New website

http://www.hermode.com
About automatic tuning.

Manuel

>http://www.hermode.com
>About automatic tuning.

Holy S***!

-C.

that is one slick-ass website. the historical presentation is awesome.

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Lumma [mailto:ekin@lumma.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 3:03 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [tuning] New website
>
>
> >http://www.hermode.com
> >About automatic tuning.
>
> Holy S***!
>
> -C.

>that is one slick-ass website.
>the historical presentation is awesome.

Yeah, but more importantly, it's a fully-functional
company that's already OEM'd their knob to Waldorf.
I've mailed Waldorf. If they're actually shipping,
it'll be the biggest event since I joined this list
in 1997, with the possible exceptions of Catler's
relationship with G&L and the slowly-increasing
awesomeness of Scala.

-Carl

but what kind of tuning system is that? is it JI really, since the roots of
the chords are tempered? Is there a "tuning list" name for this type of
tuning?

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Lumma [mailto:ekin@lumma.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 4:15 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [tuning] New website
>
>
> >that is one slick-ass website.
> >the historical presentation is awesome.
>
> Yeah, but more importantly, it's a fully-functional
> company that's already OEM'd their knob to Waldorf.
> I've mailed Waldorf. If they're actually shipping,
> it'll be the biggest event since I joined this list
> in 1997, with the possible exceptions of Catler's
> relationship with G&L and the slowly-increasing
> awesomeness of Scala.
>
> -Carl
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
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>
>
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>
>

>but what kind of tuning system is that? is it JI really, since the roots
>of the chords are tempered? Is there a "tuning list" name for this type
>of tuning?

Yep. "Adaptive JI" is when the roots are not just. "Adaptive tuning"
is when a small amount of dynamically-calculated temperament is allowed
also in the harmonies. Hermode tuning is apparently "adaptive tuning".

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >but what kind of tuning system is that? is it JI really, since the
roots
> >of the chords are tempered? Is there a "tuning list" name for this
type
> >of tuning?
>
> Yep. "Adaptive JI" is when the roots are not just. "Adaptive
tuning"
> is when a small amount of dynamically-calculated temperament is
allowed
> also in the harmonies. Hermode tuning is apparently "adaptive
tuning".
>
> -Carl

why isn't it adaptive ji? it appears to be identical to a very early
and primitive version of john delaubenfels' program.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > >but what kind of tuning system is that? is it JI really, since
the
> roots
> > >of the chords are tempered? Is there a "tuning list" name for
this
> type
> > >of tuning?
> >
> > Yep. "Adaptive JI" is when the roots are not just. "Adaptive
> tuning"
> > is when a small amount of dynamically-calculated temperament is
> allowed
> > also in the harmonies. Hermode tuning is apparently "adaptive
> tuning".
> >
> > -Carl
>
> why isn't it adaptive ji? it appears to be identical to a very
early
> and primitive version of john delaubenfels' program.

. . . which was real-time too . . .

well, i read a little further, and mention is made of some occasional
small amounts of impurity in the harmonies to reduce retuning motion.
but it's not clear what triggers this sort of behavior in real time,
and i wish this were more clearly described. anyhow, i guess you're
right, it is adaptive tuning, not adaptive ji.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
wrote:

> that is one slick-ass website. the historical presentation is awesome.

My reaction to it is my usual reaction--these idiots would do a hell
of a lot better with something simpler and quicker to download. Also,
like so many of the geniuses making websites, they put in a black
background which is hard to read.

The original idea for html is that the markup language would do most
of the work, so that downloading a page would be very fast. It is
still a good idea, but all the overpaid webpage designers feel they
must show they've done something worthn being overpaid for.

Lunacy!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:

> why isn't it adaptive ji? it appears to be identical to a very early
> and primitive version of john delaubenfels' program.

It has a big, big advantage over John's program--it's available.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> wrote:
>
> > why isn't it adaptive ji? it appears to be identical to a very
early
> > and primitive version of john delaubenfels' program.
>
> It has a big, big advantage over John's program--it's available.

the very early and primitive version of john's program can be
downloaded from the very bottom of this page:

http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/d/jdelaub/jstudio.htm

in the days of 14k dialup that might have been true, but this is the
broadband age. A presentation like the one on that page, with examples that
you can click on and hear instantly, without it opening another
window/program or waiting for something to download, is the bee's knees. OK,
I know not everyone has cable or DSL yet, but pretty soon they will, or
satellite, or whatever else thats just around the bend that will be
orders-of-magnitude faster than anything nowadays. It wont be long before
access to anything you click on, be it image, music or video, will be
instantaneous. Bring it on! I want a hand-held device always connected
wirelessly to the web and "the grid" that will be a supercomputer in my
hand. I want Star Trek. It's comming, and sooner than you think. Streaming
access anywhere to a repository of every sound recording in existence. It's
comming!

Dante

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gene Ward Smith [mailto:gwsmith@svpal.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 6:09 PM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] Re: New website
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
> wrote:
>
> > that is one slick-ass website. the historical presentation is awesome.
>
> My reaction to it is my usual reaction--these idiots would do a hell
> of a lot better with something simpler and quicker to download. Also,
> like so many of the geniuses making websites, they put in a black
> background which is hard to read.
>
> The original idea for html is that the markup language would do most
> of the work, so that downloading a page would be very fast. It is
> still a good idea, but all the overpaid webpage designers feel they
> must show they've done something worthn being overpaid for.
>
> Lunacy!
>
>
>
>
> You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery
> on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to
> individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

>why isn't it adaptive ji?

Because vertical sonorities are sometimes tempered.

>it appears to be identical to a very early
>and primitive version of john delaubenfels' program.

Details on the algorithm simply aren't given, so
there's no basis for such a statement. One potential
difference is that John's basic element is a scale,
while the basic elements of the hermode system are
apparently chords.

Also important is that John's software is leisure-
time, while this is realtime.

John did do JI Relay, but I'm not sure it ever worked.
It remains to be seen how well this works, but the
(limited) sound examples are so far promising.

There is a paper, in German...

-Carl

>> that is one slick-ass website. the historical presentation is
>> awesome.
>
>My reaction to it is my usual reaction--these idiots would do a hell
>of a lot better with something simpler and quicker to download. Also,
>like so many of the geniuses making websites, they put in a black
>background which is hard to read.

It's blue.

Lumma.org will have black background. I think it's easier on the
eyes.

>The original idea for html is that the markup language would do most
>of the work, so that downloading a page would be very fast. It is
>still a good idea, but all the overpaid webpage designers feel they
>must show they've done something worth being overpaid for.
>
>Lunacy!

True enough.

-Carl

What does this site require to operate? I have tried Netscape 7.02 and Safari on the Mac (OS X 10.2.6)? All I get is an empty blue screen...

Mike

Manuel Op de Coul wrote:
> http://www.hermode.com
> About automatic tuning.
> > Manuel
> > > > You do not need web access to participate. You may subscribe through
> email. Send an empty email to one of these addresses:
> tuning-subscribe@yahoogroups.com - join the tuning group.
> tuning-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com - unsubscribe from the tuning group.
> tuning-nomail@yahoogroups.com - put your email message delivery on hold for the tuning group.
> tuning-digest@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to daily digest mode.
> tuning-normal@yahoogroups.com - change your subscription to individual emails.
> tuning-help@yahoogroups.com - receive general help information.
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

>What does this site require to operate? I have tried Netscape 7.02
>and Safari on the Mac (OS X 10.2.6)? All I get is an empty blue
>screen...

It definitely requires Flash. It works fine in ie 6 or Netscape 7.1
on my windows box.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_45491.html#45498

> >http://www.hermode.com
> >About automatic tuning.
>
> Holy S***!
>
> -C.

***It looks to me like this is a commercial realization of the kind
of work that John deLaubenfels was doing. Wonder if he knows about
it?? I don't know about the *horizontal* direction; not much was
said on the site.

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> It's blue.

It's black here. Any half-way decent web designer should know that
might happen.

> Lumma.org will have black background. I think it's easier on the
> eyes.

Being impossible to read without downloading the page and reading it
offline is not what I call easy on the eyes. I suggest you forget
about it, unless you make certain the text will be bright and easily
visible in a variety of browser and terminal configurations.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...>
wrote:
> in the days of 14k dialup that might have been true, but this is the
> broadband age.

Only if you have broadband. *Many* people do not. Moat of the
characters who design web pages don't care.

A presentation like the one on that page, with examples that
> you can click on and hear instantly, without it opening another
> window/program or waiting for something to download, is the bee's
knees.

Actually, it was pretty slick in some ways, but it was simply
incompetent in others.

>> Lumma.org will have black background. I think it's easier on the
>> eyes.
>
>Being impossible to read without downloading the page and reading it
>offline is not what I call easy on the eyes.

Ctrl-A, my good man, Ctrl-A.

>I suggest you forget about it, unless you make certain the text will
>be bright and easily visible in a variety of browser and terminal
>configurations.

My site will be the very simplest html imaginable, and anybody who
isn't blind should be able to read it. Or resize the font until they
can. White backgrounds are hard on the eye, I think.

In the meantime, the colors at xenharmony.org are extremely low-
contrast.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_45491.html#45525

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dante Rosati"
<dante.interport@r...>
> wrote:
> > in the days of 14k dialup that might have been true, but this is
the
> > broadband age.
>
> Only if you have broadband. *Many* people do not. Moat of the
> characters who design web pages don't care.
>
> A presentation like the one on that page, with examples that
> > you can click on and hear instantly, without it opening another
> > window/program or waiting for something to download, is the bee's
> knees.
>
> Actually, it was pretty slick in some ways, but it was simply
> incompetent in others.

***Personally, for what it's worth, I thought the webpage was *trying
too hard* to be "slick." It failed a bit just from the point of view
of presenting information which, I imagine, might be a reasonable
objective, for at least *part* of the site...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> In the meantime, the colors at xenharmony.org are extremely low-
> contrast.

I know, but there is no difficulty in reading it.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >why isn't it adaptive ji?
>
> Because vertical sonorities are sometimes tempered.
>
> >it appears to be identical to a very early
> >and primitive version of john delaubenfels' program.
>
> Details on the algorithm simply aren't given, so
> there's no basis for such a statement.

the basic concept initially presented, shifting ji chords to have
sum-of-signed-deviations-from-12-equal equal to zero, is exactly the
same.

> One potential
> difference is that John's basic element is a scale,

?

> while the basic elements of the hermode system are
> apparently chords.

of which scale do you speak?

> Also important is that John's software is leisure-
> time, while this is realtime.

please read my posts more carefully. the piece of john's software of
which i speak is realtime.

> John did do JI Relay,

yes, that's the software in question.

> but I'm not sure it ever worked.

it worked.

>
> ***It looks to me like this is a commercial realization of the kind
> of work that John deLaubenfels was doing. Wonder if he knows about
> it?? I don't know about the *horizontal* direction; not much was
> said on the site.

actually, quite a bit is. keep clicking.

>> Also important is that John's software is leisure-
>> time, while this is realtime.
>
>please read my posts more carefully. the piece of john's
>software of which i speak is realtime.

I saw your mention of realtime, but it was still unclear
to me that your entire post referred to JI Relay. The
use of the name name would have been helpful, since
'John's software' most often referred to bge on this list,
and bge did have early, more primitive versions.

>> One potential
>> difference is that John's basic element is a scale,
>
>?

John's bge program identifies, at any given moment, the
music as being in a certain key of a single (per run)
scale.

>> while the basic elements of the hermode system are
>> apparently chords.
>
>of which scale do you speak?

Again, referring to bge, any scale can be used. John
included a few presets with the program. You'll
recall the otonal, utonal, and otonal/utonal retunings,
which correspond to choices from the preset scales.

>> but I'm not sure it ever worked.
>
>it worked.

How did you get it to work? I ran into serious bugs.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> Also important is that John's software is leisure-
> >> time, while this is realtime.
> >
> >please read my posts more carefully. the piece of john's
> >software of which i speak is realtime.
>
> I saw your mention of realtime, but it was still unclear
> to me that your entire post referred to JI Relay.

you should have followed the link i provided! that would have made it
totally unambiguous.

> >> One potential
> >> difference is that John's basic element is a scale,
> >
> >?
>
> John's bge program identifies, at any given moment, the
> music as being in a certain key of a single (per run)
> scale.

mmm . . . kind of a misleading description. certainly there are no
versions of major scales or anything like that the way there are in
some of the alternative methods described on the hermode site.

we need john to chime in . . .

>> I saw your mention of realtime, but it was still unclear
>> to me that your entire post referred to JI Relay.
>
>you should have followed the link i provided! that would have
>made it totally unambiguous.

That was a different message.

Aren't you going to tell us the setup you got JI Relay to
work with?

>> John's bge program identifies, at any given moment, the
>> music as being in a certain key of a single (per run)
>> scale.
>
>mmm . . . kind of a misleading description. certainly there
>are no versions of major scales or anything like that the way
>there are in some of the alternative methods described on the
>hermode site.

They are 12-tone scales in bge. Here's the "Z7" scale...

0 # 0; the reference, "C"
0 # 1; has no known harmonic place in the scale...
+320 # 2; 9/8 of C
+1281 # 3; 6/5 of C
-1121 # 4; 5/4 of C
-160 # 5; 4/3 of C
-801 # 6; 15/16 of 7
+160 # 7; 3/2 of C
+1121 # 8; 4/5 of 12
-1281 # 9; 5/6 of C
-2553 # A; 7/8 of C: 7-limit!!!
-961 # B; 15/16 of C

...etc.

-Carl