Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Septatonic Music

Dear friends in music,

this is how I found the Septatonic Scale.
Actually, I started thinking about it when I encountered the music of Paul Hindemith during my school time. I was fascinated then of sound his music had, and started to study his „Unterweisung im Tonsatz“, (Tuition in Setting Music) to find out how he got to his specific contrapunctual style.
There I found that he first had explored the musical matter in order to create a new „temperament“, based on derivation of harmonics and corresponding sub harmonics.
But when he arrived to the seventh harmonic, he suddenly stopped to apply his method, stating that including this one would create a chaos, as we would have to take also the seventh harmonic of the seventh harmonic, and so on.
So I thought, what happens if I just do that ?
I thought, if I set the seventh harmonic into relation to the next upper octave, I’ll get the ratio 8/7 (or equally 7/8), and from there the next step is 64/49 etc. Now this interval is even larger than the major second, so I divided it by 2.
The natural wide second I called Septaton, and thus the Septatonic Scale came into being.
I did a lot of calculation to establish the intervals and pitches, not knowing there is so beautiful microtonal software in the net.
Soon after starting to use a computer, I finally found Manuel op de Couls „Scala“ software, and Peter Frazers „Midicode Synthesizer“, to enable me to create music in that system.
Yes, it is a really important point that interpretation of microtonal works by musicians is something far different from computer music, but by the aid of the machine, we can train our ears and get a first impression of the sounds.
This is the actual stage where I find myself now...

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Wernerlinden@aol.com

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Werner,

it sounds to me like you're trying to send attachments
to the tuning list. Yahoo does not allow that.

when we want to share files we put them in the "Files"
section of the list ... but this one is pretty full,
so we've made a new group called tuning_files

/tuning_files

which has a whole new 20 MB of space in its "Files".
just ask any of the moderators to approve you for
membership, then upload your files there.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:
> Hi all, ye friends in musicke,
>
> got upload completed, but received MAILER-daemon claiming the
message was
> exceeding the size limit,
> Do I have to send this stuff individually to all your addreses ?
> If yes, please the interested members send me in their e-mail
address, maybe
> I can
> arrange new sending from my remote PC at business place on monday
morning
> (That worked once...).
> Otherwise, please let me know if you could download ot from the
> tuning@yahoogroups.com
> server.
> And remember: at least twice... :)
>
> Bye
>
> Werner

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 11/8/03 1:52 PM, alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Werner,
>
> If you want to make many people unhappy, then email all of the 600
> people on the list your large file. Best is to upload to your own
> website and post to the list pointing there. Second best is to upload
> to the Yahoo tuning list files section.

Another alternative is to ask someone else to put it on their website. But
the yahoo file area is a place to start, lacking that.

Which brings me to thinking out loud about tunings list server issues
again...

I'm still wondering about a permanent domain for the tunings list. If we
were to just get a domain (which could *eventually* be used for many various
things, including mailing lists, etc.) the domain could live on through
various hosts and provide file upload urls that will can stay in the list
archives and remain meaningful. I personally think permanent urls are a
worthy thing, and the sooner we go for that, the better. The we can migrate
the email list "any time".

Monz - can we pick a domain now that you would host later? I think it would
be good to have a tunings list domain. Note that subdomains of that domain
(e.g. uploads.tuningsgroup.com) could be used to allow different aspects to
be hosted separately, which I think is a good flexibility, for various
reasons, but I'll avoid getting into more detail prematurely.

-Kurt

>
> Gabor
>
>
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Wernerlinden@a... wrote:
>> Hi all, ye friends in musicke,
>>
>> got upload completed, but received MAILER-daemon claiming the
> message was
>> exceeding the size limit,
>> Do I have to send this stuff individually to all your addreses ?
>> If yes, please the interested members send me in their e-mail
> address, maybe
>> I can
>> arrange new sending from my remote PC at business place on monday
> morning
>> (That worked once...).
>> Otherwise, please let me know if you could download ot from the
>> tuning@yahoogroups.com
>> server.
>> And remember: at least twice... :)
>>
>> Bye
>>
>> Werner
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Kurt,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:

> Monz - can we pick a domain now that you would host later?
> I think it would be good to have a tunings list domain.
> Note that subdomains of that domain (e.g.
> uploads.tuningsgroup.com) could be used to allow different
> aspects to be hosted separately, which I think is a good
> flexibility, for various reasons, but I'll avoid getting
> into more detail prematurely.

my hope is that list subscribers will want to have the
tuning lists reside permanently on my company website,
which is tonalsoft.com.

there's nothing there yet, so no use looking. but we
have the domain and i hope to have all of my tuning webpages,
revamped as the Encyclopedia of Tuning, residing there
within a few months.

yes, it would be a corporate sponsorship. but i'm hoping
that most list-members can go along with that.

at any rate, there *will* be tuning lists sponsored on the
Tonalsoft website, whether this list or a new one, and my
attention will obviously have to be devoted to those lists,
and i will no longer be participating on any others.

-monz

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48091.html#48405

> on 11/8/03 1:52 PM, alternativetuning <alternativetuning@y...>
wrote:
>
> > Werner,
> >
> > If you want to make many people unhappy, then email all of the 600
> > people on the list your large file. Best is to upload to your own
> > website and post to the list pointing there. Second best is to
upload
> > to the Yahoo tuning list files section.
>
> Another alternative is to ask someone else to put it on their
website. But
> the yahoo file area is a place to start, lacking that.
>
> Which brings me to thinking out loud about tunings list server
issues
> again...
>
> I'm still wondering about a permanent domain for the tunings list.
If we
> were to just get a domain (which could *eventually* be used for
many various
> things, including mailing lists, etc.) the domain could live on
through
> various hosts and provide file upload urls that will can stay in
the list
> archives and remain meaningful. I personally think permanent urls
are a
> worthy thing, and the sooner we go for that, the better. The we
can migrate
> the email list "any time".
>
> Monz - can we pick a domain now that you would host later? I think
it would
> be good to have a tunings list domain. Note that subdomains of
that domain
> (e.g. uploads.tuningsgroup.com) could be used to allow different
aspects to
> be hosted separately, which I think is a good flexibility, for
various
> reasons, but I'll avoid getting into more detail prematurely.
>
> -Kurt
>

***Hello Kurt,

There were various attempts to move the Tuning List from Yahoogroups
about a year or so before you started posting and they all failed
miserably. As it turns out, the Yahoo interface was more flexible
and usable than any of the others, so people just stayed put.

Not to say it isn't possible, but just to remind that attempts at
moving the list have failed more than once...

J. Pehrson

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 11/9/03 6:31 AM, Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com> wrote:

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_48091.html#48405
>
>> I'm still wondering about a permanent domain for the tunings list.
>> If we were to just get a domain (which could *eventually* be used for
>> many various things, including mailing lists, etc.) the domain could live on
>> through various hosts and provide file upload urls that will can stay in
>> the list archives and remain meaningful. I personally think permanent urls
>> are a worthy thing, and the sooner we go for that, the better. The we
>> can migrate the email list "any time".
>
> ***Hello Kurt,
>
> There were various attempts to move the Tuning List from Yahoogroups
> about a year or so before you started posting and they all failed
> miserably. As it turns out, the Yahoo interface was more flexible
> and usable than any of the others, so people just stayed put.
>
> Not to say it isn't possible, but just to remind that attempts at
> moving the list have failed more than once...
>
> J. Pehrson

I was suggesting two things right now:

a permament tunings-list domain with a multi-purpose future in mind

hosting for a file upload area under that domain

I wasn't trying to get into the issue of moving the tunings mailing list at
this point. But I also believe that that can and probably should happen at
some point. If yahoo is flexible, its flexibility did not seem helpful to
me. I have joined many mailing lists and *never* had as much difficulty as
I had with yahoo, though actually the problems were with the capabilities
accessed via the web, and not with the email-based list itself.

In spite of Monz's generosity regarding corporate sponsorship, I would still
urge for a non-affiliated domain for the tunings group. But more on that in
a separate message.

-Kurt

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 11/9/03 5:00 AM, monz <monz@attglobal.net> wrote:

> hi Kurt,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
>
>> Monz - can we pick a domain now that you would host later?
>> I think it would be good to have a tunings list domain.
>> Note that subdomains of that domain (e.g.
>> uploads.tuningsgroup.com) could be used to allow different
>> aspects to be hosted separately, which I think is a good
>> flexibility, for various reasons, but I'll avoid getting
>> into more detail prematurely.
>
> my hope is that list subscribers will want to have the
> tuning lists reside permanently on my company website,
> which is tonalsoft.com.
>
> there's nothing there yet, so no use looking. but we
> have the domain and i hope to have all of my tuning webpages,
> revamped as the Encyclopedia of Tuning, residing there
> within a few months.
>
> yes, it would be a corporate sponsorship. but i'm hoping
> that most list-members can go along with that.

Well let me just constrast two different options.
(1) using tonalsoft.com exactly as you propose
(2) using a second domain in additional to tonalsoft.com and hosting that
domain as a gift to the tunings list community. The tunings lists,
archives, and file upload areas would go in the separate tunings list
domain.

What is the difference between these two options to you?

You are a key member of this community and your presence on the tunings list
will help to promote your company. I am all for promoting your company,
expecially considering your generosity to this community.

I also see a potential political problem with the tunings list as an
independent semi-academic community being affiliated with a particular
company's domain. It could conceivably be sort of like having audio DSP
discussion groups hosted on the steinberg.de website. Except no I would
never be likely to compare Monz's company with steinberg, so this is an
exhaggeration.

The advantage of using yahoogroups is that it is pretty much guaranteed to
be a politcally neutral situation. As I reflect on alternatives, besides
issues of stability of hosting, no matter who else offered hosting, there
would be biases of various kinds involved. If I were to offer hosting, I
would have to ask who would want me hosting anything? How would they know
how my biases might interfere with the good of the community? What
guarantee would they have?

So here is the thing: I would hate to *ever* see the tunings list community
fragment for political reasons. I would want to insure against this
somehow. One way to achieve this is to have a separaate domain, for Monz to
agree to host that domain, and to agree to let it go free if the need ever
came up. The details could be worked out for how to make this possible at
the technical level.

I hope bringing this up doesn't create discomfort - well it has - I am
uncomfortable. I just want to say things as I see it. I trust Monz
implicitly and see no signs of anything but ebullient generosity. So I
suppose I am coming from something like a matter of principle here, and
"principle" in that sense can be a tired old creature. But another way to
say it is that it is a good thing to avoid "forms" that are potentially
problematic, when there are alternatives.

However, it is also fair that as long as Monz/tonalsoft are doing hosting
that they get something back for it. I would rather that exclude the
sharing of a domain. Anything else, but not that--I hate to say it--as a
matter of principle.

(Yikes.)

-Kurt

> at any rate, there *will* be tuning lists sponsored on the
> Tonalsoft website, whether this list or a new one, and my
> attention will obviously have to be devoted to those lists,
> and i will no longer be participating on any others.
>
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for
> the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Kurt,

thanks for your detailed response on this.

i really don't want to get into too detailed of a discussion
on it just yet, because Tonalsoft is not ready to host any
lists yet. we have to concentrate on getting the software
ready for release first, then all the website stuff comes
later.

i understand perfectly well your reservations about corporate
sponsorship, especially from the politial angle. i would
feel that way myself, if it were not my own company offering
the hosting.

our hope, of course, is that tuning-list members will, at
least in the beginning, be the primary users of our software,
and that list members will use the software to create the
lattice-diagrams and other graphics which are posted to
describe the tuning systems being discussed.

of course, there would be many lists, as there are at present,
including one which is dedicated to discussions regarding the
use of the software itself. but i would like to preserve this
"main" tuning-list as well.

the hope is that the software will be so comprehensive that
pretty much everyone here will want to use it, and thus,
even if politically there is some reservation to having the
list hosted by Tonalsoft, in practice there wouldn't be much
point in having it hosted elsewhere.

i'm really sorry if this rubs people the wrong way, but
my energies from now on will have to be focused on my company
and what it produces ... which, aside from the software,
will be pretty much everything that i'm already producing now:
compositions, CDs, scores, essays, books, webpages, etc.

Tonalsoft will also be offering itself as a publishing company
for CDs, books, and scores, too, so hopefully many others
will become "part of the family".

also, please be aware that the version of the software which
will be released in early 2004 will only be *version 1.0*.
we plan to keep releasing updates for years to come as we
keep improving it.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> on 11/9/03 5:00 AM, monz <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > hi Kurt,
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kurt Bigler <kkb@b...> wrote:
> >
> >> Monz - can we pick a domain now that you would host later?
> >> I think it would be good to have a tunings list domain.
> >> Note that subdomains of that domain (e.g.
> >> uploads.tuningsgroup.com) could be used to allow different
> >> aspects to be hosted separately, which I think is a good
> >> flexibility, for various reasons, but I'll avoid getting
> >> into more detail prematurely.
> >
> > my hope is that list subscribers will want to have the
> > tuning lists reside permanently on my company website,
> > which is tonalsoft.com.
> >
> > there's nothing there yet, so no use looking. but we
> > have the domain and i hope to have all of my tuning webpages,
> > revamped as the Encyclopedia of Tuning, residing there
> > within a few months.
> >
> > yes, it would be a corporate sponsorship. but i'm hoping
> > that most list-members can go along with that.
>
> Well let me just constrast two different options.
> (1) using tonalsoft.com exactly as you propose
> (2) using a second domain in additional to tonalsoft.com
> and hosting that domain as a gift to the tunings list
> community. The tunings lists, archives, and file upload
> areas would go in the separate tunings list domain.
>
> What is the difference between these two options to you?
>
> You are a key member of this community and your presence
> on the tunings list will help to promote your company.
> I am all for promoting your company, expecially considering
> your generosity to this community.
>
> I also see a potential political problem with the tunings
> list as an independent semi-academic community being
> affiliated with a particular company's domain. It could
> conceivably be sort of like having audio DSP discussion groups
> hosted on the steinberg.de website. Except no I would
> never be likely to compare Monz's company with steinberg,
> so this is an exhaggeration.
>
> The advantage of using yahoogroups is that it is pretty much
> guaranteed to be a politcally neutral situation. As I reflect
> on alternatives, besides issues of stability of hosting, no
> matter who else offered hosting, there would be biases of
> various kinds involved. If I were to offer hosting, I
> would have to ask who would want me hosting anything? How
> would they know how my biases might interfere with the good
> of the community? What guarantee would they have?
>
> So here is the thing: I would hate to *ever* see the tunings
> list community fragment for political reasons. I would want
> to insure against this somehow. One way to achieve this is
> to have a separaate domain, for Monz to agree to host that
> domain, and to agree to let it go free if the need ever
> came up. The details could be worked out for how to make
> this possible at the technical level.
>
> I hope bringing this up doesn't create discomfort - well it
> has - I am uncomfortable. I just want to say things as I
> see it. I trust Monz implicitly and see no signs of
> anything but ebullient generosity. So I suppose I am coming
> from something like a matter of principle here, and
> "principle" in that sense can be a tired old creature.
> But another way to say it is that it is a good thing to
> avoid "forms" that are potentially problematic, when there
> are alternatives.
>
> However, it is also fair that as long as Monz/tonalsoft are
> doing hosting that they get something back for it. I would
> rather that exclude the sharing of a domain. Anything else,
> but not that--I hate to say it--as a matter of principle.
>
> (Yikes.)
>
> -Kurt

🔗kraig grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

As on of the non profits conmnnected here, we would be more than willing to be channel for funds to be donated, regardless of where it was put up to. And/or we could set it up if someone knew how as an exstention of outr already existing site, but would have to purchase not space or move to a different host.
(It really seems fine here except for files and maybe that alone would be moved)

>
> Message: 13
> Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 01:42:34 -0800
> From: Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>
> Subject:
>
> I rather like the idea of a nonprofit. There are already several
> nonprofits in our extended family here, but having one with the
> sole purpose of serving the needs of our online community seems
> like a good idea to me. Then, if tonalsoft wanted, and if it
> incorporates, it could make a tax-deductible donation to the
> nonprofit. I will also make a donation. We'll also need a board
> we can all agree on, and somebody or group of bodies to do a little
> footwork.
>
> Another option would be to seek academic affiliation... perhaps at
> Mills again...
>
> -Carl
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

🔗Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com>

on 11/10/03 8:58 AM, monz <monz@attglobal.net> wrote:

> hi Kurt,
>
>
> thanks for your detailed response on this.
>
> i really don't want to get into too detailed of a discussion
> on it just yet, because Tonalsoft is not ready to host any
> lists yet.

We don't need to get into unnecessary details, but because you are not ready
it is an ideal time to talk about it. If you were ready now it might create
more pressure for many of us.

> we have to concentrate on getting the software
> ready for release first, then all the website stuff comes
> later.
>
> i understand perfectly well your reservations about corporate
> sponsorship, especially from the politial angle. i would
> feel that way myself, if it were not my own company offering
> the hosting.

AKJ made a good point, that he trusts you to do what is good for the
community implicitly. I agree we can trust you to do what you believe is
good. So this is one of the reasons to discuss it - to make sure your
beliefs are well-informed.

I want to get straight to the most important essence of the matter: can you
acknowledge that moving the lists etc to tonalsoft might *not* be the best
thing for the community, and that it actually warants discussion? Can you
move forward with us without making any assumptions about the form it should
take? I know you have a dream and we are part of it. Read into that what
you like and you may get my point.

(Apologies being a relative newbie to the list, not much of a contributor
yet, and saying "we" and "us" here. The fact is I see the tunings list in
my future - it is also part of my dream, and I want to take care that it is
sustained.)

So while your dream is good, I think it needs more "definition". I think it
is too homogenous in your mind, relatively new to you and not sorted out. I
challenge you to sort out your relationship to this community and to
differentiate it from your personal dream.

Also consider one thing: your company could go belly up (especially if any
outside funding is involved) and you could die. This is absolutely how you
have to think about these things. Too much is at stake for an important
community. So you don't even have to get into politics then, to see the
point.

> our hope, of course, is that tuning-list members will, at
> least in the beginning, be the primary users of our software,
> and that list members will use the software to create the
> lattice-diagrams and other graphics which are posted to
> describe the tuning systems being discussed.
>
> of course, there would be many lists, as there are at present,
> including one which is dedicated to discussions regarding the
> use of the software itself. but i would like to preserve this
> "main" tuning-list as well.
>
> the hope is that the software will be so comprehensive that
> pretty much everyone here will want to use it, and thus,
> even if politically there is some reservation to having the
> list hosted by Tonalsoft, in practice there wouldn't be much
> point in having it hosted elsewhere.

I agree with Carl here. I would say because of the risks there would be no
point in having the lists hosted at tonalsoft except for the
tonalsoft-specific lists. And even if you want to host them, using another
domain should be of no consequence. You could advertise that you host the
other domain I am proposing - but you need not own it in order to do that
(nor should you host the DNS) and it is also a good thing to not use any
proprietary technology to serve the other domain, so that if worst came to
worst the domain could be fully up and running within the time it takes for
DNS to change over, as long as good plans are made for this possibility -
and we should be sure to make those plans and test them.

> i'm really sorry if this rubs people the wrong way, but
> my energies from now on will have to be focused on my company
> and what it produces ... which, aside from the software,
> will be pretty much everything that i'm already producing now:
> compositions, CDs, scores, essays, books, webpages, etc.

Yes, and who hosts the non-tonalsoft-specific lists should make no
difference to you then. You can participate in them all the same and if you
do not create "redundant" (no derogatory sense intended) lists then you
would not increase the burden on your time.

> Tonalsoft will also be offering itself as a publishing company
> for CDs, books, and scores, too, so hopefully many others
> will become "part of the family".

Yes, and this is great and obviously *very* needed. Yet it is a separate
point.

-Kurt

> also, please be aware that the version of the software which
> will be released in early 2004 will only be *version 1.0*.
> we plan to keep releasing updates for years to come as we
> keep improving it.
>
>
> -monz

🔗Wernerlinden@aol.com

Monz wrote:

hi Werner,

i'm sorry i took so long to respond to this.
i got it, and in fact, before i read this email,
i just read your last tuning list post and just
finished uploading your file to my website.
http://sonic-arts.org/werner_linden/Septatonic1.mp3

and asked me to comment on the piece.
Here I go:
The piece has no title yet, I think of it as an opening for a suite of 4 or 5 movements, each one concentrating on the "topics" being displayed in the piece you hear:
the "false octaves" in the beginning, the building up of huge chords, counterpoint, wild movements, and exploring into slowly moved chords beginning with 2 notes at a time and coming to maximally 6 notes at a time, using "tonal sounding" chords equally as dissonant ones...
The tuning is the one I recently described as being based on the ratio 8/7, it is an ET dividing this ratio by 2, there are relatively clean fifths, but no octaves, so that with every 10th note you are getting nearby a quartertone "too low", consequently there s no such thing as a "wide" variant from a chord, that one will sound different. E.g. a triad has in its narrow version a nearby neutral third, in the wide version this is clearly a minor third.
For Scala users:
Command: EQUAL 8/7 10 ... but I do not get it together in all details. I'll have to look it up at home.
Manuel was very very helpful in installing this part of stuff.
Thanks again !

And all this with my old CakewalkExpress, Scala, SoundBlaster, AudioMulch, and the WaveEditor from my CD-burning software Nero.
And an old, nearly worn out PC with 48 MB RAM... Processing takes hours then. But it's so much excitement in it, I never will have enough of it. Maybe the other movements will not use so many effects...

Bye
Werner