Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning partch books to buy

I'm planning on buying some books on tuning, and i found harry
partch's book, genesis of a music, with a very big price difference,
why is that? Can you tell me if there's a better edition with more
information, if I buy the cheap one i won´t have all the story, or is
it just a fancy edition with the same content?

Any hints on other books to buy?

I know a lot about the basic theory, and I'm interested in taking it
further, I see there's no rich literature about it, I see they tend
to be superficial and focus only on the history of temperament from
18th century to 12EQ, is that right? My main interest is on the 20th
century researches, like Xenakis, Wendy Carlos, Partch, Bohlen-
Pierce, is there anything about it, or just what´s on the web?

CHEERS Everyone...
Alex

🔗Paul <ubertar@yahoo.com>

Check out tuning, timbre, spectrum, scale by William Sethares. Partch's ide=
as are
good, but he only deals with the relationships between fundamentals, and ig=
nores the
partials. Most other theorists only deal with linear timbres- those that ha=
ve partials
that fall into the harmonic series. Sethares' work is inclusive of all timb=
res, and his
ideas work. I like Partch's music a lot, but no matter how many times I lis=
ten to it, it
sounds out of tune (in a distinctive way that I enjoy). Sethares is no grea=
t composer,
but he can make ANY scale sound in tune by matching it with an appropriate =
timbre.
Check it out, it's revolutionary stuff.

Paul Rubenstein

www.geocities.com/ubertar

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "mentalosmosis" <mentalosmosis@y...> wrote:
> I'm planning on buying some books on tuning, and i found harry
> partch's book, genesis of a music, with a very big price difference,
> why is that? Can you tell me if there's a better edition with more
> information, if I buy the cheap one i won´t have all the story, or is
> it just a fancy edition with the same content?
>
> Any hints on other books to buy?
>
> I know a lot about the basic theory, and I'm interested in taking it
> further, I see there's no rich literature about it, I see they tend
> to be superficial and focus only on the history of temperament from
> 18th century to 12EQ, is that right? My main interest is on the 20th
> century researches, like Xenakis, Wendy Carlos, Partch, Bohlen-
> Pierce, is there anything about it, or just what´s on the web?
>
> CHEERS Everyone...
> Alex

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

Hey all,

I remember reading somewhere (was it Wendy Carlos who said it?) a criticism of
Partch, that for all his JI tuning, he really missed giving it its' full
beauty because he used such percussive, quick decaying timbres.

For what it's worth, I whole-heartdly agree. I'll take his student Ben
Johnston's work over Partch in terms of how pleasant it is any day.

Also, I notice that, for my money, short-decay timbres in some of the weirder
ET's (read 'bad-JI approximate') work better and sound less jarring,
allowing people to keep your music on longer...I have found in my own
improvisations on synth with a percussionist, that setting a bell or drum
type decay works best for 7-tet, for example (although 7-tet has workable
5ths and 4ths in certain sustained timbres, although they really beat!)

Even better, matching the timbre to the tuning intervals a la Sethares, as
many have mentioned (obviously, an electronics-only endeavor)...but I will
mention the idea of making the tuning match the timbre (like some theorist
notice about gamelan tunings-they match closely the spectrum of the
percussive timbres' overtones)

Best,
AKJ

--
OCEAN, n. A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made
for man -- who has no gills. -Ambrose Bierce 'The Devils Dictionary'

🔗mentalosmosis <mentalosmosis@yahoo.com>

Cool, I was checking sethares' book and it felt interesting, thank
for the tip and review, maybe I should gather the books I think might
be interesting and then ask the folks in the list. I live in Brazil,
so I can only check this books online, no bookstores can help me
here...

But still, I'd like to buy Patch's book cause I thought it was cheap,
and then I saw the same book with a much higher price, I'm hesitating
to buy the cheap one cause I'm wondering that these different
editions might be different in content, is that right?

thanks a bunch...
Cheers
Alex

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <ubertar@y...> wrote:
> Check out tuning, timbre, spectrum, scale by William Sethares.
Partch's ide=
> as are
> good, but he only deals with the relationships between
fundamentals, and ig=
> nores the
> partials. Most other theorists only deal with linear timbres- those
that ha=
> ve partials
> that fall into the harmonic series. Sethares' work is inclusive of
all timb=
> res, and his
> ideas work. I like Partch's music a lot, but no matter how many
times I lis=
> ten to it, it
> sounds out of tune (in a distinctive way that I enjoy). Sethares is
no grea=
> t composer,
> but he can make ANY scale sound in tune by matching it with an
appropriate =
> timbre.
> Check it out, it's revolutionary stuff.
>
> Paul Rubenstein
>
> www.geocities.com/ubertar
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "mentalosmosis" <mentalosmosis@y...>
wrote:
> > I'm planning on buying some books on tuning, and i found harry
> > partch's book, genesis of a music, with a very big price
difference,
> > why is that? Can you tell me if there's a better edition with
more
> > information, if I buy the cheap one i won´t have all the story,
or is
> > it just a fancy edition with the same content?
> >
> > Any hints on other books to buy?
> >
> > I know a lot about the basic theory, and I'm interested in taking
it
> > further, I see there's no rich literature about it, I see they
tend
> > to be superficial and focus only on the history of temperament
from
> > 18th century to 12EQ, is that right? My main interest is on the
20th
> > century researches, like Xenakis, Wendy Carlos, Partch, Bohlen-
> > Pierce, is there anything about it, or just what´s on the web?
> >
> > CHEERS Everyone...
> > Alex

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Alex,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "mentalosmosis" <mentalosmosis@y...>
wrote:

> I'm planning on buying some books on tuning, and i found
> harry partch's book, genesis of a music, with a very big
> price difference, why is that? Can you tell me if there's a
> better edition with more information, if I buy the cheap one
> i won´t have all the story, or is it just a fancy edition
> with the same content?

Partch's book, _Genesis of a Music_, was originally published
in 1947 or 1949 (i'm not sure which), and is now a rare
collector's item.

the revised and expanded 2nd edition, the last thing Partch
completed just before he died, was published in 1974.

the original printing of that 2nd edition, which i have,
has a nice center spread of color photos of his instruments
on glossy paper ... which, in fact, is the main thing that
attracted to the book, since at the time i bought it i had
absolutely no idea who he was or what just-intonation was.

it went out of print in the 1980s, then was reprinted in
the late 1990s, but this time the center spread of photos
was done in black and white on non-glossy paper.

that's the best i can do to help you with this question.

> Any hints on other books to buy?
>
> I know a lot about the basic theory, and I'm interested in
> taking it further, I see there's no rich literature about it,
> I see they tend to be superficial and focus only on the history
> of temperament from 18th century to 12EQ, is that right? My
> main interest is on the 20th century researches, like Xenakis,
> Wendy Carlos, Partch, Bohlen-Pierce, is there anything about
> it, or just what´s on the web?

yikes! ... you need to take a look at this:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/bib.html

in addition (tooting my own horn), i think you'll find my
online Dictionary of Tuning Terms very useful:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict

-monz

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

I thought I would try to "tie this thread together" by listing for posterity
(for the archives) all the different subjects that have been used for
replies to the original message:

[tuning] Re: tuning books to buy
[tuning] Partch
[tuning] Re: tuning books to buy (Harry Partch).
[tuning] Re: partch books to buy
Re: [tuning] Partch Books to buy and fast decays

So far this thread has 5 subjects, in some cases for a good reason.

Still I feel compelled to agitate again for keeping threads organized by
subject. If there is a need to change the subject, you can use the

new subject [was: old subject]

convention, in which case I personally prefer to remove any "Re" from the
old subject.

Thanks,
Kurt Bigler

on 10/24/03 7:08 AM, mentalosmosis <mentalosmosis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I'm planning on buying some books on tuning, and i found harry
> partch's book, genesis of a music, with a very big price difference,
> why is that? Can you tell me if there's a better edition with more
> information, if I buy the cheap one i won´t have all the story, or is
> it just a fancy edition with the same content?
>
> Any hints on other books to buy?
>
> I know a lot about the basic theory, and I'm interested in taking it
> further, I see there's no rich literature about it, I see they tend
> to be superficial and focus only on the history of temperament from
> 18th century to 12EQ, is that right? My main interest is on the 20th
> century researches, like Xenakis, Wendy Carlos, Partch, Bohlen-
> Pierce, is there anything about it, or just what´s on the web?
>
> CHEERS Everyone...
> Alex

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48163

> hi Alex,
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "mentalosmosis" <mentalosmosis@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm planning on buying some books on tuning, and i found
> > harry partch's book, genesis of a music, with a very big
> > price difference, why is that? Can you tell me if there's a
> > better edition with more information, if I buy the cheap one
> > i won´t have all the story, or is it just a fancy edition
> > with the same content?
>
>
>
> Partch's book, _Genesis of a Music_, was originally published
> in 1947 or 1949 (i'm not sure which), and is now a rare
> collector's item.
>
> the revised and expanded 2nd edition, the last thing Partch
> completed just before he died, was published in 1974.
>
> the original printing of that 2nd edition, which i have,
> has a nice center spread of color photos of his instruments
> on glossy paper ... which, in fact, is the main thing that
> attracted to the book, since at the time i bought it i had
> absolutely no idea who he was or what just-intonation was.
>
> it went out of print in the 1980s, then was reprinted in
> the late 1990s, but this time the center spread of photos
> was done in black and white on non-glossy paper.
>
> that's the best i can do to help you with this question.
>
>
>
> > Any hints on other books to buy?
> >
> > I know a lot about the basic theory, and I'm interested in
> > taking it further, I see there's no rich literature about it,
> > I see they tend to be superficial and focus only on the history
> > of temperament from 18th century to 12EQ, is that right? My
> > main interest is on the 20th century researches, like Xenakis,
> > Wendy Carlos, Partch, Bohlen-Pierce, is there anything about
> > it, or just what´s on the web?
>
>
>
> yikes! ... you need to take a look at this:
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/doc/bib.html
>
>
>
> in addition (tooting my own horn), i think you'll find my
> online Dictionary of Tuning Terms very useful:
>
> http://sonic-arts.org/dict
>

***To be absolutely fair to Alex, we should probably mention that
*many* great books on tuning are currently out of print.

This is an unfortunately circumstance, but it seems that practically
*every* book on tuning of interest that I've purchased has been out
of print... (Except, I guess, _Genesis..._ but that *was* out of
print... :)

That doesn't mean they are unobtainable; it just means it takes a
little work to find some of them...

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Friday 24 October 2003 10:35 pm, monz wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > if you asked me two years ago, here are the book recommendations i
> > would have given you -- they still hold good for the most part:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_29874.html#30353
>
> paul, what's up? why, when you give lists of recommended
> reading on tuning theory, do you *never* mention any
> of my work? just curious, because i know that you think
> it's valuable, even if you have to add qualifying comments ...
>
>
> -monz

Jumping in---Monz, I personally find your online dictionary to be
awe-inspiringly great, a wonderful resource !!!! (whether or not Paul does)

You should feel like a true expert, because you are. End of story.

Best,
Aaron.

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Aaron,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> On Friday 24 October 2003 10:35 pm, monz wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:

> > > if you asked me two years ago, here are the book .
> > > recommendations i would have given you -- they still
> > > hold good for the most part:
> > >
> > > /tuning/topicId_29874.html#30353
> >
> > paul, what's up? why, when you give lists of recommended
> > reading on tuning theory, do you *never* mention any
> > of my work? just curious, because i know that you think
> > it's valuable, even if you have to add qualifying comments ...
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> Jumping in---Monz, I personally find your online dictionary
> to be awe-inspiringly great, a wonderful resource !!!!
> (whether or not Paul does)
>
> You should feel like a true expert, because you are.
> End of story.
>
> :)

thanks, i really appreciate you kind words of praise.

the only reason i'm making a big deal about it is because
paul *always* jumps to the aid of newbies, and he *always*
has a long list of books and papers for reference but he
*never* says anything about my work.

no really hard feelings against paul ... he and i know
each other off-list and are pretty good friends as well
as colleagues. i just long for his acknowledgment... :(

-monz

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> the only reason i'm making a big deal about it is because
> paul *always* jumps to the aid of newbies, and he *always*
> has a long list of books and papers for reference but he
> *never* says anything about my work.

People sometimes ignore what you might think they'd comment on. I put
up a piece recently, and Paul did not point out it failed to have a
melody. Not only that, Carl didn't tell me it went nowhere, Jon
didn't tell me I shouldn't have mentioned Harry Partch, and Joseph
didn't tell me it was formally old-fashioned.

I think we all appreciate your dictionary. As for your book, I don't
know where to find it, so I havn't read it. Do you think you might
consider putting it online?

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48184

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > the only reason i'm making a big deal about it is because
> > paul *always* jumps to the aid of newbies, and he *always*
> > has a long list of books and papers for reference but he
> > *never* says anything about my work.
>
> People sometimes ignore what you might think they'd comment on. I
put
> up a piece recently, and Paul did not point out it failed to have a
> melody. Not only that, Carl didn't tell me it went nowhere, Jon
> didn't tell me I shouldn't have mentioned Harry Partch, and Joseph
> didn't tell me it was formally old-fashioned.
>
> I think we all appreciate your dictionary. As for your book, I
don't
> know where to find it, so I havn't read it. Do you think you might
> consider putting it online?

***This is funny. It's nice to know we have "pre-programmed"
comments. Much easier that way; it's just "touch and *go*"... :)

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Gene,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> I think we all appreciate your dictionary. As for your book,
> I don't know where to find it, so I havn't read it. Do you
> think you might consider putting it online?

most people around here know the deal with my book, but
for those who don't, here it is ...

this paper:
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/article/article.htm

was the one which i originally wrote in 1993 to explain
what i thought were my new ideas on representing rational
intonation. the main feature is the use of prime-factor
notation in the form of what Gene now calls "monzos".

i found that i couldn't stop adding to this, and so
during the next few years it expanded into my book, which
went thru 4 drafts or "editions" (which i simply made myself
at a copy-shop) up to 1998.

then i started my website in June 1998, and never found
the time to really finish work on the book because all my
efforts since then have gone into the website, principally
the Dictionary of Tuning Terms.

at this stage, i still have to make the lattice-diagrams
for the book by plotting the lattice-points with Excel
and drawing in everything else by hand. so i'm waiting
for the software project to reach the point where it will
make the lattice-diagrams in the format appropriate for
the book, then i'll finish the book once and for all and
publish it.

my company will also have a publishing branch, and we
will publish microtonal scores and tbeoretical books,
the first of which will probably be my book.

BTW, the complete text of my book, without diagrams, is
available in a link at the bottom of this page:

http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/book/book.htm

-monz

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Saturday 25 October 2003 10:48 am, monz wrote:
> hi Gene,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > I think we all appreciate your dictionary. As for your book,
> > I don't know where to find it, so I havn't read it. Do you
> > think you might consider putting it online?
>
> most people around here know the deal with my book, but
> for those who don't, here it is ...
>
>
> this paper:
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/article/article.htm
>
> was the one which i originally wrote in 1993 to explain
> what i thought were my new ideas on representing rational
> intonation. the main feature is the use of prime-factor
> notation in the form of what Gene now calls "monzos".
>
>
> i found that i couldn't stop adding to this, and so
> during the next few years it expanded into my book, which
> went thru 4 drafts or "editions" (which i simply made myself
> at a copy-shop) up to 1998.
>
>
> then i started my website in June 1998, and never found
> the time to really finish work on the book because all my
> efforts since then have gone into the website, principally
> the Dictionary of Tuning Terms.
>
>
> at this stage, i still have to make the lattice-diagrams
> for the book by plotting the lattice-points with Excel
> and drawing in everything else by hand. so i'm waiting
> for the software project to reach the point where it will
> make the lattice-diagrams in the format appropriate for
> the book, then i'll finish the book once and for all and
> publish it.
>
> my company will also have a publishing branch, and we
> will publish microtonal scores and tbeoretical books,
> the first of which will probably be my book.
>
>
>
> BTW, the complete text of my book, without diagrams, is
> available in a link at the bottom of this page:
>
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/book/book.htm
>
>
>
> -monz

hi monz,

FYI, you ought to consider putting your dictionary of tuning terms in hard
copy and publish that as well. I'd buy it!

(never underestimate people's desire for hard-copy in this internet age)

Best,
AKJ

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron K. Johnson" <akjmicro@c...>
wrote:

> hi monz,
>
> FYI, you ought to consider putting your dictionary of
> tuning terms in hard copy and publish that as well. I'd buy it!
>
> (never underestimate people's desire for hard-copy in this
> internet age)

oh, i don't. thanks for the tip anyway.

i already plan to eventually publish the Dictionary --
which will morph into the Encyclopedia of Tuning -- as well
as my collected posts to the tuning lists.

both will probably have to be multi-volume. i'll also
collect all of my other webpages on tuning into a volume.

the Encyclopedia of Tuning will also come bundled with
the software.

-monz

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

> FYI, you ought to consider putting your dictionary of
> tuning terms in hard copy and publish that as well. I'd buy it!
> (never underestimate people's desire for hard-copy in this
> internet age)

>oh, i don't. thanks for the tip anyway.
>i already plan to eventually publish the Dictionary --
>which will morph into the Encyclopedia of Tuning -- as well
>as my collected posts to the tuning lists.
>both will probably have to be multi-volume. i'll also
>collect all of my other webpages on tuning into a volume.
>the Encyclopedia of Tuning will also come bundled with
>the software.

It's extremely difficult to interest publishers in a book on tuning - I've been trying for years. Why? Because publishers are ignorant, and stupidly don't trust information that comes from outside the publishing business. When you approach a publisher with a book proposal, their standard procedure is to check around with other publishers to see whether other books on the same subject are making any money. If no one else has a book out there, that means - in the deaf-and-dumb idiot logic of the publishing world - that there must be no desire for such a book. NO ONE, no one, no one wants to take the risk of having the first book out on any subject - which means, if it were left to the publishers, there would never be any new knowledge in the world. I've sat on panels and publicly excoriated publishers for this stupid policy, only to have them sit and nod like those little plastic dogs in car rear windows. But someone will eventually break the tuning book barrier, just like Rob Schwartz broke the minimalism book barrier a few years ago - for years there couldn't be any books about minimalism ("It's not important music" "It won't last" "No one's interested in reading about that") and then Rob Schwartz persevered anyway, and now there are plenty of books about minimalism. It will happen with tuning, too, and suddenly books on tuning will be hot (exactly the way Hollywood will make a movie about time travel or cross-dressing, and suddenly we'll be deluged with movies about time travel or cross-dressing). Then people will be *begging* music writers for tuning books, so they can compete with other publishing houses. Right now publishers will swear as though it's the plainest common sense in the world that tuning is an esoteric subject with no audience and no future - and they should be contradicted at every opportunity, with confidence and with contempt for the ignorant dinosaurs they are, because the first book that makes it out there will change their tune. And when that time comes, Monz's book will get published in hardcover and will become the important reference work on the subject. I know this will happen. It's just so frustrating waiting for someone to get that first book out there. I'm halfway done with such a book myself, but not in a hurry, because if someone else gets there first I'll have an easier time with mine. And Monz, if you ever want a reference to give a publisher, or someone to call on as a reader to recommend the book, feel free to use my name.

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Kyle,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:

> <snip> ... But someone will eventually break the tuning book
> barrier ... <snip> ... Then people will be *begging* music
> writers for tuning books, so they can compete with other
> publishing houses. ... <snip> ... And when that time comes,
> Monz's book will get published in hardcover and will become
> the important reference work on the subject. I know this
> will happen.

thanks for your confidence and kind words about my work.
(and for your inivitation to be used as a reference)

i guess you missed my recent announcement that my company,
while centered on the software, will also include a
publishing-house as a sideline, focusing on microtonal scores
and books on tuning theory.

my book _JustMusic: A New Harmony_ will be the first book
issued, then hopefully soon after will follow the _Encylopedia
of Tuning_, _Monz: The Tuning List Posts_, my collected
essays on tuning (consisting of my non-Dictionary webpages),
and the score of _A Noiseless Patient Spider_.

and of course we're willing to publish your book too!
(as well as the work of anyone else in the Tuning Community)

-monz

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

Monz said:

>i guess you missed my recent announcement that my company,
>while centered on the software, will also include a
>publishing-house as a sideline, focusing on microtonal scores
>and books on tuning theory.
>
>my book _JustMusic: A New Harmony_ will be the first book
>issued, then hopefully soon after will follow the _Encylopedia
>of Tuning_, _Monz: The Tuning List Posts_, my collected
>essays on tuning (consisting of my non-Dictionary webpages),
>and the score of _A Noiseless Patient Spider_.
>
That's great, Monz. Often it takes a small, new, willing-to-take-risks publisher to get the ball rolling, the way Phaidon did with minimalism. But let's not give up on the goal of cracking the major publishing houses, too. You'd think we'd all be in competition with each other for the book market, but actually, the more of us make it, the easier it will get.

Cheers,

Kyle

🔗Aaron K. Johnson <akjmicro@comcast.net>

On Sunday 26 October 2003 10:41 am, Kyle Gann wrote:
> > FYI, you ought to consider putting your dictionary of
> > tuning terms in hard copy and publish that as well. I'd buy it!
> > (never underestimate people's desire for hard-copy in this
> > internet age)
> >
> >oh, i don't. thanks for the tip anyway.
> >i already plan to eventually publish the Dictionary --
> >which will morph into the Encyclopedia of Tuning -- as well
> >as my collected posts to the tuning lists.
> >both will probably have to be multi-volume. i'll also
> >collect all of my other webpages on tuning into a volume.
> >the Encyclopedia of Tuning will also come bundled with
> >the software.
>
> It's extremely difficult to interest publishers in a book on tuning -
> I've been trying for years. Why? Because publishers are ignorant, and
> stupidly don't trust information that comes from outside the
> publishing business. When you approach a publisher with a book
> proposal, their standard procedure is to check around with other
> publishers to see whether other books on the same subject are making
> any money. If no one else has a book out there, that means - in the
> deaf-and-dumb idiot logic of the publishing world - that there must
> be no desire for such a book. NO ONE, no one, no one wants to take
> the risk of having the first book out on any subject - which means,
> if it were left to the publishers, there would never be any new
> knowledge in the world. I've sat on panels and publicly excoriated
> publishers for this stupid policy, only to have them sit and nod like
> those little plastic dogs in car rear windows. But someone will
> eventually break the tuning book barrier, just like Rob Schwartz
> broke the minimalism book barrier a few years ago - for years there
> couldn't be any books about minimalism ("It's not important music"
> "It won't last" "No one's interested in reading about that") and then
> Rob Schwartz persevered anyway, and now there are plenty of books
> about minimalism. It will happen with tuning, too, and suddenly books
> on tuning will be hot (exactly the way Hollywood will make a movie
> about time travel or cross-dressing, and suddenly we'll be deluged
> with movies about time travel or cross-dressing). Then people will
> be *begging* music writers for tuning books, so they can compete with
> other publishing houses. Right now publishers will swear as though
> it's the plainest common sense in the world that tuning is an
> esoteric subject with no audience and no future - and they should be
> contradicted at every opportunity, with confidence and with contempt
> for the ignorant dinosaurs they are, because the first book that
> makes it out there will change their tune.

All true, Kyle, and furthermore, we have an excellent example historically in
the phenomenon of chaos theory in popular science writers. Remember how
fractals got started? It was an explosion, a literal cultural paradigm shift,
and we are still in the wake of the 'chaos zeitgeist'. One can always tell
when an idea has taken hold of a culture -- you will see it on T-shirts, and
the common folk will spout-off terminology they don't *really* understand, as
one can tell by the context (or mis-context) in which it is used.

Hey, maybe we can make tuning a 'next big thing' (I'm not sure I would like
that, to be honest, in spite of the fact that the publishing problems Kyle
describes might be easier) by making more and more T-shirts (doing the
contrapositive -- sorry if that the wrong logic term for it). They could say
"Kiss me - I'm into 1/4 comma meantone" or "more notes per octave = more
fun"...who knows!!!

Paste you T-shirt entries here: (perhaps we can hold a slogan contest?) ;)

1.
2.
3.
etc.

Best,
AKJ

🔗Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>

Aaron said:

>Hey, maybe we can make tuning a 'next big thing' (I'm not sure I would like
>that, to be honest, in spite of the fact that the publishing problems Kyle
>describes might be easier) by making more and more T-shirts (doing the
>contrapositive -- sorry if that the wrong logic term for it). They could say
>"Kiss me - I'm into 1/4 comma meantone" or "more notes per octave = more
>fun"...who knows!!!
>

For sheer esoteric effrontery, I don't know if anyone can beat David Doty's 12th root of 2 with a slash through it. And I've always said, if microtonalists ever take over the academy (with the power of numbers and Nature itself behind them), they'll make the 12-tone wars of the 1970s look like a picnic.

Kyle

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

i'm unplugging the computer right now, so there's not much
more news i can give until it's all over.

the fire right now is only 4 miles (6.4 km) away from my
house, and being spread fast by 60 mph hot desert winds.

i'm saving my butt and my most precious documents.
i'll have to communicate with you guys later.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >hello all,
> >
> >i know this is essentially off-topic, but i'll reach the
> >largest tuning audience on this list ...
> >
> >for those of you who don't know already, San Diego is burning.
> >
> >over 100,000 acres have already burned since last night
> >in San Diego County. i'm certain that at least 2 of my
> >students no longer have a house.
> >
> >this fire is spreading so fast, i'm not waiting any longer.
> >i'm packing up my scores and books right now and loading
> >them into the car. i don't want to be caught unprepared
> >if i have to evacuate, and the way this fire is travelling
> >it looks like it will be at my doorstep in a few hours.
> >
> >
> >-monz
>
> Wow monz, please keep us posted.
>
> -Carl

🔗Dante Rosati <dante@interport.net>

Re: Three cheers for monz !!!! (was: tuning books to bso how did that
Isacoff guy get his book published?

Dante
-----Original Message-----
From: Kyle Gann [mailto:kgann@earthlink.net]
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:41 AM
To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [tuning] Re: Three cheers for monz !!!! (was: tuning books to
buy)

> FYI, you ought to consider putting your dictionary of
> tuning terms in hard copy and publish that as well. I'd buy it!
> (never underestimate people's desire for hard-copy in this
> internet age)

It's extremely difficult to interest publishers in a book on tuning - I've
been trying for years. Why? Because publishers are ignorant, and stupidly
don't trust information that comes from outside the publishing business.
When you approach a publisher with a book proposal, their standard procedure
is to check around with other publishers to see whether other books on the
same subject are making any money. If no one else has a book out there, that
means - in the deaf-and-dumb idiot logic of the publishing world - that
there must be no desire for such a book. NO ONE, no one, no one wants to
take the risk of having the first book out on any subject - which means, if
it were left to the publishers, there would never be any new knowledge in
the world. I've sat on panels and publicly excoriated publishers for this
stupid policy, only to have them sit and nod like those little plastic dogs
in car rear windows. But someone will eventually break the tuning book
barrier, just like Rob Schwartz broke the minimalism book barrier a few
years ago - for years there couldn't be any books about minimalism ("It's
not important music" "It won't last" "No one's interested in reading about
that") and then Rob Schwartz persevered anyway, and now there are plenty of
books about minimalism. It will happen with tuning, too, and suddenly books
on tuning will be hot (exactly the way Hollywood will make a movie about
time travel or cross-dressing, and suddenly we'll be deluged with movies
about time travel or cross-dressing). Then people will be *begging* music
writers for tuning books, so they can compete with other publishing houses.
Right now publishers will swear as though it's the plainest common sense in
the world that tuning is an esoteric subject with no audience and no
future - and they should be contradicted at every opportunity, with
confidence and with contempt for the ignorant dinosaurs they are, because
the first book that makes it out there will change their tune. And when that
time comes, Monz's book will get published in hardcover and will become the
important reference work on the subject. I know this will happen. It's just
so frustrating waiting for someone to get that first book out there. I'm
halfway done with such a book myself, but not in a hurry, because if someone
else gets there first I'll have an easier time with mine. And Monz, if you
ever want a reference to give a publisher, or someone to call on as a reader
to recommend the book, feel free to use my name.

Cheers,

Kyle

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT

You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold
for the tuning group.
tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest
mode.
tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual
emails.
tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Paul Erlich <paul@stretch-music.com>

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

Jon here:

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> OH MY GOD!!!!! if anyone does hear from monz, PLEASE LET US KNOW!!!:(:
> (:(

I had not heard that Monz had moved recently, so if he is still in his apt in Normal Heights your worries can be lessened. While tomorrow will still be unpredictable, and resemble hell on Earth in many parts of our county, the area where Joe and I live is not in any imminent danger. If, forbid, there is a firestorm of biblical proportions that moves from the mountains to the sea, we are all in that famous creek. I am hopeful, but that is all it is; Monz was being cautious, which no one can disagree with. I just returned home in my van after helping a friend evacuate his house. Words are pretty useless at this point.

Keep us in your thoughts.

Jon

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48200

>> Monz's book will get published in hardcover and will become the
> important reference work on the subject. I know this will happen.
> It's just so frustrating waiting for someone to get that first book
> out there. I'm halfway done with such a book myself, but not in a
> hurry, because if someone else gets there first I'll have an easier
> time with mine. And Monz, if you ever want a reference to give a
> publisher, or someone to call on as a reader to recommend the book,
> feel free to use my name.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Kyle

***Just to reiterate my previous comments to the people wanting
references on tuning: virtually *every* book on tuning that I wanted
to read was out of print, with the exception of Harry Partch's
_Genesis_ which *was* out of print...

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48201

> thanks for your confidence and kind words about my work.
> (and for your inivitation to be used as a reference)
>
> i guess you missed my recent announcement that my company,
> while centered on the software, will also include a
> publishing-house as a sideline, focusing on microtonal scores
> and books on tuning theory.
>

***I believe Kyle is talking about *large distribution* publishing
concerns here, such as Alfred A. Knopf which published Stuart
Isacoff's _Temperament_.

Well, I guess that's *one* book on tuning that made it to the "big
time..."

But, I don't see the large-scale clamoring as yet... :)

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48216

> Jon here:
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > OH MY GOD!!!!! if anyone does hear from monz, PLEASE LET US
KNOW!!!:(:
> > (:(
>
> I had not heard that Monz had moved recently, so if he is still in
his apt in Normal Heights your worries can be lessened. While
tomorrow will still be unpredictable, and resemble hell on Earth in
many parts of our county, the area where Joe and I live is not in any
imminent danger. If, forbid, there is a firestorm of biblical
proportions that moves from the mountains to the sea, we are all in
that famous creek. I am hopeful, but that is all it is; Monz was
being cautious, which no one can disagree with. I just returned home
in my van after helping a friend evacuate his house. Words are pretty
useless at this point.
>
> Keep us in your thoughts.
>
> Jon

***Best wishes to Monz and Jon. Please keep us posted!

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_48159.html#48216
>
>
> > Jon here:
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > >
> > > OH MY GOD!!!!! if anyone does hear from monz,
> > > PLEASE LET US KNOW!!!:(:
> > > (:(
> >
> > I had not heard that Monz had moved recently, so if he
> > is still in his apt in Normal Heights your worries can
> > be lessened. While tomorrow will still be unpredictable,
> > and resemble hell on Earth in many parts of our county,
> > the area where Joe and I live is not in any imminent danger.
> > If, forbid, there is a firestorm of biblical proportions
> > that moves from the mountains to the sea, we are all in
> > that famous creek. I am hopeful, but that is all it is;
> > Monz was being cautious, which no one can disagree with.
> > I just returned home in my van after helping a friend
> > evacuate his house. Words are pretty useless at this point.
> >
> > Keep us in your thoughts.
> >
> > Jon
>
>
> ***Best wishes to Monz and Jon. Please keep us posted!

yes, everyone, i am OK. it looks like i'll be able to
spend the night in my own bed peacefully.

but at the time that i wrote that first post and unplugged
my computer, it really did look like there was a good chance
of the fire reaching my neighborhood in a matter of hours.

and things are very bad all around the perimeter of the city,
where is where the majority of my students live. the last
image which i just saw on TV an hour ago was of a street sign
i just passed at my last lesson on Friday at the end of my
student's block ... the area around that street sign was
completely engulfed in flames and i doubt very much that
his house was left undamaged.

anyway, most of my CDs and books and be replaced ... but i
had to pack up my own work and leave it by the door, just
in case the police come by and tell us we have 10 minutes
to leave.

-monz
... corresponding from the front lines with Jon

🔗gooseplex <cfaah@eiu.edu>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:

> if microtonalists ever take over the academy (with the power of
> numbers and Nature itself behind them), they'll make the
12-tone wars
> of the 1970s look like a picnic.
>
> Kyle

Regarding the issue of publishing and microtonality, I feel that
what is needed much more than "popular" books on the subject
is at least one adequate textbook - or a series of textbooks on
various topics in microtonality. Some adequate history texts
would be nice, for example. I'm not an historian, so that's not the
book I want to write. I keep a copy of Brian mcLaren's "A Brief
history of Microtonality" on reserve in our library (Eastern Illinois
University). My own writing consciously draws from established
Western traditions (which will always be treasured in academia)
to introduce new approaches to notation and new instruments
with the aim of revitalizing music education - music theory,
composition, ear training, and performance practices. If
education does not change, I feel there is little hope for success.

Aaron Hunt

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
>
> > if microtonalists ever take over the academy (with the power of
> > numbers and Nature itself behind them), they'll make the
> 12-tone wars
> > of the 1970s look like a picnic.
>
> > Kyle

There is a great sematic problem here in that " microtonality" included varied diverse approaches to the subject of tuning. many unreconcilable to each other. 20 years ago free inprov people were opposed to microtones , now they play the same thing and call it microtonality. It has become a big word game and i imagine by the time its gets to the mainstream, and the academies, any real meaning will be lost. It will get there because the cul de sac they find themselves in is starting to become obvious. m"microtonality" offers a temporary escape by creating the possibility of old wine in new bottles. That it has already
created a specialized language far ahead of any real necessity or musical practice will appeal to those who wish to set up an elite.

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗gooseplex <cfaah@eiu.edu>

Kraig wrote:

<< There is a great sematic problem here in that " microtonality"
included varied diverse approaches to the subject of tuning.
many unreconcilable to each other. 20 years ago free inprov
people were opposed to microtones , now they play the same
thing and call it microtonality. It has become a big word game
and i imagine by the time its gets to the mainstream, and the
academies, any real meaning will be lost. It will get there
because the cul de sac they find themselves in is starting to
become obvious. m"microtonality" offers a temporary escape by
creating the possibility of old wine in new bottles. >>

Sure, tuning is as old as the hills, but nobody has coherently
codified its vast tonal resources, or created the new bottles, so to
speak.

<<That it has already created a specialized language far ahead
of any real necessity or musical practice will appeal to those who
wish to set up an elite. >>

The cart is before the horse; I agree, but I think it is absolutely
necessary to invent, expand, create and codify the language. You
may be suggesting that the ivory tower mentality of serialism
which academia was (past tense intentional) so infamous for
could be repeated with microtonality. I don't think elite
movements of any kind by 'academic' composers are very likely
now or in the future; your observation may be more appropriate
to somewhat anti-academic 'elites' such as those fostered by the
tuning lists. Efforts in academia must be quite of the opposite
aim - to level the playing field and educate all musicians in the
relevant issues.

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Hi Aaron!

>
> From: "gooseplex" <cfaah@eiu.edu>
> Subject: academia and microtonality
>
>
> Sure, tuning is as old as the hills, but nobody has coherently
> codified its vast tonal resources, or created the new bottles, so to
> speak.

There are plently of new bottles. the diamond of partch is just one and even more so the Eikosany of Erv Wilson or the scales of Mt. Meru all point toward new directions. The Eikosany in particular advanced the whole field by making non tonal structures held together by consonances. not to mention the unique role that each note partakes in such a structure. but you can see more on this here
http://anaphoria.com/cps.PDF
But every single on the the scales are new if we are sensitive to what they do. If one is really listening to what the tones do psychologically, it automatically leads to new melodies and harmonies.
instruments that we used today evolved their timbres according to the scale used, it seems akward to force them to use things they were designed to use. .

>
>
> <<That it has already created a specialized language far ahead
> of any real necessity or musical practice will appeal to those who
> wish to set up an elite. >>
>
> The cart is before the horse; I agree, but I think it is absolutely
> necessary to invent, expand, create and codify the language. You
> may be suggesting that the ivory tower mentality of serialism
> which academia was (past tense intentional) so infamous for
> could be repeated with microtonality.

I believe such a thing has already happened. Let us look at the number of terms introduced by Partch, Young, Riley, Yasser, and Novaro for instance compared to those in question. The danger i see is that the language will predetermine the direction the field will develop than through actual music. i am not saying the language thing should be abandoned, but we should keep in mind it is expanding or narrowing the way of thinking about it.

> I don't think elite
> movements of any kind by 'academic' composers are very likely
> now or in the future; your observation may be more appropriate
> to somewhat anti-academic 'elites' such as those fostered by the
> tuning lists.

such as?

> Efforts in academia must be quite of the opposite
> aim - to level the playing field and educate all musicians in the
> relevant issues.

I don't see where the aims of academia must be anything. or in the past had any notion of a level playing field. It seems to attempt to nip as many ideas in the bud it can and if it survives all percesutions are ignoring of it, it starts to claim it as its own. Kind of like the Catholic church and Paganism

>
>
> AH
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗gooseplex <cfaah@eiu.edu>

Kraig!

<<> > Sure, tuning is as old as the hills, but nobody has
coherently
> > codified its vast tonal resources, or created the new bottles,
so to
> > speak.
>
> There are plently of new bottles. >>

Yes, I misspoke there. There are indeed plenty. I should have
said is that nobody has really succeeded in _selling their new
bottles, esp. to academia. You mention Partch, who offered
possibly the best example of an anti-academic polemic.

<<> instruments that we used today evolved their timbres
according to the scale used, it seems akward to force them to
use things they were designed to use. .>>

I advocate the development and use of new instruments and
new methods of notation. Strings, voices, and trombones do well
enough already.

<<That it has already created a specialized language far ahead
> > of any real necessity or musical practice will appeal to those
who
> > wish to set up an elite. >>
> >
> > The cart is before the horse; I agree, but I think it is absolutely
> > necessary to invent, expand, create and codify the language.
You
> > may be suggesting that the ivory tower mentality of serialism
> > which academia was (past tense intentional) so infamous
for
> > could be repeated with microtonality.
>
> I believe such a thing has already happened. Let us look at the
number of terms introduced by Partch, Young, Riley, Yasser, and
Novaro for instance compared to those in question. The danger i
see is that the language will predetermine the direction the field
will develop than through actual music. i am not saying the
language thing should be abandoned, but we should keep in
mind it is expanding or narrowing the way of thinking about it.>>

I don't really see how this constitutes an academic elite.
Certainly the terms we use can influence creativity in the field, but
I don't think this is a bad thing or that it's that much to be
otherwise concerned about. Present terms in theoretical physics
will influence future theories in that field, and that is just the way
of things.

> > I don't think elite
> > movements of any kind by 'academic' composers are very
likely
> > now or in the future; your observation may be more
appropriate
> > to somewhat anti-academic 'elites' such as those fostered by
the
> > tuning lists.
>
> such as?

... is this list not somewhat elitist?

> > Efforts in academia must be quite of the opposite
> > aim - to level the playing field and educate all musicians in
the
> > relevant issues.
>
> I don't see where the aims of academia must be anything. or in
the past had any notion of a level playing field. It seems to
attempt to nip as many ideas in the bud it can and if it survives all
percesutions are ignoring of it, it starts to claim it as its own.
Kind of like the Catholic church and Paganism>>

The point of earning an undergraduate degree is not to
overthrow the establishment, but to receive the tradition. Each
person is free to decide if the tradition is worthwhile for them. All I
mean is that a university degree is supposed to represent
something across the board for a given profession - this is the
level playing field I refer to. I'm suggesting that the establishment
should equip its students to deal sensibly with microtonality in
practical terms. Musicians who earn degrees in music are
supposed to receive the background they need in order to
maintain professional careers in music. Perhaps this could be
seen as an elite of college educated musicians; I'm not sure
where you're coming from on this point.

Best regards,
Aaron Hunt

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "gooseplex" <cfaah@e...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48233

>
> Yes, I misspoke there. There are indeed plenty. I should have
> said is that nobody has really succeeded in _selling their new
> bottles, esp. to academia.

***I wonder if this is really the case. Seems to me that up at
Columbia (as evidenced by Chris Bailey, whose music I like, by the
way) there was plenty of excitement about microtonality
in "academia" --- and Columbia qualifies as much as anyplace!

It was exciting to them as long as it could be sufficiently
quantified, serialized or computerized...

[Not that I have any particular ax to grind against quantification,
serialization or computerization in composition... but it's not my
own *particular* way in music...]

🔗David Beardsley <db@biink.com>

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "gooseplex" <cfaah@e...> wrote:
>
>/tuning/topicId_48159.html#48233
>
> >
>>Yes, I misspoke there. There are indeed plenty. I should have >>said is that nobody has really succeeded in _selling their new >>bottles, esp. to academia. >> >>
>
>
>***I wonder if this is really the case. Seems to me that up at >Columbia (as evidenced by Chris Bailey, whose music I like, by the >way) there was plenty of excitement about microtonality >in "academia" --- and Columbia qualifies as much as anyplace!
>

Yesterday on the Columbia U. radio station, WKCR, James Fei hosted
three hours of La Monte Young. And...they have hosted a Harry Partch
festival in the recent past. One could make the argument that the
sation and the school are two different things, but James is a
graduate student and teaches a class (computer or electronic
music, I forget what).

Maybe Johnny Reinhard has a comment about Columbia.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 10/28/2003 9:02:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, db@biink.com
writes:

> Yesterday on the Columbia U. radio station, WKCR, James Fei hosted
> three hours of La Monte Young. And...they have hosted a Harry Partch
> festival in the recent past. One could make the argument that the
> sation and the school are two different things, but James is a
> graduate student and teaches a class (computer or electronic
> music, I forget what).
>
> Maybe Johnny Reinhard has a comment about Columbia.
>

WKCR Radio and Columbia University are indeed two different things. Ever
since the radio station took the side of the students during the Viet Nam war
protests, the station has been squelched and undernourished. When someone gets
too much import on the station, they inevitably get sidelined. Ocassionally,
an individual is placed in both positions, as I was, and that is a good thing.
But it can never last very long. New York is very lucky to have WKCR radio.
Columbia, on the other hand, is quite repressive to music, IMO.

best, Johnny