Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Carl, Paul, Johnny in the doctors office...

Gentlemen:

Johnny will not now, and never will, submit to any sort of Critical Pitch Test over the Internet as we know it. It is not in his belief system to accept the results of such test, nor even deign to consider it.

Paul and Carl seem compelled to call out Johnny on every one of his SuperHuman Pronouncements as to the ability to render pitches to at least the accuracy of one cent. They demand proof, in a measured and controlled fashion.

I'd like to ask the following, so that the bulk of the correspondents on this list can have a well-deserved break:

1. Johnny: don't make any more claims about your incredible pitch abilities - those that believe and care *do*, and those that don't want to see the wound before they believe, which they won't (see).

2. Carl/Paul: he ain't gonna submit, so can you just either give it a rest or correspond about it directly. It has gone so far beyond tiresome as to become irksome. If not mondo irksome.

You guys all need to go to a clean space, pull down your zippers, and take out the measuring tapes. When you're satisfied, report back. Until then, zip it.

Curmudgeonly,
Jon

🔗alternativetuning <alternativetuning@yahoo.com>

Jon Szanto:

I accept your advice, but with one point added. That Johnny should
also stop from putting down the musicianship of other people in this
public place. I think it is not fair to keep saying I can do A,B,C
and others can't, but not be willing to prove it.

On the other topic. Hungarian music is a complex topic. Real
Hungarian folkmusic, Roma folkmusic, composed hungarian "Nota"
(restaurant music), and music of all the neighbor nations. And what
about a region like Erdely (Transylvannia -- since Trianon treaty
belonging to Romania)? Hungarians, Roma, Romanians, Germans, Jews,
all live next to each other and all musicians play more than one kind
of music. The best Roma play everything, but real Roma music is
private to Roma.

You must know Muszikas and Sebastien Marta? That is the best
introduction for beginners. They also made a very good cd of Bartok
and his folk originals. But best of all are field recordings from
Erdely.

Gabor

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Gentlemen:
>
> Johnny will not now, and never will, submit to any sort of Critical
Pitch Test over the Internet as we know it. It is not in his belief
system to accept the results of such test, nor even deign to consider
it.
>
> Paul and Carl seem compelled to call out Johnny on every one of his
SuperHuman Pronouncements as to the ability to render pitches to at
least the accuracy of one cent. They demand proof, in a measured and
controlled fashion.
>
> I'd like to ask the following, so that the bulk of the
correspondents on this list can have a well-deserved break:
>
> 1. Johnny: don't make any more claims about your incredible pitch
abilities - those that believe and care *do*, and those that don't
want to see the wound before they believe, which they won't (see).
>
> 2. Carl/Paul: he ain't gonna submit, so can you just either give it
a rest or correspond about it directly. It has gone so far beyond
tiresome as to become irksome. If not mondo irksome.
>
> You guys all need to go to a clean space, pull down your zippers,
and take out the measuring tapes. When you're satisfied, report back.
Until then, zip it.
>
> Curmudgeonly,
> Jon

🔗Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>

Gabor,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "alternativetuning" <alternativetuning@y...> wrote:
> I accept your advice, but with one point added.

Yes, I understand. It is just that for many around here, this subject has been beaten to death, and the mere fact of passing of time and new people doesn't ever shed light. No more claims, no more tests I say. But I'm just one little guy around here... :)

> On the other topic. Hungarian music is a complex topic.

Yes, thanks for that response. I guess it is going to be for my 'retirement' years that I'll start to discover a little bit about what my grand and great-grandparents knew about.

> You must know Muszikas and Sebastien Marta?

Oh, absolutely. Began listening to them a number of years ago; a friend of mine from a klezmer band we both played in turned me on to them...

> But best of all are field recordings from Erdely.

Well, I don't know how much of this is germane to the list as a whole, but I would gladly love to hear recommendations of recordings that you think I could access (purchase) in the US (or import) - feel free to write me off-list or on, as you see fit.

Cheers,
Jon

🔗Patrick Grant <pg@patrickgrant.net>

Gentlefolks,

I just wanted to clarify a post from last year in which Johnny wrote:

*******

"Message 38197"

From: Afmmjr@a...
Date: Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:49 pm
Subject: Cents Sensibility

"After having my computer saved from hidden viruses, I thought I'd tell of
some comma fun I just had. I can now sing straight comma scales. Did it for
Joseph but he says he can't hear that finely."

"Then I demonstrated commas on an alto recorder (for which I posted
fingerings
last year) and then I sang what I played. It was easy to check because I
first outlined the schisma by isolating the distinction between the equal
tempered fifth and the perfect fifth. Composer Alyssa Ryvers was visiting
and she exclaimed, "the cent is big!"

"Finally, I have been recording improvisations for composer Patrick Grant.
He
tuned up a Kurtzweil (sic) synthesizer to single cent increments. I sang
along.
Then I asked him to sing a long with me a cappella. After resisting a bit
(because it was uninteresting to him), he joined in and we easily began an
ascent in single cents."

"I do not think, with a bit of training, musicians with good pitch
distinction
could fail to appreciate single cents."

"best, Johnny Reinhard"

*******

What happened on that day at my studio was this:

The session on June 24, 2002 started late (again) so I was irritable to
begin with. I wanted to get down to the task at hand, which was recording,
so any account of me being disinterested in hearing a cent should be put in
context. I have done experiments like this with my micro tunable keyboards
before so this was not anything new to me and was "gee whiz-y" at best.

Still, upon his insistence, I created a user definable scale on the Kurzweil
of 12 pitches, all a cent apart, in the middle C (C4 in MIDI parlance)
octave. This made the highest pitch in the scale (assigned to the key B4) 12
scents above middle C (C4). Timbrally, we used the grand piano samples.

Not looking at the keyboard and seeing the keys that I was hitting JR could,
every time, tell which adjacent notes were higher or lower, by a cent (i.e.
F4 to F#4 or A4 to Bb4) and I could hear them too. Anybody can when they are
played that isolated and that long in duration. Truly.

However, the one thing that couldn't be done with any accuracy was to, say,
play non-adjacent notes and have him say how far apart they were. That is to
say, to hit the keys C4 and G4 and have him exclaim "Oh, that's 7 cents
apart" or E4 and G#4 and say "Oh, now that's 4 cents apart."

Yes, I was resistant in singing single cent increments because I was like
"OK, I get it. Could we get on with what we're here for?" more than anything
else. The session was on my clock after all. It had nothing my lack of
interest in microtunings nor with having to do with me not finding JR
endlessly fascinating and enlightening.

In summary, yes, JR can hear single cents when they are adjacently placed. I
believe anybody can when a precision instrument of any kind is used. The
real trick is finding anybody who could nail down, with accuracy, pitches
that are non-adjacent and not necessarily either ascending or descending.

-PG
www.patrickgrant.com

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44851.html#44873

> In summary, yes, JR can hear single cents when they are adjacently
placed. I believe anybody can when a precision instrument of any
kind is used. The real trick is finding anybody who could nail down,
with accuracy, pitches that are non-adjacent and not necessarily
either ascending or descending.
>
> -PG
> www.patrickgrant.com

***Thanks so much, Patrick for your lightening post which
fortunately can be entitled "hearing ascent" rather than "smelling a
rat..."

Science and Art triumph, for once...

J. Pehrson

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Patrick Grant" <pg@p...> wrote:

> However, the one thing that couldn't be done with any accuracy was
to, say,
> play non-adjacent notes and have him say how far apart they were.
That is to
> say, to hit the keys C4 and G4 and have him exclaim "Oh, that's 7
cents
> apart" or E4 and G#4 and say "Oh, now that's 4 cents apart."

> The
> real trick is finding anybody who could nail down, with accuracy,
pitches
> that are non-adjacent and not necessarily either ascending or
>descending.

well, this is exactly the kind of audio test i had in mind -- a cd
with a series of recorded intervals that would have to be identified,
direction as well as magnitude.

this would seem a necessary part of a true 1200-equal ear-training
test, and the ability would seem prerequisite to being able to hear
in the mind's ear, and play or direct an ensemble playing, a musical
composition written in cents.

in light of this, the derision shown to existing and proposed
programs of more modest and limited microtonal ear-training and
notation, namely 72-equal and an associated 11-limit adaptive just
paradigm, seems uncalled for.

hopefully, this closes my contribution on this topic (notice that i
didn't even bring up the classical uncertainty principle this time
around!!)

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 6/20/03 5:53:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

> well, this is exactly the kind of audio test i had in mind -- a cd
> with a series of recorded intervals that would have to be identified,
> direction as well as magnitude.

I thank Patrick for his input on this surly subject. It is clear that people
get riled up when their pitch ability is questioned, or there is even
allusion to questioning. That's why I did a comedic approach to "Hearing a Cent" on
Feb. 8th. As to the ability to hear a cent, I suspect many on this list can
do so but have not had the proper framing.

Incidentally, my abilities have improved since that day at Patrick Grant's.
I can hear and vocalize more accurately 2 cents degrees, as well as the 1 cent
degrees. But before I go on, and alienate further, allow me to address a
detractor.

To Gabor, it is not about questioning musicianship. Carl and I have to work
things out with each other. To me, it is every bit insulting to say on the
List that I am trying to put people down by attacking their musicianship. All I
have been saying is that the internet is not the ideal format, like with a
hug.

> this would seem a necessary part of a true 1200-equal ear-training
> test, and the ability would seem prerequisite to being able to hear
> in the mind's ear, and play or direct an ensemble playing, a musical
> composition written in cents.

Yes, hearing the distinction of a cent either descending or ascending is
critical to true 1200-equal ear training. Surprisingly, that is what I have been
doing for many years, playing and directing musical compositions using cents
for a myriad of different tunings.

> in light of this, the derision shown to existing and proposed
> programs of more modest and limited microtonal ear-training and
> notation, namely 72-equal and an associated 11-limit adaptive just
> paradigm, seems uncalled for.
>

Please do use this information in any positive way you can.

> hopefully, this closes my contribution on this topic (notice that i
> didn't even bring up the classical uncertainty principle this time
> around!!)
>

Really? Jon will certainly be happy. Now if only I can make him happy. ; )

best, Johnny

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> > in light of this, the derision shown to existing and proposed
> > programs of more modest and limited microtonal ear-training and
> > notation, namely 72-equal and an associated 11-limit adaptive
just
> > paradigm, seems uncalled for.
>
> Isn't the 200-300 range a good place to shoot for?
>
> At the high end
we
> find 270 and 311; moreover 224 is quite interesting from this point
> of view, since it does a mean meantone (being two circles of the
> excellent 112-et mean) and a fine schismic, not to mention magic and
> octoid, etc. As for JI, it does well up to the 13-limit.

what is the percentage of trained musicians (sort of the issue --
whoops maybe not, you changed the subject line) who are prepared to
step up and master ear-training and notation for these divisions?

quarter-tones __%
sixth-tones __%
twelfth-tones __%
(311/6)th-tones __%

🔗Gene Ward Smith <gwsmith@svpal.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_44851.html#44917

> what is the percentage of trained musicians (sort of the issue --
> whoops maybe not, you changed the subject line) who are prepared to
> step up and master ear-training and notation for these divisions?
>
> quarter-tones __%
> sixth-tones __%
> twelfth-tones __%
> (311/6)th-tones __%

***Ok, here's one for *me...* Quarter-tones, I would say 100% for
all players under about 30 years of age. That's my experience.

Sixth-tones and twelfth-tones are a somewhat untested quantity. My
experience has, so far, been that it takes very special and
adventurous players (like Dan Barrett!) who are willing and
interested in trying these.

I would give a generous 45% for each of those...

And the last, *fuggetabbodit..."

(I realize this chart is mostly in jest, but I thought I'd venture
my "real world" experiences as they are...)

J. Pehrson