Dodekachrome

Unless anyone has a valid objection, from now on this will be my term
for a Twelve-Note Chromatic Scale. I will amend my text accordingly.

This should end the confusion and leave the term 'Chromatic' open to
re-use by anyone who wants to define N-note chromatic scales.

Peter

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:

> Unless anyone has a valid objection, from now on this will be my
term
> for a Twelve-Note Chromatic Scale. I will amend my text accordingly.

To start with, what exactly are you defining--the scale of 12 equally
tempered intervals to an octave?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, gwsmith@s... wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:
>
> > Unless anyone has a valid objection, from now on this will be my
> term
> > for a Twelve-Note Chromatic Scale. I will amend my text
accordingly.
>
> To start with, what exactly are you defining--the scale of 12
equally
> tempered intervals to an octave?

Hi Gene

I am trying to invent a single neutral word to replace four, those
being 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale', which does not exclusively refer
to ET but which includes JI and all other 12-tone clavier tunings and
from which (on a clavier at least and with debates about Mozart set
aside) the diatonic scales are drawn as subsets by the omission of
chromatic scale degrees.

If you know of a pre-existing word with this meaning, please let me
know what it is. I had previously thought it was 'dodekaphony' but
accept that I have been wrong to use that word, which does indeed
refer to Schoenberg's note-row composition technique, although there
are still ambiguous definitions to be found out there - see
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=dodecaphony

(And please note that I am in the habit of putting back the kappa
into words of Greek origin or derivation that have not already been
completely messed up by a subsequently softened Roman 'c', such as
kinema. In fact (pron. 'fakt' and not 'fast') I am often tempted to
spell Caesar as Kaesar simply because that is its correct Latin
pronunciation, there not having been the absurdly named 'soft c' in
Roman Latin. The Romans did possess the letter 'S' and used it too
quite consistently.)

- Peter

How about "dodecachromatic"?

Johnny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:

> I am trying to invent a single neutral word to replace four, those
> being 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale', which does not exclusively
refer
> to ET but which includes JI and all other 12-tone clavier tunings
and
> from which (on a clavier at least and with debates about Mozart set
> aside) the diatonic scales are drawn as subsets by the omission of
> chromatic scale degrees.

I don't understand what the word is intended to mean--all scales of
12 or fewer notes? All such scales which are approximated by a subset
of 12 equal notes to the octave (so that we get a "pitch class" after
approximating?)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> How about "dodecachromatic"?
>
> Johnny

Well 'dodekachromatic' would be the adjective derived
from 'dodekachrome'. It demands something to describe, so I'd be back
to two words if not four. Also, as I said elsewhere, in words of
Greek origin I always put back the kappa, so it's 'dodeka-' and
not 'dodeca-'.

Surely it's not unreasonable that the system of music which has an
ancient and venerable history (despite Gene's efforts to push it down
the memory hole) should have a NAME, in the form of a single word? If
it already has some name other than the long-winded "Twelve Tone
Chromatic Scale As From C to C' On A Piano Including All The White
Keys And All The Black Keys", then please don't hide it from me.

Peter

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, gwsmith@s... wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:
>
> > I am trying to invent a single neutral word to replace four,
those
> > being 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale', which does not exclusively
> refer
> > to ET but which includes JI and all other 12-tone clavier tunings
> and
> > from which (on a clavier at least and with debates about Mozart
set
> > aside) the diatonic scales are drawn as subsets by the omission
of
> > chromatic scale degrees.
>
> I don't understand what the word is intended to mean--all scales of
> 12 or fewer notes? All such scales which are approximated by a
subset
> of 12 equal notes to the octave (so that we get a "pitch class"
after
> approximating?)

Gene

Are you really trying to tell me and the other 692 members of this
group plus whatever lurkers may come and go that you do not know what
a 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale' is? Perhaps I should say 'Twelve
Pitch Chromatic Scale' or 'Twelve Note Chromatic Scale'. Even my cat
knows what it is.

Peter

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:

> Are you really trying to tell me and the other 692 members of this
> group plus whatever lurkers may come and go that you do not know
what
> a 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale' is? Perhaps I should say 'Twelve
> Pitch Chromatic Scale' or 'Twelve Note Chromatic Scale'. Even my
cat
> knows what it is.

I know what it is. What I don't know is if that is what you are
trying to name. Why not just tell us?

on 12/17/03 12:39 PM, sault@cyberware.co.uk <sault@cyberware.co.uk> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, gwsmith@s... wrote:
>> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:
>>
>>> I am trying to invent a single neutral word to replace four,
> those
>>> being 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale', which does not exclusively
>> refer
>>> to ET but which includes JI and all other 12-tone clavier tunings
>> and
>>> from which (on a clavier at least and with debates about Mozart
> set
>>> aside) the diatonic scales are drawn as subsets by the omission
> of
>>> chromatic scale degrees.
>>
>> I don't understand what the word is intended to mean--all scales of
>> 12 or fewer notes? All such scales which are approximated by a
> subset
>> of 12 equal notes to the octave (so that we get a "pitch class"
> after
>> approximating?)
>
> Gene
>
> Are you really trying to tell me and the other 692 members of this
> group plus whatever lurkers may come and go that you do not know what
> a 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale' is? Perhaps I should say 'Twelve
> Pitch Chromatic Scale' or 'Twelve Note Chromatic Scale'. Even my cat
> knows what it is.

Peter,

I also thought Gene's question was reasonable. I may likely have missed
something, and Gene might have also missed something.

You refer to a lot of specifics in relation to the term Dodekaphonic
currently used in your paper:

http://www.odeion.org/atlantis/chapter-1.html

And yet in spite of the specifics, the term Dodekaphonic itself appears to
be defined quite openly, in keeping with what you just said "Twelve Tone
Chromatic Scale".

At the point of discussing a tentative definition for Dodekachrome here, I
can not help but be aware of some ambiguity as to what are the acceptable
limits of "Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale". Though my cat may know what this
is, I'm not sure my cat can readily distinguish the boundaries among
twelve-tone monotonic scales as to which are chromatic and which are not.
Chromatic has to me a structural meaning, but not a precise boundary. This
seems to be even the case in the definition of chromatic given in monz's
dictionary.

So it may well be that you intend to leave chromatic loosely defined, or
rather to leave it as it is currently defined (or not) in the current
musical culture. Is that what you are intending?

-Kurt

>
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, gwsmith@s... wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:
>
> > Are you really trying to tell me and the other 692 members of
this
> > group plus whatever lurkers may come and go that you do not know
> what
> > a 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale' is? Perhaps I should say 'Twelve
> > Pitch Chromatic Scale' or 'Twelve Note Chromatic Scale'. Even my
> cat
> > knows what it is.
>
> I know what it is. What I don't know is if that is what you are
> trying to name. Why not just tell us?

I just did.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> on 12/17/03 12:39 PM, sault@c... <sault@c...> wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, gwsmith@s... wrote:
> >> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am trying to invent a single neutral word to replace four,
> > those
> >>> being 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale', which does not exclusively
> >> refer
> >>> to ET but which includes JI and all other 12-tone clavier
tunings
> >> and
> >>> from which (on a clavier at least and with debates about Mozart
> > set
> >>> aside) the diatonic scales are drawn as subsets by the omission
> > of
> >>> chromatic scale degrees.
> >>
> >> I don't understand what the word is intended to mean--all scales
of
> >> 12 or fewer notes? All such scales which are approximated by a
> > subset
> >> of 12 equal notes to the octave (so that we get a "pitch class"
> > after
> >> approximating?)
> >
> > Gene
> >
> > Are you really trying to tell me and the other 692 members of this
> > group plus whatever lurkers may come and go that you do not know
what
> > a 'Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale' is? Perhaps I should say 'Twelve
> > Pitch Chromatic Scale' or 'Twelve Note Chromatic Scale'. Even my
cat
> > knows what it is.
>
> Peter,
>
> I also thought Gene's question was reasonable. I may likely have
missed
> something, and Gene might have also missed something.
>
> You refer to a lot of specifics in relation to the term Dodekaphonic
> currently used in your paper:
>
> http://www.odeion.org/atlantis/chapter-1.html
>
> And yet in spite of the specifics, the term Dodekaphonic itself
appears to
> be defined quite openly, in keeping with what you just said "Twelve
Tone
> Chromatic Scale".
>
> At the point of discussing a tentative definition for Dodekachrome
here, I
> can not help but be aware of some ambiguity as to what are the
acceptable
> limits of "Twelve Tone Chromatic Scale". Though my cat may know
what this
> is, I'm not sure my cat can readily distinguish the boundaries among
> twelve-tone monotonic scales as to which are chromatic and which
are not.
> Chromatic has to me a structural meaning, but not a precise
boundary. This
> seems to be even the case in the definition of chromatic given in
monz's
> dictionary.
>
> So it may well be that you intend to leave chromatic loosely
defined, or
> rather to leave it as it is currently defined (or not) in the
current
> musical culture. Is that what you are intending?
>
> -Kurt
>

Perhaps I'll stick with 'dodekaphonic' despite the bitching of the
sophist chorus-line which seeks to evade discussion of the matter in
hand by declaring that 'dodekaphonic' is a compositional technique of
Arnold Schoenberg when used to mean twelve-note chromatic scale and a
twelve-note chromatic scale when the intended meaning is a
compositional technique of Arnold Schoenberg.

Such people should realize, although they probably aren't capable of
doing so, that there is no such thing as a *pretend* stupidity.

Peter

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, sault@c... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50027.html#50075

> Perhaps I'll stick with 'dodekaphonic' despite the bitching of the
> sophist chorus-line

***I was thinking, too, that maybe this is the best approach,
Peter... Even though dodekaphonic has been associated with the 12-
tone technique it doesn't mean it can't be applied to something else,
particularly since 12-tone music is falling somewhat out of favor of
late...

Personally, I don't like the term "chromatic..." Certainly not
associated with 12-tET. Lots of things are "chromatic"... anything
with "color," I would imagine... :)

Joseph Pehrson

In a message dated 12/18/03 12:15:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

> Personally, I don't like the term "chromatic..." Certainly not
> associated with 12-tET. Lots of things are "chromatic"... anything
> with "color," I would imagine... :)
>
> Joseph Pehrson
>

And yet, quartertones are called bichromatic by Wyschnegradsky. Johnny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50027.html#50084

> In a message dated 12/18/03 12:15:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jpehrson@r... writes:
>
>
> > Personally, I don't like the term "chromatic..." Certainly not
> > associated with 12-tET. Lots of things are "chromatic"...
anything
> > with "color," I would imagine... :)
> >
> > Joseph Pehrson
> >
>
> And yet, quartertones are called bichromatic by Wyschnegradsky.
Johnny

***Hi Johnny!

Sure, but wasn't that in an era when quartertones were about the
only alternative??

best,

Joseph

In a message dated 12/18/2003 9:30:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

> Sure, but wasn't that in an era when quartertones were about the
> only alternative??
>
> best,
>
> Joseph
>
>
>

Consider that Wyschnegradsky was into "omnichromaticism" and that he wrote
for sixthtone pianos, as well as a 31-tET organ in Haarlem. It seems to me that
the "bi" is a halving of 12.

best, Johnny

hi Johnny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> In a message dated 12/18/03 12:15:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jpehrson@r... writes:
>
>
> > Personally, I don't like the term "chromatic..."
> > Certainly not associated with 12-tET. Lots of things
> > are "chromatic"... anything with "color," I would imagine... :)
> >
> > Joseph Pehrson
> >
>
> And yet, quartertones are called bichromatic by Wyschnegradsky.
> Johnny

AFAIK, the first use of the term "bichromatic" to refer
to quarter-tones was by Willi Moellendorf in 1917:

http://tonalsoft.com/monzo/moellendorf/book/contents.htm

Wyschnegradsky got his ideas from Moellendorf. i believe
that W attended M's lecture in Vienna in 1917.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/18/03 12:15:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jpehrson@r... writes:
>
>
> > Personally, I don't like the term "chromatic..." Certainly not
> > associated with 12-tET. Lots of things are "chromatic"...
anything
> > with "color," I would imagine... :)
> >
> > Joseph Pehrson
> >
>
> And yet, quartertones are called bichromatic by Wyschnegradsky.
Johnny

That would make a good name for a Harley-Davidson dealer.

Seriously though, it does indicate that Ms/Mr Wyschnegradsky
regards "chromatic" as specifically indicating 12-tone 8ves.

Peter

hi Peter (and Johnny),

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Wakefield Sault" <sault@c...>
wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> >
> > And yet, quartertones are called bichromatic by Wyschnegradsky.
> Johnny
>
>
> That would make a good name for a Harley-Davidson dealer.
>
> Seriously though, it does indicate that Ms/Mr Wyschnegradsky
> regards "chromatic" as specifically indicating 12-tone 8ves.
>
> Peter

it's *Mr* Ivan Wyschnegradsky. this is the most common
spelling for his last name; there are variations, since
it is a transliteration from the Russian Cyrillic alphabet.

Wyschnegradsky advocated 72edo (that's "72 equal divisions
of the octave", or 72-tone equal-temperament if you prefer),
and wrote theoretical abstracts on various subset tunings
of 72edo, such as 24edo (1/4-tones), 36edo (1/6-tones),
and 48edo (1/8-tones), as well as the whole 72edo superset.

(Johnny already knows this ... in fact, he's the person
who lent me Wyschnegradsky's book.)

REFERENCE
---------

Wyschnegradsky, Ivan.
_La loi de la pansonorité_.
Paris, 1946.
Reedition by Franck Jedrzejewski (ed.),
Éditions Contrechamps,
Genève, 1996, 331 pages.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> Wyschnegradsky advocated 72edo (that's "72 equal divisions
> of the octave", or 72-tone equal-temperament if you prefer),
> and wrote theoretical abstracts on various subset tunings
> of 72edo, such as 24edo (1/4-tones), 36edo (1/6-tones),
> and 48edo (1/8-tones), as well as the whole 72edo superset.
>
>
> (Johnny already knows this ... in fact, he's the person
> who lent me Wyschnegradsky's book.)
>
>
>
> REFERENCE
> ---------
>
> Wyschnegradsky, Ivan.
> _La loi de la pansonorité_.
> Paris, 1946.
> Reedition by Franck Jedrzejewski (ed.),
> Éditions Contrechamps,
> Genève, 1996, 331 pages.

actually, IIRC, Wyschnegradsky explores every possible
evenly-divided subset of 72edo, which are the following:

edo
2 = tritone
3 = augmented triad
4 = diminished 7th tetrad
6 = whole tones
8 = 3/4-tones
9 = 2/3-tones
12 = 1/2-tones (semitones)
18 = 1/3-tones (third-tones)
24 = 1/4-tones (quarter-tones)
36 = 1/6-tones (sixth-tones)
72 = 1/12-tones (twelfth-tones)

i give a listing like this on my 72edo page:
http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/72edo.htm

Alois Haba does a similar examination in his
_Neue Harmonielehre_.

Haba and Wyschnegradsky both got their ideas from
Willi Moellendorf, who only explored 24edo but was
the real pioneer here.

http://www.tonalsoft.com/monzo/moellendorf/book/contents.htm

if my memory is incorrect about Wyschnegradsky,
Johnny has his book and can check it.

Neue Harmonielehre des diatonischen, chromatischen, viertel-, drittel-
, sechstel-, und zwöftel-tonsystems ['New harmony-textbook of the
diatonic, chromatic (12-ET), quarter- (24-ET), third- (18-ET), sixth-
(36-ET), and twelfth-tone (72-ET) systems'].

-monz

argh! damn Yahoo web interface ... i wasn't finished with
this and it got sent early.

here's the full citation for Haba's book:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> Alois Haba does a similar examination in his
> _Neue Harmonielehre_.

Neue Harmonielehre des diatonischen, chromatischen, viertel-,
drittel-, sechstel-, und zwöftel-tonsystems

.

REFERENCE
---------

Hába, Alois. 1925.
_Harmonické základy ctvrttónové soustavy_.

German translation by the author:
_Neue Harmonielehre des diatonischen, chromatischen Viertel-,
Drittel-, Sechstel- und Zwölftel-tonsystems.
['New harmony-textbook of the diatonic, chromatic (12-ET),
quarter- (24-ET), third- (18-ET), sixth- (36-ET), and
twelfth-tone (72-ET) systems']
Fr. Kistner & C.F.W. Siegel, Leipzig, 1927.
reprint: Universal, Wien, 1978.

Revised by: Erich Steinhard,
Grundfragen der mikrotonalen Musik; Bd. 3,
Musikedition Nymphenburg 2001,
Filmkunst-Musikverlag, München, 251 pages.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_50027.html#50188

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > Wyschnegradsky advocated 72edo (that's "72 equal divisions
> > of the octave", or 72-tone equal-temperament if you prefer),
> > and wrote theoretical abstracts on various subset tunings
> > of 72edo, such as 24edo (1/4-tones), 36edo (1/6-tones),
> > and 48edo (1/8-tones), as well as the whole 72edo superset.
> >
> >
> > (Johnny already knows this ... in fact, he's the person
> > who lent me Wyschnegradsky's book.)
> >

***This is fascinating, Monz. I'd forgotten that 72-tET was
Wyschnegradsky's main impetus...

Joe P.