Excerpt of Zireen music in superpelog[14]

Here's an incomplete midi featuring a Zireen melody that's been floating
around in my head for a while, waiting for the right tuning.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/zireen1-superpelog.mid
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/zireen1-14et.mid

One thing that I wanted to try out is assigning different subsets of the
14-note scale to different instruments. This seems to work out well, at
least for this scale. It allows an ensemble of fixed-pitch instruments to
handle a scale larger than any individual instrument can deal with. The
basic tuning is superpelog[14], with a 260.76 cent generator and a 1206.55
cent period (the Zireen love those stretched octaves!). The two hammered
dulcimers are tuned to overlapping superpelog[9] scales which together
cover the entire range of superpelog[14]. The two harps are each tuned to
one of the interleaved pelogic[7] subsets of superpelog[14]. I allowed the
complete 14-note scale for the reed organ part and the melodic instruments
(although the melody is largely based on a 5-note mode).

I wanted to do a 14-ET version for comparison, but I prefer the sound of
the superpelog version. Of course, it's already stretching the limits of
Scala's retuning capability (if only MIDI had more than 16 channels.....)

--
see my music page ---> ---<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--
hmiller (Herman Miller) "If all Printers were determin'd not to print any
@io.com email password: thing till they were sure it would offend no body,
\ "Subject: teamouse" / there would be very little printed." -Ben Franklin

Herman,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> Here's an incomplete midi featuring a Zireen melody that's been floating
> around in my head for a while, waiting for the right tuning.
>
> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/zireen1-superpelog.mid

Fun - definitely has a unique feel to it! Two questions:

1. the link to the superpelog page from your music page is broken - I wanted to find out a bit more about the tuning

2. are you ever going to make versions of these that aren't just .mid files? It would be interesting to hear - via an .mp3 or other digital file - just how you would like these pieces 'set' instrumentally, rather than the ad hoc general midi renditions that come out of a standard midi file.

I'll be interested in hearing this piece develop, and the tuning sounds intriguing to work with...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:

The two harps are each tuned to
> one of the interleaved pelogic[7] subsets of superpelog[14].

If you've got interleaved subsets, maybe you have the {49/48, 135/128}
septimal hemipelog? This would have the same top tuning you used, but
with a generator half the size of pelog. That could be named
superpelog if it is what you mean.

I allowed the
> complete 14-note scale for the reed organ part and the melodic
instruments
> (although the melody is largely based on a 5-note mode).

Wild & crazy stuff. Thanks, Herman!

> I wanted to do a 14-ET version for comparison, but I prefer the sound of
> the superpelog version. Of course, it's already stretching the limits of
> Scala's retuning capability (if only MIDI had more than 16
channels.....)

The limitations on midi are idiotic.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> 2. are you ever going to make versions of these that aren't just
.mid files? It would be interesting to hear - via an .mp3 or other
digital file - just how you would like these pieces 'set'
instrumentally, rather than the ad hoc general midi renditions that
come out of a standard midi file.

I render Herman's stuff myself sometimes to listen to them that way,
which sounds better than letting the midi player do it. If Herman
wants compressed version of those I could supply them.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>
> The two harps are each tuned to
> > one of the interleaved pelogic[7] subsets of superpelog[14].
>
>
> If you've got interleaved subsets, maybe you have the {49/48, 135/128}
> septimal hemipelog? This would have the same top tuning you used, but
> with a generator half the size of pelog. That could be named
> superpelog if it is what you mean.

Or did Herman mean two pelogic systems at a half-octave apart from one
another? (I haven't had a chance to investigate . . .)

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:05:31 -0000, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
wrote:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>
> The two harps are each tuned to
>> one of the interleaved pelogic[7] subsets of superpelog[14].
>
>
>If you've got interleaved subsets, maybe you have the {49/48, 135/128}
>septimal hemipelog? This would have the same top tuning you used, but
>with a generator half the size of pelog. That could be named
>superpelog if it is what you mean.

Yes, that agrees with the mapping I've been using:

[(1, 0), (2, -2), (1, 6), (3, -1), (3, 2)]

Is this one of your new 7-limit temperaments, or has it shown up before? I
wouldn't be surprised if someone else has noticed it, but it's new to me.

--
see my music page ---> ---<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--
hmiller (Herman Miller) "If all Printers were determin'd not to print any
@io.com email password: thing till they were sure it would offend no body,
\ "Subject: teamouse" / there would be very little printed." -Ben Franklin

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:05:54 -0000, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM> wrote:

>Herman,
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>> Here's an incomplete midi featuring a Zireen melody that's been floating
>> around in my head for a while, waiting for the right tuning.
>>
>> http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/zireen1-superpelog.mid
>
>Fun - definitely has a unique feel to it! Two questions:
>
>1. the link to the superpelog page from your music page is broken - I wanted to find out a bit more about the tuning

Oops, did I have a link to the superpelog page? I wasn't yet done with that
page, so I hadn't uploaded it yet, but it's there now.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/superpelog.html

>2. are you ever going to make versions of these that aren't just .mid files? It would be interesting to hear - via an .mp3 or other digital file - just how you would like these pieces 'set' instrumentally, rather than the ad hoc general midi renditions that come out of a standard midi file.

It would be nice, if I ever get the time.

--
see my music page ---> ---<http://www.io.com/~hmiller/music/index.html>--
hmiller (Herman Miller) "If all Printers were determin'd not to print any
@io.com email password: thing till they were sure it would offend no body,
\ "Subject: teamouse" / there would be very little printed." -Ben Franklin

Herman,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> Oops, did I have a link to the superpelog page? I wasn't yet
> done with that page, so I hadn't uploaded it yet, but it's there
> now.

Yep, I actually visited it tonight before you posted - I plan on playing around with this (using similar phrasing as you: "when I've got the time!")

> [Jon] digital file - just how you would like these pieces 'set'
> instrumentally, rather than the ad hoc general midi renditions
> that come out of a standard midi file.
>
> It would be nice, if I ever get the time.

Just to be really clear, by "ad hoc" I meant that they might not sound the same on each midi setup an end user has, and *not* to imply laziness or other on your part. I confess to often working on music in the opposite direction: the sounds and instrumental pallette come first, and other matters fill in as I go. The nice thing about music is that it is flexible enough to allow so many approaches!

Cheers,
Jon

on 1/20/04 1:05 AM, Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org> wrote:

>> I wanted to do a 14-ET version for comparison, but I prefer the sound of
>> the superpelog version. Of course, it's already stretching the limits of
>> Scala's retuning capability (if only MIDI had more than 16
> channels.....)
>
> The limitations on midi are idiotic.

Yes, this is one of the reasons I think it would be great if Scala could
directly utilize softsynths that don't depend on MIDI, where these exist.
Such things exists on MacOS X, from what I understand.

-Kurt

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:

> Yes, that agrees with the mapping I've been using:
>
> [(1, 0), (2, -2), (1, 6), (3, -1), (3, 2)]
>
> Is this one of your new 7-limit temperaments, or has it shown up
before?

It accidentally got left off of my latest list of 7-limit
temperaments, since it has *exactly* the same TOP error and
complexity, and hence badness, as a closely related temperament, with
commas {50/49, 135/128} instead of {49/48, 135/128}. So that one got
repeated. I'll call yours superpelog unless there is an objection. The
7-limit temperaments in the pelog family seem to be:

Number 19 Pelogic {21/20, 135/128}

[1, -3, -4, -7, -9, -1] [[1, 2, 1, 1], [0, -1, 3, 4]]
TOP tuning [1209.734056, 1886.526887, 2808.557731, 3341.498957]
TOP generators [1209.734056, 532.9412251]
bad: 39.824125 comp: 2.022675 err: 9.734056

Number 107 Superpelog {49/48, 135/128}

[2, -6, 1, -14, -4, 19] [[1, 2, 1, 3], [0, -2, 6, -1]]
TOP tuning [1206.548264, 1891.576247, 2771.109113, 3358.884653]
TOP generators [1206.548265, 260.7601415]
bad: 94.764743 comp: 3.804173 err: 6.548265

Number 108 Bipelog {50/49, 135/128}

[2, -6, -6, -14, -15, 3] [[2, 3, 5, 6], [0, 1, -3, -3]]
TOP tuning [1206.548264, 1891.576247, 2771.109113, 3374.383246]
TOP generators [603.2741324, 81.75384943]
bad: 94.764743 comp: 3.804173 err: 6.548265

People with better names should suggest them.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51993.html#52053

> Herman,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
> > Oops, did I have a link to the superpelog page? I wasn't yet
> > done with that page, so I hadn't uploaded it yet, but it's there
> > now.
>
> Yep, I actually visited it tonight before you posted - I plan on
playing around with this (using similar phrasing as you: "when I've
got the time!")
>
> > [Jon] digital file - just how you would like these pieces 'set'
> > instrumentally, rather than the ad hoc general midi renditions
> > that come out of a standard midi file.
> >
> > It would be nice, if I ever get the time.
>
> Just to be really clear, by "ad hoc" I meant that they might not
sound the same on each midi setup an end user has, and *not* to imply
laziness or other on your part. I confess to often working on music
in the opposite direction: the sounds and instrumental pallette come
first, and other matters fill in as I go. The nice thing about music
is that it is flexible enough to allow so many approaches!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***This reminds me a little bit of Miles Davis. Ever notice how on
some of his recordings he sets up the *sound* of the record and
palette/attitude and the real *music* doesn't come in until later,
usually when *Miles* comes in...

JP

Joe,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> ***This reminds me a little bit of Miles Davis. Ever notice how on
> some of his recordings he sets up the *sound* of the record and
> palette/attitude and the real *music* doesn't come in until later,
> usually when *Miles* comes in...

That goes a bit further than my attitude: when you say "the real music", I guess I can't agree, as I think that some music, and some very fine music, stems from the sound itself. But Miles had big ears, and I'm sure he heard things in all the corners of his musical domain.

Cheers,
Jon