Notation: Dave / Carl

Hi guys,

Dave, you put up the following:
[Carl]
> Without rehearsals you're doomed, no matter what notation you use,
> unless you're into sound effects, some quartertone ornaments or
> something.

[Dave]
You may be doomed anyway. See these candid comments by a performer.
/sibelius-list/message/6889

I happen to find that both an illuminating and not surprising story from a busy London orchestral musician. I am fully confident in everything he says, and frankly agree with a good portion of it.

*However!* That doesn't mean that the experience he portrays will be cloned, across the board, for every non-traditional, and especially non-12tet piece, that comes down the pike. I don't think you could find a more difficult challenge in the entire world than to attempt a new and complex notation for a large orchestra. And yet the more obvious attempt is to have music, in a notation, that falls somewhere between Joe Pehrson's "one person and a recording" and 80 people trying to find their way.

I believe Alison Monteith will go there. I believe, in a fashion, Kraig Grady has been there. I'm sure there are other people who can point out other small to medium size groups that:

1. got people interested in the music enough to want to learn it (along with the notation)
2. had a notation that was successful in transmitting the intent of the composition
3. 1 + 2 = a quality performance

Maybe Toby Twining falls into this, and certainly John Luther Adams may be there as well.

An orch player going to a recording session is *not* the barometer of a new music with a new notation. It will work only with the passage of time AND music of compelling stature. IMO.

Also, Carl mentioned:
> I forsee enormous problems with establishing anything about
> the nature/success of a new music, but it doesn't bother me.

But I'm sure it bothers composers writing that music, and the focus should be on them, not people chatting on the sidelines of art.

Cheers,
Jon

>Also, Carl mentioned:
>> I forsee enormous problems with establishing anything about
>> the nature/success of a new music, but it doesn't bother me.
>
>But I'm sure it bothers composers writing that music, and the
>focus should be on them, not people chatting on the sidelines
>of art.

Exactly my point, Jon. By "establish", I meant (and I assume
Dave meant) "establish by talking about it". Composing music
is the only way to find out. In other words, I don't think the
theory should bother with the level of assumptions that Dave
seemed to be worried about making.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Exactly my point, Jon. By "establish", I meant (and I assume
> Dave meant) "establish by talking about it". Composing music
> is the only way to find out. In other words, I don't think the
> theory should bother with the level of assumptions that Dave
> seemed to be worried about making.

I see. The sentence you wrote still seems ambiguous and/or opaque to me, but your explanation of it isn't. I'll move along now... :)

Cheers,
Jon

>> Exactly my point, Jon. By "establish", I meant (and I assume
>> Dave meant) "establish by talking about it". Composing music
>> is the only way to find out. In other words, I don't think the
>> theory should bother with the level of assumptions that Dave
>> seemed to be worried about making.
>
>I see. The sentence you wrote still seems ambiguous and/or opaque
>to me, but your explanation of it isn't. I'll move along now... :)

Actually I'm rather flattered that you were reading.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50466.html#50466

> *However!* That doesn't mean that the experience he portrays will
be cloned, across the board, for every non-traditional, and
especially non-12tet piece, that comes down the pike. I don't think
you could find a more difficult challenge in the entire world than to
attempt a new and complex notation for a large orchestra. And yet the
more obvious attempt is to have music, in a notation, that falls
somewhere between Joe Pehrson's "one person and a recording" and 80
people trying to find their way.
>

***Hi Jon,

Well, we'll see what happens when Johnny Reinhard presents my
Blackjack wind quintet this March 28, or, in other words, "five
people with no recording... " :)

>
>
> Maybe Toby Twining falls into this, and certainly John Luther Adams
may be there as well.
>

***Much as I greatly admire Toby Twining's _Chrysalid Requiem_ (and
even have a copy) I certainly wouldn't use it as a testament to the
efficacy of the Ben Johnston microtonal notation.

Anytime performers need to use *headphones* to realize what is
written in the notation (!) rather argues against the compelling
clarity of the notation, IMHO... :)

J. Pehrson

>> Maybe Toby Twining falls into this, and certainly John Luther Adams
>> may be there as well.
>
>***Much as I greatly admire Toby Twining's _Chrysalid Requiem_ (and
>even have a copy) I certainly wouldn't use it as a testament to the
>efficacy of the Ben Johnston microtonal notation.
>
>Anytime performers need to use *headphones* to realize what is
>written in the notation (!) rather argues against the compelling
>clarity of the notation, IMHO... :)

This overlooks notation's role in composition.

As to the general success of other performances that have not used
headphones or keyboard accompaniment, my opinion is well documented.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50466.html#50605

> >> Maybe Toby Twining falls into this, and certainly John Luther
Adams
> >> may be there as well.
> >
> >***Much as I greatly admire Toby Twining's _Chrysalid Requiem_
(and
> >even have a copy) I certainly wouldn't use it as a testament to
the
> >efficacy of the Ben Johnston microtonal notation.
> >
> >Anytime performers need to use *headphones* to realize what is
> >written in the notation (!) rather argues against the compelling
> >clarity of the notation, IMHO... :)
>
> This overlooks notation's role in composition.
>
> As to the general success of other performances that have not used
> headphones or keyboard accompaniment, my opinion is well documented.
>
> -Carl

***Hi Carl,

I didn't realize that any of the performances of the Requiem did
*not* use headphones. Were there such performances??

Thanks!

JP
(Although I think, personally, that the use of headphones creates a
kind of "space aged" accent to this work which I like... :)

>***Hi Carl,
>
>I didn't realize that any of the performances of the Requiem did
>*not* use headphones. Were there such performances??
>
>Thanks!
>
>JP

No such performances occurred. I was referring to performances
of other music.

-Carl