kammersymphonie_ music, almost certainly *later*
than the music, since it comes below it on the page.

do you (or does anyone else) have any ideas on the
dating of this? this is the first page of music in
the sketchbook, and the page right before is a blank
white page on which Schoenberg wrote "April 1906",
so that is clearly when he wrote the sketch of the
_Kammersymphonie_ music.

i suppose i'd have to examine the whole sketchbook
to try and match the appearance of the writing with
another sketch ... luckily, the Schoenberg Center
has generously made all of his sketchbooks available
on the internet as JPGs.

-monz

monz wrote:
> hi klaus,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:
>
>
>>monz wrote:
>>
>>>eureka!
>>
>>wow!!!!!
>
>
>
> yep, that's more like the way i felt! :)
>
>
>
>
>>>at last, i've found my own personal holy grail!
>>>
>>>
>>>the first page of Schoenberg's "Sketchbook III", from
>>>April 1906, contains a sketch for the beautiful lyrical
>>>theme of his _Kammersymphonie_ (1st Chamber Symphony, op. 9).
>>>(he had started this composition in the previous sketchbook.)
>>>
>>>
>>>but right under that, encircled, is a sketch of a bit
>>>of a scale which descends from C to Bb then ascends back
>>>up to C, in quarter-tones, using the mathematical
>>>"greater-than" and "less-than" symbols:
>>>
>>>http://www.schoenberg.at/scans/Ms77/Ms77/Sk179.jpg
>>
>>"Bezeichnung für die Vierteltöne" (der Ton, singular, die
>>Töne, plural)
>>
>>Here
>>
>>http://www.peter-doerling.de/Englisch/Sutterlin.htm
>>
>>is a chart for Suetterlin, a script very similar to the one
>>Schönberg used.
>
>
>
> i knew i could count on you!! thanks!
>
>
> so then Schoenberg's phrase means something like
> "notation for the quarter-tones", correct?

igg-zakly

>
> it's obvious that he wrote this quarter-tone bit
> on this page at a different time from the pencil sketch
> of the _Kammersymphonie_ music, almost certainly *later*
> than the music, since it comes below it on the page.
>
> do you (or does anyone else) have any ideas on the
> dating of this? this is the first page of music in
> the sketchbook, and the page right before is a blank
> white page on which Schoenberg wrote "April 1906",
> so that is clearly when he wrote the sketch of the
> _Kammersymphonie_ music.
>
> i suppose i'd have to examine the whole sketchbook
> to try and match the appearance of the writing with
> another sketch ... luckily, the Schoenberg Center
> has generously made all of his sketchbooks available
> on the internet as JPGs.

i've seen sketches from the 20ies (the wind quintet). i
think there he always noted the date when he had finished a
movement (and he had doodles interspersed, in this case
clearly concerning the very same piece: it was a graphical
representation of the permutation process he used). of
course it is possible that he put his quartertone stuff
there much later, when he did the orchestration.

k

on 1/24/04 6:36 PM, monz <monz@attglobal.net> wrote:

> see his letter to Busoni of 1909.08.24:
> http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/to-busoni-1909-8-24.htm
>
> if anyone can decipher and translate the German words
> which Schoenberg wrote to the left of that sketch,
> i'd really appreciate that.

What about the entire letter. Is someone working on translating that? If
no one else is doing it, I can probably arrange it, sooner or later, but I
can't be confident of the quality of the translation that would result. The
translation I could arrange would probably be done by someone for whom
English was the second language, and I have heard translations are best when
translated *to* the native language of the speaker.

-Kurt

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_52111.html#52111

> eureka!
>
> at last, i've found my own personal holy grail!
>
>
> the first page of Schoenberg's "Sketchbook III", from
> April 1906, contains a sketch for the beautiful lyrical
> theme of his _Kammersymphonie_ (1st Chamber Symphony, op. 9).
> (he had started this composition in the previous sketchbook.)
>
>
> but right under that, encircled, is a sketch of a bit
> of a scale which descends from C to Bb then ascends back
> up to C, in quarter-tones, using the mathematical
> "greater-than" and "less-than" symbols:
>
> http://www.schoenberg.at/scans/Ms77/Ms77/Sk179.jpg
>

***This is pretty amazing, Monz! I love the string of microtonal
accidentals. I had no idea he was so into this stuff (I mean beside
*writing* about it)...

JP

hi Kurt,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:

> on 1/24/04 6:36 PM, monz <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > see his letter to Busoni of 1909.08.24:
> > http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/schoenberg/to-busoni-1909-8-24.htm
> >
> > if anyone can decipher and translate the German words
> > which Schoenberg wrote to the left of that sketch,
> > i'd really appreciate that.
>
> What about the entire letter. Is someone working on
> translating that? If no one else is doing it, I can probably
> arrange it, sooner or later, but I can't be confident of the
> quality of the translation that would result. The translation
> I could arrange would probably be done by someone for whom
> English was the second language, and I have heard translations
> are best when translated *to* the native language of the speaker.

the entire letter has already been translated, by Antony Beaumont.
i can't remember now if it was published in his biography of
Busoni, or if there's a separate volume of Busoni correspondence.
but the whole thing has definitely been published already
in English translation.

... i must say that Beaumont is a man after my own heart,
as a look at the "References" on my Mahler and Schoenberg
webpages will show. he's published a biography of Busoni,
the translation of the Busoni-Schoenberg correspondence,
the translation of Alma Mahler's diary (which, unfortunately,
has been much abriged in comparison to the German publication),
and most recently, a great biography of Zemlinsky -- all
stuff that i'm very interested in!

-monz