Equipment for Microtonal Tuning

I'm still unable to determine if my Roland HP 2800G can be made to do real-time
microtonal playback (i.e., I sit down and play the thing and microtonal music comes
out according to my specifiations) or if I need to purchase a brand new instrument-- I
don't think a simple FM module will do what I want... I probably need a synth module.
The Roland manual is of no real help here. I'm not convinced the HP 2800G can be
retuned in any capacity, other than setting diapason pitch in Hertz. -Justin

Justin Weaver wrote:
> I'm still unable to determine if my Roland HP 2800G can be made to do real-time > microtonal playback (i.e., I sit down and play the thing and microtonal music comes > out according to my specifiations) or if I need to purchase a brand new instrument-- I > don't think a simple FM module will do what I want... I probably need a synth module. > The Roland manual is of no real help here. I'm not convinced the HP 2800G can be > retuned in any capacity, other than setting diapason pitch in Hertz. -Justin

So were you the one talking about "tuning keys individually in real time"? It may be you're trying to do something very difficult, and will have to compromise.

Any MIDI keyboard will work for playing the notes. If you want knobs, as you posted links to before, there are plenty of such boxes around. But I don't know of anything that could respond to them, except Kyma, which doesn't seem to be what you're looking for. Probably nobody else does either, which is why you didn't get a response before.

FM modules are synths ... you're making some distinction there that's lost on me.

No, the Roland manual won't tell you about microtonality, and the instrument itself can't be retuned in that way. But it presumably has a "MIDI Out" port (look on the back). So you can run that to any MIDI synth module, and if the synth supports tuning what you play will be retuned. It's really not much harder than having the keyboard and synthesizer in one unit. If it's a digital piano, it will likely have a better keyboard than what comes with a performance synthesizer anyway.

If you want to change tunings quickly, the usual way is to connect the synth to the computer (using MIDI cables again) and control it from there. You can still have the keyboard live when you're doing this. For Windows and an increasing variety of platforms, Scala is the standard. On Macintosh, there's Lil Miss Scale Oven. If the synthesizer doesn't directly support tuning, you can also use the computer to send pitch bend messages to it. But that won't work when it isn't connected to the computer, whereas if you sent a tuning bank over it stays in the synthesizer until you send another one.

From the microtonal synthesis site, look for full keyboard tuning capability. You're likely to need more than 12 note octaves if you're doing JI. That will restrict the choice quite a bit.

Graham

Thanks. I think I was misleading with the term real-time-- although it would be nice
to retune the keyboard 'at will' while playing, I'm more interested in developing
scales, saving them and mapping them to the keyboard, with retuning happening
only between pieces/movements. Max/MSP can retune in true real-time, of course.
HP 2800G has both midi out & in-- which right now I use only to send data to
notation software (Sibelius). I am on the Mac OS X platform.

I admit I'm finding it difficult to express what I need, but I'm quite certain it exists
and has existing for decades -- what I need is a way to create tunings for my Roland
and SAVE them for use-- I'm not interested in computerized playback only-- I'm
interested in sitting at the piano and playing it as if it were indeed tuned to my
customized systems.

Does Lil Miss Scale Oven do that? And, if so, where can I find it? -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:
> Justin Weaver wrote:
> > I'm still unable to determine if my Roland HP 2800G can be made to do real-time
> > microtonal playback (i.e., I sit down and play the thing and microtonal music
comes
> > out according to my specifiations) or if I need to purchase a brand new
instrument-- I
> > don't think a simple FM module will do what I want... I probably need a synth
module.
> > The Roland manual is of no real help here. I'm not convinced the HP 2800G can
be
> > retuned in any capacity, other than setting diapason pitch in Hertz. -Justin
>
> So were you the one talking about "tuning keys individually in real
> time"? It may be you're trying to do something very difficult, and will
> have to compromise.
>
> Any MIDI keyboard will work for playing the notes. If you want knobs,
> as you posted links to before, there are plenty of such boxes around.
> But I don't know of anything that could respond to them, except Kyma,
> which doesn't seem to be what you're looking for. Probably nobody else
> does either, which is why you didn't get a response before.
>
> FM modules are synths ... you're making some distinction there that's
> lost on me.
>
> No, the Roland manual won't tell you about microtonality, and the
> instrument itself can't be retuned in that way. But it presumably has a
> "MIDI Out" port (look on the back). So you can run that to any MIDI
> synth module, and if the synth supports tuning what you play will be
> retuned. It's really not much harder than having the keyboard and
> synthesizer in one unit. If it's a digital piano, it will likely have a
> better keyboard than what comes with a performance synthesizer anyway.
>
> If you want to change tunings quickly, the usual way is to connect the
> synth to the computer (using MIDI cables again) and control it from
> there. You can still have the keyboard live when you're doing this.
> For Windows and an increasing variety of platforms, Scala is the
> standard. On Macintosh, there's Lil Miss Scale Oven. If the
> synthesizer doesn't directly support tuning, you can also use the
> computer to send pitch bend messages to it. But that won't work when it
> isn't connected to the computer, whereas if you sent a tuning bank over
> it stays in the synthesizer until you send another one.
>
> From the microtonal synthesis site, look for full keyboard tuning
> capability. You're likely to need more than 12 note octaves if you're
> doing JI. That will restrict the choice quite a bit.
>
>
> Graham

>I'm still unable to determine if my Roland HP 2800G can be made to do
>real-time microtonal playback

Scala can retune it from a PC in realtime (or near-realtime).
Or, you can use it as a controller for a software synth which
is tunable.

>(i.e., I sit down and play the thing and microtonal
>music comes out according to my specifiations)

What are your specifications???

>I don't think a simple FM module will do what I want...

AFAIK, the Yamaha DX and TX stuff does everything anything
can do. [Actually, that's not true; the Kurzweil K2xxx stuff
(and apparently some tweaking certain Emu Proteus stuff) can
do MIDI-actuated key-changing....]

>I probably need a synth module.

"FM" is a type of synthesis.

I highly recommend you read the page I linked to earlier
today (MIDI tutorial at midi.org)!

-Carl

>Thanks. I think I was misleading with the term real-time //
>I'm more interested in developing scales, saving them and
>mapping them to the keyboard, with retuning happening
>only between pieces/movements.

The Yamaha TX boxes will do that! So will any listed as
having MTS at microtonal-synthesis.com. Did you even look
at that site?

>Does Lil Miss Scale Oven do that?

Best bet is to ask the author.

>And, if so, where can I find it? -Justin

Google!

Oh, and it's considered polite to trim excess quoted bits
off the bottom of messages. ;)

-Carl

Yes, I've been meaning to read that-- the idea that FM vs. "other" synthesis contrasts
in some way was put in my head by a very experienced long-time MIDI-using
friend-- I'm sure his semantics are sound on some level...

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I'm still unable to determine if my Roland HP 2800G can be made to do
> >real-time microtonal playback
>
> Scala can retune it from a PC in realtime (or near-realtime).
> Or, you can use it as a controller for a software synth which
> is tunable.
>
> >(i.e., I sit down and play the thing and microtonal
> >music comes out according to my specifiations)
>
> What are your specifications???
>
> >I don't think a simple FM module will do what I want...
>
> AFAIK, the Yamaha DX and TX stuff does everything anything
> can do. [Actually, that's not true; the Kurzweil K2xxx stuff
> (and apparently some tweaking certain Emu Proteus stuff) can
> do MIDI-actuated key-changing....]
>
> >I probably need a synth module.
>
> "FM" is a type of synthesis.
>
> I highly recommend you read the page I linked to earlier
> today (MIDI tutorial at midi.org)!
>
> -Carl

> The Yamaha TX boxes will do that! So will any listed as
> having MTS at microtonal-synthesis.com. Did you even look
> at that site?

Yes, in some detail. I understand that the TX box can do it-- I'm not yet convinced it
can make my Roland do it though, even with the TX box. My MIDI-guru friend has his
doubts too and is steering me toward a K2600SX. The Microtonal Synthesis site says
that the Roland HP 2800G can be tuned, but only one scale at a time and only within
one octave rounded to the nearest cent-- that doesn't sound powerful enough for
general purpose use.
>
> >And, if so, where can I find it? -Justin
>
> Google!

When I searched for it, I got a lot of kitchen accessory sites and some porn...
somebody else did find it though. It looks like it works, just not with OS X :(

>
> Oh, and it's considered polite to trim excess quoted bits
> off the bottom of messages. ;)

Yeah, I know... I'm sure this isn't the place to debate netiquette, but I've always
opposed its existence. It a sort of insider vs. outsider gatekeeping... Life's too short
for all that. We should leave our excess quoted bits and run free!!! :)

>the idea that FM vs. "other" synthesis contrasts
>in some way was put in my head

FM does have a very characteristic sound, which
some do not like. The Kurzweil boxes are more
flexible. BTW, the earlier Kurzweil stuff I've
already pointed you to can be had used for faar
less than $4K.

-Carl

>I'm not yet convinced it can make my Roland do it though, even
>with the TX box.

Once again, your Roland contains a MIDI controller, events from
which can control a TX, or any other microtunable synth, in any
tuning you want.

Or, the controller in your Roland can send events to your PC,
where Scala (Mac version sort-of works, full version coming
soon, in any case an Intel box is cheaper than a new keyboard!!)
can retune it and send it:

() Back to your Roland, where it will be played in the new tuning.

() To *any* other synth, microtonal or not, including software
synths, where it will be played in the new tuning.

Kapeesh?

Scala does this with Pitch Bends, supported by all MIDI synths,
but nonetheless a true "microtonal" (supports MTS) synth, without
Scala in the loop, is ultimately to be preferred.

-Carl

Okay, I'm convinced :) -- but I'll believe it when I hear it. Maybe I should just dish out
the $200 for the TX box... it will be able to play back with the Roland's sounds so the
FM issue is irrelevant, right? -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I'm not yet convinced it can make my Roland do it though, even
> >with the TX box.
>
> Once again, your Roland contains a MIDI controller, events from
> which can control a TX, or any other microtunable synth, in any
> tuning you want.
>
> Or, the controller in your Roland can send events to your PC,
> where Scala (Mac version sort-of works, full version coming
> soon, in any case an Intel box is cheaper than a new keyboard!!)
> can retune it and send it:
>
> () Back to your Roland, where it will be played in the new tuning.
>
> () To *any* other synth, microtonal or not, including software
> synths, where it will be played in the new tuning.
>
> Kapeesh?
>
> Scala does this with Pitch Bends, supported by all MIDI synths,
> but nonetheless a true "microtonal" (supports MTS) synth, without
> Scala in the loop, is ultimately to be preferred.
>
> -Carl

>Okay, I'm convinced :) -- but I'll believe it when I hear it.
>Maybe I should just dish out the $200 for the TX box... it
>will be able to play back with the Roland's sounds so the
>FM issue is irrelevant, right? -Justin

Nope, the TX is a synth. All it does it make sounds (and it
can store tunings). The Roland is a controller, and a synth
(that can't store tunings). But you can retune any synth with
pitch bends. Therefore if you want to retune your Roland, you
can use pitch bends, which Scala (software) can generate.

The TX cannot generate pitch bends. It can respond to them
like any other synth, but there's little point of that, since
it supports MTS (midi tuning standard) tunings. Clear? ;?~|

Ok, I admit this is confusing as all get-out. But try to
see it from the synth's point of view. :)

Don't forget -- a choice of synths is an artistic choice!
If you don't know what one sounds like, I don't recommend
you buy it used, where you can't return it.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_45612.html#45657

> >I'm not yet convinced it can make my Roland do it though, even
> >with the TX box.
>
> Once again, your Roland contains a MIDI controller, events from
> which can control a TX, or any other microtunable synth, in any
> tuning you want.
>
> Or, the controller in your Roland can send events to your PC,
> where Scala (Mac version sort-of works, full version coming
> soon, in any case an Intel box is cheaper than a new keyboard!!)
> can retune it and send it:
>
> () Back to your Roland, where it will be played in the new tuning.
>
> () To *any* other synth, microtonal or not, including software
> synths, where it will be played in the new tuning.
>
> Kapeesh?
>
> Scala does this with Pitch Bends, supported by all MIDI synths,
> but nonetheless a true "microtonal" (supports MTS) synth, without
> Scala in the loop, is ultimately to be preferred.
>
> -Carl

***I'm beginning to doubt the accuracy of pitch-bends, particularly
after Monz' investigations. Do most people believe a synth with
a "tuning table" is preferable for "serious" microtonal work? I
guess it kindof seems that way...

J. Pehrson

Yes, I've always been on the slow learning curve for technology-- everything else in
music has come easily to me-- but it takes me hours to get anything working
correctly-- or convince myself that it WILL work correctly.

What it boils down for me is getting my Roland to play mircrotonal music *in its own
timbres*, not in the timbres of the synth. If the TX box retunes my Roland but can
only produce funky FM sounds, I don't want it. I want the MIDI timbres programmed
in my Roland. -Justin

> Nope, the TX is a synth. All it does it make sounds (and it
> can store tunings). The Roland is a controller, and a synth
> (that can't store tunings). But you can retune any synth with
> pitch bends. Therefore if you want to retune your Roland, you
> can use pitch bends, which Scala (software) can generate.
>
> The TX cannot generate pitch bends. It can respond to them
> like any other synth, but there's little point of that, since
> it supports MTS (midi tuning standard) tunings. Clear? ;?~|
>

>***I'm beginning to doubt the accuracy of pitch-bends, particularly
>after Monz' investigations. Do most people believe a synth with
>a "tuning table" is preferable for "serious" microtonal work? I
>guess it kindof seems that way...
>
>J. Pehrson

It isn't accuracy that concerns me, but multitimbral limitations,
gliches, and latency.

-Carl

>What it boils down for me is getting my Roland to play
>mircrotonal music *in its own timbres*,

For that you need Scala, or (according to its web site)
Little Miss Scale Oven.

-Carl

Or a program in Max/MSP. I think that would be the absolute best solution. My
dream-world solution is have a program that pops up with 88 text boxes and lets me
enter cents values for every note on the keyboard to the nearest hundredth. These
scales could then be saved as presets and loaded at will. My friend tells me that such
a program might already exist for Max/MSP as a stand-alone application. Playback
would be through the computer. Anybody know of such a program? -Justin

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >What it boils down for me is getting my Roland to play
> >mircrotonal music *in its own timbres*,
>
> For that you need Scala, or (according to its web site)
> Little Miss Scale Oven.
>
> -Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Weaver" <improvist@u...> wrote:
> Or a program in Max/MSP. I think that would be the absolute best
solution. My
> dream-world solution is have a program that pops up with 88 text
boxes and lets me
> enter cents values for every note on the keyboard to the nearest
hundredth. These
> scales could then be saved as presets and loaded at will.

the ensoniq keyboards (including some that sell used for $300 these
days), and others i'm sure, allow you to set the pitch for each key
individually and save the resulting tuning as part of any patch
("timbre"). so you can have dozens, if not hundreds, of tuning/timbre
combinations at your disposal, and not even need a computer!