Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning trumpet players on this list??

I would like to ask any present or former trumpet players on this
list a bit about microtonality. I'm about to write a piece for
trumpet and piano (probably, in *my* book, one of the *least*
inherent microtonal combinations possible...:)

How far can a trumpet player bend up and down with the lips in
various registers? I'm assuming at least a quartertone can be done
easily?? However, I remember it being mentioned that a well-known
jazz artist has a specially-made quartertone trumpet, so there must
have been a reason for this (was it Don Ellis??)

Anyway... can quartertones, be lipped successfully?

I realize that the brass instruments are based upon the harmonic
series, and I've written for horn in just intonation where the horn
player plays the "natural" pitches (not always the ones generally
used) go get at the harmonic series for each position. Does the
trumpet work similarly, or don't they like to play that way?? (I
happened to have a *very* adventurous horn player who was "into" just
intonation before *I* was...)

Any insights or practical observations would be appreciated. I
really don't want to write *yet another* standard 12-tET piece for
this combo, if possible...

Thanks!

Joseph Pehrson

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>How far can a trumpet player bend up and down with the lips in
>various registers?

Big-band style "shakes" are typically a 4th or more. In the
lower registers you get less range. But the real question is
how much can they bend *accurately*.

>I'm assuming at least a quartertone can be done easily??

The answer varies by player, register, and instrument. Alternate
fingerings are also an option.

>However, I remember it being mentioned that a well-known jazz
>artist has a specially-made quartertone trumpet, so there must
>have been a reason for this (was it Don Ellis??)

It was, and the reason I've heard was that it "freed up the
horn", take from it what you will.

Here are two links posted around the way recently...

http://www.marcoblaauw.com/

http://www.duocontour.com/

>Anyway... can quartertones, be lipped successfully?

Yes, but it isn't standard practice, obviously, and it is
probably harder than on the cello or trombone.

>I realize that the brass instruments are based upon the harmonic
>series, and I've written for horn in just intonation where the
>horn player plays the "natural" pitches (not always the ones
>generally used) go get at the harmonic series for each position.
>Does the trumpet work similarly, or don't they like to play that
>way??

Yes, it works the same way. There are 8 configurations from 3
valves and the trumpet can play more than 8 notes!

There was some discussion here some years back mainly between
Daniel Wolf and myself about how close to just the "overblown"
harmonics of a horn are. Maybe Paul has some insight on that.

>Any insights or practical observations would be appreciated. I
>really don't want to write *yet another* standard 12-tET piece for
>this combo, if possible...

Killer! If you want 5-limit JI and you put nice power chords on
the piano, you may be surprised how easily you get what you want!
The 7-limit is not as natural, but if you use special accidentals
and can rehearse your player until he hears them 'lock', you
should do well.

-Carl

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51875

> >How far can a trumpet player bend up and down with the lips in
> >various registers?
>
> Big-band style "shakes" are typically a 4th or more. In the
> lower registers you get less range. But the real question is
> how much can they bend *accurately*.
>

***Hi Carl...

Right... I guess I remembered the upper register being about a 4th...

> >I'm assuming at least a quartertone can be done easily??
>
> The answer varies by player, register, and instrument. Alternate
> fingerings are also an option.
>
> >However, I remember it being mentioned that a well-known jazz
> >artist has a specially-made quartertone trumpet, so there must
> >have been a reason for this (was it Don Ellis??)
>
> It was, and the reason I've heard was that it "freed up the
> horn", take from it what you will.
>
> Here are two links posted around the way recently...
>
> http://www.marcoblaauw.com/
>
> http://www.duocontour.com/
>

***These are interesting sites, Carl (naturally, they're both in
Europe :)

Of course, I would rather not write a piece for a *specialized*
instrument... since I'm hoping for more widespread performances...
(than just once... :)

> >Anyway... can quartertones, be lipped successfully?
>
> Yes, but it isn't standard practice, obviously, and it is
> probably harder than on the cello or trombone.
>

***I've heard it is *extremely* difficult to lip quartertones on
the cello, and it's not medically advisable...

> >I realize that the brass instruments are based upon the harmonic
> >series, and I've written for horn in just intonation where the
> >horn player plays the "natural" pitches (not always the ones
> >generally used) go get at the harmonic series for each position.
> >Does the trumpet work similarly, or don't they like to play that
> >way??
>
> Yes, it works the same way. There are 8 configurations from 3
> valves and the trumpet can play more than 8 notes!
>
> There was some discussion here some years back mainly between
> Daniel Wolf and myself about how close to just the "overblown"
> harmonics of a horn are. Maybe Paul has some insight on that.
>

***Well, of even more concern to me, personally, is how close to 12-
tET these notes are since that's, of course, our "common practice..."

I know a bit more about the horn, since I've worked microtonally with
it. Each position, of course, yields a string of harmonics but horn
players don't *use* all of them, generally. They only use the ones
*closest* to 12-equal. I have a chart of all of these made for me by
horn player Francis Orval, who was *very* interested in just
intonation on the horn and pieces involving such.

[John Rockwell in a "review" in the N.Y. Times included my piece in
comments that Orval would be better off playing "decent" pieces, than
works in JI... :) ]

I suppose I could use such a chart for the trumpet was well... of
which harmonics trumpet players *usually* play and which ones
are "off" or "microtonal..."

> >Any insights or practical observations would be appreciated. I
> >really don't want to write *yet another* standard 12-tET piece for
> >this combo, if possible...
>
> Killer! If you want 5-limit JI and you put nice power chords on
> the piano, you may be surprised how easily you get what you want!
> The 7-limit is not as natural, but if you use special accidentals
> and can rehearse your player until he hears them 'lock', you
> should do well.
>
***Well, of course the problem is also the *piano* which doesn't help
too much with the justness... although it's true the fifths are
almost just. But it's bound to play a *third* every now and then :)

Maybe I'll just blunder along and ask for some lipping of
quartertones and see what happens. Blundering can be adverturous...

J. Pehrson

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> I would like to ask any present or former trumpet players on this > list a bit about microtonality. I'm about to write a piece for > trumpet and piano (probably, in *my* book, one of the *least* > inherent microtonal combinations possible...:)

Trombone, which as far as lipping is concerned isn't much different from trumpets, horns and maybe cornettos. So if you want to listen...

> > How far can a trumpet player bend up and down with the lips in > various registers? Up: not very much and not very comfortably. The "center" of a tone is really at the upper end of a harmonic "mode's " vibration range, and pushing upwards soon breaks the tone, going to the next partial.
Downwards: A lot more is possible here, up to (but maybe not reliably including) the harmonic division of the interval in the harmonic series. Not having an F-valve, I know about and have used lipping down a fourth from the third partial. It should be possible (it at least roughly is possible) to lip down 7/8 from #4, 9/10 from #5, 11/12 from #6, ... and still 23/24 from #12.
If this is regularly true and you don't object to a rather static trumpet part (of course portamento is possible - and i think very effective), lipping down from a tone "as much as possible" might be a good way to get an exact just interval an octave below its place in the harmonic series.
You are probably aware that since Karlheinz taught Markus pedal notes on the trumpet are suddenly possible; you can bend these everywhere.

For practical reasons it is probably good to stick to the true harmonic notes in the upper range (your trumpet player will tell you where this begins; I expect it to be somewhat lower than what is normally (without bending) considered "high range"). In the lower range, I would use two embouchures, the normal one and the maximally lowered one, rather than "just a little bit" from any old note. Don't write rapid passages that need a change of embouchures, and if so, make these changes part of the music (portamentos!) (I keep repeating this because I expect interesting music from it).

Something about the instruments: I understand that the valves are set to 12et, which is fine for the combination with regular piano. But vendors in shops sometimes say things likeSomething about the instruments: I understand that the valves are set to 12et, which is fine for the combination with regular piano. But vendors in shops sometimes say things like "The fifth harmonic is always a little low; it is possible to make them almost correct, but not exactly". They refer to the way the instrument is built and its coupling with a mouthpiece, and of course to 12et. There is some truth to that (think of a didgeridoo, where the odd harmonic series 1-3-5 is just as bent as the instrument itself), but I can't imagine that stretching the third for 0 valves doesn't have bad repercussions on the intervals with other fingerings. What I want to say is: before you start, get a real trumpet player and some real trumpets and measure each of the harmonic series, or a least the 0 and 1-3 fingerings.

I'm assuming at least a quartertone can be done
> easily?? However, I remember it being mentioned that a well-known > jazz artist has a specially-made quartertone trumpet, so there must > have been a reason for this (was it Don Ellis??)

The timbre changes if you change the embouchure away from the "center", and it hurts fluency if you have to constantly readjust. I don't know how Ellis (yes, it was him) used it, but I would expect it was mainly for blue notes and probably a couple of melismas (I adore his combo stuff from the early sixties with people like Jaki Byard, but don't have anything of the seventies when he had that horn). And I like the timbre changes that go with bending a note.

klaus

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51885

> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> > I would like to ask any present or former trumpet players on this
> > list a bit about microtonality. I'm about to write a piece for
> > trumpet and piano (probably, in *my* book, one of the *least*
> > inherent microtonal combinations possible...:)
>
> Trombone, which as far as lipping is concerned isn't much
> different from trumpets, horns and maybe cornettos. So if
> you want to listen...
>

***Hello Klaus,

Well, trombone isn't such a problem microtonally because of the
*slide...* of course, so it's a different microtonal case, I think.

> >
> > How far can a trumpet player bend up and down with the lips in
> > various registers?
>
> Up: not very much and not very comfortably. The "center" of
> a tone is really at the upper end of a harmonic "mode's "
> vibration range, and pushing upwards soon breaks the tone,
> going to the next partial.
> Downwards: A lot more is possible here,

***OK, well I'll try to keep my quartertone bends going *downward*
then...

up to (but maybe not
> reliably including) the harmonic division of the interval in
> the harmonic series. Not having an F-valve, I know about and
> have used lipping down a fourth from the third partial. It
> should be possible (it at least roughly is possible) to lip
> down 7/8 from #4, 9/10 from #5, 11/12 from #6, ... and still
> 23/24 from #12.

***Well, what are the approximate value in cents of these intervals?
(I guess I could calculate them, but I'm a tad lazy at the moment...
9/8 is a whole tone, that much I know. I would suppose the others
are in the vicinity of a quartertone??)

> If this is regularly true and you don't object to a rather
> static trumpet part (of course portamento is possible - and
> i think very effective), lipping down from a tone "as much
> as possible" might be a good way to get an exact just
> interval an octave below its place in the harmonic series.
> You are probably aware that since Karlheinz taught Markus
> pedal notes on the trumpet are suddenly possible; you can
> bend these everywhere.
>

***Well, I wasn't really aware of that, but it's interesting.
Frankly, for this particular piece, I'm only interested in using
*quartertones* rather than trying to achieve just.

> For practical reasons it is probably good to stick to the
> true harmonic notes in the upper range (your trumpet player
> will tell you where this begins; I expect it to be somewhat
> lower than what is normally (without bending) considered
> "high range"). In the lower range, I would use two
> embouchures, the normal one and the maximally lowered one,
> rather than "just a little bit" from any old note. Don't
> write rapid passages that need a change of embouchures, and
> if so, make these changes part of the music (portamentos!)
> (I keep repeating this because I expect interesting music
> from it).
>

***Well, I like to use portamentos, but I'm assuming I can play notes
with individual attacks and get a quartertone change... at least
*downward...* (??) I hope.

> Something about the instruments: I understand that the
> valves are set to 12et, which is fine for the combination
> with regular piano. But vendors in shops sometimes say
> things likeSomething about the instruments: I understand
> that the valves are set to 12et, which is fine for the
> combination with regular piano. But vendors in shops
> sometimes say things like "The fifth harmonic is always a
> little low; it is possible to make them almost correct, but
> not exactly". They refer to the way the instrument is built
> and its coupling with a mouthpiece, and of course to 12et.
> There is some truth to that (think of a didgeridoo, where
> the odd harmonic series 1-3-5 is just as bent as the
> instrument itself), but I can't imagine that stretching the
> third for 0 valves doesn't have bad repercussions on the
> intervals with other fingerings. What I want to say is:
> before you start, get a real trumpet player and some real
> trumpets and measure each of the harmonic series, or a least
> the 0 and 1-3 fingerings.
>

***That's generally a good idea, but in this particular case, the
player I'm writing for is in Italy... so it's more impractical...

> I'm assuming at least a quartertone can be done
> > easily?? However, I remember it being mentioned that a well-
known
> > jazz artist has a specially-made quartertone trumpet, so there
must
> > have been a reason for this (was it Don Ellis??)
>
> The timbre changes if you change the embouchure away from
> the "center", and it hurts fluency if you have to constantly
> readjust. I don't know how Ellis (yes, it was him) used it,
> but I would expect it was mainly for blue notes and probably
> a couple of melismas (I adore his combo stuff from the early
> sixties with people like Jaki Byard, but don't have anything
> of the seventies when he had that horn). And I like the
> timbre changes that go with bending a note.
>

***I would be careful to leave *time* for the player (i.e. no fast
passages). I don't think I would be too concerned about the change
of timbre... It might be interesting... :)

Joseph P.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>***I've heard it is *extremely* difficult to lip quartertones on
>the cello, and it's not medically advisable...

>> >I realize that the brass instruments are based upon the harmonic
>> >series, and I've written for horn in just intonation where the
>> >horn player plays the "natural" pitches (not always the ones
>> >generally used) go get at the harmonic series for each position.
>> >Does the trumpet work similarly, or don't they like to play that
>> >way??
>>
>> Yes, it works the same way. There are 8 configurations from 3
>> valves and the trumpet can play more than 8 notes!
>>
>> There was some discussion here some years back mainly between
>> Daniel Wolf and myself about how close to just the "overblown"
>> harmonics of a horn are. Maybe Paul has some insight on that.
>
>***Well, of even more concern to me, personally, is how close to 12-
>tET these notes are since that's, of course, our "common practice..."

Here I was referring to the 'inharmonicity' of a single series --
it will be far from 12 and close to JI, but how close?.

On a modern trumpet, the valves and lips are the only thing that make
it in 12, if it is at all. In Bach's day, trumpets didn't have valves.
One played an overtone series and had to lip it to match the orchestra.

>> >Any insights or practical observations would be appreciated. I
>> >really don't want to write *yet another* standard 12-tET piece for
>> >this combo, if possible...
>>
>> Killer! If you want 5-limit JI and you put nice power chords on
>> the piano, you may be surprised how easily you get what you want!
>> The 7-limit is not as natural, but if you use special accidentals
>> and can rehearse your player until he hears them 'lock', you
>> should do well.
>>
>***Well, of course the problem is also the *piano* which doesn't help
>too much with the justness... although it's true the fifths are
>almost just. But it's bound to play a *third* every now and then :)

I do not find it hard to sing a just 7/2 (or is it 7:5?) above an open
10th on a piano. Try it!

-Carl

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:

>>Trombone, which as far as lipping is concerned isn't much >>different from trumpets, horns and maybe cornettos. So if >>you want to listen...
>>
> > > ***Hello Klaus,
> > Well, trombone isn't such a problem microtonally because of the > *slide...* of course, so it's a different microtonal case, I think.

Well, but I said "lipping", not sliding. Sliding is invariably a tritone on trombones and maybe a quartertone* on trumpets (tuning slide, operated with the left pinkie).

> It >>should be possible (it at least roughly is possible) to lip >>down 7/8 from #4, 9/10 from #5, 11/12 from #6, ... and still >>23/24 from #12.
> > > ***Well, what are the approximate value in cents of these intervals? 74 cents for the 12th harmonic, g on the fourth ledger line, an f3 on your ordinary Bb trumpet. I doubt your trumpet player is keen on bending notes up there. You would certainly have to hit the unflattened note first. Unless...

>>You are probably aware that since Karlheinz taught Markus >>pedal notes on the trumpet are suddenly possible; you can >>bend these everywhere.

The other, "traditional" way to bend a note every which way is halve valving (Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White, Perez Prado). It works over the complete range. There is no pitch focus any more, you're floating in the continuum with your ears the only guides. Your player needs perfect pitch, or you have to provide context - don't start with the trumpet half valving a definite pitch.

> > ***Well, I wasn't really aware of that, but it's interesting. > Frankly, for this particular piece, I'm only interested in using > *quartertones* rather than trying to achieve just.

Then your trumpet player has to learn to hear 50 cents. JI may be a tad easier, as it still relies somewhat on the physics of the instrument. But it may also be matter of taste, and learning a quartertone interval is felt to be less threatening than the different JI intervals. It certainly frees you from thinking about the instrument too much.

>>For practical reasons it is probably good to stick to the >>true harmonic notes in the upper range (your trumpet player >>will tell you where this begins; I expect it to be somewhat >>lower than what is normally (without bending) considered >>"high range"). In the lower range, I would use two >>embouchures, the normal one and the maximally lowered one, >>rather than "just a little bit" from any old note. Don't >>write rapid passages that need a change of embouchures, and >>if so, make these changes part of the music (portamentos!) >>(I keep repeating this because I expect interesting music >>from it).
>>
> > > ***Well, I like to use portamentos, but I'm assuming I can play notes > with individual attacks and get a quartertone change... at least > *downward...* (??) I hope.

Should be feasible.

>> What I want to say is: >>before you start, get a real trumpet player and some real >>trumpets and measure each of the harmonic series, or a least >>the 0 and 1-3 fingerings.
>>
> > > ***That's generally a good idea, but in this particular case, the > player I'm writing for is in Italy... so it's more impractical...

If it's not JI, it doesn't matter.

> > ***I would be careful to leave *time* for the player (i.e. no fast > passages). I don't think I would be too concerned about the change > of timbre... It might be interesting... :)

If you can rely on the trumpet player's ear, half valve lets you write anything.* It also changes the timbre, more so than lipping by a quartertone would, and it is less likely to raise doubts about the trumpet player's technique (don't make the lipped down notes loud).

Actually, you should rephrase all my timeless tips as questions and give them to your musician. On trombones with narrow bores and with a little practice, for instance, it is possible to lip down a fourth from the second partial and still sound good - but I doubt that a trumpet bore is per se narrow enough.

klaus

* probably not usable for your purposes, since part of its little range has to be used to compensate for valve combinations.

** as long as it's legatissimo. At least I never heard it with any tonguing. Oh yes: with rotary valves, half valve is not possible; this is actually their advantage over pistons.

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51896

> > ***Hello Klaus,
> >
> > Well, trombone isn't such a problem microtonally because of the
> > *slide...* of course, so it's a different microtonal case, I
think.
>
>
> Well, but I said "lipping", not sliding. Sliding is
> invariably a tritone on trombones and maybe a quartertone*
> on trumpets (tuning slide, operated with the left pinkie).
>

###Hello Klaus!

Well, this is what Johnny Reinhard was talking to me about this
morning. He said, because of this "pinkie" slide, it is possible for
the trumpet to play quartertones throughout the entire range of the
instrument... (??) In your footnote, it seems to indicate that this
is problematic...

> > It
> >>should be possible (it at least roughly is possible) to lip
> >>down 7/8 from #4, 9/10 from #5, 11/12 from #6, ... and still
> >>23/24 from #12.
> >
> >
> > ***Well, what are the approximate value in cents of these
intervals?
>
> 74 cents for the 12th harmonic, g on the fourth ledger line,
> an f3 on your ordinary Bb trumpet. I doubt your trumpet
> player is keen on bending notes up there. You would
> certainly have to hit the unflattened note first. Unless...
>
> >>You are probably aware that since Karlheinz taught Markus
> >>pedal notes on the trumpet are suddenly possible; you can
> >>bend these everywhere.
>
> The other, "traditional" way to bend a note every which way
> is halve valving (Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White, Perez
> Prado). It works over the complete range. There is no pitch
> focus any more, you're floating in the continuum with your
> ears the only guides. Your player needs perfect pitch, or
> you have to provide context - don't start with the trumpet
> half valving a definite pitch.
>

###Hmm... well this is very interesting, Klaus! It could certainly
be used for "special microtonal effects" if nothing more...

>
> >
> > ***Well, I wasn't really aware of that, but it's interesting.
> > Frankly, for this particular piece, I'm only interested in using
> > *quartertones* rather than trying to achieve just.
>
> Then your trumpet player has to learn to hear 50 cents. JI
> may be a tad easier, as it still relies somewhat on the
> physics of the instrument. But it may also be matter of
> taste, and learning a quartertone interval is felt to be
> less threatening than the different JI intervals. It
> certainly frees you from thinking about the instrument too much.
>

###It seems most instrumentalists, particularly younger ones, have
had experience with quartertones, since almost every living composer
has used at least one of them in a piece... :)

>
> >>For practical reasons it is probably good to stick to the
> >>true harmonic notes in the upper range (your trumpet player
> >>will tell you where this begins; I expect it to be somewhat
> >>lower than what is normally (without bending) considered
> >>"high range"). In the lower range, I would use two
> >>embouchures, the normal one and the maximally lowered one,
> >>rather than "just a little bit" from any old note. Don't
> >>write rapid passages that need a change of embouchures, and
> >>if so, make these changes part of the music (portamentos!)
> >>(I keep repeating this because I expect interesting music
> >>from it).
> >>
> >
> >
> > ***Well, I like to use portamentos, but I'm assuming I can play
notes
> > with individual attacks and get a quartertone change... at least
> > *downward...* (??) I hope.
>
> Should be feasible.
>
> >> What I want to say is:
> >>before you start, get a real trumpet player and some real
> >>trumpets and measure each of the harmonic series, or a least
> >>the 0 and 1-3 fingerings.
> >>
> >
> >
> > ***That's generally a good idea, but in this particular case, the
> > player I'm writing for is in Italy... so it's more impractical...
>
> If it's not JI, it doesn't matter.
>

###I believe I would like to save my JI efforts, which will still
continue in the exploration of the Blackjack scale, to another
project... Actually this new piece is of a rather "minimalistic"
vein... it's just started. I think I'm going to be doing a lot with
metrics and *proportions* in this piece... that end more than
*tuning* for a change...

>
> >
> > ***I would be careful to leave *time* for the player (i.e. no
fast
> > passages). I don't think I would be too concerned about the
change
> > of timbre... It might be interesting... :)
>
> If you can rely on the trumpet player's ear, half valve lets
> you write anything.* It also changes the timbre, more so
> than lipping by a quartertone would, and it is less likely
> to raise doubts about the trumpet player's technique (don't
> make the lipped down notes loud).
>
> Actually, you should rephrase all my timeless tips as
> questions and give them to your musician. On trombones with
> narrow bores and with a little practice, for instance, it is
> possible to lip down a fourth from the second partial and
> still sound good - but I doubt that a trumpet bore is per se
> narrow enough.
>

***It's probably best to just see if the player can play
quartertones... :) Probably it's best just to indicate them in the
score and let the *player* figure out how to do it... with half-
valves, tonguing or the little "pinkie" slide... at least that would
be *my* guess.

Thanks!

Joseph

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51906

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
>
> > > There was some discussion here some years back mainly between
> > > Daniel Wolf and myself about how close to just the "overblown"
> > > harmonics of a horn are. Maybe Paul has some insight on that.
> > >
> >
> > ***Well, of even more concern to me, personally, is how close to
12-
> > tET these notes are since that's, of course, our "common
> >practice..."
>
> Assuming a good harmonic-series-like set of resonances, all the
notes
> produced by overblowing the "5th harmonic" will be roughly a
twelfth-
> tone flat of 12-equal. Overblowing the "7th harmonic" is usually
> avoided but hopefully your trumpet player will not object, and the
> result will be about a sixth-tone flat of 12-equal. You get the
idea.

***Oh sure... that makes sense... But, if I recall correctly from
the horn example, the horn player sometimes used "good" partials from
*several* different positions to approximate 12-tET. Would *that*
make any sense??

J. Pehrson

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

Joseph Pehrson wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:
> > > /tuning/topicId_51871.html#51896
> > >>>***Hello Klaus,
>>>
>>>Well, trombone isn't such a problem microtonally because of the >>>*slide...* of course, so it's a different microtonal case, I > > think.
> >>
>>Well, but I said "lipping", not sliding. Sliding is >>invariably a tritone on trombones and maybe a quartertone* >>on trumpets (tuning slide, operated with the left pinkie).
>>
> > > ###Hello Klaus!
> > Well, this is what Johnny Reinhard was talking to me about this > morning. He said, because of this "pinkie" slide, it is possible for > the trumpet to play quartertones throughout the entire range of the > instrument... (??) In your footnote, it seems to indicate that this > is problematic...

I just never tried it. The pinkie valve, surprising to me, is not actually uncomfortable, and you can play everything with "correct" tone quality. It's just that the tubing for the valve is primarily made for singly depressed valves, adding a correct percentage of tubing to the zero fingering, and for valve combinations this isn't enough any more. So for 1-3 and 123 you extend your pinkie ("a little" for 1-3 and "all the way" for 123, I've been told, so trumpet tuning depends on pinkie size).

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 1/18/04 4:51:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, KSchmir@z.zgs.de
writes:

> So
> for 1-3 and 123 you extend your pinkie ("a little" for 1-3
> and "all the way" for 123, I've been told, so trumpet tuning
> depends on pinkie size).
>

Hi Klaus,

Not pinkie size, for that might imply that people with tiny or fat pinkies
need not apply. It is the distance the pinkie travels to effect the desired
tuning distinction. This technique for tuning quartertones was introduced to me
by Louis Babin of Laval, Quebec. Playing in AFMM concerts, Louis eventually
could hear (and compose) in quartertones, finally having a quartertone trumpet
made (of 4 pistons). Essentially, he made it successively easier for himself,
though he does not play as often as he once did, preferring to compose.

Regarding an open trumpet sound when it gains its 4th piston, Big Bandleader
Don Ellis definitely believed this. He chose to use his quartertone trumpet
for all music to be played, even if there no specific quartertones in the
score.

best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51934

> In a message dated 1/18/04 4:51:51 AM Eastern Standard Time,
KSchmir@z...
> writes:
>
>
> > So
> > for 1-3 and 123 you extend your pinkie ("a little" for 1-3
> > and "all the way" for 123, I've been told, so trumpet tuning
> > depends on pinkie size).
> >
>
> Hi Klaus,
>
> Not pinkie size, for that might imply that people with tiny or fat
pinkies
> need not apply. It is the distance the pinkie travels to effect
the desired
> tuning distinction. This technique for tuning quartertones was
introduced to me
> by Louis Babin of Laval, Quebec. Playing in AFMM concerts, Louis
eventually
> could hear (and compose) in quartertones, finally having a
quartertone trumpet
> made (of 4 pistons). Essentially, he made it successively easier
for himself,
> though he does not play as often as he once did, preferring to
compose.
>
> Regarding an open trumpet sound when it gains its 4th piston, Big
Bandleader
> Don Ellis definitely believed this. He chose to use his
quartertone trumpet
> for all music to be played, even if there no specific quartertones
in the
> score.
>
> best, Johnny Reinhard

***Hey Johnny!

But doesn't this imply, to a degree, that a trumpet player really
needs a special instrument in order to play quartertones throughout
the range...??

Thanks!

Joseph

P.S. In case people don't know... Johnny Reinhard is getting married
next week... :)

🔗Kami ROUSSEAU <kamikulture@yahoo.ca>

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Overblowing the "7th harmonic" is usually
> avoided but hopefully your trumpet player will not object, and the
> result will be about a sixth-tone flat of 12-equal. You get the idea.

This trick is reliable for lowering Bb, A, Ab and G by a 1/6-tone.

Between middle C (4th harmonic) and middle G (6th harmonic), you can also get
all the quartertone notes using 1st and 3rd finger slides. Below middle C, many
quarter-tone notes will be missing.

+ means quartertone up
7 means 1/6 tone down

C(0)
C+(12, pull 1st)
C#(12)
C#+(1, pull 1st)
D(1)
D+(23, pull 3rd, might need embouchure correction)
D#(2)
D#+(12, pull 1st)
E(0)
E+(1, pull 1st)
7F(13, might need to pull 3rd)
F(1)
F+(23, pull third)
7Gb(23, might need to pull 3rd)
F#(2)
F#+(13, pull 1st and/or 3rd)
7G(12)
G(0)
7Ab(1)
Ab(13)
7A(2)
A(12)
7Bb(0)
Bb(1)
B(2)
C(0)

=====
7Kami

______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:
> > /tuning/topicId_51871.html#51929
> > >>I just never tried it. The pinkie valve, surprising to me, >>is not actually uncomfortable, and you can play everything >>with "correct" tone quality. It's just that the tubing for >>the valve is primarily made for singly depressed valves, >>adding a correct percentage of tubing to the zero fingering, >>and for valve combinations this isn't enough any more. So >>for 1-3 and 123 you extend your pinkie ("a little" for 1-3 >>and "all the way" for 123, I've been told, so trumpet tuning >>depends on pinkie size).
> > > ***Hi Klaus...
> > I thought you were a trumpet player... (??) No, trombone, and therefore responding primarily to the lipping aspect, cause trombones have lips, too.

In any case, Johnny
> Reinhard seems to feel that the trumpeter, futzing around with this > pinkie slide and lipping can do quartertones throughout the entire > range. I guess I'll have to as a trumpeter... (not a bad idea... :)
> pardon?

klaus

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kami ROUSSEAU <kamikulture@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51942

> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > Overblowing the "7th harmonic" is usually
> > avoided but hopefully your trumpet player will not object, and
the
> > result will be about a sixth-tone flat of 12-equal. You get the
idea.
>
> This trick is reliable for lowering Bb, A, Ab and G by a 1/6-tone.
>
> Between middle C (4th harmonic) and middle G (6th harmonic), you
can also get
> all the quartertone notes using 1st and 3rd finger slides. Below
middle C, many
> quarter-tone notes will be missing.
>
> + means quartertone up
> 7 means 1/6 tone down
>
> C(0)
> C+(12, pull 1st)
> C#(12)
> C#+(1, pull 1st)
> D(1)
> D+(23, pull 3rd, might need embouchure correction)
> D#(2)
> D#+(12, pull 1st)
> E(0)
> E+(1, pull 1st)
> 7F(13, might need to pull 3rd)
> F(1)
> F+(23, pull third)
> 7Gb(23, might need to pull 3rd)
> F#(2)
> F#+(13, pull 1st and/or 3rd)
> 7G(12)
> G(0)
> 7Ab(1)
> Ab(13)
> 7A(2)
> A(12)
> 7Bb(0)
> Bb(1)
> B(2)
> C(0)
>
> =====
> 7Kami
>
***This is very interesting, Kami... but how about for quartertones
going *downward??* Not possible??

Thanks!

Joseph

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51944

> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z...>
wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_51871.html#51929
> >
> >
> >>I just never tried it. The pinkie valve, surprising to me,
> >>is not actually uncomfortable, and you can play everything
> >>with "correct" tone quality. It's just that the tubing for
> >>the valve is primarily made for singly depressed valves,
> >>adding a correct percentage of tubing to the zero fingering,
> >>and for valve combinations this isn't enough any more. So
> >>for 1-3 and 123 you extend your pinkie ("a little" for 1-3
> >>and "all the way" for 123, I've been told, so trumpet tuning
> >>depends on pinkie size).
> >
> >
> > ***Hi Klaus...
> >
> > I thought you were a trumpet player... (??)
>
> No, trombone, and therefore responding primarily to the
> lipping aspect, cause trombones have lips, too.
>
> In any case, Johnny
> > Reinhard seems to feel that the trumpeter, futzing around with
this
> > pinkie slide and lipping can do quartertones throughout the
entire
> > range. I guess I'll have to as a trumpeter... (not a bad
idea... :)
> >
>
> pardon?
>
> klaus

***He, he... no trumpeter I, obviously :

That was to read, "I'll have to asK a trumpeter..." :)

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kami ROUSSEAU <kamikulture@y...> wrote:

> This trick is reliable for lowering Bb, A, Ab and G by a 1/6-tone.
>
> Between middle C (4th harmonic) and middle G (6th harmonic), you
can also get
> all the quartertone notes using 1st and 3rd finger slides. Below
middle C, many
> quarter-tone notes will be missing.
>
> + means quartertone up
> 7 means 1/6 tone down
>
> C(0)
> C+(12, pull 1st)
> C#(12)
> C#+(1, pull 1st)
> D(1)
> D+(23, pull 3rd, might need embouchure correction)

etc.

Kami,

I think middle c (c') on modern trumpet is the second "harmonic", not
fourth; your fingerings will work for the next higher octave not for
the octave above middle c (c'). (I noticed this when I saw "D(1)",
which should be fifth "harmonic" of B-flat. In the middle c octave,
you must finger d' as 13, which is third "harmonic" of G).

Too bad that the old low f trumpet is not current. It could be very
good for microtones.

Joseph,

If you can get the score and recording of Robert Erickson's KRYL for
solo trumpet, played by Edwin Harkins, you may reward your ears with
a very effective use of microtones.

Gabor

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <paul@s...>
wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_51871.html#51906
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >
> > > > There was some discussion here some years back mainly between
> > > > Daniel Wolf and myself about how close to just the "overblown"
> > > > harmonics of a horn are. Maybe Paul has some insight on that.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ***Well, of even more concern to me, personally, is how close
to
> 12-
> > > tET these notes are since that's, of course, our "common
> > >practice..."
> >
> > Assuming a good harmonic-series-like set of resonances, all the
> notes
> > produced by overblowing the "5th harmonic" will be roughly a
> twelfth-
> > tone flat of 12-equal. Overblowing the "7th harmonic" is usually
> > avoided but hopefully your trumpet player will not object, and
the
> > result will be about a sixth-tone flat of 12-equal. You get the
> idea.
>
>
> ***Oh sure... that makes sense... But, if I recall correctly from
> the horn example, the horn player sometimes used "good" partials
from
> *several* different positions to approximate 12-tET. Would *that*
> make any sense??

Do you mean several different fingerings? If so, yes, and I took that
into account when I wrote the above. So in practical terms, you could
have a trumpet player alternate between a 12-equal note and the note
a twelfth-tone below, the note a sixth-tone below, and in some cases,
both. You hear these kinds of inflections very often in Miles Davis's
playing, for instance . . .

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <paul@stretch-music.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kami ROUSSEAU <kamikulture@y...>
wrote:
>
>
> /tuning/topicId_51871.html#51942
>
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > > Overblowing the "7th harmonic" is usually
> > > avoided but hopefully your trumpet player will not object, and
> the
> > > result will be about a sixth-tone flat of 12-equal. You get the
> idea.
> >
> > This trick is reliable for lowering Bb, A, Ab and G by a 1/6-tone.
> >
> > Between middle C (4th harmonic) and middle G (6th harmonic), you
> can also get
> > all the quartertone notes using 1st and 3rd finger slides. Below
> middle C, many
> > quarter-tone notes will be missing.
> >
> > + means quartertone up
> > 7 means 1/6 tone down
> >
> > C(0)
> > C+(12, pull 1st)
> > C#(12)
> > C#+(1, pull 1st)
> > D(1)
> > D+(23, pull 3rd, might need embouchure correction)
> > D#(2)
> > D#+(12, pull 1st)
> > E(0)
> > E+(1, pull 1st)
> > 7F(13, might need to pull 3rd)
> > F(1)
> > F+(23, pull third)
> > 7Gb(23, might need to pull 3rd)
> > F#(2)
> > F#+(13, pull 1st and/or 3rd)
> > 7G(12)
> > G(0)
> > 7Ab(1)
> > Ab(13)
> > 7A(2)
> > A(12)
> > 7Bb(0)
> > Bb(1)
> > B(2)
> > C(0)
> >
> > =====
> > 7Kami
> >
> ***This is very interesting, Kami... but how about for quartertones
> going *downward??* Not possible??
>
> Thanks!
>
> Joseph

It looks like no one replied to this . . . but the above already
provides for quartertones going downward (from Db, D, Eb, E, F, Gb,
and G) as much as for quartertones going upward . . . quartertones
are just the "halfway points" between semitones, after all . . .

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> I would like to ask any present or former trumpet players on this
> list a bit about microtonality. I'm about to write a piece for
> trumpet and piano (probably, in *my* book, one of the *least*
> inherent microtonal combinations possible...:)

Hi, Joseph,

I play the trumpet (at an amateur level), and I would agree that it
is not one of the better candidates for obtaining microtones with a
conventional instrument.

> How far can a trumpet player bend up and down with the lips in
> various registers?

As others have already pointed out, much more easily down than up. I
recently attempted to play something on the trumpet along with a 5/17-
comma meantone midi accompaniment track that I had prepared (keeping
A=440), and I found that I could produce the C's and F's most easily
if pushed the tuning slide all the way in (to raise the pitch
slightly) and then lowered the other pitches by either lipping and/or
using the pinkie tuning slide (possible only when the third valve is
depressed). Thus, (concert) Bb would be played (on a Bb trumpet)
with no valves depressed, whereas A# would be played with the 1st and
3rd valves depressed and the pinkie tuning slide extended.

As an amateur, my limit for lipping a pitch downward is around 25 or
30 cents, but of course a virtuoso could do better. But I agree with
another response that you should not expect a player to execute
accurate changes in pitch-bending in passages with rapid movement of
notes.

> ...
> I realize that the brass instruments are based upon the harmonic
> series, and I've written for horn in just intonation where the horn
> player plays the "natural" pitches (not always the ones generally
> used) go get at the harmonic series for each position. Does the
> trumpet work similarly, or don't they like to play that way?? (I
> happened to have a *very* adventurous horn player who was "into"
just
> intonation before *I* was...)

The horn is much better suited to microtonal experimentation, since
the 7th, 11th, and 13th harmonics are all within the normal range of
the instrument (whereas with the trumpet they're an octave higher
than that, relatively speaking). These harmonics are normally
avoided, because they're out of tune with a twelve-tone octave, but
for microtonality they're very handy.

In addition, the horn also offers the possibility of pulling the
valve slides out farther (a lot of adjustment is possible) or even
(in a double horn) swapping them between the F and Bb sides of the
horn. For example, putting the Bb 3rd valve slide into the F side
will give you something close to quartertones when the 3rd valve is
depressed, either alone or in combination with other valves.

> Any insights or practical observations would be appreciated. I
> really don't want to write *yet another* standard 12-tET piece for
> this combo, if possible...

Now if your trumpet player had access to a slide trumpet, then you
could have any pitch within the range of the instrument. Problem
with this, however, is that the player must learn a new technique,
and the agility offered by valves is lost. What I would like to see
is a valve trumpet with a thumb-operated slide added that would
adjust the pitch no matter which valves were depressed. In order to
have a total range of adjustment of ~130 cents (for +-65 cents of
pitch alteration), if the thumb were to travel ~150 mm total (or +-75
mm from its rest position), it would't work to have the thumb operate
the slide directly. Instead, there would have to be some sort of
linkage that provided a mechanical advantage of speed (or travel) of
~2.5 times.

Short of making permanent modifications to an existing instrument,
there is one other possibility for producing greatly altered
intervals on a trumpet. If it were possible to have an alternate
(longer) 3rd-valve slide manufactured to produce a pitch 50 cents
lower than usual when the 3rd valve was depressed, then you could
have 12-ET with the 3rd valve up and quartertones with the 3rd valve
depressed (besides being the most adjustable in pitch, since this
piece of tubing *is* the pinky tuning slide). Only a few 12-ET notes
would be missing, most of them in the lower part of the range, and
the instrument could be converted back to its original state in a
matter of seconds by swapping the original valve slide back in. This
would certainly be much less expensive than a custom-built
instrument, and the playing technique would be much, much easier (and
with much more agility) than with lipping the pitch on a conventional
instrument. Perhaps a brass manufacturer could be persuaded to offer
this as an accessory item for *all* of the valved brass instruments.
(Anyway, just a thought.)

--George

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" <gdsecor@y...>
wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_51871.html#51985
>
> ***Thanks so much, George, for your valuable and insightful
comments
> at the above link.
>
> > Now if your trumpet player had access to a slide trumpet, then
you
> > could have any pitch within the range of the instrument.
>
> ***Yes, I've seen these, I believe on a Johnny Reinhard concert,
and
> they are very neat. Of course, few players own them or have access
> to them.

Unfortunately.

> Problem
> > with this, however, is that the player must learn a new
technique,
> > and the agility offered by valves is lost.
>
> ***It must be *far* different.

Fortunately, the hardest part, that involving the embouchure (tone
production, range, and endurance), is no different. But a trombone-
style technique must be employed, involving learning the positions
(in this case microtonal positions, as well) and moving the slide
quickly and accurately at the proper time to avoid smearing the
tone. Many trills or ornaments that are executed using the valves
are no longer possible, so you almost have to consider this a
different instrument.

--George

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> This chart is more useful than I initially suspected. Thanks for
the
> clarification!
>
> Joseph

The chart is useful, but remember it is for the octave c'' to b''.
There are less possibilities in the octave c' to b'.

Here is a chart for f# to c'', if two finger-ings are given, the
first is lower (on my trumpet), if finger 1 is given, then the first
slide can be pulled to play the quartertone below.

f#-1/4 1pulled23 +medium lip down
f# 123
g-1/4 1pulled03
g 103
ab-1/4 only 023 lip down
ab 023
a-1/4 1pulled20 +medium lipdown
a 120 or 003
b-1/4 1pulled00 +small lip down
b 100
h-1/4 only 020 lip down
h 020
c'-1/4 only 000 lip down
c' 000
c#'-1/4 1pulled23
c#' 123
d'-1/4 1pulled03
d' 103
eb'-1/4 only with 023 lip down
eb' 023
e'-1/4 1pulled20
e' 120 or 003
f'-1/4 1pulled00
f' 100
f#'-1/4 1pulled23
f#' 123 or 020
g'- 1pulled03
g' 000 or 103
g#'-1/4 only 023 lip down
g#' 023
a'-1/4 1pulled20
a' 120 or 003
b'-1/4 1 pulled00 0r 1pulled23
b' 123 (hard to play fast) or 100
h'-1/4 020 lip down or 1pulled03
h' 103 (hard to play fast) or 020
c''-1/4 only with lip
c'' 023 (hard to play fast) or 000

Gabor

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "alternativetuning"

/tuning/topicId_51871.html#51989

<alternativetuning@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > This chart is more useful than I initially suspected. Thanks for
> the
> > clarification!
> >
> > Joseph
>
> The chart is useful, but remember it is for the octave c'' to b''.
> There are less possibilities in the octave c' to b'.
>
> Here is a chart for f# to c'', if two finger-ings are given, the
> first is lower (on my trumpet), if finger 1 is given, then the
first
> slide can be pulled to play the quartertone below.
>
> f#-1/4 1pulled23 +medium lip down
> f# 123
> g-1/4 1pulled03
> g 103
> ab-1/4 only 023 lip down
> ab 023
> a-1/4 1pulled20 +medium lipdown
> a 120 or 003
> b-1/4 1pulled00 +small lip down
> b 100
> h-1/4 only 020 lip down
> h 020
> c'-1/4 only 000 lip down
> c' 000
> c#'-1/4 1pulled23
> c#' 123
> d'-1/4 1pulled03
> d' 103
> eb'-1/4 only with 023 lip down
> eb' 023
> e'-1/4 1pulled20
> e' 120 or 003
> f'-1/4 1pulled00
> f' 100
> f#'-1/4 1pulled23
> f#' 123 or 020
> g'- 1pulled03
> g' 000 or 103
> g#'-1/4 only 023 lip down
> g#' 023
> a'-1/4 1pulled20
> a' 120 or 003
> b'-1/4 1 pulled00 0r 1pulled23
> b' 123 (hard to play fast) or 100
> h'-1/4 020 lip down or 1pulled03
> h' 103 (hard to play fast) or 020
> c''-1/4 only with lip
> c'' 023 (hard to play fast) or 000
>
> Gabor

***Thanks, Gabor... This is very helpful...

Joseph

🔗Kami ROUSSEAU <kamikulture@yahoo.ca>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" wrote:
>The horn is much better suited to microtonal experimentation, since
>the 7th, 11th, and 13th harmonics are all within the normal range of
>the instrument (whereas with the trumpet they're an octave higher than that,
>relatively speaking).

Good point.

>Now if your trumpet player had access to a slide trumpet, then you
>could have any pitch within the range of the instrument.

Steve Berstein (from NYC group Sex Mob) recorded some jazz CD's on slide
trumpet.

As a slide trumpet player myself, I would say the most disturbing aspect of
playing it is listening to recordings of yourself and thinking "yuck, this note
was one comma off-pitch and I used to slide to slowly bring to back to the
correct intonation."

>and the agility offered by valves is lost.

True.

>What I would like to see is a valve trumpet with a thumb-operated slide

Holton's Firebird model is a valve trumpet with an added slide. Maynard
Ferguson ordered one custom-built with a 6-semitone slide.

Indofunk is a band that features a Firebird-trumpet player.

=====
7Kami

______________________________________________________________________
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🔗George D. Secor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kami ROUSSEAU <kamikulture@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "George D. Secor" wrote:
> >What I would like to see is a valve trumpet with a thumb-operated
slide
>
> Holton's Firebird model is a valve trumpet with an added slide.
Maynard
> Ferguson ordered one custom-built with a 6-semitone slide.

I found the Firebird Page here, which contains lots of pictures and
even a few video clips:

http://www.trumpetstuff.com/images/firebird/

But it looks like (as of 2000) it's no longer in production.

Here's the opening message from a thread way back from 1996 about the
instrument:

/tpin/topicId_unknown.html#20

It appears that the main tuning slide was modified so that it could
be moved freely like a trombone slide, and the bell was bent upward
slightly so it wouldn't get in the way. The pitch could be lowered
up to a major third. (Ferguson's instrument, which lowered the pitch
a half-octave, was special -- one of a kind.) It can be played
either with the slide alone, valves alone, or in combination.

--George