Debussy : La Cathedral

In Debussy's La Cathedral Engloutie, there is a place in the score where an
A flat becomes a G sharp (in the bass). The two notes are sounded one after
the other, with nothing else going on in other registers. On the page it
looks like the note descends but on a piano in 12 it comes out as the same
note being sounded.

The music is definitely for piano, but the enharmonic shift (just before a
key signature change to E (4 sharps), is notationally odd.

Has anyone tried this prelude in say 31 or a meantone? I wonder if that's
what Debussy had in mind?

Mark

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Gould" <mark.gould@a...> wrote:

> Has anyone tried this prelude in say 31 or a meantone? I wonder if
that's
> what Debussy had in mind?
>
> Mark

debussy certainly didn't have meantone in mind; he's famous for his
use of the 6-equal scale (aka whole-tone) which of course doesn't
exist in meantone.

>> Has anyone tried this prelude in say 31 or a meantone? I wonder if
>> that's what Debussy had in mind?
>>
>> Mark
>
>debussy certainly didn't have meantone in mind; he's famous for his
>use of the 6-equal scale (aka whole-tone) which of course doesn't
>exist in meantone.

???

Because Debussy is famous for using the wholetone scale, he couldn't
have had meantone in mind in a particular piece?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> Has anyone tried this prelude in say 31 or a meantone? I wonder
if
> >> that's what Debussy had in mind?
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> >debussy certainly didn't have meantone in mind; he's famous for
his
> >use of the 6-equal scale (aka whole-tone) which of course doesn't
> >exist in meantone.
>
> ???
>
> Because Debussy is famous for using the wholetone scale, he couldn't
> have had meantone in mind in a particular piece?
>
> -Carl

given the history of meantone tuning in continental europe and the
time frame in which debussy came up, you'd have to come up with some
pretty darn specific statements from debussy himself to make a
plausible case that he ever intended a tuning system significantly
more meantone than a closed 12-tone (in particular, one in which
enharmonic equivalents were to be tuned differently, which is what
mark was asking about). to the extent that enharmonic equivalents
were taught as different pitches after 1800 in europe, it was almost
always in the *opposite* direction from the meantone tendencies.

while mahler seems to have been an exception in that he was
knowledgeable and interested in meantone tuning, from what i know of
debussy anything similar on his part would be extremely surprising.

>given the history of meantone tuning in continental europe and the
>time frame in which debussy came up, you'd have to come up with some
>pretty darn specific statements from debussy himself to make a
>plausible case that he ever intended a tuning system significantly
>more meantone than a closed 12-tone (in particular, one in which
>enharmonic equivalents were to be tuned differently, which is what
>mark was asking about). to the extent that enharmonic equivalents
>were taught as different pitches after 1800 in europe, it was almost
>always in the *opposite* direction from the meantone tendencies.

Was Mark asking about the intended tuning of the instrument? I
thought he was merely pointing out an instance of respecting meantone
spelling in a score.

>while mahler seems to have been an exception in that he was
>knowledgeable and interested in meantone tuning, from what i know of
>debussy anything similar on his part would be extremely surprising.

I don't know anything about Debussy, except that he played his piano
music very differently than is the performance norm established by
recordings. But I think correct meantone spelling is a lot more
common than you seem to be saying. I was taught to respect it, for
example, before I knew anything about tuning. I don't play a lot of
20th century piano music, but I'll take a look at some of it, here...

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >given the history of meantone tuning in continental europe and the
> >time frame in which debussy came up, you'd have to come up with
some
> >pretty darn specific statements from debussy himself to make a
> >plausible case that he ever intended a tuning system significantly
> >more meantone than a closed 12-tone (in particular, one in which
> >enharmonic equivalents were to be tuned differently, which is what
> >mark was asking about). to the extent that enharmonic equivalents
> >were taught as different pitches after 1800 in europe, it was
almost
> >always in the *opposite* direction from the meantone tendencies.
>
> Was Mark asking about the intended tuning of the instrument? I
> thought he was merely pointing out an instance of respecting
meantone
> spelling in a score.

that's exactly what i was addressing, isn't it?

HI all,

thanks for the comments about the Aflat-Gsharp notation. What attracted my
attention to it was that the pianist (my partner) asked that if Debussy
was '12-et' composer, why bother with the renotation? - the passage before
has Aflat (bass) and C-D (treble). So Gsharp could have been used earlier
with no loss of visual smoothness in the notation. He said it looked and
felt like that there was a descent of pitch (he played Aflat then G), then
the first few bars subsequent a semitone lower. It works. Trouble is, the
movement then ends in B rather than C.

Whether Debussy was aware of tuning other than ET - he did go the Paris
Exposition, and did write Pagodes etc, so did hear music in alternative
tunings. That's nothing to do with meantone, I know, but visually and
psychologically, the mind's ear expects a descent.

I suspect that La Cathedral wouldn't work in a meantone - all those static
fifths would lose their gothic charm when rendered narrow by the
temperament. But then - would a more Pythagorean tuning work? - which of
course leads to the interesting side-effect that the Gsharp whould be
*higher* than the Aflat.

Mark

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >> Has anyone tried this prelude in say 31 or a meantone? I wonder
if
> >> that's what Debussy had in mind?
> >>
> >> Mark
> >
> >debussy certainly didn't have meantone in mind; he's famous for
his
> >use of the 6-equal scale (aka whole-tone) which of course doesn't
> >exist in meantone.
>
> ???
>
> Because Debussy is famous for using the wholetone scale, he couldn't
> have had meantone in mind in a particular piece?

Here it is in grail. Obviously, this must have been what Debussy had
in mind:

/tuning/files/grail/debcathg.mid

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Gould" <mark.gould@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44471.html#44560

> HI all,
>
> thanks for the comments about the Aflat-Gsharp notation. What
attracted my
> attention to it was that the pianist (my partner) asked that if
Debussy
> was '12-et' composer, why bother with the renotation? - the passage
before
> has Aflat (bass) and C-D (treble). So Gsharp could have been used
earlier
> with no loss of visual smoothness in the notation. He said it
looked and
> felt like that there was a descent of pitch (he played Aflat then
G), then
> the first few bars subsequent a semitone lower. It works. Trouble
is, the
> movement then ends in B rather than C.
>
> Whether Debussy was aware of tuning other than ET - he did go the
Paris
> Exposition, and did write Pagodes etc, so did hear music in
alternative
> tunings. That's nothing to do with meantone, I know, but visually
and
> psychologically, the mind's ear expects a descent.
>
> I suspect that La Cathedral wouldn't work in a meantone - all those
static
> fifths would lose their gothic charm when rendered narrow by the
> temperament. But then - would a more Pythagorean tuning work? -
which of
> course leads to the interesting side-effect that the Gsharp whould
be
> *higher* than the Aflat.
>
> Mark

***I thought I had this score, but I can't find it right now. My
guess, Mark is that the Ab-G# situation has more to do with voice
leading or maybe the implied harmonies in that section than any
explicit association with meantone. I think the fact that it's Ab-G#
rather than some other pitches is probably just coincidence... ??

J. Pehrson

On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 15:02:14 -0000, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
wrote:

>***I thought I had this score, but I can't find it right now. My
>guess, Mark is that the Ab-G# situation has more to do with voice
>leading or maybe the implied harmonies in that section than any
>explicit association with meantone. I think the fact that it's Ab-G#
>rather than some other pitches is probably just coincidence... ??

The Ab possibly has something to do with the fact that there's a G natural
in the same measure -- it would be less confusing than a G# -- plus the
implication that it's a major third below C (even though the C is a few
octaves higher). Respelling it as a G# makes sense in the next section,
which starts out sounding as if it's in C# minor with a melody that goes E
C# D# G# E C# G#.

I wondered what Debussy would sound like in meantone, so I did a quick MIDI
sequence of "Des pas sur la neige" (from the same set). It has similar
issues, most notably a respelling of B natural as Cb in two places. There's
also a bit near the end with a descending C# - Bb, immediately after a
bunch of Db's in the previous measure. I think the reason it's spelled as
C# is to avoid confusion with the D naturals -- C# down to Bb doesn't make
much sense as a meantone spelling.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/neige-qc.mid

The respelled notes are pretty obvious from listening to them. There are
also some "strange" spellings in other places. Clearly, playing Debussy's
Préludes in meantone as written doesn't quite work. I tried a Pythagorean
version to see if it was any better.

http://www.io.com/~hmiller/midi/neige-pyth.mid

So there it is. I don't expect the Cathédrale would come out much better.
Then you've got "Voiles" with all the whole tone sections (i.e., 6-ET!) I
wonder if "La fille aux cheveux de lin" would turn out any better?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:

> I wondered what Debussy would sound like in meantone, so I did a
quick MIDI
> sequence of "Des pas sur la neige" (from the same set).

Did you hear my cathedral retuning on tuning_files?
> So there it is. I don't expect the Cathédrale would come out much
better.
> Then you've got "Voiles" with all the whole tone sections (i.e., 6-
ET!) I
> wonder if "La fille aux cheveux de lin" would turn out any better?

Hmmm. Maybe I'll try Margo's temperament on Debussy.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

> Hmmm. Maybe I'll try Margo's temperament on Debussy.

I did this instead:

/tuning/files/Margo%27s%
20squirrely%20temperament/hpc.mid

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 05:30:13 -0000, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
wrote:

>--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> wrote:
>
>> I wondered what Debussy would sound like in meantone, so I did a
>quick MIDI
>> sequence of "Des pas sur la neige" (from the same set).
>
>Did you hear my cathedral retuning on tuning_files?

The grail version? Yes, it works just fine. Some of the parallel harmonies
are a little questionable, especially around 5:11-5:16. But not as bad as a
meantone B natural tied to a C flat.