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The Dharma at Big Sur

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

11/1/2003 4:43:06 PM

Hello, Tuning mavens,

I've read only superficial (though mostly glowing) reviews of John Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur, premiered by the LA Phil last week at the Disney Center. Most of the articles focused on the building, predictably enough, and no one mentioned anything about the work's alleged JI tuning, or the success of the performance in that respect. Did anyone here attend? Has anyone heard anything about it? Has JA truly joined the JI ranks?

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/1/2003 4:59:55 PM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> predictably enough, and no one mentioned anything about the work's
> alleged JI tuning, or the success of the performance in that respect.
> Did anyone here attend? Has anyone heard anything about it? Has JA
> truly joined the JI ranks?

I don't know if it has already played, but the "Great Performances" series just broadcast this past Weds eve a show that was a condensation of the three opening concert events, each a differing program. Adams was interviewed in part, showed a bit of rehearsal (with admissions of chaos), and then about 4-5 minutes of the performance.

The soloist, Terry (lastname), was placed in an odd position: standing near the back of the fiddles. Hey, anywhere in the building looks cool, but I watched as the cameral followed percussionists playing glockenspiel and almglocken passages, and I am certain that these were standard 12tet instruments. The segment was brief, but while the 'improvised' lines of the soloist evoked a differing intonation, there wasn't anything that I heard that sounded significantly different from Adam's other works. But this was the end of the piece, and there may have been calmer sections in the opening (I believe it nears 30 minutes in length) that may have lent themselves to a more honest attempt at JI.

I know people who attended, but I don't think they know enough about intonation to evaluate for us. Guess we'll have to wait for a recording to judge for ourselves.

I'm going to see Rattle/Berlin @ Disney in November playing Bartok, so it was nice to see the hall in advance...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@interport.net>

11/1/2003 5:31:04 PM

I caught that "great performances" show. The Adams excerpt was miniscule, so
its hard to say much of anything about it. The cheesy electric violin player
did not sound too impressive though. On the other hand, I would have given
the metaphorical left nut to have heard the whole of the Lutaslowski cello
concerto with Yoyo ma, based on the last two minutes that they aired. Simply
amazing performance. They did show the whole rite of spring. Its been a long
time since I've listened to that whole piece straight through. Part 1 still
remains one of the most intense orchestral pieces ever written, from first
note to last. The second part is a bit of a letdown, but still has some good
parts. I can only imagine what this must have sounded like to people at the
premiere- no wonder there was a riot! It still sounds avant-garde today! I
liked the concept of the John Williams piece, with the taped "responses" of
the hall, but the composition didn't really work so well (to my ears
anyway). The hall is way cool looking, and I was happy to see them pushing
the envelope with the programming, like the Lutaslowski, instead of lapsing
back into beethoven or mahler. All in all, an interesting program.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Szanto [mailto:JSZANTO@ADNC.COM]
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 8:00 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: The Dharma at Big Sur
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> > predictably enough, and no one mentioned anything about the work's
> > alleged JI tuning, or the success of the performance in that respect.
> > Did anyone here attend? Has anyone heard anything about it? Has JA
> > truly joined the JI ranks?
>
> I don't know if it has already played, but the "Great
> Performances" series just broadcast this past Weds eve a show
> that was a condensation of the three opening concert events, each
> a differing program. Adams was interviewed in part, showed a bit
> of rehearsal (with admissions of chaos), and then about 4-5
> minutes of the performance.
>
> The soloist, Terry (lastname), was placed in an odd position:
> standing near the back of the fiddles. Hey, anywhere in the
> building looks cool, but I watched as the cameral followed
> percussionists playing glockenspiel and almglocken passages, and
> I am certain that these were standard 12tet instruments. The
> segment was brief, but while the 'improvised' lines of the
> soloist evoked a differing intonation, there wasn't anything that
> I heard that sounded significantly different from Adam's other
> works. But this was the end of the piece, and there may have been
> calmer sections in the opening (I believe it nears 30 minutes in
> length) that may have lent themselves to a more honest attempt at JI.
>
> I know people who attended, but I don't think they know enough
> about intonation to evaluate for us. Guess we'll have to wait for
> a recording to judge for ourselves.
>
> I'm going to see Rattle/Berlin @ Disney in November playing
> Bartok, so it was nice to see the hall in advance...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
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🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

11/1/2003 6:28:37 PM

On Saturday 01 November 2003 07:31 pm, Dante Rosati wrote:
> I caught that "great performances" show. The Adams excerpt was miniscule,
> so its hard to say much of anything about it. The cheesy electric violin
> player did not sound too impressive though. On the other hand, I would have
> given the metaphorical left nut to have heard the whole of the Lutaslowski
> cello concerto with Yoyo ma, based on the last two minutes that they aired.
> Simply amazing performance. They did show the whole rite of spring. Its
> been a long time since I've listened to that whole piece straight through.
> Part 1 still remains one of the most intense orchestral pieces ever
> written, from first note to last. The second part is a bit of a letdown,
> but still has some good parts.

Wrong, wrong, wrong....'Le Sacre' is perfect all the way through. Maybe you've
not heard the Pierre Boulez/Cleveland recording!! If I write a piece in my
life about that length, but a tenth as good on a 'subjective scale', I'll die
a happy man.

Or, in the electronic, microtonal realm, anything approaching "Beauty in the
Beast" of Wendy Carlos...

Cheers,
Aaron.

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@interport.net>

11/1/2003 6:44:23 PM

haha! Of course you're right Aaron- compared to Igor the Great I am an
amoeba, so its ridiculous for me to "diss" part II. Nevertheless, I still
think the whole is unbalanced- its like he put most of the good stuff in
part I, then said "oops, I need to make it twice as long!". And yes, I grew
up listening to Boulez' recording.

BTW- speaking of John Williams, I always liked the way he ripped off the
opening of Part II to use in Star Wars in the scene where the droids are
wandering in the desert. Always steal from the best, i say.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aaron K. Johnson [mailto:akjmicro@comcast.net]
> Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 9:29 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Stravinsky's 'Rite'--( Was: The Dharma at Big Sur)
>
>
> On Saturday 01 November 2003 07:31 pm, Dante Rosati wrote:
> > I caught that "great performances" show. The Adams excerpt was
> miniscule,
> > so its hard to say much of anything about it. The cheesy electric violin
> > player did not sound too impressive though. On the other hand,
> I would have
> > given the metaphorical left nut to have heard the whole of the
> Lutaslowski
> > cello concerto with Yoyo ma, based on the last two minutes that
> they aired.
> > Simply amazing performance. They did show the whole rite of spring. Its
> > been a long time since I've listened to that whole piece
> straight through.
> > Part 1 still remains one of the most intense orchestral pieces ever
> > written, from first note to last. The second part is a bit of a letdown,
> > but still has some good parts.
>
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong....'Le Sacre' is perfect all the way through.
> Maybe you've
> not heard the Pierre Boulez/Cleveland recording!! If I write a
> piece in my
> life about that length, but a tenth as good on a 'subjective
> scale', I'll die
> a happy man.
>
> Or, in the electronic, microtonal realm, anything approaching
> "Beauty in the
> Beast" of Wendy Carlos...
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron.
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/1/2003 9:14:09 PM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:
> The hall is way cool looking, and I was happy to see them pushing
> the envelope with the programming, like the Lutaslowski, instead of lapsing
> back into beethoven or mahler. All in all, an interesting program.

I'm really looking forward to seeing/hearing the hall, being an architecture nut as well. As for the programming, Esa-Pekka is literally about as cutting edge as one can find in a conductor, and not in the TV show but on that same concert was his own "LA Variations", which is a very, very nice piece for orchestra on any level, and especially when he wrote it to focus on, and feature, his own resident orchestra. If you get a chance to hear it, you might want to...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/1/2003 9:18:05 PM

Aaron,

I'll just stand somewhere between you and Dante, and consider "Rite" as an almost-perfect piece (since it is all just personal opinion, I happen to think that "The Soldier's Tale" is more of a gem...).

But spare me *any* Boulez performance - bloodless. Sorry, I have many other performances I'd much rather hear, and I've seen Mo. Boulez on at least 4 occasions conducting live.

Lastly, one hasn't truly lived a proper and full life until one has the chance to play the bass drum part in "Rite"! :)

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@interport.net>

11/1/2003 10:28:39 PM

> I'll just stand somewhere between you and Dante, and consider
> "Rite" as an almost-perfect piece (since it is all just personal
> opinion, I happen to think that "The Soldier's Tale" is more of a gem...).

More immortal scribblings, to be sure! I even think "The Rake's Progress"
has an effulgent nimbus around it.

Dante

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>

11/2/2003 4:06:15 AM

on 2/11/03 05:18, Jon Szanto at JSZANTO@ADNC.COM wrote:

> Lastly, one hasn't truly lived a proper and full life until one has the chance
> to play the bass drum part in "Rite"! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>

Hi Jon

Is that the bit that goes "boom boom boom"? : - )

Seriously though I'd like to put a new JI piece (absolutely no 12 tet) on
microtonal.org, about 4 meg worth. If that's OK please let me know how best
to proceed. It's an electronic version of a piece for brass and mixed chorus
realised with the amazing z3ta+.

Sincerely
a.m.

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

11/2/2003 6:30:30 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48298.html#48300

and I was happy to see them pushing
> the envelope with the programming, like the Lutaslowski, instead of
lapsing
> back into beethoven or mahler. All in all, an interesting program.
>
> Dante
>

"Lutoslawaki".... just being a nudge....(or is that noodge... :)

http://www.schirmer.com/composers/lutoslawski/bio.html

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

11/2/2003 6:35:57 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>

/tuning/topicId_48298.html#48301

wrote:
> On Saturday 01 November 2003 07:31 pm, Dante Rosati wrote:
> > I caught that "great performances" show. The Adams excerpt was
miniscule,
> > so its hard to say much of anything about it. The cheesy electric
violin
> > player did not sound too impressive though. On the other hand, I
would have
> > given the metaphorical left nut to have heard the whole of the
Lutaslowski
> > cello concerto with Yoyo ma, based on the last two minutes that
they aired.
> > Simply amazing performance. They did show the whole rite of
spring. Its
> > been a long time since I've listened to that whole piece straight
through.
> > Part 1 still remains one of the most intense orchestral pieces
ever
> > written, from first note to last. The second part is a bit of a
letdown,
> > but still has some good parts.
>
>
> Wrong, wrong, wrong....'Le Sacre' is perfect all the way through.
Maybe you've
> not heard the Pierre Boulez/Cleveland recording!! If I write a
piece in my
> life about that length, but a tenth as good on a 'subjective
scale', I'll die
> a happy man.
>
> Or, in the electronic, microtonal realm, anything
approaching "Beauty in the
> Beast" of Wendy Carlos...
>
> Cheers,
> Aaron.

***This is getting OT, unless Le Sacre is in "alternate tuning"
(probably it is the way most ensembles play it) but I *also*
*personally* agree with Dante that the first part of Le Sacre is the
most riveting...

HOWEVER, the last section is frequently cited as the most "important"
(cough, cough) part of the work, due to the way that the rhythms are
interspersed...

P.S. Just as an aside, when I was at the Eastman School of Music Le
Sacre was frequently dumped on.... one of several things I didn't
like about Eastman...

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

11/2/2003 6:37:03 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48298.html#48302

> haha! Of course you're right Aaron- compared to Igor the Great I am
an
> amoeba, so its ridiculous for me to "diss" part II. Nevertheless, I
still
> think the whole is unbalanced- its like he put most of the good
stuff in
> part I, then said "oops, I need to make it twice as long!". And
yes, I grew
> up listening to Boulez' recording.
>
> BTW- speaking of John Williams, I always liked the way he ripped
off the
> opening of Part II to use in Star Wars in the scene where the
droids are
> wandering in the desert. Always steal from the best, i say.
>
> Dante
>

***And his memorial to the victims of Sept. 11 was the *only* such
tribute I've liked. Totally ingenious (I heard it on the radio...)

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

11/2/2003 6:38:27 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48298.html#48304

>
> Lastly, one hasn't truly lived a proper and full life until one has
the chance to play the bass drum part in "Rite"! :)
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

***heh... yeah, right... "good luck" as they might say... :)

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

11/2/2003 6:41:32 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48298.html#48305

>
> > I'll just stand somewhere between you and Dante, and consider
> > "Rite" as an almost-perfect piece (since it is all just personal
> > opinion, I happen to think that "The Soldier's Tale" is more of a
gem...).
>
> More immortal scribblings, to be sure! I even think "The Rake's
Progress"
> has an effulgent nimbus around it.
>
> Dante

***Getting back to composing and *TUNING*, I recall that Stravinsky
always said that he was quite content with his 12-tET notes and
didn't need any more than a set of 12. However, his piano (Kraig
Grady backs this up) was egregiously out of tune, and he *wanted* it
this way... so undoubtedly he was thinking and playing in something
other than 12-equal... :)

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

11/2/2003 7:44:52 AM

On Saturday 01 November 2003 11:18 pm, Jon Szanto wrote:
> Aaron,
>
> I'll just stand somewhere between you and Dante, and consider "Rite" as an
> almost-perfect piece (since it is all just personal opinion, I happen to
> think that "The Soldier's Tale" is more of a gem...).

Ok, then! I don't get it, personally. I find the whole of the Rite a
masterpiece. It's like that stupid idea that was going around for a while
that Beethoven's 9th was a masterpiece minus the over-the-top finale!
Over the top was the point, I believe!

> But spare me *any* Boulez performance - bloodless. Sorry, I have many other
> performances I'd much rather hear, and I've seen Mo. Boulez on at least 4
> occasions conducting live.

'sang froid' is an essential ingredient to Stravinsky, IMO, esp. if you can
balance it with balls. I think Boulez does, but that's me.

I don't like Boulez's music, OTOH (what I've heard--admittedly a small
amount). But he has incredible ears, and knows, like Fritz Reiner did, how to
make an orchestra transparent. And you could take perfect dictation from his
performance, while they are also not overly mechanical.

> Lastly, one hasn't truly lived a proper and full life until one has the
> chance to play the bass drum part in "Rite"! :)

I'm sure!

> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

11/2/2003 10:03:22 AM

>
> From: "Dante Rosati" <dante@interport.net>
> Subject: RE: Re: The Dharma at Big Sur

The Joffrey does a restaging of the original choreography that is truly impressive and is quite provoking in the context of traditional ballet. i think this has alot to do with the roiting, which was rather in fad at the time.
My record collection , which i still has has the property of haveing more stravinsky and miles records than any individual. The suite from The song of the nightinggale has for me more interesting use of orchestra instruments in that it is harder for me to tell exactly what they are. Les Noces are never get tired of. the ritew has always been a dissapointment in that it is completely non visual for me. Boelez when i have A/b him right next to other conductors is greatly overrated. the Barenboim is exceptional good as is his Sym. of Psalms.
I know this has nothing to do with John Adams and JI . I imagine aAdams JI is in the same catagory as Iraq's WMD. Only existing for the press

>
> They did show the whole rite of spring. Its been a long
> time since I've listened to that whole piece straight through. Part 1 still
> remains one of the most intense orchestral pieces ever written, from first
> note to last. The second part is a bit of a letdown, but still has some good
> parts. I can only imagine what this must have sounded like to people at the
> premiere- no wonder there was a riot! It still sounds avant-garde today!

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

11/2/2003 12:07:14 PM

Regarding Johns Adams' alleged new work which uses just intonation, or is
alleged to:

On Sunday 02 November 2003 12:03 pm, kraig grady wrote:
> I imagine [John] Adams JI is in the same catagory as Iraq's
> WMD. Only existing for the press.

I love that quote!!! Way to go, Kraig!

-AKJ

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

11/2/2003 9:16:12 PM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante@i...> wrote:

> More immortal scribblings, to be sure! I even think "The Rake's
Progress"
> has an effulgent nimbus around it.

I like the Rake better than the Soldier, but that's just me.

🔗Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@earthlink.net>

11/3/2003 10:48:22 PM

Hi All,

I recorded the live concert off off the radio. The FM reception here in Westwood isn't ideal because of tall buildings everywhere but you can still hear the piece. It left several of us wishing for more melodic writing. Some of the reviews I glimpsed at in the Wall Street Journal? were scathing . . . something about a mid-life crisis?

I recorded it to a CD so if you email me privately I'll send out a limited number of copies. The whole concert was actually pretty daring. Salonen's "L.A. Variation", Yo-Yo Ma and Lutaslowsky's Cello Concerto, the John Adams and Revueltas. Because I recorded some useless opening night commentary and clapping I wasn't able to get all four pieces onto one CD. Easiest on me if you just want one cut, say the John Adams.

I thought this was a milestone for LA and for JI movement in the US. Definitely high profile and a competent piece. I don't get the feeling that he has much experience with the JI medium though.

I friend of mine fared a lot better, recording the Rite of Spring the night before (opening night of the Walt Disney Concert Hall in Los Angeles.) Listening to it was a revelation that sticks with you for a long time. Flawless performance. I'll have to secure a copy.

--rt

Dante Rosati wrote:

>I caught that "great performances" show. The Adams excerpt was miniscule, so
>its hard to say much of anything about it. The cheesy electric violin player
>did not sound too impressive though. On the other hand, I would have given
>the metaphorical left nut to have heard the whole of the Lutaslowski cello
>concerto with Yoyo ma, based on the last two minutes that they aired. Simply
>amazing performance. They did show the whole rite of spring. Its been a long
>time since I've listened to that whole piece straight through. Part 1 still
>remains one of the most intense orchestral pieces ever written, from first
>note to last. The second part is a bit of a letdown, but still has some good
>parts. I can only imagine what this must have sounded like to people at the
>premiere- no wonder there was a riot! It still sounds avant-garde today! I
>liked the concept of the John Williams piece, with the taped "responses" of
>the hall, but the composition didn't really work so well (to my ears
>anyway). The hall is way cool looking, and I was happy to see them pushing
>the envelope with the programming, like the Lutaslowski, instead of lapsing
>back into beethoven or mahler. All in all, an interesting program.
>
>Dante
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Jon Szanto [mailto:JSZANTO@ADNC.COM]
>>Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 8:00 PM
>>To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
>>Subject: [tuning] Re: The Dharma at Big Sur
>>
>>
>>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
>>
>>>predictably enough, and no one mentioned anything about the work's
>>>alleged JI tuning, or the success of the performance in that respect.
>>>Did anyone here attend? Has anyone heard anything about it? Has JA
>>>truly joined the JI ranks?
>>>
>>I don't know if it has already played, but the "Great
>>Performances" series just broadcast this past Weds eve a show
>>that was a condensation of the three opening concert events, each
>>a differing program. Adams was interviewed in part, showed a bit
>>of rehearsal (with admissions of chaos), and then about 4-5
>>minutes of the performance.
>>
>>The soloist, Terry (lastname), was placed in an odd position:
>>standing near the back of the fiddles. Hey, anywhere in the
>>building looks cool, but I watched as the cameral followed
>>percussionists playing glockenspiel and almglocken passages, and
>>I am certain that these were standard 12tet instruments. The
>>segment was brief, but while the 'improvised' lines of the
>>soloist evoked a differing intonation, there wasn't anything that
>>I heard that sounded significantly different from Adam's other
>>works. But this was the end of the piece, and there may have been
>>calmer sections in the opening (I believe it nears 30 minutes in
>>length) that may have lent themselves to a more honest attempt at JI.
>>
>>I know people who attended, but I don't think they know enough
>>about intonation to evaluate for us. Guess we'll have to wait for
>>a recording to judge for ourselves.
>>
>>I'm going to see Rattle/Berlin @ Disney in November playing
>>Bartok, so it was nice to see the hall in advance...
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Jon
>>
>>
>>
>>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
>>email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
>> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
>> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
>> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
>>on hold for the tuning group.
>> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
>>daily digest mode.
>> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
>>individual emails.
>> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
>
>
>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
>email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
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🔗Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@earthlink.net>

11/4/2003 9:58:17 PM

I found the review in the L.A. Times 10/29/03. It reads in part:

For visitors, "Dharma," a concerto for electric violin, was one instance of real controversy. Joshua Kosman, in the San Francisco Chronicle, thought it vaporous and long-winded despite moments of beauty. In the New York Times, Anthony Tommasini suggested that the balance between soloist and orchestra could have been fixed in two minutes during rehersal. Susan Elliott, on Musical America's respected industry Web site, dismissed the work as a musical midlife crisis, describing it as ranging from "crashingly dull to downright annoying."

I loved it. Sure, the violin may have been a bit loud, and there is no question of its grungy timbre, but that was part of the attraction. Adams wrote this piece as a reflection of his adopted state, under the spell of Beat writer Jack Kerouac and composers Lou Harrison and Terry Riley.

"Write outwards swimming in sea of language to peripheral release and exhaustion." Kerouac once wrote of his spontaneous prose style. "Dharma" is a tribute to that, to the influence of Indian thought on the Beats and on Harrison and Riley. Written for jazz violinist Tracy Silverman, the score is an extension of the long sitar-inspired violin lines in Adams' celebrated Violin Concerto, but it is also fresh and new in its sustained languorous beatitude.

Last season, Adams behaved himself writing his Sept. 11 memorial, "On the Transmigration of Souls," for the New York Philharmonic, and nostalgia got the better of him in "My Father Knew Charles Ives" for the San Francisco Symphony. But in "Dharma," he lets his defenses down. California is now home, and more than ever before, the new work makes him one of us. With Silverman's raucously amazing electric violin, with Salonen getting the Philharmonic to glitter like Kerouac's "jewel center of interest," "Dharma" breathed real life into Disney.

This hall is being almost universally hailed as a modern masterpiece, and there is no question that modern music suts it and it suits modern music. . . . .

🔗Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@earthlink.net>

11/4/2003 10:32:51 PM

I found Susan Elliott's review after subscribing to a 14-day free trial to Musical America

Opening Night No. 2: 'Living in L.A.'
By Susan Elliott
MusicalAmerica.com
October 28, 2003

LOS ANGELES - Oct. 24, Night Two of the thre opening-night concerts at Walt Disney Concert Hall. ,<snip>

As a longtime fan of John Adams' music, I can only conclude that this latest oeuvre signifies some sort of mid-life crisis, a need to be hip, perhaps. He wrote the piece for electric violinist Tracy Silverman, whose loud meanderings over the orchestra ranged from crashingly dull to downright annoying. The whole, 25-minute exercise reminded me of a "pops" concert, where the orchestra is essentially a backup band with "singing strings," and the vocalist is out front embellishing self-important fillips of little or no musical interest.

Toward the end of the work, Silverman backed off sufficiently to reveal some of the luscious color Adams had provided for the orchestra. Too bad the LA Philharmonic had to wait that long to shine on a work it had commissioned for the opening of its glorious new hall. Fortunately, the evening's closer left a better taste in the mouth. Dated and derivative though "Sensemayï¿½" may be, it complimented its proponents' strengths to fun, colorful effect. A fittingly rigorous and celebratory conclusion.

🔗Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@earthlink.net>

11/4/2003 10:44:30 PM

[SF Gate] <http://www.sfgate.com/>
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L.A. Philharmonic's opening notes worthy of glorious new Disney Hall

Joshua Kosman, Chronicle Music Critic <mailto:jkosman@sfchronicle.com> Monday, October 27, 2003
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[Click to View] <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/2003/10/27/dd_disney02.jpg&paper=chronicle&file=DD188388.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/27&type=entertainment> [Click to View] <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/2003/10/27/dd_disney03.jpg&paper=chronicle&file=DD188388.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/27&type=entertainment> [Click to View] <http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/2003/10/27/dd_disney01.jpg&paper=chronicle&file=DD188388.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/2003/10/27&type=entertainment> Los Angeles -- The opening ceremonies for Walt Disney Concert Hall, the Los Angeles Philharmonic's magnificent new home, concluded over the weekend with a musical celebration of California in its mottled entirety: hippies to the north, Hollywood to the south and a helping of multiculturalism throughout.

With concerts on Friday and Saturday night, the orchestra and music director Esa-Pekka Salonen put the seal on a triumphant performance triptych that began Thursday with the hall's official opening. The programming was designed to show off not only architect Frank Gehry's remarkable new $274 million creation -- an exuberant, acoustically sumptuous palace of swirling steel and wood -- but also the virtuosity, stylistic flexibility and personality of the orchestra.

It succeeded beautifully on all counts.

The centerpiece of Friday's contemporary-music program was the world premiere of "The Dharma at Big Sur," a blissed-out Golden State reverie commissioned for the occasion from composer John Adams. There was also more bracing fare by Witold Lutoslawski, Silvestre Revueltas and Salonen himself.

On Saturday the orchestra, with help from guest conductor John Williams and a handful of cinematic celebrities, paid tribute to some of the classic film music of the past 70 years, including works by such masters as Max Steiner, Alfred Newman, Elmer Bernstein and Bernard Herrmann.

Taken in tandem with Thursday's opener, the evenings added up to a beguiling snapshot of musical life in the Southland -- venturesome, swaggering and ready to embrace whatever cultural developments may be passing through.

In addition to its own extravagant charms, at once noble and puppyish, Disney Hall reveals anew the strength and resilience that this orchestra has attained under Salonen's leadership.

Throughout these three nights, from the aggressive cross-rhythms of Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" to the lush string textures of Newman's score for "Wuthering Heights," one kept coming back to the splendor of the orchestral playing -- the lithe solidity of the string playing, the clarity and urgency of the brass.

Those qualities came through most persuasively in Friday's opener, Salonen's extraordinary "L.A. Variations." Written for the orchestra in 1996, this virtuoso showpiece has become a calling card of sorts for both composer and orchestra, and the reasons are obvious.

In the course of 19 minutes of dense, witty and vivaciously exciting music, Salonen swivels the spotlight onto each section and each member of the orchestra, inspiring them to ever-greater feats of rhythmic and instrumental execution. The range of colors, textures and dramatic moods is remarkable; the puckish ending is a memorable gem.

In contrast to hard-driven intensity of Salonen's score, Adams' new work, inspired by the writings of Jack Kerouac and the music of California icons Lou Harrison and Terry Riley, is laid-back to a fault. The piece has moments of beauty -- particularly the ravishing sunrise of the first few pages -- but on the whole it struck me as a vaporous and (at nearly half an hour) long-winded affair, an orchestral spin-off of the composer's noodly "Hoodoo Zephyr."

The work's soloist and muse is violinist Tracy Silverman, whose improvisatory classical-jazz fusion, played on an electric six-string instrument of his own devising, piqued Adams' interest. It's easy to see why; the sounds he produces, with their bent notes and sinuous phrases, are both piercing and poignant.

But "The Dharma at Big Sur" strings those phrases across long expanses that don't change much or -- until the boisterous Rossinian crescendo that brings the piece to an improbable conclusion -- even do much. Though the solo part is fully composed, it might as well be improvised as it shambles along.

Pleasures of a more abrasive sort came courtesy of cellist Yo-Yo Ma, who joined the orchestra for a punchy, cantankerously elegant performance of Lutoslawski's 1970 Cello Concerto, and the program concluded with Revueltas' "Sensemaya," the Mexican master's classic little essay in tautly coiled rhythms.

Saturday's program began with another commissioned world premiere, this one from Williams. "Soundings," a gleaming, industrialized 14-minute essay, took pains to celebrate the new hall, especially in an electronic section that sent the sounds of a flute ensemble bouncing around the room, Tinkerbell-fashion.

Williams and Salonen then traded conducting duties as the orchestra went through a whirlwind history of film music, from Steiner's wonderfully pictorial 1933 score for "King Kong" to Bernstein's Coplandesque "The Magnificent Seven" and Herrmann's powerful music for "Vertigo."

There were some spoken introductions by Steven Spielberg, Tom Hanks and Catherine Zeta-Jones -- delivered in the semi-robotic TelePrompTer cadences familiar from so many Oscar ceremonies -- as well as a handful of movie songs.

Most amazing, naturally, was the incomparable Audra McDonald, who brought down the house with "10,432 Sheep," a Jule Styne-Sammy Cahn novelty about love- induced insomnia drawn from a 1951 Doris Day flick titled "The West Point Story." She also delivered a thrillingly direct account of Henry Mancini's "Two for the Road."

Brian Stokes Mitchell's muzzy rendition of David Raksin's "Laura" was hard to make out, but Josh Groban's quavery, out-of-tune botch of "An Affair to Remember" unfortunately came through all too clearly.

E-mail Joshua Kosman at jkosman@sfchronicle.com <mailto:jkosman@sfchronicle.com>

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Rick Tagawa wrote:

>I found Susan Elliott's review after subscribing to a 14-day free trial >to Musical America
>
>
>Opening Night No. 2: 'Living in L.A.'
>By Susan Elliott
>MusicalAmerica.com
>October 28, 2003
>
>LOS ANGELES - Oct. 24, Night Two of the thre opening-night concerts at >Walt Disney Concert Hall. ,<snip>
>
>As a longtime fan of John Adams' music, I can only conclude that this >latest oeuvre signifies some sort of mid-life crisis, a need to be hip, >perhaps. He wrote the piece for electric violinist Tracy Silverman, >whose loud meanderings over the orchestra ranged from crashingly dull to >downright annoying. The whole, 25-minute exercise reminded me of a >"pops" concert, where the orchestra is essentially a backup band with >"singing strings," and the vocalist is out front embellishing >self-important fillips of little or no musical interest.
>
>Toward the end of the work, Silverman backed off sufficiently to reveal >some of the luscious color Adams had provided for the orchestra. Too bad >the LA Philharmonic had to wait that long to shine on a work it had >commissioned for the opening of its glorious new hall. Fortunately, the >evening's closer left a better taste in the mouth. Dated and derivative >though "Sensemayï¿½" may be, it complimented its proponents' strengths to >fun, colorful effect. A fittingly rigorous and celebratory conclusion.
>
>
>
>
>You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

11/6/2003 8:13:17 PM

Hey guys,

This is expressly for your ears only. But a critic who knows someone in the LA Phil sent me what is supposedly the inside dope on John Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur. Apparently the piece was finished "too late" to rehearse the JI tuning - which I translate to mean that the piece got no more rehearsal than most new orchestra pieces get - and it was quickly adjusted back to 12tet. The question is, will anyone ever pick the piece up in the tuning that was intended?

True or not true, it reinforces my long-held opinion that nothing in my profession could be more Quixotic, more masochistic, than writing an alternative-tuning orchestra piece. I once heard a very well-intentioned, nobly rehearsed performance of Ben Johnston's JI Symphony, and the out-of-tuneness was pitiful.

Cheers regardless,

Kyle

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/7/2003 12:02:32 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> True or not true, it reinforces my long-held opinion that nothing in
> my profession could be more Quixotic, more masochistic, than writing
> an alternative-tuning orchestra piece. I once heard a very
> well-intentioned, nobly rehearsed performance of Ben Johnston's JI
> Symphony, and the out-of-tuneness was pitiful.

I can only second Kyle's sentiments. While I don't play in one of the "Big Five" orchestras in the US (not to mention the great orchestras in other contries), but I *have* played for the last 25 years in what is called a "major" orchestra, based on length of season and annual budget. Not to mention my many colleagues that *are* (now) in the bigger orchestras, and I honestly do believe that Kyle is spot on.

Think, for a minute, of the travails that Joe Pehrson has had just finding *single* performers to play in non-12tet for his pieces. Think of the years of putting together small ensembles that Johnny Reinhard has done. Is *any* of this taught in the conservatories that train the musicians that populate the orchestras that work the halls that play the concerts for living humans these days?

No.

The transformance, in the Western world, from a life in 12tet to something more all-embracing is going to certainly come, if come it does, by guerilla warfare, by insidious infiltration, by flash-mob mentality as evidenced in both composers and (young) performers, and by a complete cultural shift in the audience that celebrates change, chance, and freshness over comfort, 'culture', and the common.

It will not happen in my lifetime, and I have resigned myself to making intonational inroads *outside* of my current/chosen profession. I still believe in what I do, I still strive as hard as humanly possible to make every single f***ing note I ever play as musical as I can, and then I come home and work in the other world, the other language, the other mindset.

It will not happen on the symphony orchestra concert stage, which is most probably all for the good. Too much baggage.

You think otherwise? Show me why, and back it up.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

11/7/2003 3:38:14 AM

on 11/7/03 12:02 AM, Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
>> True or not true, it reinforces my long-held opinion that nothing in
>> my profession could be more Quixotic, more masochistic, than writing
>> an alternative-tuning orchestra piece. I once heard a very
>> well-intentioned, nobly rehearsed performance of Ben Johnston's JI
>> Symphony, and the out-of-tuneness was pitiful.
>
> I can only second Kyle's sentiments. While I don't play in one of the "Big
> Five" orchestras in the US (not to mention the great orchestras in other
> contries), but I *have* played for the last 25 years in what is called a
> "major" orchestra, based on length of season and annual budget. Not to mention
> my many colleagues that *are* (now) in the bigger orchestras, and I honestly
> do believe that Kyle is spot on.
>
> Think, for a minute, of the travails that Joe Pehrson has had just finding
> *single* performers to play in non-12tet for his pieces. Think of the years of
> putting together small ensembles that Johnny Reinhard has done. Is *any* of
> this taught in the conservatories that train the musicians that populate the
> orchestras that work the halls that play the concerts for living humans these
> days?
>
> No.
>
> The transformance, in the Western world, from a life in 12tet to something
> more all-embracing is going to certainly come, if come it does, by guerilla
> warfare, by insidious infiltration, by flash-mob mentality as evidenced in
> both composers and (young) performers, and by a complete cultural shift in the
> audience that celebrates change, chance, and freshness over comfort,
> 'culture', and the common.
>
> It will not happen in my lifetime, and I have resigned myself to making
> intonational inroads *outside* of my current/chosen profession. I still
> believe in what I do, I still strive as hard as humanly possible to make every
> single f***ing note I ever play as musical as I can,

But if you don't love it what's the point? What you haven't talked about is
whether you feel that your particular skills and musical choices are
recognized in your chosen profession, in some way that *you* know (even if
*they* don't) relates to your unique experiences *outside* of the normal of
that culture. Or, if the *particulars* of your expression go unrecognized,
is there still joy in it for you? If not, then what you are doing there is
just having your day job, which might as well be working at a bank. Unless
you feel there is some crossover, some feed-through of your experiences
between the two worlds which actually informs you or conects you or inspires
you or sustains you in some way other than in the money you make. So is
there more of this story to be told, that might make more sense out of it,
even to you? Your inspiration is (potentially) our inspiration. Is what
keeps you going purely the joy of those moments of your own musicality,
mostly unrecognized in your professional context? Or is there more? Or is
there no need for more because that is actually enough?

> and then I come home and
> work in the other world, the other language, the other mindset.
>
> It will not happen on the symphony orchestra concert stage, which is most
> probably all for the good. Too much baggage.
>
> You think otherwise? Show me why, and back it up.

I agree. One doesn't go around "changing" people or cultures. Change
happens where there is curiosity. Where there is curiosity, relationship
can develop. And there lives what is sustainable without a fight. So where
is that? In the corners or in-between places of that drab comfortable
culture, or only outside of it? What, other than fighting might be your
role in sustaining the small things that *are* growing?

-Kurt

>
> Cheers,
> Jon

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/7/2003 6:28:27 AM

In a message dated 11/7/2003 2:42:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kgann@earthlink.net writes:

> True or not true, it reinforces my long-held opinion that nothing in
> my profession could be more Quixotic, more masochistic, than writing
> an alternative-tuning orchestra piece. I once heard a very
> well-intentioned, nobly rehearsed performance of Ben Johnston's JI
> Symphony, and the out-of-tuneness was pitiful.
>
>

S'funny, I never felt that way. I hope to have some microtonally swift
recordings sometime soon. The Ives Universe Symphony in extended Pythagorean with
quartertones and eighthtones is set for mixing on Monday. There are also some
orchestral numbers as well in the PITCH series of CDs which now has 4
mastered out of 20.

best, Johnny

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/7/2003 8:46:35 AM

Kurt,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> But if you don't love it what's the point? What you haven't talked
> about is whether you feel that your particular skills and musical
> choices are recognized in your chosen profession, in some way that
> *you* know (even if *they* don't) relates to your unique
> experiences *outside* of the normal of that culture. Or, if the
> *particulars* of your expression go unrecognized, is there still
> joy in it for you?

I must hasten to add: yes, indeed, I *love* what I do. Maybe because it had been a long day yesterday (2 children's concerts in the morning, rehearsal with Dianne Schuur in the afternoon, and a 5 hour tech rehearsal at the Old Globe) I didn't mention that!

And frankly, one of the reasons I maybe didn't is also cultural: around this list, a lot of people look down snidely on someone who still toils in 12tet music. I've long ago accepted that, and just don't bring up the subject. But to me, in the very largest sense, music is music. I approach it that way, and I make every moment count (which is what I *did* try to get across).

So, sorry if I led you down the wrong path: sitting on stage, in the midst of 80 very talented (if somewhat intonationally non-adventurous) making a glorious combinatorial sound... well, it still is yielding pleasures, and I'm not ready to retire.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/7/2003 8:51:00 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> S'funny, I never felt that way.

But Johnny, be true to your heart: could you, at the drop of a hat (or the planning of a year) be able to put an entire orchestra on stage, for a number of different programs, that could tackle a number of tunings/intonations? And I don't mean a large chamber music party, but a full strength orchestra of 16-14-12-10-8 + ww + br? Even you, as probably the single most successful fielder of live, varied-instrumentation ensembles - could you actually think of putting an entire orchestra together to, say, perform a JI work (successfully) by someone like Kyle Gann?

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@which.net>

11/7/2003 10:16:56 AM

on 7/11/03 04:13, Kyle Gann at kgann@earthlink.net wrote:

it reinforces my long-held opinion that nothing in
> my profession could be more Quixotic, more masochistic, than writing
> an alternative-tuning orchestra piece.

> Cheers regardless,
>
> Kyle
>

A sobering thought as I pull on my hair shirt to do that very thing.

Sincerely
a.m.

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/7/2003 11:32:35 AM

In a message dated 11/7/2003 2:06:51 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JSZANTO@ADNC.COM writes:

> But Johnny, be true to your heart: could you, at the drop of a hat (or the
> planning of a year) be able to put an entire orchestra on stage, for a number
> of different programs, that could tackle a number of tunings/intonations?
> And I don't mean a large chamber music party, but a full strength orchestra of
> 16-14-12-10-8 + ww + br? Even you, as probably the single most successful
> fielder of live, varied-instrumentation ensembles - could you actually think of
> putting an entire orchestra together to, say, perform a JI work
> (successfully) by someone like Kyle Gann?
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

If I could contract the orchestra, yes, it has been done several times. If I
could work with a top group, it would take more attitude adjustment than
technical prowess. The problem is that a conductor must be able to hear the
tuning perfectly, and that is less than likely with traditional conductors. I
don't think it is the player's fault most often. And what would we say of a
composer who cannot hear the music being "composed?"

My personal music is polymicrotonal and that would aid me in a program of
different tunings. I look forward to a future opportunity.

best, Johnny

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/7/2003 1:04:26 PM

Johnny,

Two points:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> If I could contract the orchestra, yes, it has been done several
> times.

There is just one problem with that scenario, and it isn't a small one: you might get an OK performance of a piece, but a great orchestra is not a pick-up group, no matter how good the individuals. Just as great string quartets or any other chamber group become just that by working together, rehearsing together, the best orchestras develop from years of working together, listening to each other, knowing just what *that* player will do in a given instance...

Pick-up contract orchestras are not, and never can be, in the same league. I admit that it may be the only way to try to develop non12 pieces, recordings, concerts, and that may lead to a paradigm shift. *You've* certainly made inroads in increasing the number of players that can comfortably cope with these matters (I'm taking most of this on faith, mind you), but it is a ways off, if at all, before one could expect such enlightenment in the group of professional orchestral musicians.

> If I could work with a top group, it would take more attitude
> adjustment than technical prowess.

Agreed - they would need to *want* to change into something else. It isn't like it hasn't been done: there *are* the successful early music ensembles, with techniques and styles very different from modern instruments/players/playing, but then again we are talking specialists. Walking into the Chicago SO and expecting to pull together a non12 piece on a couple rehearsals? Right...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@earthlink.net>

11/7/2003 1:23:09 PM

Jon,

I've been thinking a lot about 12ET lately. From the perspective of 72ET with it's clear choice of a 5/4 or 6/5 trumping its 12ET version why does The Harvard Dictionary state that we've come to fully accept the thirds in 12ET? Is it possible that what we're really hearing is the 17/9 (or leading tone) with the dominant in the base? That is, the tonic is really the dominant as Beethoven so clearly points out at the beginning of his First Symphony. That would explain this constant need to modulate in western music.

--rt

Jon Szanto wrote:

>Kurt,
>
>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>
>>But if you don't love it what's the point? What you haven't talked >>about is whether you feel that your particular skills and musical >>choices are recognized in your chosen profession, in some way that >>*you* know (even if *they* don't) relates to your unique >>experiences *outside* of the normal of that culture. Or, if the >>*particulars* of your expression go unrecognized, is there still >>joy in it for you?
>>
>
>I must hasten to add: yes, indeed, I *love* what I do. Maybe because it had been a long day yesterday (2 children's concerts in the morning, rehearsal with Dianne Schuur in the afternoon, and a 5 hour tech rehearsal at the Old Globe) I didn't mention that!
>
>And frankly, one of the reasons I maybe didn't is also cultural: around this list, a lot of people look down snidely on someone who still toils in 12tet music. I've long ago accepted that, and just don't bring up the subject. But to me, in the very largest sense, music is music. I approach it that way, and I make every moment count (which is what I *did* try to get across).
>
>So, sorry if I led you down the wrong path: sitting on stage, in the midst of 80 very talented (if somewhat intonationally non-adventurous) making a glorious combinatorial sound... well, it still is yielding pleasures, and I'm not ready to retire.
>
>Cheers,
>Jon
>
>
>
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🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

11/7/2003 1:48:40 PM

Rick Tagawa wrote:

> Jon,
> > I've been thinking a lot about 12ET lately. From the perspective of 72ET > with it's clear choice of a 5/4 or 6/5 trumping its 12ET version why > does The Harvard Dictionary state that we've come to fully accept the > thirds in 12ET? Is it possible that what we're really hearing is the > 17/9 (or leading tone) with the dominant in the base? That is, the > tonic is really the dominant as Beethoven so clearly points out at the > beginning of his First Symphony. That would explain this constant need > to modulate in western music.
> > --rt

... and the neapolitan and other altered sixth chords, and the bVI an jazz. makes a lot of sense to me.

klaus

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

11/7/2003 1:53:56 PM

Rick Tagawa wrote:

after looking at the calculator:
no, it doesn' make that much sense. how the major third and the minor second (which i had in the wrong direction in my mind) go together? please explain.

good night,

klaus

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

11/7/2003 2:01:02 PM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Rick Tagawa <ricktagawa@e...> wrote:
> Jon,
>
> I've been thinking a lot about 12ET lately. From the perspective of
72ET
> with it's clear choice of a 5/4 or 6/5 trumping its 12ET version
> why
> does The Harvard Dictionary state that we've come to fully accept
the
> thirds in 12ET?

what does one have to do with the other?

> Is it possible that what we're really hearing is the
> 17/9 (or leading tone) with the dominant in the base?

i don't know exactly what you mean by that. it may be that isolated
high-register major-seventh dyads are heard as 17:9 in some senses,
but that has nothing to do with the leading tone in tonal music.

> That is, the
> tonic is really the dominant as Beethoven so clearly points out at
the
> beginning of his First Symphony.

oh, now i think i get what you're saying. that the major third we're
hearing is that occuring between 17/9 and 3/2. but we don't hear
pitch ratios, we hear interval ratios. and even if we did, it could
just as well be 17/3 and 9/2 that are implied, or many other things.

so a 34:27 ratio is what our auditory systems would have to somehow
understand (this requires, at the very least, a very precise
rendition of the 12-equal major third -- otherwise other equally
simple ratios will be closer). if it did understand this, the lower
note would be implying, not a dominant of any kind, but rather a
pythagorean major sixth above the implied fundamental.

🔗klaus schmirler <KSchmir@z.zgs.de>

11/8/2003 8:10:04 AM

Paul Erlich wrote:

> so a 34:27 ratio is what our auditory systems would have to somehow > understand (this requires, at the very least, a very precise > rendition of the 12-equal major third -- otherwise other equally > simple ratios will be closer). if it did understand this, the lower > note would be implying, not a dominant of any kind, but rather a > pythagorean major sixth above the implied fundamental.

so that major is really minor .o)

thanks for explaing (if this was the intended meaning)

re my quick forst post: i was thinking of something like 19/15 resolving to 20/16. none of which numbers were mentioned in the original post, so better not bother.

klaus

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/8/2003 9:34:23 AM

In a message dated 11/7/03 10:08:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JSZANTO@ADNC.COM writes:

> There is just one problem with that scenario, and it isn't a small one: you
> might get an OK performance of a piece, but a great orchestra is not a
> pick-up group, no matter how good the individuals. Just as great string quartets
> or any other chamber group become just that by working together, rehearsing
> together, the best orchestras develop from years of working together, listening
> to each other, knowing just what *that* player will do in a given
> instance...
>

That is the situation that I have: we have players that have played together
for decades. Calling it a pick-up orchestra is misleading. It is in fact a
contracted orchestra of players that like playing microtonal music.

> Pick-up contract orchestras are not, and never can be, in the same league.

Actually, we are in a better league. I doubt that any professional orchestra
could present a premiere of the Ives "Universe Symphony" with less rehearsal
at as high a level as was accomplished.

I admit that it may be the only way to try to develop non12 pieces,
recordings,
> concerts, and that may lead to a paradigm shift. *You've* certainly made
> inroads in increasing the number of players that can comfortably cope with
> these matters (I'm taking most of this on faith, mind you), but it is a ways off,
> if at all, before one could expect such enlightenment in the group of
> professional orchestral musicians.
>

The technique necessary is all mental, and mainly one of attitude. The
players already have the necessary skills. Once the orchestra leader can indicate
with exactitude, all follow, not unlike the role of the harpsichord in a
Werckmeister III-tuned Brandenburg Concerto. Enlightenment is a mental thing.
Listers that want to take an easier approach for them, like electronics, are
certainly understandable. But the acoustic music is certainly my preference and
the greatest sound I know of.

> > If I could work with a top group, it would take more attitude
> > adjustment than technical prowess.
>
> Agreed - they would need to *want* to change into something else. It isn't
> like it hasn't been done: there *are* the successful early music ensembles,
> with techniques and styles very different from modern
> instruments/players/playing, but then again we are talking specialists. Walking into the Chicago SO
> and expecting to pull together a non12 piece on a couple rehearsals? Right...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Until that chance occurs, I would be much more positive than either you or
Kyle.

best, Johnny

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/8/2003 10:15:29 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Calling it a pick-up orchestra is misleading. It is in fact a
> contracted orchestra of players that like playing microtonal music.

You do not play concerts on a weekly, or even a monthly basis. You do not play in a regular venue, and therefore know the acoustics and other areas of listening that are critical for a large ensemble to play at a level of which I speak. And lastly, I don't believe that even you, Johnny, could field a 70-80 person orchestra that has played *regularly* together.

I'm not talking about individuals who know each other's playing in various ensembles. I'm talking about things like the sound of a string section that has been honed over time, like a core woodwind section that functions and breathes as one. Much as I am appreciative of your efforts, I also am keeping a perspective on things, and I hope you can see all your positives while at the same time admit that you are not in charge of an ensemble that is in the same league as fine orchestras of which I speak.

> Actually, we are in a better league. I doubt that any professional orchestra
> could present a premiere of the Ives "Universe Symphony" with less rehearsal
> at as high a level as was accomplished.

Then why did you record it in multi-track, and not do a live orchestral recording? Not to mention a live concert?!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

11/8/2003 11:24:13 AM

Jon Szanto wrote:

>>Actually, we are in a better league. I doubt that any professional orchestra >>could present a premiere of the Ives "Universe Symphony" with less rehearsal >>at as high a level as was accomplished.
>> >>
>
>Then why did you record it in multi-track, and not do a live orchestral recording? Not to mention a live concert?!
> >

I don't know why they're doing a multi-track recording, but the Ives was
performed and recorded.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/8/2003 4:05:52 PM

In a message dated 11/8/03 2:17:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, JSZANTO@ADNC.COM
writes:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > Calling it a pick-up orchestra is misleading. It is in fact a
> > contracted orchestra of players that like playing microtonal music.
>
> You do not play concerts on a weekly, or even a monthly basis. You do not
> play in a regular venue, and therefore know the acoustics and other areas of
> listening that are critical for a large ensemble to play at a level of which I
> speak. And lastly, I don't believe that even you, Johnny, could field a 70-80
> person orchestra that has played *regularly* together.
>

S'funny how you are attempting to reduce this to what I cannot do. If John
Adams's piece was written too late for proper rehearsal, AND the conductor was
unfamiliar with JI tuning, then it makes total sense that an established
orchestra could not attempt it. I really don't care what you believe, Jon, about
my abilities or disabilities. I am only giving my opinion.

> I'm not talking about individuals who know each other's playing in various
> ensembles. I'm talking about things like the sound of a string section that
> has been honed over time, like a core woodwind section that functions and
> breathes as one.

I believe I understand the depth of woodwind playing in a section on the
highest levels. Please come to our Microtonal Wind Quintet concert on March 28th
if you like. I know someone who can get you in.

In the past, I preferred to play in the ensemble/orchestra in order to
influence the tuning directly and continually, opting for others to conduct. The
problem was that the conductor's could not hear the meaning of the tunings.
Works like Mordecai Sandberg's "Psalm #51" for soprano orchestra
(polymicrotonal), Paul Gallagher's "Way of the Hopi" for orchestra in JI, Ives' "Universe
Symphony," Alyssa Ryvers's "Hologram" for orchestra, and my "Middle-Earth" among
others were quite in tune.

Much as I am appreciative of your efforts, I also am keeping a perspective on
things, and I hope you can see all your
> positives while at the same time admit that you are not in charge of an
> ensemble that is in the same league as fine orchestras of which I speak.

I believe your are prejudiced, here, prejudging what you have no knowledge
of. You should know better. Normally, you would advise someone not to
prejudge. Staid players that play war-horse orchestral pieces the same way each time,
regardless of the conductor are certainly not superior to many of the players
I use. You may as well say that University professors are ipso facto
brighter than many of the non-tenured intellects that are really pushing the arts
forward.

> > Actually, we are in a better league. I doubt that any professional
> orchestra
> > could present a premiere of the Ives "Universe Symphony" with less
> rehearsal
> > at as high a level as was accomplished.
>
> Then why did you record it in multi-track, and not do a live orchestral
> recording? Not to mention a live concert?!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Once the music union #802 asked for over $80,000 in extra money to put out
the recording, I was able to work out an alternative plan that maximizes the
control of the music. NYC does not even have the room to work such a large
ensemble. Besides, I think you will find the result quite fantastic when the
mixing is completed.

best, Johnny

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/8/2003 5:03:07 PM

Hi David,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> I don't know why they're doing a multi-track recording, but the Ives
> was performed and recorded.

I thought I remembered Johnny talking about doing multiple recording sessions, doing different sections. But it is well within the possibility of my either reading wrongly or mis-remembering, and if they did a live performance of it (and, hopefully, at *least* an anecdotal recording) then that is a good thing.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/8/2003 5:18:04 PM

Johnny,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> S'funny how you are attempting to reduce this to what I cannot do.

I'm not. You are trying to make it seem like you do something that you don't! There is a big, big difference in an ensemble of any size that plays together on a regular basis. That applies to quartets, trios, whatever, but the larger the group the more apparant it is when it is not an ongoing, regular ensemble.

You do not have a full season of orchestral concerts. That is my point, and my only point. No matter how good the individual's playing, it does not replace the full-time ensemble performance experience.

> I really don't care what you believe, Jon, about
> my abilities or disabilities. I am only giving my opinion.

Don't get personal - I'm not talking about your abilities, I'm talking about the fact that you don't have an orchestra.

> Please come to our Microtonal Wind Quintet concert on March 28th
> if you like. I know someone who can get you in.

That is obviously not the point.

> I believe your are prejudiced, here, prejudging what you have no knowledge
> of. You should know better.

So you have a full-time orchestra? I believe that is news to everyone. And if you don't, then there isn't any way you can convince people who have spent the bulk of their lives playing orchestral music that you can do it with a group of players that come together occasionally.

Especially since you haven't released any full ensemble recordings.

> Staid players that play war-horse orchestral pieces the same way each time,

No they don't.

> regardless of the conductor are certainly not superior to many
> of the players I use.

You are continually missing the point: I am not referring to individuals in your groups. If you think they are superior to other players, fine - you are the one doing the judging, not me. I am making a very straight-forward commentary about what makes, and what doesn't make, a very fine large ensemble.

> Once the music union #802 asked for over $80,000 in extra money to put out
> the recording, I was able to work out an alternative plan that maximizes the
> control of the music.

In other words, you did not record the work with the entire ensemble en masse?

> NYC does not even have the room to work such a large ensemble.

Pray tell, where have all the orchestral recordings done in NYC over the years come from then?

> Besides, I think you will find the result quite fantastic when the
> mixing is completed.

I've heard 'fantastic' recordings that needed virtually no mixing: you simply capture the live performance of an orchestra that knows, with either the help of a conductor or with a group like Orpheus, how to balance itself. You can hear this virtually every month with recordings from the BBC.

I look forward to the recording, but I am wondering if they will come out in my lifetime!

In closing, if you did do a performance of the Universe with a live, full size orchestra and somehow I was not aware of it or am misremembering, I really do apologize. I hope to hear it someday...

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/8/2003 6:15:36 PM

In a message dated 11/8/03 8:35:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, JSZANTO@ADNC.COM
writes:

> Johnny,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > S'funny how you are attempting to reduce this to what I cannot do.
>
> I'm not. You are trying to make it seem like you do something that you
> don't! There is a big, big difference in an ensemble of any size that plays
> together on a regular basis. That applies to quartets, trios, whatever, but the
> larger the group the more apparant it is when it is not an ongoing, regular
> ensemble.
>
> You do not have a full season of orchestral concerts. That is my point, and
> my only point. No matter how good the individual's playing, it does not
> replace the full-time ensemble performance experience.
>

I cannot account for your idealism. But I can say, once again, that I have
had a number of orchestral concerts over the years, all with completely
microtonal programs. And you will have to hear them to judge them.

> > I really don't care what you believe, Jon, about
> > my abilities or disabilities. I am only giving my opinion.
>
> Don't get personal - I'm not talking about your abilities, I'm talking about
> the fact that you don't have an orchestra.
>

There is an AFMM orchestra. I do wish we had more performances, but they are
among the best ensembles.

> > Please come to our Microtonal Wind Quintet concert on March 28th
> > if you like. I know someone who can get you in.
>
> That is obviously not the point.
>

It may be a different point, but it is not beside any point. You have not
met or heard my work in person. Hearing what a fine wind ensemble can do with a
virtuosic program of microtonal wind quintets SHOULD alleviate your mind
somewhat as to my working with a wind section in an orchestra. Of course, I have
played in many wind sections as a bassoonist, including some quite famous
ones.

>
> > I believe your are prejudiced, here, prejudging what you have no knowledge
>
> > of. You should know better.
>
> So you have a full-time orchestra? I believe that is news to everyone. And
> if you don't, then there isn't any way you can convince people who have spent
> the bulk of their lives playing orchestral music that you can do it with a
> group of players that come together occasionally.
>

Not everyone, as David Beardsley as tried to tell you. I have a lifetime
playing and teaching orchestral music (as a professor at New York University).
My life choice has been to be a soloist. You should be very happy I made this
choice or there would never have been an AFMM.

> Especially since you haven't released any full ensemble recordings.
>

This is not my fault any more than it is your fault that there were fires in
southern California. I work to release these works as hard as I can. A pity
it took so long for the Harry Partch works to come out.

> > Staid players that play war-horse orchestral pieces the same way each
> time,
>
> No they don't.

Tell it to the New York Phil.

> > regardless of the conductor are certainly not superior to many
> > of the players I use.
>
> You are continually missing the point: I am not referring to individuals in
> your groups. If you think they are superior to other players, fine - you are
> the one doing the judging, not me. I am making a very straight-forward
> commentary about what makes, and what doesn't make, a very fine large ensemble.
>

You are speaking about general theory, ironically. In general, you are
right. I have a relationship with a multitude of musicians that have on occasion
constituted the AFMM orchestra. The players are recurring players over many,
many years.

> > Once the music union #802 asked for over $80,000 in extra money to put
> out
> > the recording, I was able to work out an alternative plan that maximizes
> the
> > control of the music.
>
> In other words, you did not record the work with the entire ensemble en
> masse?

No. (Sometimes I wonder whether it is my New York accent.) Yes, I did
record the 74-piece orchestra in the Lincoln Center premiere on 6/6/96. Only its
commercial release was prevented. It is available at the Lincoln Center
Library, NYU Library, and the Ives archive at Yale University. I would have loved
for it to be available, but I was prevented from doing so.

> > NYC does not even have the room to work such a large ensemble.
>
> Pray tell, where have all the orchestral recordings done in NYC over the
> years come from then?

Pray tell? When you can spread the money for me to rent, along with union
wages, Carnegie, Avery Fisher, or the Hammerstein Ballroom, I'll surely consider
it. But this is all prohibited to me for reasons that should be obvious.

> > Besides, I think you will find the result quite fantastic when the
> > mixing is completed.
>
> I've heard 'fantastic' recordings that needed virtually no mixing: you
> simply capture the live performance of an orchestra that knows, with either the
> help of a conductor or with a group like Orpheus, how to balance itself.

Once again, done that. Now we're doing something new. When Harry Partch had
trouble with the Yeats estate for his Oedipus, he rewrote the libretto. I
found a way to record the 74-piece work with 18 musicians. Once you get this
around your head, I'll be happy to explain it. In the meantime, this week the
120 tracks needs to be mixed.

You can hear this virtually every month with recordings from the BBC.
> I look forward to the recording, but I am wondering if they will come out
> in my lifetime!

Again, I remember the same being said about Partch publications. Stay
healthy!

> In closing, if you did do a performance of the Universe with a live, full
> size orchestra and somehow I was not aware of it or am misremembering, I
> really do apologize. I hope to hear it someday...
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

Apology accepted. :) Johnny

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

11/8/2003 7:05:09 PM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> And you will have to hear them to judge them.

Well, that makes it easy to keep a mythology going, doesn't it?

> There is an AFMM orchestra. I do wish we had more performances,
> but they are among the best ensembles.

In the 20 years or so of the AFMM, how many full orchestra programs have you done?

> It may be a different point, but it is not beside any point.

It is - we are talking large ensembles, and the playing that they do. The way the Julliard Quartet works and plays is different from the Vienna Philharmonic.

> My life choice has been to be a soloist. You should be very happy I made this
> choice or there would never have been an AFMM.

Again, completely off-topic.

> This is not my fault any more than it is your fault that there were fires in
> southern California.

How can anyone keep up a cogent discussion with statements like the above? Your repeated stories of how hard it is to put out recordings, in this day and age, is incredible. I not only see countless, countless examples of people doing it throughout the country (and world, I reasonably assume) but even in my own little town I know of a large number of people that have and are doing so. Creative musicians, deciding to document their work so *others* can hear it, and doing it on a regular basis. Never has the barrier to producing one's own recordings been so near to non-existant.

> A pity it took so long for the Harry Partch works to come out.

A statement that again has nothing to do with orchestras being able to play non-12tet pieces, but for the record: Partch put out his own recordings *during* his lifetime. You know this, and you are just deciding to avoid the issue. The first recording was done in 1946. He found ways on his own to release recordings for the next 20 years, and then worked with CRI and CBS.

But this is ancient history, done at a time when recording was so much more expensive and arduous.

> Tell it to the New York Phil.

Seeing as one of my oldest friends has now been the Bassoon/Contrabassoon chair in that orchestra for the last 7 years, I don't need to - we've talked about concertizing on a regular basis. Not to mention close friends in at least 6 of the other major US orchestras.

> Yes, I did record the 74-piece orchestra in the Lincoln Center
> premiere on 6/6/96. Only its commercial release was prevented.

This is a shame. Maybe you can renegotiate...

> Pray tell? When you can spread the money for me to rent, along with union
> wages, Carnegie, Avery Fisher, or the Hammerstein Ballroom, I'll surely consider
> it. But this is all prohibited to me for reasons that should be obvious.

I sure read about a lot of orchestras popping up in NYC, playing in churches, etc. Somebody knows how to do it.

But that is again beside the point (on my side this time). What you have chosen to do is more than good enough, and you should do it your way.

> found a way to record the 74-piece work with 18 musicians. Once you get this
> around your head, I'll be happy to explain it. In the meantime, this week the
> 120 tracks needs to be mixed.

C'mon, I've done multitrack recording for years, it isn't a difficult scenario to imagine. But while you may have an interesting recording, it won't sound like an orchestra actually playing it.

> Apology accepted. :)

Yep, and now that I am cleared up on the history (I bet we talked about all that back on the Mills list) the apology is right here in print!

Cheers,
Jon

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

11/9/2003 2:25:53 AM

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

>
> Not everyone, as David Beardsley as tried to tell you. I have a
lifetime
> playing and teaching orchestral music (as a professor at New York
University).

Please be precise. The catalogue of the NYU Steinhardt School of
Education doesn't identify you as either a professor, associate
professor, or assistant professor. It's impressive enough that you
have the position you do have. No need for title-inflation.

Gabor

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

11/9/2003 6:32:05 AM

alternativetuning wrote:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> >
>>Not everyone, as David Beardsley as tried to tell you. I have a >> >>
>lifetime > >
>>playing and teaching orchestral music (as a professor at New York >> >>
>University). >
>Please be precise. The catalogue of the NYU Steinhardt School of >Education doesn't identify you as either a professor, associate >professor, or assistant professor. It's impressive enough that you >have the position you do have. No need for title-inflation.
>
http://www.nyu.edu/education/music/faculty/reinhard_johnny.html

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

11/9/2003 9:11:07 AM

> http://www.nyu.edu/education/music/faculty/reinhard_johnny.html
>
>
> * David Beardsley
> * microtonal guitar
> * http://biink.com/db

David Beardsley,

Exactly. Johnny Reinhard is a bassoon specialist teacher, a good
position at a good university, but not a ladder professor.

Gabor

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/9/2003 9:21:56 AM

In a message dated 11/9/03 5:31:29 AM Eastern Standard Time,
alternativetuning@yahoo.com writes:

> Please be precise. The catalogue of the NYU Steinhardt School of
> Education doesn't identify you as either a professor, associate
> professor, or assistant professor. It's impressive enough that you
> have the position you do have. No need for title-inflation.
>
> Gabor
>

Please check under Bassoon. Then tell my students not to call me Professor.
S'funny, I'm listed in all their materials, including on the Internet. Have
you ever heard of an adjunct professor? They are the greater majority of
professors at NYU and most other universities. They are most often the musicians
that teach the instrumentalists.

best, Johnny

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/9/2003 11:16:27 AM

Dear Jon,

I often think you do not read an entire message before you decide to begin
your responses. Additionally, I do not think either of us wants a flame war.
And furthermore, it does not aid what we want to waste time saying the same
things, over and over. And finally, there must be some way to eloquently end one
of these "cogent" discussions. In the past we have just gone private, but
that does not seem the best answer all the time. I will try not to be negative
as I respond for the last time about your questions regarding my resume and
capabilities.

In a message dated 11/8/03 10:12:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JSZANTO@ADNC.COM writes:

>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > And you will have to hear them to judge them.
>
> Well, that makes it easy to keep a mythology going, doesn't it?

I'll try not to be insulted by this, especially since it is not a mythology
for many others.

> > There is an AFMM orchestra. I do wish we had more performances,
> > but they are among the best ensembles.
>
> In the 20 years or so of the AFMM, how many full orchestra programs have you
> done?

There have been 3 full orchestra performances. It is not only because of
finance, but because of a paucity of repertoire that there have not been more.
All the orchestra works were world premieres.

> > It may be a different point, but it is not beside any point.
>
> It is - we are talking large ensembles, and the playing that they do. The
> way the Julliard Quartet works and plays is different from the Vienna
> Philharmonic.
>

Yes, so? I believe the orchestral musicians were considered "show horses in
the concert ring" by your mentor, Harry Partch? I am quite comfortable with
this ilk of musician, having worked with them my entire life. Besides, I work
with the Flux Quartet, not the Juilliard Quartet.

> > My life choice has been to be a soloist. You should be very happy I made
> this
> > choice or there would never have been an AFMM.
>
> Again, completely off-topic.
>

No, it is not. I did not sell out (not saying you did). I lived a full
musical life (and continue to do so as best I can). If I had sold out to the
control of another institution, rather than to develop my own, there would have
been little organization to present and promote live performance. Even for
those that haven't made it to NYC for live concerts, there has been encouragement
as a result the world over, including Los Angeles.

Never has the barrier to producing one's own recordings been so near to
non-
> existant.
>

And that is why we are ever closer. I don't want to issue single CDs. We've
done that already. Have you heard my album Raven available from Amazon.com?
Did you get a copy of "Between the Keys" before Sony mislead myself and Betty
Freeman only to use it as a tax write-off? My experience tells me that
putting out 20 CDs at the same time will have a better chance to get the world's
attention, than by drips and drabs. Allow me the courtesy to dispense my
archive in an appropriate manner, and at the risk of your gripes about "mythology."

> > A pity it took so long for the Harry Partch works to come out.
>
> A statement that again has nothing to do with orchestras being able to play
> non-12tet pieces,

The above statement has to do with the time it took, and still takes, for
Danlee Mitchell t al., to make Partch's music available to a wider possibility.
I did not mean to blame Harry Partch, himself. He was great at it!

> > Yes, I did record the 74-piece orchestra in the Lincoln Center
> > premiere on 6/6/96. Only its commercial release was prevented.
>
> This is a shame. Maybe you can renegotiate...

Not possible.

> > Pray tell? When you can spread the money for me to rent, along with
> union
> > wages, Carnegie, Avery Fisher, or the Hammerstein Ballroom, I'll surely
> consider
> > it. But this is all prohibited to me for reasons that should be obvious.
>
> I sure read about a lot of orchestras popping up in NYC, playing in
> churches, etc. Somebody knows how to do it.

And how long do they last? A few years. We are now in our 24th year. And
what material would you have us play? Well, we are doing all Bach in
Werckmeister III, a whole concert on March 24th. Maybe we'll get to Mozart symphonies
in extended sixth-comma pythagorean. Why would you bring up such a red
herring as my having a series of exclusively orchestra concerts when there is little
to no music? Isn't it more advantageous to present world premieres of good
works as they become available? (No need to answer as these are rhetorical
questions.)

> But that is again beside the point (on my side this time). What you have
> chosen to do is more than good enough, and you should do it your way.
>
> > found a way to record the 74-piece work with 18 musicians. Once you get
> this
> > around your head, I'll be happy to explain it. In the meantime, this week
> the
> > 120 tracks needs to be mixed.
>
> C'mon, I've done multitrack recording for years, it isn't a difficult
> scenario to imagine. But while you may have an interesting recording, it won't
> sound like an orchestra actually playing it.

Once again, you are selling me short. It is difficult for you to imagine
what is going on here because it has not been spelled out. Also you don't know
the Ives score, which is critical to the decision that was taken. Jon, you
don't understand the constrictions of doing concerts in NY, especially for large
ensembles. You don't know the specific contract that I have with music union
#802. You don't know everything, so I become mythical to you. Hopefully, it
won't take more than another year of two for materials to become available.

The Ives used my conducting core players direct to disc and with a digital
video. My players could then follow the video conductor using headphones to
hear the other tracks already laid down. (Jon, if you know this already, please
excuse as it is for other readers.) The tuning was in extended Pythagorean
tuning. We were able to retune the piano, organ, etc. The sound is
unbelievable as Mike Thorne is quite a legend as to recording musicians. It has been 4
years in the making. Though I am quite proud of the premiere performance of
the Ives "Universe Symphony," there is no unanimity about the finishability of
the piece, or if there is even a piece there. I wrote a book to this effect
that I will have to self-publish because the bigger "academic" publishers think
it won't sell enough copies. I am presently in negotiation to be able to
release my Finale score of the work. wish me luck

> > Apology accepted. :)
>
> Yep, and now that I am cleared up on the history (I bet we talked about all
> that back on the Mills list) the apology is right here in print!
>
> Cheers,
> Jon
>
>

Let's table this for now so I can get back to work, getting these materials
out to the public.

best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/9/2003 11:19:06 AM

In a message dated 11/9/03 12:36:59 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alternativetuning@yahoo.com writes:

> Exactly. Johnny Reinhard is a bassoon specialist teacher, a good
> position at a good university, but not a ladder professor.
>
> Gabor

This is a cultural difference. For you see there are no Bassoon Professors
at NYU under your definition. What do you mean by "ladder" professor?

Johnny

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

11/9/2003 3:01:36 PM

Well, Jon and Johnny,

Sorry to have set up a potentially flame-conducive situation, but if it's any consolation, I found your discussions of the problem entertaining and enlightening on both sides. And perhaps I should have more carefully honed my original statement: nothing in my profession could be more Quixotic, more masochistic, than writing an alternative-tuning piece for an existing, established orchestra. A JI orchestra would have to be, by definition, a different animal altogether - made of of newly collected players, no doubt, not used to playing together by long experience, but more in tune and more called upon to closely listen to each other to fall perfectly in tune. It would be the beginning of a whole new performance practice, and you couldn't really compare it to the traditional orchestra.

But please, this is just to sum up. You both have work to do, and so do I, but I wanted you to know at least one person didn't consider the conversation a waste of time.

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/10/2003 8:56:49 AM

In a message dated 11/9/2003 2:48:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, Afmmjr@aol.com
writes:

> Yes, so? I believe the orchestral musicians were considered "show horses
> in the concert ring" by your mentor, Harry Partch? I am quite comfortable
> with this ilk of musician, having worked with them my entire life. Besides, I
> work with the Flux Quartet, not the Juilliard Quartet.
>

Just to be clear: "ilk" is not meant to be a perjorative work. Nor does the
dictionary consider it such. Show horses are those that follow the leader and
wear blinders. I was saying that I work with this ilk, as meant by this
"kind" or "type" of player. Of course, I work with other, more adventurous
players that can think microtonally, improvisationally, etc., on their own, as well
as under direction. My point is that I work with all types of professional
musicians. After all, most microtonal musicians started non-microtonally.

best to all, Johnny Reinhard

you, too, Jon

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

11/16/2003 1:50:38 PM

Hello all,

I've learned some things about John Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur, and received a bootleg copy of the premiere performance from one of our helpful friends on this list - for which, thanks! Rather than rewrite what I said on my blog (http://www.artsjournal.com/postclassic), I simply copy that for you here:

Following up on a previous blog entry, I've received two reports of John Adams' The Dharma at Big Sur, his new orchestra piece with the LA Phil premiered at the Disney Center, which was to be Adams' first foray into the alternative system of tuning known as just intonation. According to one third-hand report, there wasn't enough rehearsal time to deal with the tunings, and the piece was played in conventional tuning. However, according to a more official report I received, this wasn't quite true. Finnish composer Juhani Nuorvala subsequently interviewed Adams in Helsinki for the Finnish music magazine Rondo and e-mailed me the results. Nurovala is himself a just-intonation composer, which I was excited to hear, both because he'd know what to ask Adams about, and also because in the microtonal world it's supposed that none of the European microtonalists use just intonation, and I was glad to hear of a counterexample.

According to Nuorvala, there had indeed been little rehearsal time, and many of the musicians couldn't get what Adams was aiming at. Some of the brass players reportedly said that it was no use trying to get the high overtones Adams wanted, but the harps were retuned. Adams hopes for more rehearsal time at the Proms in London, and perhaps the tunings will work out better there.

And as it so happens, someone also slipped me a bootleg recording of The Dharma at Big Sur (you'll never learn who, I protect my sources), so I've had a chance to judge for myself. I can't really better Nuorvala's description: "...it was laid back and pretty, reminding me of Adams' electronic studio record, Voodoo Zephyr. The tuning didn't sound as special as I expected, and I was unsure what I was hearing though there were some 7/4's [seventh scale degrees lowered by about a third of a half-step]. Harmonically the music was pretty static, the orchestra forming a background texture for the soloist's improvisatory quasi-Indian style lines." This is all true, and I indeed hear some intentionally flat seventh scale degrees at the beginning. Overall, however, except for some quasi-Indian sliding around by the solo violinist Tracy Silverman, the unconventional tunings don't seem to come off. It is a lovely piece, though - I find it probably the most attractive Adams piece I've heard since the 1980s.

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

11/17/2003 9:06:13 AM

In a message dated 11/16/2003 4:51:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kgann@earthlink.net writes:

> and many of the musicians couldn't get what Adams was aiming at. Some of
> the brass players reportedly said that it was no use trying to get the high
> overtones Adams wanted,

Kyle, might the situation have been better if someone could explain what
Adams was getting at? I bet Adams wasn't even at the rehearsals from the sound of
things. Or worse, he couldn't explain and/or hear what the sounds were
supposed to be.

As for the brass...instead of trying to get specific high overtones, they
might have had better luck just retuning set notes by a specific number of cents.
Again, this sounds like there was no one leading in the intonation
department.

best, Johnny

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

11/17/2003 9:21:53 AM

>Kyle, might the situation have been better if someone could explain >what Adams was getting at? I bet
>Adams wasn't even at the rehearsals from the sound of things. Or >worse, he couldn't explain and/or
>hear what the sounds were supposed to be.

>As for the brass...instead of trying to get specific high overtones, >they might have had better luck just
>retuning set notes by a specific number of cents. Again, this >sounds like there was no one leading in the
>intonation department.

>best, Johnny

Johnny, all I know is that Adams was indeed at the rehearsal, and I know this by a curious coincidence - my wife was there. As director of the Frank Gehry-designed Fisher Center, she was invited out to see the Disney Center, and happened to be introduced to Adams in the hall. (She even appeared, unidentified, on TV in a brief news clip, listening to Salonen rehearse some other piece.) It sounds as though the orchestra members didn't want to go out of their way to understand the tunings, and rehearsal time was brief. I may have spoken too loosely in blog-ese about the "high overtones" - Nuorvala says Adams was trying to get 7th harmonics above 11th harmonics, which wouldn't be the actual overtone probably, but some 77/64 relationship. The remaining question is, does Adams know enough about the practical details of coaxing microtones from standard instruments to have gotten what he wanted given enough time and good intentions? Who knows? Would the performance been more in tune if, say, Johnny Reinhard had been present to make it happen? Indubitably.

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗rumsong <rumsong@telus.net>

11/17/2003 10:07:16 AM

The remaining question is, does Adams know enough about
> the practical details of coaxing microtones from standard
instruments
> to have gotten what he wanted given enough time and good
intentions?
> Who knows? Would the performance been more in tune if, say,
Johnny
> Reinhard had been present to make it happen? Indubitably.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kyle

Greetings,

Coaxing altered tunings out of many instrumentalists is a difficult
task. One of the saddest examples is the Piano Quintet of Arthur
Fickenscher as it was recorded with the aged Fickenscher at the
piano. There are not that many microtonal inflections, and
Fickenscher reduced his demands from what I believe would
have been his theoretical ideal.

But given the shoddy string tuning through the performance, I
would prefer that they had just gotten something close to a
'standard' tuning. The recording is as Fickenscher's biographer
said a travesty. How he must have winced at the sounds...

A massive educational effort is required, I fear.

All best wishes,

Gordon Rumson

🔗juhani nuorvala <jnylenius@yahoo.com>

11/19/2003 10:53:02 PM

>Nuorvala says Adams was trying to get 7th harmonics above 11th
>harmonics, which wouldn't be the actual overtone probably, but some
>77/64 relationship.

Adams was actually not trying to get such a relationship.
This is a misunderstanding caused by a typo in my email to Kyle Gann.
I wrote "7ths of 11ths" instead of "7ths or 11ths". I'm sorry!

>The remaining question is, does Adams know enough about
> the practical details of coaxing microtones from standard
>instruments
> to have gotten what he wanted given enough time and good
>intentions?

Judging from what he told me about his experiences of conducting and
rehearsing Lou Harrison's music, Adams is indeed capable of coaching
musicians in JI and is looking forward to doing that in future
performances of 'Dharma'.

Juhani Nuorvala