12th experiments

PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some degree or
another. But I want to play them for some folks out of curiosity.

cb

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bailey <chris@m...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50810.html#50810

>
> PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some degree
or
> another. But I want to play them for some folks out of curiosity.
>
>
> cb

***What makes you say that, Chris?? I like my *own* piece, _Beepy_
and there have been several interesting and successful pieces using
the BP scale...

J. Pehrson

>PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some degree
>or another. But I want to play them for some folks out of curiosity.

They most certainly did not, as listening to one of Charles
Carpenter's albums will show.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bailey <chris@m...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_50810.html#50810
>
>
> >
> > PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some
degree
> or
> > another. But I want to play them for some folks out of curiosity.
> >
> >
> > cb
>
>
> ***What makes you say that, Chris?? I like my *own* piece, _Beepy_
> and there have been several interesting and successful pieces using
> the BP scale...
>
> J. Pehrson

I think he meant they failed to convince some people (like me) of the
premise behind such scales: that notes an octave (2:1) apart would no
longer sound like the same "pitch class" but that notes a tritave
(3:1, conventional '12th') apart would sound like the same "pitch
class".

It's interesting that with sine waves, the same pitch class seems to
occur when notes are about 1209 cents apart (the exact amount
depending on register). Bill Sethares shows in his book/CD package
_Tuning, Timbre, Spectrum, Scale_ that with the
appropriate "stretched" inharmonic overtone structure ('timbre'), the
perceived 'interval of equivalence' can be made as wide as 2.1:1
(~1285 cents). But the effect falls apart if you try to stretch
things further than that, and I certainly have never perceived
an 'interval of equivalence' at 3:1 (1902 cents) regardless of the
overtone structure used.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some degree
> >or another. But I want to play them for some folks out of
curiosity.
>
> They most certainly did not, as listening to one of Charles
> Carpenter's albums will show.
>
> -Carl

I think is music is absolutely fantastic -- I highly recommend it to
everyone, especially fans of King Crimson and the like -- but I still
don't hear tritave equivalence, which is the 'failure' I think Chris
was referring to.

In a message dated 2004:01:02 09:43:55 PM, jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bailey <chris@m...> wrote:
>
>/tuning/topicId_50810.html#50810
>
>> PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some degree
>>or another. But I want to play them for some folks out of curiosity.
>>
>> cb
>
>
>***What makes you say that, Chris?? I like my *own* piece, _Beepy_
>and there have been several interesting and successful pieces using
>the BP scale...
>
>J. Pehrson

BTW 1220 cents has been cited (where I forget) as an inharmonic Tibetan
"octave" interval meshing nicely with some 610-628 cent range tritone and a 310
caliber m3rd. Wendy Carlos she says that scales like these - from Tibet, Bhutan
and Nepal - are "tritone-rich"...
I am _almost_ tempted to call Tibetan a "ruff BP scale" or a rough subset
of 24, 36, 72 EDO but I am reluctant to confuse others or, more importantly
;) myself more than necessary...what with all these overboard-wordagings...

In a message dated 2004:01:02 11:29:37 PM under a different thread, paul-e
writes:

>Joseph is right on the money when he brings up the diatonic scale.
>The "musician's" view of consonance is extremely intimately tied up
>with the diatonic scale, which appears to have considerable power in
>determining, at least, how "Western" common-practice music will be
>heard by "Western" listeners. George Secor recently posted examples
>here showing how the diminished fourth, diminished sixth, and
>diminished seventh sound like dissonances, while the major third,
>perfect fifth, and major sixth sound like consonances, despite the
>fact that the only way of distinguishing the first set of intervals
>from the second (since 12-equal was used) is by relating them to the
>prevailing diatonic context.

How is Secor's theory that [largely] different from Hindemith & Co.'s in
this "diatonic context"? Or am I gettin' in over my head askin' this...(but
hafta even tho' it sounds embarassin'ly like a damn brain-fart).

In a message dated 2004:01:02 11:14:25 PM, paul-E writes:

>I think ...[Carpenter's] music is absolutely fantastic -- I highly recommend
it to
>everyone, especially fans of King Crimson and the like -- but I still
>don't hear tritave equivalence, which is the 'failure' I think Chris
>was referring to.

Crim-fan here (can ya tell from the Belew Beat worddrunkenness?).
OK!, Ur-hum-OM! _Fail_ and "failure", etc. are such loaded words in this
context! (i.e._musica poetica_, musical aesthetics/semantics/affect, blahblah,
etc.)
Mark me words, like the ol' sayin' goes: There is NO failure in
attemptin'...
In fact, as for me, me bein' _agent improvisore_, ImMHO "attempting" goes
a long distance (as long as one doesn't just frikkin' wank off fav riffs all
the bloody time...) - esp'ly the "beautiful accidents" that seem to just
happen with more brain-stunning frequency with _certain_ scales and/or modes...
like the first kiss, petting session, or bungey jump [or the first time
somebody held a loaded gun to your head & ya obviously live to tell the tale],
one knows one can't ever recapture that _exact_, _precise_ feeling again
(except in, mayhaps, vivid dreams)...
& ya find yourself praying that somebody, someone, anyone is recordin' it
all for prosperity (or some semblance thereof for your personal archives)...
ah the ephemereality of music and therefor life itself...

Hey Joe, just an idea... ever yet try mix'n'matchin' Beepy with XJ
Scott's "Alien Discotech" (13th root of Just Tritone 7:5)?
We might call this combined scale "Experiment 626 a.k.a. Stitch", or
"TricksterArchetype" or sumthin' along those lines :)
[if ya do create something, could ya make a Mac-friendly MIDI file fur
me, ok, & send ta me? thanx much inaddvance for ya Time&Space in this musical
Matter... ;)

---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|
Hanuman Zhang

"When you're trying to do something you should feel absolutely alone, like a
spark in the blackness of the universe."-Xenakis

"Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."
--Arthur C. Clarke, _The Nine Billion Names of God_

[Paul E., quoted by czhang...]
>>Joseph is right on the money when he brings up the diatonic scale.
>>The "musician's" view of consonance is extremely intimately tied up
>>with the diatonic scale, which appears to have considerable power in
>>determining, at least, how "Western" common-practice music will be
>>heard by "Western" listeners. George Secor recently posted examples
>>here showing how the diminished fourth, diminished sixth, and
>>diminished seventh sound like dissonances, while the major third,
>>perfect fifth, and major sixth sound like consonances, despite the
>>fact that the only way of distinguishing the first set of intervals
>>from the second (since 12-equal was used) is by relating them to the
>>prevailing diatonic context.

He did? I missed that!

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50810.html#50832

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bailey <chris@m...> wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_50810.html#50810
> >
> >
> > >
> > > PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some
> degree
> > or
> > > another. But I want to play them for some folks out of
curiosity.
> > >
> > >
> > > cb
> >
> >
> > ***What makes you say that, Chris?? I like my *own* piece,
_Beepy_
> > and there have been several interesting and successful pieces
using
> > the BP scale...
> >
> > J. Pehrson
>
> I think he meant they failed to convince some people (like me) of
the
> premise behind such scales: that notes an octave (2:1) apart would
no
> longer sound like the same "pitch class" but that notes a tritave
> (3:1, conventional '12th') apart would sound like the same "pitch
> class".
>

***I'm not getting this, Paul... In the BP scale there is *no* 2:1,
correct, so there is no 2:1 "octave" to compare the 3:1 "octave"
to... yes??

So, you're saying that the 3:1 is such a scale doesn't seem like
an "interval of equivalence" in the scale?? It is, however, the most
consonant interval in such a scale, no? or am I wrong...??

Thanks!!

Joseph

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50810.html#50898

>
> How is Secor's theory that [largely] different from Hindemith &
Co.'s in
> this "diatonic context"? Or am I gettin' in over my head askin'
this...(but
> hafta even tho' it sounds embarassin'ly like a damn brain-fart).
>

***Hey czhang!

I don't want to keep you zhanging... I believe Hindemith and Secor
have similar ideas in this. But, I believe that Easley Blackwood has
the most comprehensive view of diatonicity of all, applying it to
many different, and unusual ET scales.

And then there is Bill Sethares, the most mesmerizing and fascinating
of all who, in stretching partials, can make the dissonant consonant
and the diatonic chromatic!

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 2004:01:02 11:29:37 PM under a different thread,
paul-e
> writes:
>
> >Joseph is right on the money when he brings up the diatonic scale.
> >The "musician's" view of consonance is extremely intimately tied
up
> >with the diatonic scale, which appears to have considerable power
in
> >determining, at least, how "Western" common-practice music will be
> >heard by "Western" listeners. George Secor recently posted
examples
> >here showing how the diminished fourth, diminished sixth, and
> >diminished seventh sound like dissonances, while the major third,
> >perfect fifth, and major sixth sound like consonances, despite the
> >fact that the only way of distinguishing the first set of
intervals
> >from the second (since 12-equal was used) is by relating them to
the
> >prevailing diatonic context.
>
> How is Secor's theory that [largely] different from Hindemith &
Co.'s in
> this "diatonic context"? Or am I gettin' in over my head askin'
this...(but
> hafta even tho' it sounds embarassin'ly like a damn brain-fart).

LOL! Don't worry, Hanuman. I'm not familiar with Hindemith's theories
on enharmonically equivalent intervals differing in consonances . . .
but I really wasn't referring to Secor's "theory" at all, just a set
of examples he posted here recently:

/tuning/topicId_48499.html#49956

> In a message dated 2004:01:02 11:14:25 PM, paul-E writes:
>
> >I think ...[Carpenter's] music is absolutely fantastic -- I highly
recommend
> it to
> >everyone, especially fans of King Crimson and the like -- but I
still
> >don't hear tritave equivalence, which is the 'failure' I think
Chris
> >was referring to.
>
> Crim-fan here (can ya tell from the Belew Beat
worddrunkenness?).
> OK!, Ur-hum-OM! _Fail_ and "failure", etc. are such loaded
words in this
> context! (i.e._musica poetica_, musical
aesthetics/semantics/affect, blahblah,
> etc.)
> Mark me words, like the ol' sayin' goes: There is NO failure in
> attemptin'...
> In fact, as for me, me bein' _agent improvisore_,
ImMHO "attempting" goes
> a long distance (as long as one doesn't just frikkin' wank off fav
riffs all
> the bloody time...) - esp'ly the "beautiful accidents" that seem to
just
> happen with more brain-stunning frequency with _certain_ scales
and/or modes...
> like the first kiss, petting session, or bungey jump [or the
first time
> somebody held a loaded gun to your head & ya obviously live to tell
the tale],
> one knows one can't ever recapture that _exact_, _precise_ feeling
again
> (except in, mayhaps, vivid dreams)...
> & ya find yourself praying that somebody, someone, anyone is
recordin' it
> all for prosperity (or some semblance thereof for your personal
archives)...
> ah the ephemereality of music and therefor life itself...

Heartily agreed . . . and sorry for promulgating Chris's use of the
word "failure" in a context where someone might have read it
wrong . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> [Paul E., quoted by czhang...]
> >>Joseph is right on the money when he brings up the diatonic
scale.
> >>The "musician's" view of consonance is extremely intimately tied
up
> >>with the diatonic scale, which appears to have considerable power
in
> >>determining, at least, how "Western" common-practice music will
be
> >>heard by "Western" listeners. George Secor recently posted
examples
> >>here showing how the diminished fourth, diminished sixth, and
> >>diminished seventh sound like dissonances, while the major third,
> >>perfect fifth, and major sixth sound like consonances, despite
the
> >>fact that the only way of distinguishing the first set of
intervals
> >>from the second (since 12-equal was used) is by relating them to
the
> >>prevailing diatonic context.
>
> He did? I missed that!
>
> -Carl

/tuning/topicId_48499.html#49956

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_50810.html#50832
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Chris Bailey <chris@m...> wrote:
> > >
> > > /tuning/topicId_50810.html#50810
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > PS. . . Yes, I know they all ended up being failures to some
> > degree
> > > or
> > > > another. But I want to play them for some folks out of
> curiosity.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > cb
> > >
> > >
> > > ***What makes you say that, Chris?? I like my *own* piece,
> _Beepy_
> > > and there have been several interesting and successful pieces
> using
> > > the BP scale...
> > >
> > > J. Pehrson
> >
> > I think he meant they failed to convince some people (like me) of
> the
> > premise behind such scales: that notes an octave (2:1) apart
would
> no
> > longer sound like the same "pitch class" but that notes a tritave
> > (3:1, conventional '12th') apart would sound like the same "pitch
> > class".
> >
>
> ***I'm not getting this, Paul... In the BP scale there is *no*
2:1,
> correct, so there is no 2:1 "octave" to compare the 3:1 "octave"
> to... yes??

Well, there *are* intervals that come close to multiples of the
octave, and those (to me) still sound like the same pitch class, if
somewhat "out-of-tune" . . .

> So, you're saying that the 3:1 is such a scale doesn't seem like
> an "interval of equivalence" in the scale??

Right.

> It is, however, the most
> consonant interval in such a scale, no?

Almost certainly, yes -- unless you count the unison :) !

>/tuning/topicId_48499.html#49956

Thanks Paul! Got it from your last message to Hanuman.
I *try* to read everything on the list. I really do! :)

-Carl

In a message dated 2004:01:03 07:28:02 PM, jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

>***Hey czhang!
>
>I don't want to keep you zhanging...

*cwazii gent(i)le snarfle!*

>I believe Hindemith and Secor have similar ideas in this.

::imitates Bogie in trenchcoat:: I thought so... I jus' need'd
confirmation(s) of my sneakin' suspicions...

> But, I believe that Easley Blackwood has
>the most comprehensive view of diatonicity of all, applying it to
>many different, and unusual ET scales.

Yepyep, I am aware of Blackwood's work. Thanx to W.A. Mathieu.

>And then there is Bill Sethares, the most mesmerizing and fascinating
>of all who, in stretching partials, can make the dissonant consonant
>and the diatonic chromatic!

Oh yeas! Sethares is up there with Xenakis IMHO...
If Xenakis is ascetic representative of the Dark Left-Handed Path, Sethares
is representative of a joyfully subversive extension of the Middle Path...

---|-----|--------|-------------|---------------------|
Hanuman Zhang

"... simple, chaotic, anarchic and menacing.... This is what people of today
have lost and need most - the ability to experience permanent bodily and
mental ecstasy, to be a receiving station for messages howling by on the ether from
other worlds and nonhuman entities, those peculiar short-wave messages which
come in static-free in the secret pleasure center in the brain." - Slava Ranko
(Donald L. Philippi)

The German word for "noise" _Geräusch_ is derived from _rauschen_ "the
sound of the wind," related to _Rausch_ "ecstasy, intoxication" hinting at some
of the possible aesthetic, bodily effects of noise in music. In Japanese
Romaji: _uchu_ = "universe"... _uchoten_ = "ecstasty," "rapture"..._uchujin_ =
[space] alien!

"When you're trying to do something you should feel absolutely alone, like a
spark in the blackness of the universe."-Xenakis

"The sky and its stars make music in you." - Dendera, Egypt wall
inscription

"Sound as an isolated object of reproduction, call it our collective memory
bank... Any sound can be you." - DJ Spooky that Subliminal Kid (a.k.a. Paul D.
Miller)

"Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out."
--Arthur C. Clarke, _The Nine Billion Names of God_

In a message dated 2004:01:03 09:17:13 PM, paul-E quoteth me & writs:

>> [. . . .] am I gettin' in over my head askin'
>>this...(but hafta even tho' it sounds embarassin'ly like a damn brain-fart).
>
>LOL! Don't worry, Hanuman. I'm not familiar with Hindemith's theories
>on enharmonically equivalent intervals differing in consonances . . .

::scratches braincase:: AFAIK I am not sure Hindemith even approached
enharmonics, much less sub(minor)harmonics... Anybody know for sure 0_o?
IIRC I vaguely recall Busoni not exactly liking Hindemith for several
reasons - this being prob'ly a minor one...

>> In a message dated 2004:01:02 11:14:25 PM, paul-E writes:
>
>> >I think ...[Carpenter's] music is absolutely fantastic -- I highly
>>recommend it to everyone, especially fans of King Crimson and the like --
but I
>>still don't hear tritave equivalence, which is the 'failure' I think
>>Chris was referring to.
>
>> Crim-fan here (can ya tell from the Belew Beat
>>worddrunkenness?).
>> OK!, Ur-hum-OM! _Fail_ and "failure", etc. are such loaded
>>words in this context! (i.e._musica poetica_, musical
>>aesthetics/semantics/affect, blahblah, etc.)
>> Mark me words, like the ol' sayin' goes: There is NO failure in
>> attemptin'...
>> In fact, as for me, me bein' _agent improvisore_,
>>ImMHO "attempting" goes
>> a long distance (as long as one doesn't just frikkin' wank off fav
>>riffs all the bloody time...) - esp'ly the "beautiful accidents" that seem
to
>>just happen with more brain-stunning frequency with _certain_ scales
>>and/or modes...
>> like the first kiss, petting session, or bungey jump [or the
>>first time somebody held a loaded gun to your head & ya obviously live to
tell
>>the tale],
>> one knows one can't ever recapture that _exact_, _precise_ feeling
>>again (except in, mayhaps, vivid dreams)...
>> & ya find yourself praying that somebody, someone, anyone is
>>recordin' it all for prosperity (or some semblance thereof for your
personal
>>archives)...
>> ah the ephemereality of music and therefor life itself...
>
>Heartily agreed . . . and sorry for promulgating Chris's use of the
>word "failure" in a context where someone might have read it
>wrong . . .

::imitates Monkey King clownin' as Pope, makes sign of forgiveness &
blessing::
Try as I might to be careful with even such bigdeal lil thing(s) as
language(s) even an Incarnation of a TrixterGod is not infallible ::takes off
lobstertail Pope hat, cuz it's cookin me lil brainies, makin me claustrophobic as Hell::
Fact is Trixters tend to get in to nasty jams waay over their
pointy-lil-Higher-Primate heads quite often... ::sings off key "I get by with lil help
from my friends" & scampers off to other creative mischief, bedlam and mayhem::
::BiK GWiNNie::

---///// __/_//_/ __/_//_////// __/_//_/ __/_//_/

in the yera of 2004 CE, year 4702 of the Huangdi era,
Year of the Wooden Monkey, _Jia-Shen_...

_Nom de Guerre et Nom de 'Nick'_: Hanuman "Stitch/626" Zhang
AIN Resistance partisan code name: "Z23-4C"
WOGeR (Wiley Oriental Gentleman/Rogue)
BBC (BritishBornChinaman)
Avatar of Sun Wu K'ung, a.k.a. Sun Wukong, a.k.a _Ma-Lau_ ("Monkey
King")
a.k.a. "TricksterGod of the Glorious Anti-Imperialist Chinese Boxers"
¡¡¡ TricksterShapeShifterIncarnate !!! >^..^< ';'
;P~~~
"one o' dem best-est & bright-est a' de bottom o' de barrel"
<A HREF="http://www.friendster.com/user.jsp">Friendster - zHANgster</A>

=> om hung hanumatay rudratmakai hung phat <=
mantra to Hanuman the Hindu Monkey TricksterGod

"I rather be whole than good." - Carl Jung

<= thee prIs ov eXistenZ iz aetern'l warfaer 'N' kreativ playf'llnizz... =>
"Mea typo, mea typo, mea maxima typo... "

"Life is all a great joke, but only the brave ever get the point."
- Kenneth Rexroth

googolgigglabyte
goegolgiechelbijt - of - met een vette megagrijns
GoogolGekicherByte
googolrisibyte ===> el byte de la risita de googol
googolrisadinhabyte ===> o byte de risadinha de googol
googolspassoctet
guugoIllolbijt
gugolhihibajt
gugolngisibayt
okukolkikikol
egúgelegigalibaith
kiletstroknolyadgigabaiti
cimacimakekehapi
baitakhakhweifayatrauni
ufi'auayinisuguguluarkhar
pokatra oemadroabhethetre
inarevuta yhiyhayhake nawyo
AnekoMeppathmoTtilvatelmDiggulgyttahat
va'i utne tuktukt'ishushukuko`g tuk go`go`o`gwgaga
ggsngngsbd [gugulaNexebidi]

http://www.boheme-magazine.net