inner ear

I suppose all tuners and most "normal" people have an inner ear and an inner voice. The inner ear can listen, the inner voice can sing. Perhaps all of our senses have a corresponding inner sense , anyhow we also have an inner eye and an inner imaging.

When we compare the precision of the inner ear with the precision of the inner eye , the inner ear is much better. I can " sing " a B followed by a C , which means that my precision is better than 6 %. I guess the precision of my inner eye is some 50 %.

How good is the inner ear? I put myself that question and built a sawtooth-generator with thirteen knobs for tuning a chromatic scale and one for raising or lowering the scale as a whole. Now and then I ask a visitor to tune her or his version of the diatonic scale in C major. Most people, including myself and experienced singers deviate up to 30 cents from equal temperament .Only my daughter(55) scored between + and- 5 cents .( As a child she played the violin ).No one but myself showed any preference for a low E or a low A .

I assume that most modern ears are strongly adapted to ET and fortunately they are tolerant towards the shortcomings of that tuning.

I think the inner ear can be trained. So it might be that some of you tuners have developed a better ear, or perhaps were born with it. Anyone who wants to tell me ? Has the inner ear ever been seriously investigated?

Leen

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Leen van Assendelft"
<leenvanass@w...> wrote:
> I suppose all tuners and most "normal" people have an inner ear and
>an inner voice. The inner ear can listen, the inner voice can sing.
>Perhaps all of our senses have a corresponding inner sense , anyhow
>we also have an inner eye and an inner imaging.
>
> When we compare the precision of the inner ear with the precision
>of the inner eye , the inner ear is much better. I can " sing " a B
>followed by a C , which means that my precision is better than 6 %.
>I guess the precision of my inner eye is some 50 %.

how do you arrive at this figure?

> How good is the inner ear? I put myself that question and built a
>sawtooth-generator with thirteen knobs for tuning a chromatic scale
>and one for raising or lowering the scale as a whole. Now and then I
>ask a visitor to tune her or his version of the diatonic scale in C
>major. Most people, including myself and experienced singers deviate
>up to 30 cents from equal temperament .Only my daughter(55) scored
>between + and- 5 cents .( As a child she played the violin ).

makes sense.

No one but myself showed any preference for a low E or a low A .

do you play guitar or something?

> I assume that most modern ears are strongly adapted to ET and
>fortunately they are tolerant towards the shortcomings of that
>tuning.

i have some questions. for one, can you explain more what was
involved in the experiment? if there is any actual listening
involved, how is a test of the "inner hearing"? if not, what is
actually being tested? i'm confused.

>
> From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
> Subject: Re: inner ear
>
>
>
> No one but myself showed any preference for a low E or a low A .

actually i tend toward Eb and always have

>
>
>
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 5:46 AM
Subject: [tuning] Re: inner ear

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Leen van Assendelft"
> <leenvanass@w...> wrote:
> > I suppose all tuners and most "normal" people have an inner ear and
> >an inner voice. The inner ear can listen, the inner voice can sing.
> >Perhaps all of our senses have a corresponding inner sense , anyhow
> >we also have an inner eye and an inner imaging.
> >
> > When we compare the precision of the inner ear with the precision
> >of the inner eye , the inner ear is much better. I can " sing " a B
> >followed by a C , which means that my precision is better than 6 %.
> >I guess the precision of my inner eye is some 50 %.
>
> how do you arrive at this figure?

16/15=1.067 2^(1/12)=1.059 , which means that my inner voice can produce
frequencies that
are 6%.apart.
When I trie to imagine a triangle with sides 3 and 4 and 5 I am at a loss.
The right
angle I see is not bad but the size of the figure is variable. 50% deviation
is a very rough guess.
>
> > How good is the inner ear? I put myself that question and built a
> >sawtooth-generator with thirteen knobs for tuning a chromatic scale
> >and one for raising or lowering the scale as a whole. Now and then I
> >ask a visitor to tune her or his version of the diatonic scale in C
> >major. Most people, including myself and experienced singers deviate
> >up to 30 cents from equal temperament .Only my daughter(55) scored
> >between + and- 5 cents .( As a child she played the violin ).
>
> makes sense.
>
> No one but myself showed any preference for a low E or a low A .
>
> do you play guitar or something?

I played mandoline (good for memorizing the circle of fifths), banjo(good
for learning harmony), clarinet,(Brahms, Hindemith), alto sax, recorder
(from soprano till sub bas, renaissance), a little bit viol ,trombone and
bas tuba and recently tenor sax.
I am now busy developing my jazz improvisation (old style, I dislike Charly
Parker). In doing so I discovered the strength
of my inner voice which tells me what I should play (if I could, that's the
problem!)
As a student of mechanical engineering I read von Helmholz ,'' die Lehre von
den Tonempfindungen " and this started a lasting occupation with the tuning
problem. Later I read Fokker , "de rekenkundige bespiegeling der muziek "
( the arithmetical reflection of music) and built a small primitive organ
of which I could tune the pipes. I discovered the beauty of the pure
intervals and chords. 4567 was intriguing , as a chord it was fine, but I
could not appreciate a melody with a 7 , to my ear it allways was too
low.The same ,but to a lesser extent happened with 5. In a chord it sounds
fine and I trie to use it when playing a woodwind instrument, but in a
melodic line I prefer a "high 5"
>
> > I assume that most modern ears are strongly adapted to ET and
> >fortunately they are tolerant towards the shortcomings of that
> >tuning.
>
> i have some questions. for one, can you explain more what was
> involved in the experiment? if there is any actual listening
> involved, how is a test of the "inner hearing"? if not, what is
> actually being tested? i'm confused.
>
As I was curious to know what my and other peoples' ear wanted to hear I
built the sawtooth generator . For those who don't know : With some
electronic gadgeteering you can assemble a circuit that produces a sawtooth
shaped wave. By choosing the correct values of resistances and capacitances
you can vary the frequency between very wide limits and with very small
increments. With appropriate filters beautiful sounds can be produced. The
frequency is not absolutely constant (as is the case in many acoustical
instruments). I built a "french horn"which is operational in an amateur wind
quintet.

My sawtooth generator produces just one tone at a time by touching one of 13
contacts. Each of these 13 tones can be tuned + or - 50 cents . In tuning
you are missing the assistance of a sounding interval , so you have to rely
on your inner ear or whatever that may be. Anyhow : processes in our brain
seem to enable us to choose a sounding tone that corresponds with our
imagination.As I do not understand it, I give it a name : inner ear.
The people I asked to do the test are amateur musicians. Most of them became
quite fanatic when tuning and were disappointed when they saw the result.
Even experienced singers deviated 30 cents from ET .You may find this a bad
result, in fact they hit the desired frequency with a maximum deviation of
2% (supposing they aimed at ET),which I think is very good

Leen

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Leen van Assendelft"
<leenvanass@w...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@s...>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 5:46 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: inner ear
>
>
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Leen van Assendelft"
> > <leenvanass@w...> wrote:
> > > I suppose all tuners and most "normal" people have an inner ear
and
> > >an inner voice. The inner ear can listen, the inner voice can
sing.
> > >Perhaps all of our senses have a corresponding inner sense ,
anyhow
> > >we also have an inner eye and an inner imaging.
> > >
> > > When we compare the precision of the inner ear with the
precision
> > >of the inner eye , the inner ear is much better. I can " sing "
a B
> > >followed by a C , which means that my precision is better than 6
%.
> > >I guess the precision of my inner eye is some 50 %.
> >
> > how do you arrive at this figure?
>
> 16/15=1.067 2^(1/12)=1.059 , which means that my inner voice can
produce
> frequencies that
> are 6%.apart.
> When I trie to imagine a triangle with sides 3 and 4 and 5 I am at
a loss.
> The right
> angle I see is not bad but the size of the figure is variable. 50%
deviation
> is a very rough guess.

that's the figure i was referring to. i suspect you can do much much
better than 50% visually, depending on the situation you're testing.

> >
> > > How good is the inner ear? I put myself that question and built
a
> > >sawtooth-generator with thirteen knobs for tuning a chromatic
scale
> > >and one for raising or lowering the scale as a whole. Now and
then I
> > >ask a visitor to tune her or his version of the diatonic scale
in C
> > >major. Most people, including myself and experienced singers
deviate
> > >up to 30 cents from equal temperament .Only my daughter(55)
scored
> > >between + and- 5 cents .( As a child she played the violin ).
> >
> > makes sense.
> >
> > No one but myself showed any preference for a low E or a low A .
> >
> > do you play guitar or something?
>
> I played mandoline (good for memorizing the circle of fifths),
banjo(good
> for learning harmony), clarinet,(Brahms, Hindemith), alto sax,
recorder
> (from soprano till sub bas, renaissance), a little bit
viol ,trombone and
> bas tuba and recently tenor sax.
> I am now busy developing my jazz improvisation (old style, I
dislike Charly
> Parker). In doing so I discovered the strength
> of my inner voice which tells me what I should play (if I could,
that's the
> problem!)
> As a student of mechanical engineering I read von Helmholz ,'' die
Lehre von
> den Tonempfindungen " and this started a lasting occupation with
the tuning
> problem. Later I read Fokker , "de rekenkundige bespiegeling der
muziek "
> ( the arithmetical reflection of music) and built a small
primitive organ
> of which I could tune the pipes. I discovered the beauty of the pure
> intervals and chords. 4567 was intriguing , as a chord it was fine,
but I
> could not appreciate a melody with a 7 , to my ear it allways was
too
> low.The same ,but to a lesser extent happened with 5. In a chord it
sounds
> fine and I trie to use it when playing a woodwind instrument, but
in a
> melodic line I prefer a "high 5"

have you tried meantone tunings for melodies?

on 10/21/03 7:47 AM, Leen van Assendelft <leenvanass@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

> 4567 was intriguing , as a chord it was fine, but I
> could not appreciate a melody with a 7 , to my ear it allways was too
> low.The same ,but to a lesser extent happened with 5. In a chord it sounds
> fine and I trie to use it when playing a woodwind instrument, but in a
> melodic line I prefer a "high 5"

How about 8:9:10:11, out of curiosity. How do you like 11 in a melody?
Since 11/8 is even a tad further from 12et than 7/4 I expect you might like
it even less. But good to get the data point anyway - maybe it is far
enough out that you are compelled to hear it as itself instead of in
relation to 12et.

I'm not saying that you *should* develop a taste for 7 and 11 in a melody,
but that it might well be an experience that is available to you, so here is
a suggestion: Try listening to some good overtone singing and then see what
happens. Overtone singing is what I suspect bridged the gap for me between
the harmonic series and its melodic manifestations. It is sort of the
nature of it. I also believe it has helped me to better hear (and
"understand") pieces played in 12et, but this is of course very subjective.

-Kurt

Kurt Bigler <kkb@breathsense.com> wrote:
How about 8:9:10:11, out of curiosity. How do you like 11 in a melody?
Since 11/8 is even a tad further from 12et than 7/4 I expect you might like
it even less. But good to get the data point anyway - maybe it is far
enough out that you are compelled to hear it as itself instead of in
relation to 12et.

I agree--it has only been somewhat recently that I have been able to hear the 7, 11, 13 and 15 partials as really being "in tune"--I suppose that goes for 3, 5, 6, 10 and 12 also!!!--overcoming my training as a horn player to make all major and minor scales and arpeggios sound the same intervals and to actually hear the natural harmonics of the instrument has taken great effort. I'm afraid it will take a "great music" to introduce the rest of the world to the natural beauty of these tones.

Bruce

---------------------------------
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Erlich" <paul@stretch-music.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 10:18 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: inner ear
>
> have you tried meantone tunings for melodies?
>
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll do

Leen>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kurt Bigler" <kkb@breathsense.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:02 AM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: inner ear

> I'm not saying that you *should* develop a taste for 7 and 11 in a melody,
> but that it might well be an experience that is available to you, so here
is
> a suggestion: Try listening to some good overtone singing and then see
what
> happens. Overtone singing is what I suspect bridged the gap for me
between
> the harmonic series and its melodic manifestations. It is sort of the
> nature of it. I also believe it has helped me to better hear (and
> "understand") pieces played in 12et, but this is of course very
subjective.
>
> -Kurt
>
> Thank you. I never heard overtone music. Where can I find if?

Leen

on 10/23/03 3:31 AM, Leen van Assendelft <leenvanass@wanadoo.nl> wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kurt Bigler" <kkb@breathsense.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 1:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: inner ear
>
>
>> I'm not saying that you *should* develop a taste for 7 and 11 in a melody,
>> but that it might well be an experience that is available to you, so here
> is
>> a suggestion: Try listening to some good overtone singing and then see
> what
>> happens. Overtone singing is what I suspect bridged the gap for me
> between
>> the harmonic series and its melodic manifestations. It is sort of the
>> nature of it. I also believe it has helped me to better hear (and
>> "understand") pieces played in 12et, but this is of course very
> subjective.
>>
>> -Kurt
>>
> Thank you. I never heard overtone music. Where can I find if?
>
> Leen

Here's are a couple of links (you can try google yourself):

http://www.frankperry.co.uk/overtone_singing.htm

http://www.tranquanghai.net/overtones_caduceus.html

Personally I like "Movements of Mind" by Nigel Charles Halfhide a lot. I
don't like David Hykes very much. TUVA-style chanting is also *fantastic*.
Yet I think the harmonic scale is made most clear by Halfhide.

I don't know if you will be able to find the Halfhide. I could not just
now. But it is worth looking for. (I'll guarantee it. If you buy it and
don't like it I'll buy it used from you and pay shipping.)

If it is really unavailable let me know privately and maybe we can "arrange
something".

-Kurt

> TUVA-style chanting is also *fantastic*.

Yes, I was just going to suggest Huun-Huur-Tu. Perhaps
you'll find his CDs in the library. Otherwise there's
info here: http://www.jaro.de

Manuel

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul"
<manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
>
> > TUVA-style chanting is also *fantastic*.
>
> Yes, I was just going to suggest Huun-Huur-Tu. Perhaps
> you'll find his CDs in the library. Otherwise there's
> info here: http://www.jaro.de

Huun-Huur-Tu is really great, definitely worth the
investment. i was lucky enough to see him perform
live in a small intimate movie theater.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul"

/tuning/topicId_48012.html#48156

<manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
>
> > TUVA-style chanting is also *fantastic*.
>
> Yes, I was just going to suggest Huun-Huur-Tu. Perhaps
> you'll find his CDs in the library. Otherwise there's
> info here: http://www.jaro.de
>
> Manuel

***I believe I saw him live here once in New York... They came to
the "Knitting Factory..."

JP

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul" >
>/tuning/topicId_48012.html#48156
>
><manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
> >
>>>TUVA-style chanting is also *fantastic*.
>>> >>>
>>Yes, I was just going to suggest Huun-Huur-Tu. Perhaps
>>you'll find his CDs in the library. Otherwise there's
>>info here: http://www.jaro.de
>>
>>Manuel
>> >>
>
>
>***I believe I saw him live here once in New York... They came to >the "Knitting Factory..."
>

Huun-Huur-Tu are not a him, but a they.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_48012.html#48186

> Joseph Pehrson wrote:
>
> >--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul"
> >
> >/tuning/topicId_48012.html#48156
> >
> ><manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>TUVA-style chanting is also *fantastic*.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Yes, I was just going to suggest Huun-Huur-Tu. Perhaps
> >>you'll find his CDs in the library. Otherwise there's
> >>info here: http://www.jaro.de
> >>
> >>Manuel
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >***I believe I saw him live here once in New York... They came to
> >the "Knitting Factory..."
> >
>
> Huun-Huur-Tu are not a him, but a they.
>
>

***Thanks, David for the clarification. My memory is a little
foggy... What's that again? Anyway, I *believe* that was the group
that came to the Knitting Factory... do you recall?? Anyway, they
were great, and I believe they were the most renown Tuvan group at
that time...

jP

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

>>>***I believe I saw him live here once in New York... They came to >>>the "Knitting Factory..."
>>>
>>> >>>
>>Huun-Huur-Tu are not a him, but a they.
>>
>>
>> >>
>***Thanks, David for the clarification. My memory is a little >foggy... What's that again? Anyway, I *believe* that was the group >that came to the Knitting Factory... do you recall?? Anyway, they >were great, and I believe they were the most renown Tuvan group at >that time...
>
I think so. They've been to NYC quite a few times,
but I've never been out to hear them. I know
they've also played Town Hall and Symphony Space.
I do have a bunch of their recordings.

http://www.huunhuurtu.com/

Pretty durn cool too.

--
* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

Leen,

I'm arriving late in this discussion. I don't know
what's been said, and I don't have time to check all
the messages, but concerning your final question which
asks if the inner ear has ever been seriously
investigated: there is a company in Silicon Valley
south of San Francisco, California, which is
attempting to create a virtual inner ear. I don't
know the company's name, but one of it's employees is
a friend of Carl Lumma's and a friend of mine. His
automobile license plate reads <<COCHLEA>>.

--Mark Rankin

--- Leen van Assendelft <leenvanass@wanadoo.nl> wrote:
> I suppose all tuners and most "normal" people have
> an inner ear and an inner voice. The inner ear can
> listen, the inner voice can sing. Perhaps all of our
> senses have a corresponding inner sense , anyhow we
> also have an inner eye and an inner imaging.
>
> When we compare the precision of the inner ear with
> the precision of the inner eye , the inner ear is
> much better. I can " sing " a B followed by a C ,
> which means that my precision is better than 6 %. I
> guess the precision of my inner eye is some 50 %.
>
> How good is the inner ear? I put myself that
> question and built a sawtooth-generator with
> thirteen knobs for tuning a chromatic scale and one
> for raising or lowering the scale as a whole. Now
> and then I ask a visitor to tune her or his version
> of the diatonic scale in C major. Most people,
> including myself and experienced singers deviate up
> to 30 cents from equal temperament .Only my
> daughter(55) scored between + and- 5 cents .( As a
> child she played the violin ).No one but myself
> showed any preference for a low E or a low A .
>
> I assume that most modern ears are strongly adapted
> to ET and fortunately they are tolerant towards the
> shortcomings of that tuning.
>
> I think the inner ear can be trained. So it might be
> that some of you tuners have developed a better ear,
> or perhaps were born with it. Anyone who wants to
> tell me ? Has the inner ear ever been seriously
> investigated?
>
> Leen
>
>

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