Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning _Blacklight

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> _Blacklight_, my new piece for cello and electronics in the
Blackjack
> scale which was recently premiered by cellist Dan Barrett is now
> available online:
>
> http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/3311/3311857.html
>
> Enjoy! (hopefully... :)
>
> Joseph Pehrson

wow! the character, timing, and intonation of the cello part is quite
different from the way dan sounded during the rehearsal i attended --
i almost didn't recognize him! certainly my earlier comments about
him (seemingly by magic) making the electronic part sound more musical
still apply in full force, though now i'm getting a sense that the
very form of the piece has come under his spell as well -- he's
really making it tell a story, and at least on first listen, a pretty
timeless one at that . . .

the music is coming across as quite deep and meaningful to me now,
maybe a few rough moments here and there but mostly it goes over
smooth and strong. i like how you have different instruments
sometimes outlining different, conflicting tonalities at the same
time -- makes for a wonderful multi-layered effect (and kudos on this
creative use of the pitch possibilities blackjack makes available!).
the mix and reverb on this particular recording seemed to bring out
this effect particularly well.

is anyone going to get upset because your mp3.com page calls
blackjack a "21-tone just intonation scale" even though it's not
expressible as a set of frequency ratios (rather it simply alternates
tempered 1/6-tone and 5/12-tone steps)? if so, i hope they will
simply listen to the recording here -- if they're anything like me,
it'll make them feel a lot better about you, dan, the blackjack
scale, and the future of microtonal music. and the power of music to
transcend words -- bickering over terminolgy sure seems pointless in
the face of artistic expression like this.

keep up the great work (and pass my congratulations on to dan too)!

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_45216.html#45224

> keep up the great work (and pass my congratulations on to dan too)!

***Thanks so much, Paul, for the accolades (and also for Dan)!
Either you're getting more "used" to my musical language and are
liking it better or I'm just composing better! I would just as soon
it be the latter!

I added _Blacklight_ to the "Free Radio Blackjack" station that Gene
is also on:

http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/354/blackjack1.html

I guess Gene and I are really the only two people actively composing
in Blackjack at the moment? It would be interesting if some other
people would give it a try... just to see what they would do with the
scale.

Yes, Dan Barrett really takes over during performance. He becomes
practically crazed with intensity and literally *becomes* the piece.
I have had this experience with him before, so was not surprised, but
I'm *so* glad he ended up being the performer to do the piece. I
think it contributes to some of the positive effect you are
experiencing.

And, it also is a wonderful scale! I'm happy to be using it, and
expect to for some time in virtually *all* my xenharmonic pieces!

I have to admit, since there are "true believers" of one kind or
another on this Tuning List, my "true belief" is that Blackjack *IS*
Just Intonation (or a practical version thereof). I fully realize
that this is a controversial view, but since it was *my* site where
this "erroneous" :) view was posted, I believe I'm entitled to it! :)

By the way, is the chronology as to the invention of Blackjack on
Monz' webpage accurate??:

"In April 2001, Dave Keenan was responding to a request from Joseph
Pehrson, on the Yahoo Tuning List, for good 19-tone 11-limit subsets
of 72-EDO when he realised that most of the good ones were subsets of
a particular 31 tone periodicity block which was very even
melodically. It was a 72-EDO tempering of a 31-tone planar
microtemperament that he had created some years back in collaboration
with Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma."

I was wondering, in particular, about the "31-tone planar
microtemperament he had created some years back in collaboration with
Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma..."

How far back was that?? That's after, though, George Secor
discovered the generator, yes? I believe that was in 1975??

Anyway, what was *your* recollection as to the sequence of events
that ultimately ended in Blackjack? Just like Monz's? (This will be
important for the next generation of "Blackjack Scholars...") I'm
being a little facetious here, but it's true that Blackjack and the
ensuing pieces might make somebody a dandy little dissertation
topic... :)

Joseph

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_45216.html#45228

> > wow! the character, timing, and intonation of the cello part is
quite
> > different from the way dan sounded during the rehearsal i
attended
>
> I haven't even managed to download it. Mp3.com gets crappier all
the time.

***That's peculiar, Gene, since it seem stabler to *me* than most of
the other sound locations...

>
> If you like, I'll put your blackjack stuff up on my own new personal
> website, hosted cheaply but I hope effectively in Singapore, which I
> am working on. In fact, if you send me a CD I'll put up something
> which sounds better than the mp3's on mp3.com.

***We'll I'll be happy to e-mail you a file, but I don't like to deal
much with CDs of late. I prefer to do as much as possible right on
the web. It's more maleable...

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_45216.html#45224
>
> > keep up the great work (and pass my congratulations on to dan
too)!
>
>
> ***Thanks so much, Paul, for the accolades (and also for Dan)!
> Either you're getting more "used" to my musical language and are
> liking it better or I'm just composing better! I would just as
soon
> it be the latter!
>
> I added _Blacklight_ to the "Free Radio Blackjack" station that
Gene
> is also on:
>
> http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/354/blackjack1.html
>
> I guess Gene and I are really the only two people actively
composing
> in Blackjack at the moment?
>
> It would be interesting if some other
> people would give it a try... just to see what they would do with
the
> scale.

geez . . . ok, i'm going to try to go home early, and see what i can
do . . . ara's computer is on the fritz much of the time, but
supposedly there's a full studio setup on there . . . i find that,
other than through improvisation, i'm a much more effective
*collaborator* than composer (for example right now with stretch, the
other guitarist, mike hermans, submits awesome, inspiring
compositions, and i can hear aspects of how the form, dynamics, etc.
*should* go in my mind (and the band seems totally willing to go
along . . .))

> By the way, is the chronology as to the invention of Blackjack on
> Monz' webpage accurate??:
>
> "In April 2001, Dave Keenan was responding to a request from Joseph
> Pehrson, on the Yahoo Tuning List, for good 19-tone 11-limit
subsets
> of 72-EDO when he realised that most of the good ones were subsets
of
> a particular 31 tone periodicity block which was very even
> melodically. It was a 72-EDO tempering of a 31-tone planar
> microtemperament that he had created some years back in
collaboration
> with Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma."
>
> I was wondering, in particular, about the "31-tone planar
> microtemperament he had created some years back in collaboration
with
> Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma..."
>
> How far back was that?? That's after, though, George Secor
> discovered the generator, yes? I believe that was in 1975??

yes, later than '75, on the tuning list in fact.

> Anyway, what was *your* recollection as to the sequence of events
> that ultimately ended in Blackjack? Just like Monz's?

monz got that info from dave keenan, i'm pretty sure. therefore, it's
correct.

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Dave Keenan <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> I added _Blacklight_ to the "Free Radio Blackjack" station that Gene
> is also on:
>
> http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/354/blackjack1.html

That's fabulous! I didn't know there was so much Blackjack material.
Maybe we can get some of the earliest pieces up there too, from
Marybeth Ackerley and Jacky Ligon. But Paul or someone had better
check that they are actually in blackjack since there was some
confusion, and equipment problems, in those early days of Blackjack.

My two favourite pieces on there so far are Blacklight and Stained Glass.

> I have to admit, since there are "true believers" of one kind or
> another on this Tuning List, my "true belief" is that Blackjack *IS*
> Just Intonation (or a practical version thereof). I fully realize
> that this is a controversial view, but since it was *my* site where
> this "erroneous" :) view was posted, I believe I'm entitled to it! :)
>

Hoo boy! If you want to get out of that one, you might claim that many
of the intervals sound just to mere mortals, as opposed to those with
god-like discrimination. As you know, I am of the "just is as just
sounds" school, not the "just is ratios" school.

> By the way, is the chronology as to the invention of Blackjack on
> Monz' webpage accurate??:

Yes. You can check it yourself in the archives, using the tuning list
home page to enter the stated month. Although it was right at the end
of April so it's quicker to go to May and hit "Previous". Or start with
/tuning/topicId_21636.html#21805

> "In April 2001, Dave Keenan was responding to a request from Joseph
> Pehrson, on the Yahoo Tuning List, for good 19-tone 11-limit subsets
> of 72-EDO when he realised that most of the good ones were subsets of
> a particular 31 tone periodicity block which was very even
> melodically. It was a 72-EDO tempering of a 31-tone planar
> microtemperament that he had created some years back in collaboration
> with Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma."
>
> I was wondering, in particular, about the "31-tone planar
> microtemperament he had created some years back in collaboration with
> Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma..."
>
> How far back was that?? That's after, though, George Secor
> discovered the generator, yes? I believe that was in 1975??

I'm pretty sure George Secor published The Generator in Xenharmonicon
in 1975. I forget which issue. You there George?

The 31-tone planar temperament appears in this post on 29-Dec-1999
/tuning/topicId_7341.html#7341

It's the second one described in that post. I called it a "near miss",
since it didn't have quite as many hexads as the other, but included
the prophetic words, "It may be useful when fewer than 31 tones are to
be made available."

However I don't think this planar temperament is terribly significant
in Blackjack history. If anything, the planar tempering prevented us
seeing what Paul later saw in the 72-ET tempering of it -- the miracle
generator.

> Anyway, what was *your* recollection as to the sequence of events
> that ultimately ended in Blackjack? Just like Monz's? (This will be
> important for the next generation of "Blackjack Scholars...") I'm
> being a little facetious here, but it's true that Blackjack and the
> ensuing pieces might make somebody a dandy little dissertation
> topic... :)

In
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/blackjack/blackjack.htm
I'd prefer if Monz reworded that first paragraph to:

"In April 2001, Paul Erlich and Dave Keenan were responding to a
request from Joseph Pehrson, on the Yahoo Tuning List, for good
19-tone 11-limit subsets of 72-EDO when Dave realised that although
there was no obvious winner, most of the good ones were subsets of a
particular 31 tone periodicity block which was very even melodically.
It was a 72-EDO tempering of a 31-tone planar microtemperament that he
had created in December 1999 in collaboration with Paul Erlich and
Carl Lumma."

Monz should include the fact that Paul coined the name Blackjack. e.g.
as follows

"Dave posted this 31-tone scale to the tuning list whereupon Paul
Erlich pointed out that it was a maximally-even MOS whose generator
was 7/72 "octave"; that this generator seemed to be very special; that
it gave rise to a 21-tone MOS that while not proper, was CS; and that
Blackjack would be an excellent name for it."

Monz should also mention George Secor's 1975 publication of the
generator (but not the MOS scales) that we were unaware of at the time.

You there Monz?

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Dave,

> From: "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@UQ.NET.AU>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 8:31 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: _Blacklight_ now online!
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > How far back was that?? That's after, though, George Secor
> > discovered the generator, yes? I believe that was in 1975??
>
> I'm pretty sure George Secor published The Generator in Xenharmonicon
> in 1975. I forget which issue. You there George?

it was Xenharmonikï¿½n 3.

the Secor article has been republished in .pdf format
by Kraig Grady at
http://www.anaphoria.com/secor.PDF

> <snip>
>
> In
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/blackjack/blackjack.htm
> I'd prefer if Monz reworded that first paragraph to:
>
> "In April 2001, Paul Erlich and Dave Keenan were responding to a
> request from Joseph Pehrson, on the Yahoo Tuning List, for good
> 19-tone 11-limit subsets of 72-EDO when Dave realised that although
> there was no obvious winner, most of the good ones were subsets of a
> particular 31 tone periodicity block which was very even melodically.
> It was a 72-EDO tempering of a 31-tone planar microtemperament that he
> had created in December 1999 in collaboration with Paul Erlich and
> Carl Lumma."
>
> Monz should include the fact that Paul coined the name Blackjack. e.g.
> as follows
>
> "Dave posted this 31-tone scale to the tuning list whereupon Paul
> Erlich pointed out that it was a maximally-even MOS whose generator
> was 7/72 "octave"; that this generator seemed to be very special; that
> it gave rise to a 21-tone MOS that while not proper, was CS; and that
> Blackjack would be an excellent name for it."
>
> Monz should also mention George Secor's 1975 publication of the
> generator (but not the MOS scales) that we were unaware of at the time.
>
> You there Monz?

all done. thanks.

-monz

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗monz <monz@attglobal.net>

hi Joe,

> From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:55 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: _Blacklight_ now online!
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_45216.html#45224
>
> > keep up the great work (and pass my congratulations on to dan too)!
>
>
> ***Thanks so much, Paul, for the accolades (and also for Dan)!
> Either you're getting more "used" to my musical language and are
> liking it better or I'm just composing better! I would just as soon
> it be the latter!
>
> I added _Blacklight_ to the "Free Radio Blackjack" station that Gene
> is also on:
>
> http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/354/blackjack1.html
>
> I guess Gene and I are really the only two people actively composing
> in Blackjack at the moment? It would be interesting if some other
> people would give it a try... just to see what they would do with the
> scale.

add me to the growing list of fans of this piece!

it's my favorite of all the pieces by you which
i've heard so far (quite a few).

it even inspired me to begin a "Blackjack Scherzo"
last night! ... well, we'll see how much time i
have to devote to composing a *real* piece ... and
besides, i have a strong feeling that the tuning will
expand into Canasta, since that's the MIRACLE tuning
i've really been interested in since the beginning.
but anyway, i've done the opening few measures ...

-monz

🔗Graham Breed <graham@microtonal.co.uk>

🔗gdsecor <gdsecor@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Dave Keenan" <D.KEENAN@U...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > By the way, is the chronology as to the invention of Blackjack on
> > Monz' webpage accurate??:
>
> Yes. You can check it yourself ...
> >
> > I was wondering, in particular, about the "31-tone planar
> > microtemperament he had created some years back in collaboration
with
> > Paul Erlich and Carl Lumma..."
> >
> > How far back was that?? That's after, though, George Secor
> > discovered the generator, yes? I believe that was in 1975??
>
> I'm pretty sure George Secor published The Generator in
Xenharmonicon
> in 1975. I forget which issue. You there George?

No, I was away for a long weekend -- not back online till today.
Anyway, I haven't had time to follow all the goings-on lately -- just
searching postings every couple of days or so for my last name to see
if I need to respond to anything.

Re your question: XH3, which was published spring 1975 (but I
discovered the generator prior to that, late in 1974, as best as I
can remember). The temperament was described at the very bottom of
page 1 with the correct 11-limit minimax error, but I made a mistake
in giving the value of the generator. This was corrected in XH5
(spring 1976), and the correction appears in an addendum

The XH3 article appears in its entirety here, along with the
correction from XH5:

http://www.anaphoria.com/secor.PDF

I didn't mention any MOS scales in XH3 for the simple reason that I
didn't come in contact with the term until seeing it in Erv Wilson's
two articles in XH3 (which was also the first time the term appeared
in Xenharmonikon). But the MOS concept wasn't explained very clearly
there, and I don't think that I understood what Erv was referring to
until John Chalmers later mentioned it in a letter. By that time I
was busy working on the development of the generalized-keyboard
Scalatron and had put the Miracle temperament in the back of my mind.

When it came time to put a microtemperament of my own design on my
instrument as a hard-wired tuning (labeled "Secor"), I didn't even
consider the Miracle temperament, because I wasn't interested in
anything with a harmonic limit lower than the 13 limit.

So the Miracle temperament and the moment-of-symmetry scale concept
made their debut in print coincidentally in the same issue -- but it
took another 26 years (and a new century) for anyone to combine the
two ideas to produce the blackjack and canasta scales. (Paul, Dave --
congratulations!)

--George

🔗Paul Erlich <perlich@aya.yale.edu>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:

> So the Miracle temperament and the moment-of-symmetry scale concept
> made their debut in print coincidentally in the same issue -- but
it
> took another 26 years (and a new century) for anyone to combine the
> two ideas to produce the blackjack and canasta scales. (Paul,
Dave --
> congratulations!)
>
> --George

thanks! not that it matters, but dave and i were of course unaware of
your temperament article, and wilson's moment-of-symmetry article
didn't have an influence either (as dave's scale originally had 31
notes but in a planar, not linear, tuning, while my use of the
term 'MOS' for the 21-note scale is only a product of being on the
list with people like john chalmers and kraig grady for so long, the
concept having been clear to me before i ever heard this particular
term, just from looking at the diatonic scale and such) . . . it's
nice to know, though, that our work fit so well into that of
microtonal pioneers such as yourselves!

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_45216.html#45258

> hi Joe,
>
>
>
> > From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 4:55 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: _Blacklight_ now online!
> >
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_45216.html#45224
> >
> > > keep up the great work (and pass my congratulations on to dan
too)!
> >
> >
> > ***Thanks so much, Paul, for the accolades (and also for Dan)!
> > Either you're getting more "used" to my musical language and are
> > liking it better or I'm just composing better! I would just as
soon
> > it be the latter!
> >
> > I added _Blacklight_ to the "Free Radio Blackjack" station that
Gene
> > is also on:
> >
> > http://stations.mp3s.com/stations/354/blackjack1.html
> >
> > I guess Gene and I are really the only two people actively
composing
> > in Blackjack at the moment? It would be interesting if some
other
> > people would give it a try... just to see what they would do with
the
> > scale.
>
>
> add me to the growing list of fans of this piece!
>
> it's my favorite of all the pieces by you which
> i've heard so far (quite a few).
>
> it even inspired me to begin a "Blackjack Scherzo"
> last night! ... well, we'll see how much time i
> have to devote to composing a *real* piece ... and
> besides, i have a strong feeling that the tuning will
> expand into Canasta, since that's the MIRACLE tuning
> i've really been interested in since the beginning.
> but anyway, i've done the opening few measures ...
>
>
>
> -monz

***I'm really happy, monz, to get such a positive response to
_Blacklight_. Thank you. I can't help but think, however, that some
of this results from the unusually expressive playing by Dan Barrett.

I'll be interested in hearing your MIRACLE endeavors...

Joe