Re: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler

> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:18 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > I managed to retune one movement of the Mahler 9 if you are
> interested.
> >
> >
> >
> > YES, LET'S HEAR IT!
> >
> >
> >
> > -monz
>
> There's something strange about this midi file which causes Timidity
> to go cuckoo, however I retuned everything Mahler I had available and
> for which Scala didn't give an error message.
>
> /tuning/files/grail/mahler.rar

thanks, Gene ... now, how about a link to a player
which will play .rar files? i haven't found one yet.
... or can you put it into .mp3 format, or even .wav?

-monz

Monz,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> thanks, Gene ... now, how about a link to a player
> which will play .rar files? i haven't found one yet.
> ... or can you put it into .mp3 format, or even .wav?

Gene is working in "assumption mode" again, assuming that you knew .rar was a file compression/archiving format, not a music compression/streaming format. Try finding a free RAR extractor at the following:

http://freefeast.com/UTILITIES/Compression/

Cheers,
Jon

>thanks, Gene ... now, how about a link to a player
>which will play .rar files? i haven't found one yet.
>... or can you put it into .mp3 format, or even .wav?

monz,

go get WinRAR.

-C.

hi Jon and Gene,

> From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 12:16 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> Monz,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > thanks, Gene ... now, how about a link to a player
> > which will play .rar files? i haven't found one yet.
> > ... or can you put it into .mp3 format, or even .wav?
>
> Gene is working in "assumption mode" again, assuming
> that you knew .rar was a file compression/archiving
> format, not a music compression/streaming format.
> Try finding a free RAR extractor at the following:
>
> http://freefeast.com/UTILITIES/Compression/

thanks, Jon. i obviously didn't know that, and you
were a real life-saver here.

Gene: can you *PLEASE* give us info about the tunings?
since the .rar file is saved under the "grail" folder,
am i right in assuming that the MIDI files are all
in "grail" tuning? (not that i have any idea what
that is ... i missed that thread ...)

it sounds to me like it's a 12-tone tuning, and i think
it works quite well for many of the Mahler selections,
in particular, "jungf.mid", which is a movement from
_Das Lied von der Erde_. this is a piece which is
basically very diatonic and even has a pentatonic
emphasis, since it's intended to evoke China.

"s5m5g.mid", the last movement of the 5th Symphony,
was generally pretty good too, with only a few
really obvious clinkers. and "s5m4g.mid", the
famous "Adagietto" which comes right before that,
sounds positively gorgeous to me! good job!

"mahl94.mid", the last movment of the 9th Symphony,
didn't work for me ... but not because of your
retuning, rather, because it's a lousy MIDI-file,
simply scanned in from the score and left unedited.
(i'm sending you my version in a private email.)

the one piece where i really thought this experiment
*didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me. i did
the whole first movement, broken up into 7 files ...
you used only 3 -- what happened to the other 4?
(is that the "Scala error message" to which you
referred? what was the error?)

anyway, the 7th is the work where Mahler really
went to the edge harmonically, and it's precisely
the big piece i intend to put into meantone, or
more likely, a meantone-based adaptive-JI.

in the 7th, there are many, many places where,
for example, C# and Db are manifestly *not* supposed
to be the same pitch! and Mahler is all over the
harmonic map on this one. so there's no way that
a 12-tone set will suffice, and there were *many*
moments in your retuned versions where the tuning
sounded awful.

i haven't done a "note inventory" of the 7th, but
i'd guess based on my familiarity with the score
that it probably would use all 31 notes of 31edo!
and in my proposed adaptive-JI scheme, in which i
hope to mimic the intonation of the actual performances
that were given under Mahler's direction (to the
best of my ability to discern what that was), there
will be pitch differences much more sophisticated
and subtle than that.

a tuning experiment which *i* found very interesting!

:)

-monz

(the biggest Mahler fan of them all ...
and there are a lot out there ... and some of
them are quite fanatical indeed!)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> Gene: can you *PLEASE* give us info about the tunings?
> since the .rar file is saved under the "grail" folder,
> am i right in assuming that the MIDI files are all
> in "grail" tuning? (not that i have any idea what
> that is ... i missed that thread ...)

It's grail, yes. If it is something like filebf.mid, the 1/1 is set to
B flat, filed.mid means it's set to D, and so forth.

> "s5m5g.mid", the last movement of the 5th Symphony,
> was generally pretty good too, with only a few
> really obvious clinkers.

When grail has a clinker, it is often an *interesting* clinker, since
it could be hitting some xenharmonic thirds--it has two exact
14/11 thirds and an exact 9/7 third, plus some decent subminor thirds.

> "mahl94.mid", the last movment of the 9th Symphony,
> didn't work for me ... but not because of your
> retuning, rather, because it's a lousy MIDI-file,
> simply scanned in from the score and left unedited.

I agree it seems fairly putrid, but at least Scala can retune it.

> (i'm sending you my version in a private email.)

Thanks! Should I commit retuning atrocities on it? :)

> the one piece where i really thought this experiment
> *didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
> MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me.

Wow, I didn't know that. Nice job!

i did
> the whole first movement, broken up into 7 files ...
> you used only 3 -- what happened to the other 4?
> (is that the "Scala error message" to which you
> referred? what was the error?)

Too many midi channels. It's the bane of this retuning business; there
are also some goofball files which cause other problems. Maybe Manuel
would be interested in taking a look.

> in the 7th, there are many, many places where,
> for example, C# and Db are manifestly *not* supposed
> to be the same pitch! and Mahler is all over the
> harmonic map on this one.

Romantic era composers (if you count Mahler as one) do seem to differ
in how much 12-equal suits them. After fooling with the Apassionata, I
decided it was a bad way to prove my point; the thing doesn't really
need sweet thirds and might sound rather interesting in Pythagorean.

so there's no way that
> a 12-tone set will suffice, and there were *many*
> moments in your retuned versions where the tuning
> sounded awful.

Grail is a strange new concept in circulating temperment, where weird
stuff does happen. I could try cauldron and see if you like it any
better, but it has the same problem--or feature.

hi Gene,

> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:25 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > Gene: can you *PLEASE* give us info about the tunings?
> > since the .rar file is saved under the "grail" folder,
> > am i right in assuming that the MIDI files are all
> > in "grail" tuning? (not that i have any idea what
> > that is ... i missed that thread ...)
>
> It's grail, yes. If it is something like filebf.mid,
> the 1/1 is set to B flat, filed.mid means it's set to D,
> and so forth.

OK ... but as i said, i missed everything you wrote
about grail and therefore have no idea what it is.
can you please just type a few words about it? thanks.

> > "s5m5g.mid", the last movement of the 5th Symphony,
> > was generally pretty good too, with only a few
> > really obvious clinkers.
>
> When grail has a clinker, it is often an *interesting*
> clinker, since it could be hitting some xenharmonic thirds
> --it has two exact 14/11 thirds and an exact 9/7 third,
> plus some decent subminor thirds.

hmmm ... i suspect that it's because Mahler's harmonic
and scalar idiom was generally so diatonic that that's
why these "interesting" intervals sound to me like
"clinkers". as i wrote later regarding the 7th Symphony,
my guess here is simply that he needs more than 12 notes,
because he does modulate quite freely in this piece.

> > "mahl94.mid", the last movment of the 9th Symphony,
> > didn't work for me ... but not because of your
> > retuning, rather, because it's a lousy MIDI-file,
> > simply scanned in from the score and left unedited.
>
> I agree it seems fairly putrid, but at least Scala can retune it.
>
> > (i'm sending you my version in a private email.)
>
> Thanks! Should I commit retuning atrocities on it? :)

of course!! be forewarned -- my MIDI-file of this
movement started out as the same one you already used,
and unfortunately i haven't yet finished working on it.
i've done a lot of work on phrasing and tempo up to
about the halfway point, then the second occurence of
the "interlude" section has been left as it was on the
original MIDI, then when the main theme comes back i
did more work on the next two or three variations, then
after the big climax everything from there to the end
is still the original MIDI.

the section i'm particularly interested in hearing
retuned is the section with the "jazz chords" around
7:00 - 8:00.

> > the one piece where i really thought this experiment
> > *didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
> > MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me.
>
> Wow, I didn't know that. Nice job!

thanks. been working on it intermittently since 1988.
(sheesh ... that's 15 years now! how time flies
when you're having fun ...)

> i did
> > the whole first movement, broken up into 7 files ...
> > you used only 3 -- what happened to the other 4?
> > (is that the "Scala error message" to which you
> > referred? what was the error?)
>
> Too many midi channels. It's the bane of this retuning
> business;

ah, my friend ... *now* you've put your finger right
on the problem of retuning Mahler MIDI-files! remember,
he's the guy who wrote the "Syphony of a Thousand"?

all my MIDI channels are *already* full and the whole
score is not even in there yet! so with my ordinary
MIDI setup there's absolutely no room left for the
pitch-bend/channel-bouncing shenanigans. i'd have
to set up a way to run *at least* 3 or 4 MIDI devices
in parallel (8 would be better) to get enough channels
to really do Mahler's work justice.

> there are also some goofball files which cause other
> problems. Maybe Manuel would be interested in taking a look.
>
> > in the 7th, there are many, many places where,
> > for example, C# and Db are manifestly *not* supposed
> > to be the same pitch! and Mahler is all over the
> > harmonic map on this one.
>
> Romantic era composers (if you count Mahler as one)

i most definitely do ... with a qualification:
Romantic on the threshold of Modern.

> do seem to differ in how much 12-equal suits them.
> After fooling with the Apassionata, I decided it was
> a bad way to prove my point; the thing doesn't really
> need sweet thirds and might sound rather interesting
> in Pythagorean.

i'm not surprised about that at all. the research
and experiments i've done on Beethoven's tuning
indicates to me that he was a big fan of 12edo,
or at least the *concept* of 12edo if he didn't
actually use it as a tuning. don't forget, his
greatest masterpieces were all written after he
went deaf.

> so there's no way that
> > a 12-tone set will suffice, and there were *many*
> > moments in your retuned versions where the tuning
> > sounded awful.
>
> Grail is a strange new concept in circulating temperment,
> where weird stuff does happen. I could try cauldron
> and see if you like it any better, but it has the
> same problem--or feature.

i'll happily listen to Mahler in any tuning you
choose to bathe him in! ;-)

believe me, some of the old "classic" recordings of
Mahler symphonies, with pick-up eastern European
orchestras and unknown/forgotten conductors, display
intonations which are *far* stranger than grail!

-monz

>Too many midi channels. It's the bane of this retuning business; there
>are also some goofball files which cause other problems. Maybe Manuel
>would be interested in taking a look.

You mean too few midi channels. Remember that MTS retuning doesn't
have this problem. Only then you must use Audio Compositor and a
good soundfont to render the midi file, you can't use Timidity.
Then you can distribute it as an mp3 or ogg file. Or everyone needs
to render the midi file themselves.
There's a good soundfont you could use, fluidr3122501.zip. Only it's
70 Mb compressed and 120 Mb uncompressed.

What other kind of problems?

Manuel

Manuel,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul" <manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
> There's a good soundfont you could use, fluidr3122501.zip. Only it's
> 70 Mb compressed and 120 Mb uncompressed.

That's pretty funny, Manuel - I googled and found the file, and I'm looking at a 4-5 hour download on dialup, assuming the connection stays good that long!

> What other kind of problems?

No broadband in my house. :)

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Manuel Op de Coul"
<manuel.op.de.coul@e...> wrote:
> >Too many midi channels. It's the bane of this retuning business; there
> >are also some goofball files which cause other problems. Maybe Manuel
> >would be interested in taking a look.
>
> You mean too few midi channels.

Right; after I sent that I realized I should have said too few!

Remember that MTS retuning doesn't
> have this problem. Only then you must use Audio Compositor and a
> good soundfont to render the midi file, you can't use Timidity.
> Then you can distribute it as an mp3 or ogg file. Or everyone needs
> to render the midi file themselves.
> There's a good soundfont you could use, fluidr3122501.zip. Only it's
> 70 Mb compressed and 120 Mb uncompressed.

I've had fluid; it may be on a backup disk, pre-crash. What's MTS?

> What other kind of problems?

I'll send some examples.

>I've had fluid; it may be on a backup disk, pre-crash.
>What's MTS?

Midi tuning standard. It's how I did the shootout.

/tuning/topicId_43429.html#43429

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> "s5m5g.mid", the last movement of the 5th Symphony,
> was generally pretty good too, with only a few
> really obvious clinkers. and "s5m4g.mid", the
> famous "Adagietto" which comes right before that,
> sounds positively gorgeous to me! good job!

I'm listening to a CD I cut, and something goes wrong
with s5m5, both in the g and d version. I wonder if your midi player
corrects errors?

> the one piece where i really thought this experiment
> *didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
> MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me.

I thought these were wonderful! I wonder if what we are hearing is at
all alike.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> Gene: can you *PLEASE* give us info about the tunings?
> since the .rar file is saved under the "grail" folder,
> am i right in assuming that the MIDI files are all
> in "grail" tuning? (not that i have any idea what
> that is ... i missed that thread ...)

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

Grail

/tuning/topicId_44053.html#44053

Cauldron

/tuning/topicId_44190.html#44190

/tuning/topicId_44220.html#44220

>I wonder if what we are hearing is at all alike.

That's why distributing sound files is a good idea.
It saves us from duplicating the work of rendering,
and it makes sure we're all hearing the same thing.

VBR mp3 centered on 96Kbps mono gives excellent
results. The bandwidth still won't be anything like
midi, but...

() We should be restricting ourselves to shorter
examples anyway, so we can cover more ground without
spending the whole day listening to music. In the
shootout, I tried to pick music that was short for
this reason.

() Downloading is generally less time-consuming than
rendering, which we all should be doing to get ideal
results, but so far I bet Gene is the only one doing.

Gene, if you send me midi and scl files, I can render
them with MTS in Audio Compositor.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:

> Gene, if you send me midi and scl files, I can render
> them with MTS in Audio Compositor.

I lost my reg code in a computer crash; I've emailed to see if I can
get it again.

As far as putting up mp3 or ogg files goes, they take up a lot of room.

>As far as putting up mp3 or ogg files goes, they take up a lot
>of room.

I addressed that.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44469

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > Gene: can you *PLEASE* give us info about the tunings?
> > since the .rar file is saved under the "grail" folder,
> > am i right in assuming that the MIDI files are all
> > in "grail" tuning? (not that i have any idea what
> > that is ... i missed that thread ...)
>
> It's grail, yes. If it is something like filebf.mid, the 1/1 is set
to
> B flat, filed.mid means it's set to D, and so forth.
>
> > "s5m5g.mid", the last movement of the 5th Symphony,
> > was generally pretty good too, with only a few
> > really obvious clinkers.
>
> When grail has a clinker, it is often an *interesting* clinker,
since
> it could be hitting some xenharmonic thirds--it has two exact
> 14/11 thirds and an exact 9/7 third, plus some decent subminor
thirds.
>
> > "mahl94.mid", the last movment of the 9th Symphony,
> > didn't work for me ... but not because of your
> > retuning, rather, because it's a lousy MIDI-file,
> > simply scanned in from the score and left unedited.
>
> I agree it seems fairly putrid, but at least Scala can retune it.
>
> > (i'm sending you my version in a private email.)
>
> Thanks! Should I commit retuning atrocities on it? :)
>
> > the one piece where i really thought this experiment
> > *didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
> > MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me.
>
> Wow, I didn't know that. Nice job!
>
> i did
> > the whole first movement, broken up into 7 files ...
> > you used only 3 -- what happened to the other 4?
> > (is that the "Scala error message" to which you
> > referred? what was the error?)
>
> Too many midi channels. It's the bane of this retuning business;
there
> are also some goofball files which cause other problems. Maybe
Manuel
> would be interested in taking a look.
>
> > in the 7th, there are many, many places where,
> > for example, C# and Db are manifestly *not* supposed
> > to be the same pitch! and Mahler is all over the
> > harmonic map on this one.
>
> Romantic era composers (if you count Mahler as one) do seem to
differ
> in how much 12-equal suits them. After fooling with the
Apassionata, I
> decided it was a bad way to prove my point; the thing doesn't really
> need sweet thirds and might sound rather interesting in Pythagorean.
>
> so there's no way that
> > a 12-tone set will suffice, and there were *many*
> > moments in your retuned versions where the tuning
> > sounded awful.
>
> Grail is a strange new concept in circulating temperment, where
weird
> stuff does happen. I could try cauldron and see if you like it any
> better, but it has the same problem--or feature.

***Did Gene every post this Mahler as a .mp3 file?? I really don't
have the time to extract a rare .rar...

Tx!

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***Did Gene every post this Mahler as a .mp3 file?? I really don't
> have the time to extract a rare .rar...

Rar extraction is no harder than zip extraction; I used it because
CoffeeCup didn't seem to want to zip up directories as an archive, but
I've learned my lesson.

>> ***Did Gene every post this Mahler as a .mp3 file?? I really don't
>> have the time to extract a rare .rar...
>
>Rar extraction is no harder than zip extraction; I used it because
>CoffeeCup didn't seem to want to zip up directories as an archive, but
>I've learned my lesson.

Rar is da bomb. I use it for all my backups. It supports NTFS streams.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Rar is da bomb. I use it for all my backups. It supports NTFS streams.

Then maybe you and Gene can explain it next time to the newbies on the list! BTW, I couldn't find a freeware version of WinRAR, which although I saw a few links to, would always resolve to their site that wanted registration for the program (AFAICT). I don't mind paying for a compression utility if I'm going to *compress* files, but I don't like those that would charge just to use it to *decompress* a file that, um, someone might upload...

Cheers, and have a good meeting tomorrow,
Jon

>BTW, I couldn't find a freeware version of WinRAR, which although I
>saw a few links to, would always resolve to their site that wanted
>registration for the program (AFAICT).

Huh. I've owned it for a while. They used to have a nag-screen
version that compressed and extracted.

I'm sure there are freeware utils out there.

-C.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44516

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > Rar is da bomb. I use it for all my backups. It supports NTFS
streams.
>
> Then maybe you and Gene can explain it next time to the newbies on
the list! BTW, I couldn't find a freeware version of WinRAR, which
although I saw a few links to, would always resolve to their site
that wanted registration for the program (AFAICT). I don't mind
paying for a compression utility if I'm going to *compress* files,
but I don't like those that would charge just to use it to
*decompress* a file that, um, someone might upload...
>
> Cheers, and have a good meeting tomorrow,
> Jon

***Quite frankly, my time at the moment is rather limited, so I just
wanted to quickly hear what the h*ll was going on with the Mahler. I
didn't want to get into a whole tutorial on a new way of unzipping
myself... (maybe I would be "in the mood" some other time...)

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> ***Quite frankly, my time at the moment is rather limited, so I just
> wanted to quickly hear what the h*ll was going on with the Mahler. I
> didn't want to get into a whole tutorial on a new way of unzipping
> myself... (maybe I would be "in the mood" some other time...)

A very good arguement for using common tools in larger, disparate groups: spend time focusing on the issue at hand, not the widgets. But life goes on...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >BTW, I couldn't find a freeware version of WinRAR, which although I
> >saw a few links to, would always resolve to their site that wanted
> >registration for the program (AFAICT).
>
> Huh. I've owned it for a while. They used to have a nag-screen
> version that compressed and extracted.
>
> I'm sure there are freeware utils out there.

Microsoft decided to make it freeware.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Carl Lumma" <ekin@lumma.org>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler

> >BTW, I couldn't find a freeware version of WinRAR, which although I
> >saw a few links to, would always resolve to their site that wanted
> >registration for the program (AFAICT).
>
> Huh. I've owned it for a while. They used to have a nag-screen
> version that compressed and extracted.
>
> I'm sure there are freeware utils out there.

the one i found and used is called Power Archiver

http://www.powerarchiver.com

it works great.

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> > I'm sure there are freeware utils out there.
>
> Microsoft decided to make it freeware.

Correction--the version I have isn't freeware, but it also isn't
nagware or crippleware.

hi Gene,

> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:22 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > "s5m5g.mid", the last movement of the 5th Symphony,
> > was generally pretty good too, with only a few
> > really obvious clinkers. and "s5m4g.mid", the
> > famous "Adagietto" which comes right before that,
> > sounds positively gorgeous to me! good job!
>
> I'm listening to a CD I cut, and something goes wrong
> with s5m5, both in the g and d version. I wonder if your
> midi player corrects errors?

don't know. i used regular old Windows Media Player
to play your retuned Mahler MIDIs. i don't recall
hearing any real problems, just some strangely tuned
notes now and then. :)

> > the one piece where i really thought this experiment
> > *didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
> > MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me.
>
> I thought these were wonderful! I wonder if what we are
> hearing is at all alike.

hmm ... well, if you wouldn't mind sending me a CD of
your retuned Mahler stuff, i'd be happy to listen to
it (again and again) and report on what i hear there.
then at least we know we're both hearing the same thing,
allowing for differences in speakers/headphones.

it could also be that i'm so familiar with, and so
fond of, Mahler's 7th, that i have pretty firmly
entrenched ideas on how it should sound, and those
ideas are based on a very deep study of Mahler and
his work as both composer and conductor. perhaps
in that piece i just have a low tolerance for notes
that are tuned too far out of the particular box
that i imagine.

-monz

hi Joe,

> From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:03 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> ***Did Gene every post this Mahler as a .mp3 file??
> I really don't have the time to extract a rare .rar...

i'll email you the grail-tuned Adagietto, since
that was the grail-Mahler which impressed me the
most.

(if the owner of tuning_files approves my membership,
i'll upload all of the grail-Mahler MIDIs to that list.)

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> (if the owner of tuning_files approves my membership,
> i'll upload all of the grail-Mahler MIDIs to that list.)

That's where they are already. Perhaps I should uncompress them.

hi Gene,

> From: "monz" <monz@attglobal.net>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> hi Gene,
>
>
> > From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 3:22 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> <snip>
>
> > > [me, monz:]
> > > the one piece where i really thought this experiment
> > > *didn't* work was in the 7th Symphony ... and the
> > > MIDI-files you used, BTW, were made by me.
> >
> > I thought these were wonderful! I wonder if what we are
> > hearing is at all alike.
>
>
> hmm ... well, if you wouldn't mind sending me a CD of
> your retuned Mahler stuff, i'd be happy to listen to
> it (again and again) and report on what i hear there.
> then at least we know we're both hearing the same thing,
> allowing for differences in speakers/headphones.
>
>
> it could also be that i'm so familiar with, and so
> fond of, Mahler's 7th, that i have pretty firmly
> entrenched ideas on how it should sound, and those
> ideas are based on a very deep study of Mahler and
> his work as both composer and conductor. perhaps
> in that piece i just have a low tolerance for notes
> that are tuned too far out of the particular box
> that i imagine.

my opinions of your grail-Mahler retunings were
based on a single listening to each file, and those
were all thru headphones. in light of what you wrote
here, i tried listening to the 7th thru speakers, and
must admit that in general it sounds pretty good!
there are only a very few spots where i hear a note
which sounds grossly mistuned.

i think what bothered me the most thru headphones
was the channel-swapping that had to be done by
Scala to allow certain parts to have the same
pitch-bend. i have all my Mahler 7th MIDI channels
panned to simulate the orchestral placement of
Mahler's orchestra, and when a certain parts switches
from one channel to another repeatedly, the left/right
pan switches with it, and in headphones it's very
annoying. thru the speakers it's much less noticeable.

is there ever going to be a new MIDI spec that will
give us 128 or 256 channels, so that i can do Mahler
the justice he deserves? ... believe me, if *you*
haven't spent 15 years trying to squeeze a Mahler
symphony into 16 MIDI channels, you have no idea
how frustrating it is.

-monz

Joe,

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> believe me, if *you*
> haven't spent 15 years trying to squeeze a Mahler
> symphony into 16 MIDI channels, you have no idea
> how frustrating it is.

That is because it is written for a large ensemble of live, acoustic instruments, not for MIDI. Have you ever tried to get the music of Yes played by a large ensemble of live, acoustic instruments? It doesn't work, for a very analogous reason.

But seriously, you have just been working too hard at trying to utilize the MIDI system as you currently have it. If you were to have a 4 port MIDI box, you would immediately be open to 64 channels, and then all you would need is a rack of samplers or synths and you'd be good to go. That's how they do it up in La-La Land every day of the week. Sometime check out Hans Zimmer's or James Newton Howard's studio/composing setup.

The limits are no more in the spec than the fact that an oboe has less than a 3 octave range. You just need to max out what you have and get more if you need it...

Cheers,
Jon

>That is because it is written for a large ensemble of live, acoustic
>instruments, not for MIDI. Have you ever tried to get the music of Yes
>played by a large ensemble of live, acoustic instruments? It doesn't
>work, for a very analogous reason.

Eee, Szanto, you a Yes fan?

Yes could be successfully transcribed for classical instruments, I'm
positive. Just never been done, or even attempted that I know of.
All of the 'symphonic' Yes albums have relegated the symphony to
backup.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> Eee, Szanto, you a Yes fan?

Ummm, not *exactly*. "Roundabout" was a big one for me when I was in high school (yes, call the hospital supply places and get my order in for a walker...), but I lost interest not long after that.

> Yes could be successfully transcribed for classical instruments, I'm
> positive.

I heartily disagree, though in their more Mantovani-like moments you may be more correct.

> Just never been done, or even attempted that I know of.
> All of the 'symphonic' Yes albums have relegated the symphony to
> backup.

Because they pretty much wanted it that way, using the orch as window dressing and a way to sell tickets. I happened to be in the first concert they did 3 years ago when they started touring in front of an orchestra; one of my best friends and colleagues, a film and concert composer of very good chops (and who had been a REAL Yes fan for decades) was tapped by the band to do the arrangements. He worked hard with them to find something that worked, did the best he could to add to what were already bloated and busy tunes, and came up with fairly good backing material (any time the orch stuff started to have any presence or character they complained). After a lot of hard work and a successful beginning to the tour, they shafted him and got a cheap for-hire conductor.

During rehearsals I was apalled at the low-level of musicianship in the band, though I didn't get much of a sense of Steve Howe, as he seemed in his own little world and focussed on his solos. But they couldn't even discuss music in basic musical terms, and the end result often looked like out-takes from "Spinal Tap".

It bums me, because while I didn't stay with the band for years I had fond memories and some nice tunes in my head, and they managed to blow that out of the water by being clods. Any rock and roll band worth it's salt comprises an energy and edge that no orchstration I've ever heard or played can match. The closest I've ever heard a classical group capture the zip of 'rock' was Ensemble Moderne's traversal of Zappa's music on "The Yellow Shark". Plenty of bite, tight rhythms and agressive sound. Orchestras can't really do that.

At least not as currently constituated. In the future? Who knows??

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44525

>
> hi Joe,
>
>
> > From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 6:03 PM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
> >
> >
> > ***Did Gene every post this Mahler as a .mp3 file??
> > I really don't have the time to extract a rare .rar...
>
>
> i'll email you the grail-tuned Adagietto, since
> that was the grail-Mahler which impressed me the
> most.
>
>
> (if the owner of tuning_files approves my membership,
> i'll upload all of the grail-Mahler MIDIs to that list.)
>
>
>
> -monz

***This is just great, Monz! Thanks for the fully unzipped version...

The tuning works great. It sounds wonderful in "Grail."

Now if I have been following this discussion properly (this is
unlikely) Grail is somehow related to a 31-equal tuning? Or am I
mixing things up.

Also (I have to make this comment, although it's
metamusicalphilosophy and not real intonation, the place where Mahler
stands right between Romanticism and Modernism is absolutely
fascinating... feet firmly in both ponds...)

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44527

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > (if the owner of tuning_files approves my membership,
> > i'll upload all of the grail-Mahler MIDIs to that list.)
>
> That's where they are already. Perhaps I should uncompress them.

***Yes, please do that, Gene. It would save some of us some time...

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> my opinions of your grail-Mahler retunings were
> based on a single listening to each file, and those
> were all thru headphones. in light of what you wrote
> here, i tried listening to the 7th thru speakers, and
> must admit that in general it sounds pretty good!
> there are only a very few spots where i hear a note
> which sounds grossly mistuned.

I sent you some Mahler records today in both grail and cauldron; I
couldn't get a retuning of your version of the 9th in grail, but did
in cauldron.

> is there ever going to be a new MIDI spec that will
> give us 128 or 256 channels, so that i can do Mahler
> the justice he deserves?

I dunno, but people are using 32 channels these days. I got my reg
code for Audio Compositor in email today, so when the man says one
registration covers all versions, past, present and future, he means
it. I'll see how that works, but I may need to download some sf2 files
again.

... believe me, if *you*
> haven't spent 15 years trying to squeeze a Mahler
> symphony into 16 MIDI channels, you have no idea
> how frustrating it is.

Then once you succeed, you've managed to make retuning it with Scala
hard or impossible--at least without MTS.

hi Joe,

> From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 4:46 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> ***This is just great, Monz! Thanks for
> the fully unzipped version...

[of the "Adagietto" from Mahler's 5th]

> The tuning works great. It sounds wonderful
> in "Grail."

i really liked it too.

> Now if I have been following this discussion
> properly (this is unlikely) Grail is somehow
> related to a 31-equal tuning? Or am I mixing
> things up.

i'm looking forward to the answer to this as
much as you are. :)

> Also (I have to make this comment, although it's
> metamusicalphilosophy and not real intonation,
> the place where Mahler stands right between
> Romanticism and Modernism is absolutely fascinating
> ... feet firmly in both ponds...)

just one of the many reasons why i find his work
so fascinating. actually, the man himself is
fascinating too.

there's a very interesting parallel here with
Beethoven, who just as firmly had one foot each
planted in Classicism and Romanticism a century before.
Beethoven and Wagner were Mahler's two great musical
idols, so it's not surprising to find parallels.

(the parallels between composers which really
surprised me were those between Partch and Schoenberg,
altho there one must also admit that the most
radical differences also exist. still, i find
the parallels between those two amazing.)

PS -- my membership to tuning_files was approved,
so i've started uploading all of Gene's grail-Mahler
MIDI-files to the "files" section of that list.

/tuning_files/files/grail-Mahler/

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> Joe,
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > believe me, if *you*
> > haven't spent 15 years trying to squeeze a Mahler
> > symphony into 16 MIDI channels, you have no idea
> > how frustrating it is.
>
> That is because it is written for a large ensemble of live,
>acoustic instruments, not for MIDI. Have you ever tried to get the
>music of Yes played by a large ensemble of live, acoustic
>instruments? It doesn't work, for a very analogous reason.

at least according to gregor kipnis, new york avant-garde violinist
extraordinaire, participator in both the AFMM Ives _Universe
Symphony_ recording and the orchestral Yes show at Madison Square
Garden, the situation had improved markedly by the time the tour hit
the east coast . . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> the situation had improved markedly by the time the tour hit
> the east coast . . . .

The Yes thread is at meta. And the 'situation' still sucked whenever they did their recording, which was post-tour I think.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> > Now if I have been following this discussion
> > properly (this is unlikely) Grail is somehow
> > related to a 31-equal tuning? Or am I mixing
> > things up.

> i'm looking forward to the answer to this as
> much as you are. :)

Rainbow is related to 31-et and cauldron to 19-et; grail is too
irregular to relate to any equal temperament.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44555

>>
> PS -- my membership to tuning_files was approved,
> so i've started uploading all of Gene's grail-Mahler
> MIDI-files to the "files" section of that list.
>
> /tuning/files/grail-Mahler/
>
>

***This is helpful. Somebody hadda do it. Thanks, Monz!

Joe P.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44557

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
> > Joe,
> >
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > believe me, if *you*
> > > haven't spent 15 years trying to squeeze a Mahler
> > > symphony into 16 MIDI channels, you have no idea
> > > how frustrating it is.
> >
> > That is because it is written for a large ensemble of live,
> >acoustic instruments, not for MIDI. Have you ever tried to get the
> >music of Yes played by a large ensemble of live, acoustic
> >instruments? It doesn't work, for a very analogous reason.
>
> at least according to gregor kipnis, new york avant-garde violinist
> extraordinaire, participator in both the AFMM Ives _Universe
> Symphony_ recording and the orchestral Yes show at Madison Square
> Garden, the situation had improved markedly by the time the tour
hit
> the east coast . . . .

***Hi Paul,

Don't you mean Kitzis?? (If I have it spelled right...) Kipnis is
somebody else very famous, I believe, yes??

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44561

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> > > Now if I have been following this discussion
> > > properly (this is unlikely) Grail is somehow
> > > related to a 31-equal tuning? Or am I mixing
> > > things up.
>
> > i'm looking forward to the answer to this as
> > much as you are. :)
>
> Rainbow is related to 31-et and cauldron to 19-et; grail is too
> irregular to relate to any equal temperament.

***What is the advantage of the Mahler in it, then, Gene?? It would
be interesting to hear Mahler in 31-tET as Monz mentions...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> > Rainbow is related to 31-et and cauldron to 19-et; grail is too
> > irregular to relate to any equal temperament.
>
> ***What is the advantage of the Mahler in it, then, Gene?? It would
> be interesting to hear Mahler in 31-tET as Monz mentions...

The sharp thirds of grail are exact consonances, and so don't sound
sourly out of tune like those of rainbow (even though those are less
sharp.) Simply retuning to 12 notes of 31-equal meantone would give
howling wolves; you'd need to actually do the work of transscribing it.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44624

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
>
> > > Rainbow is related to 31-et and cauldron to 19-et; grail is too
> > > irregular to relate to any equal temperament.
> >
> > ***What is the advantage of the Mahler in it, then, Gene?? It
would
> > be interesting to hear Mahler in 31-tET as Monz mentions...
>
> The sharp thirds of grail are exact consonances, and so don't sound
> sourly out of tune like those of rainbow (even though those are less
> sharp.) Simply retuning to 12 notes of 31-equal meantone would give
> howling wolves; you'd need to actually do the work of transscribing
it.

***Oh sure.... that would make sense since it's circulating 1/4
comma... thanks!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:

> > The sharp thirds of grail are exact consonances, and so don't
sound
> > sourly out of tune like those of rainbow (even though those are
less
> > sharp.) Simply retuning to 12 notes of 31-equal meantone would
give
> > howling wolves; you'd need to actually do the work of
transscribing
> it.
>
> ***Oh sure.... that would make sense since it's circulating 1/4
> comma... thanks!

There are, of course plenty of pieces which work just fine in 1/4-
comma or rainbow; here's another cute example:

/tuning/files/rainbow/ticf.mid

>/tuning/files/rainbow/ticf.mid
--
Simply beautiful! Thanks, Gene.

-Steve-

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44459.html#44629

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
> wrote:
>
> > > The sharp thirds of grail are exact consonances, and so don't
> sound
> > > sourly out of tune like those of rainbow (even though those are
> less
> > > sharp.) Simply retuning to 12 notes of 31-equal meantone would
> give
> > > howling wolves; you'd need to actually do the work of
> transscribing
> > it.
> >
> > ***Oh sure.... that would make sense since it's circulating 1/4
> > comma... thanks!
>
> There are, of course plenty of pieces which work just fine in 1/4-
> comma or rainbow; here's another cute example:
>
> /tuning/files/rainbow/ticf.mid

***This is charming, Gene. It seems like you're really doing a lot
of stuff lately. I hope these lists have been an inspiration, and I
think they have, since I can't recall you doing all this
composing/arranging when you first came to the lists...

J. Pehrson

hello Gene,

(and to the Mahler-list members: this is part of an
ongoing thread over at the Yahoo tuning-list. i
started going a little off-topic here so thought
that you guys might like to read it. :) )

> From: "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@svpal.org>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 9:58 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: retuned Mahler
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" wrote:
>
> > > Rainbow is related to 31-et and cauldron to 19-et;
> > > grail is too irregular to relate to any equal
> > > temperament.
> >
> > ***What is the advantage of the Mahler in it,
> > then, Gene?? It would be interesting to hear Mahler
> > in 31-tET as Monz mentions...
>
> The sharp thirds of grail are exact consonances, and
> so don't sound sourly out of tune like those of rainbow
> (even though those are less sharp.) Simply retuning to
> 12 notes of 31-equal meantone would give howling wolves;
> you'd need to actually do the work of transscribing it.

right. it's important to note that my hypothesis about
Mahler using meantone is taken in the context of
*orchestral* playing, and so it does not necessarily
assume a limitation to 12 pitches. the orchestra's
intonation (for the vast majority of instruments,
anyway) is flexible enough to play in *any* version
of meantone, and capable of extending it to any
number of "5ths" in the meantone chain.

Mahler became closely associated with Schoenberg
in 1904, the year Mahler completed his 6th Symphony
and wrote the 2nd and 4th movements of the 7th.
in 1905 he wrote the 1st, 3rd, and 5th movements of
the 7th.

i can see a strong correlation between their musical
styles and the types of harmonic explorations in which
they were both engaging in their compositions of 1905-1906
(1st, 3rd, and 5th movements of Mahler's 7th Symphony,
and Schoenberg's _Kammersymphonie_ [chamber symphony]).

thruout his career, Mahler frequently used
double-sharps in his sketches and scores, whereas
Schoenberg decided to use the 12edo-enharmonically
-equivalent naturals instead, for ease of reading
by the performers and conductors.

unfortunately, this policy is the one that has been
taken by the editors of the Mahler Critical Edition,
which has issued his entire output in hardbound
volumes and is now the standard text for nearly all
of his work. in meantone the naturals are different
pitches from their "enharmonically equivalent"
double-sharps.

my plan is to retune Mahler into 31edo as a start,
adhering scrupulously to the notation of accidentals
in his manuscripts and the editions published during
his lifetime (which he revised carefully up to the
8th Symphony). then i want to try applying adaptive-JI,
and that will still be based on meantone.

-monz