Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning JNMR article

Can,

Is what I see at that particular page an abstract or the entire body of your article, please? You got me interested in reading more!

Thanks,

Steve

At 08:23 AM 6/16/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Sorry, forgot to provide the link.
>
><http://www.swets.nl/jnmr/vol31_4.html>http://www.swets.nl/jnmr/vol31_4.html
>
>Can
>
>Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Hello All,
>
>I would appreciate your input and criticism on my article titled >"Non-Deterministic Scales Used in Traditional Turkish Music" that just >appeared in the Journal of New Music Research published in the Netherlands.
>
>Thanks.
>
>
>
>Can Akkoc
>
>
>
>
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🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>Hello All,
>
>I would appreciate your input and criticism on my article titled
>"Non-Deterministic Scales Used in Traditional Turkish Music" that
>just appeared in the Journal of New Music Research published in
>the Netherlands.

Congratulations, Can!

Good timing, with all the recent discussion here about the
appropriateness of fixed-pitch scales for modeling the tuning
of free-pitched instruments in performance.

Your histogram approach is something I've been hoping to see for
many years.

My comments so far are:

() The pdf I have doesn't have enough resolution for me to read
the labels on the axes on your figures!

() There is a lot of important information in footnotes, which
I would have brought up into the main article text.

() Who makes that sound->midi card? :)

() It isn't immediately clear the total duration accounted for
in each histogram. Do all of them contain 100% of some recording?
What was the length in seconds of that recording?

() The question I'd immediately ask is, "how does the cluster
analysis change as the total duration of the histogram is
changed?". Perhaps this is a good question to answer in a
future paper.

All in all, I think this is very high quality music theory,
compared to what I typically see when I sample articles from
journals like New Music Research (though I do not follow the
scene very closely).

Thank you,

-Carl

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

Dear Carl,

Thank you for your very kind words and comments/questions about my paper. I will respond below "between the lines".

Can Akkoc (Jon Ahkcoach ~ crude transliteration of my name)

Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org> wrote:

>Hello All,
>
>I would appreciate your input and criticism on my article titled
>"Non-Deterministic Scales Used in Traditional Turkish Music" that just appeared in the Journal of New Music Research published in the Netherlands.

Congratulations, Can!

Good timing, with all the recent discussion here about the appropriateness of fixed-pitch scales for modeling the tuning of free-pitched instruments in performance.

Your histogram approach is something I've been hoping to see for many years.

[Can] Wow, glad to hear that. I must have hit something useful in music theory?

My comments so far are:

() The pdf I have doesn't have enough resolution for me to read the labels on the axes on your figures!

[Can] I will mail a hard copy re-print to your snail-mail address if you could provide me with the information.

() There is a lot of important information in footnotes, which I would have brought up into the main article text.

[Can] Old fashioned maybe? Thanks for the advice though.

() Who makes that sound->midi card? :)

[Can] IVL Technologies in Canada. It is one of their "Pitchrider" series of external sound cards. The one I have runs only on 486 machines. I purchased it in 1991. They do not make it any longer.

() It isn't immediately clear the total duration accounted for in each histogram. Do all of them contain 100% of some recording? What was the length in seconds of that recording?

[Can] Both samples (taksims~improvisations)I used in this paper were in the order of 90 seconds. Length of the performance, determined initially in seconds by the sound card was normalized into percent. This allows me to compare different performances of varying length.

[Can] All histograms contain 100% of the taksim. What is displayed in the paper are a few selected samples from the entire histogram for the whole taksim showing pitch clusters at various locations along the pitch axis.

() The question I'd immediately ask is, "how does the cluster analysis change as the total duration of the histogram is changed?". Perhaps this is a good question to answer in a future paper.

[Can] I am not sure if I understand your question. The "global" histogram for the entire taksim - made up of discrete clusters along the pitch axis - represents 100% of the pitch information extracted from the recording.

All in all, I think this is very high quality music theory, compared to what I typically see when I sample articles from journals like New Music Research (though I do not follow the scene very closely).

Thank you,

[Can] I thank you. Such comments, coming from a professional musicologist and microtonalist is the ultimate appraisal for my work.

-Carl

Can Akkoc

can193849@yahoo.com

---------------------------------
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🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>>Your histogram approach is something I've been hoping to see for
>>many years.
>
>[Can] Wow, glad to hear that. I must have hit something useful in
>music theory?

It seems an obvious technique, but your paper is the first time
I've seen it used. Perhaps another list member knows of it being
used elsewhere?

I requested this feature for Michael Zarkey's "PC Raga Mastertuner"
monophonic pitch-tracking software in 1998, but he had stopped work
on the project by that time.

>>() Who makes that sound->midi card? :)
>
>[Can] IVL Technologies in Canada. It is one of their "Pitchrider"
>series of external sound cards. The one I have runs only on 486
>machines. I purchased it in 1991. They do not make it any longer.

I suppose this can be done in software these days easily enough.

>>() It isn't immediately clear the total duration accounted for in
>>each histogram. Do all of them contain 100% of some recording?
>>What was the length in seconds of that recording?
>
>[Can] Both samples (taksims~improvisations) I used in this paper
>were in the order of 90 seconds.

Aha.

>[Can] All histograms contain 100% of the taksim. What is displayed
>in the paper are a few selected samples from the entire histogram
>for the whole taksim showing pitch clusters at various locations
>along the pitch axis.

Ok, that's as I thought.

>>() The question I'd immediately ask is, "how does the cluster
>>analysis change as the total duration of the histogram is changed?".
>>Perhaps this is a good question to answer in a future paper.
>
>[Can] I am not sure if I understand your question. The "global"
>histogram for the entire taksim - made up of discrete clusters along
>the pitch axis - represents 100% of the pitch information extracted
>from the recording.

What happens if we make the histogram (say) 15 seconds wide and
advance it over the recording 10 seconds at a time? This is often
referred to as "windowing" in the use of the FFT transform; we can
look at your histogram as a '2nd-order FFT'.

You show time-plots of individual frames of the recording, and I'm
suggesting much the same for the histograms. Except in the case
of histograms, it is probably a good idea to arrange the frames so
that they overlap slightly (as they would if they were 15 sec. wide
and moved across the recording at 10 sec. intervals). Of course
overlap is meaningless for time-plots.

You begin to address this sort of question in your Discussion...

|| Two consecutive clusters are visited back to back at
|| different points in time, and at each visit the
|| musician has selected different set of frequencies
|| from the two clusters, thereby creating a variable
|| micro scale over the said zone. The following
|| question would be in order: during a melodic
|| progression which factors determine pitch selection
|| as the music visits different clusters in the
|| underlying scale?

>>All in all, I think this is very high quality music theory,
>>compared to what I typically see when I sample articles from
>>journals like New Music Research (though I do not follow the scene
>>very closely).
>>
>>Thank you,
>
>[Can] I thank you. Such comments, coming from a professional
>musicologist and microtonalist is the ultimate appraisal for my
>work.

It's very flattering, but like many contributors here, I'm not a
professional music theorist. We're very happy, though, that some
professionals are publishing serious work in the study of intonation.
And speaking for myself, I'm happy that serious work is being done
on traditional Turkish intonation in particular, which in my view
must have a key part in an eventual theory of the perceptual basis
of music.

-Carl

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org> wrote:
>>Your histogram approach is something I've been hoping >>to see for many years.
>
>[Can] Wow, glad to hear that. I must have hit something >useful in music theory?

It seems an obvious technique, but your paper is the first time I've seen it used. Perhaps another list member knows of it being used elsewhere?

[Can] I would be curious to find out myself.

I requested this feature for Michael Zarkey's "PC Raga Mastertuner" monophonic pitch-tracking software in 1998, but he had stopped work on the project by that time.

[Can] Was it going to include a real-time cumulative display of the global histogram showing how the pitch spectrum builds up to its final distribution?

>>() Who makes that sound->midi card? :)
>
>[Can] IVL Technologies in Canada. It is one of their >"Pitchrider" series of external sound cards. The one I >have runs only on 486 machines. I purchased it in 1991. >They do not make it any longer.

I suppose this can be done in software these days easily enough.

[Can] I have been looking for such software - not persistently though - without much success.

>>() It isn't immediately clear the total duration >>accounted for in each histogram. Do all of them >>contain 100% of some recording?
>>What was the length in seconds of that recording?
>
>[Can] Both samples (taksims~improvisations) I used in >this paper were in the order of 90 seconds.

Aha.

>[Can] All histograms contain 100% of the taksim. What is >displayed in the paper are a few selected samples from >the entire histogram for the whole taksim showing pitch >clusters at various locations along the pitch axis.

Ok, that's as I thought.

>>() The question I'd immediately ask is, "how does the >>cluster analysis change as the total duration of the >>histogram is changed?".
>>Perhaps this is a good question to answer in a future >>paper.
>
>[Can] I am not sure if I understand your question. The >"global" histogram for the entire taksim - made up of >discrete clusters along the pitch axis - represents 100% >of the pitch information extracted from the recording.

What happens if we make the histogram (say) 15 seconds wide and advance it over the recording 10 seconds at a time? This is often referred to as "windowing" in the use of the FFT transform; we can look at your histogram as a '2nd-order FFT'.

[Can] Now I get it. I never thought of doing this. Like a snail carrying its house on its back? Such sequence of "windowed" histograms would probably show the evolution of the pitch spectrum selected by the performing musician at various stages of the taksim. I think I will try this scheme. Now I am curious myself. Thank you.

You show time-plots of individual frames of the recording, and I'm suggesting much the same for the histograms. Except in the case of histograms, it is probably a good idea to arrange the frames so that they overlap slightly (as they would if they were 15 sec. wide
and moved across the recording at 10 sec. intervals). Of course overlap is meaningless for time-plots.

[Can] Got it. Such a "dynamic" analysis of the pitch spectrum might reveal sound structures I have not been able to uncover. Does this make sense to you?

You begin to address this sort of question in your Discussion...

>>All in all, I think this is very high quality music >>theory, compared to what I typically see when I sample >>articles from journals like New Music Research (though >>I do not follow the scene very closely).
>>
>>Thank you,
>
>[Can] I thank you. Such comments, coming from a >professional musicologist and microtonalist is the >ultimate appraisal for my work.

It's very flattering, but like many contributors here, I'm not a professional music theorist. We're very happy, though, that some professionals are publishing serious work in the study of intonation. And speaking for myself, I'm happy that serious work is being done on traditional Turkish intonation in particular, which in my view must have a key part in an eventual theory of the perceptual basis of music.

-Carl

[Can] Thanks again.

Can Akkoc

can193849@yahoo.com

---------------------------------
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🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

Joseph,

What you are seeing is only the abstract for the article. You need to subscribe to the online journal to read the whole article. However, I would be happy to send you the article in PDF format if you wish to see it.

Can Akkoc

Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com> wrote:
--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44700.html#44707

> >Hello All,
> >
> >I would appreciate your input and criticism on my article titled
> >"Non-Deterministic Scales Used in Traditional Turkish Music" that
> >just appeared in the Journal of New Music Research published in
> >the Netherlands.
>
> Congratulations, Can!
>
>

***I'm not seeing any interesting histogram here. In fact, I'm not
seeing any article, just paragraphs of description of various
articles. Maybe I'm not hunting enough... not a lot of time...

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🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

>>I requested this feature for Michael Zarkey's "PC Raga Mastertuner"
>>monophonic pitch-tracking software in 1998, but he had stopped work
>>on the project by that time.
>
>[Can] Was it going to include a real-time cumulative display of the
>global histogram showing how the pitch spectrum builds up to its
>final distribution?

That's what I asked him to implement, yes.

>>I suppose this can be done in software these days easily enough.
>
>[Can] I have been looking for such software - not persistently
>though - without much success.

I just searched google. These look promising...

http://www.recognisoft.com/

http://www.digital-ear.com/digital-ear/info.htm

>[Can] Now I get it. I never thought of doing this. Like a snail
>carrying its house on its back? Such sequence of "windowed"
>histograms would probably show the evolution of the pitch spectrum
>selected by the performing musician at various stages of the
>taksim. I think I will try this scheme. Now I am curious myself.
>Thank you.
>//
>[Can] Got it. Such a "dynamic" analysis of the pitch spectrum
>might reveal sound structures I have not been able to uncover.
>Does this make sense to you?

Yes. It's like "zooming in" on a particular part of the music.

-Carl

JNMR article

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

🔗Steve Langford <s@TheRiver.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

🔗Can Akkoc <can193849@yahoo.com>

🔗Carl Lumma <ekin@lumma.org>

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>