practical organ tuning question; Bach and Messiaen

Hello everyone,

New to the list, and right away I am coming up with an "emergency" question.
Thanks for your forebearance and I will appreciate any guidance that comes
my way. I hope this is the right list for a question like this.

I would like to _quickly_ come up with a tuning to try on an organ, in the
well-tempered category that will do well with Bach but not destroy Messiaen.

I have noticed that some of my favorite Messiaen pieces hang out around Bmjr
and F#mjr a lot, and am concerned about putting a Bach-oriented tuning on
the pipes. I would perhaps rather compromise the Bach in some interesting
way (at least I am getting out of 12eq) rather than do damage to the
Messiaen. Still I would like to have a little more stillness around C and G
major.

But maybe well-tempered is no problem for Messiaen?

I just browsed the list archives a bit, and I see that there are vast
territories to learn about that I have not been exposed to, but I need to
come up with a tuning to try in 2 or 3 days.

The organ in question is a small (200 pipe, 3 rank, no reeds) unified Moller
that includes a couple of unified 2-2/3 stops (from the stopped flute rank
and from the salicional rank, the latter together with the 2' salicional
serving to add some (somewhat subtle) upper spectrum to go with the 8'/4'
conical principal).

I have been warned that some organs may not tolerate much of a different
tuning from the one the pipes were made for. But I am just guessing
(nievely) that a well-tempered tuning will not be so far off from 12eq to
stress the range of any of the pipes. Also I _assume_ I could adjust the
overall pitch to try to equalize the balance between pipes tuned sharper and
pipes tuned flatter. Or perhaps emphasising more flat or more sharp will
turn out to be a better strategy depending on what limitations we run into
as we tune.

The top priority is using the organ by itself, not with other instruments.

Thanks for any input.

-Kurt Bigler

Hi Kurt,

My research points to Werckmeister III tuning for JS Bach. I'm not sure if
you will like it for 20th century work, or not. Messiaen was an equal tempered
kind of guy, even when writing for the birds. But Werckmeister III will work
in every key.

best, Johnny Reinhard

Hello Kurt!

>But maybe well-tempered is no problem for Messiaen?

The best approach would be to quickly try a few tunings on a synthesizer.
If you have a midi keyboard, great. If not, you can download some Bach
and Messiaen midi files from the web and retune them.

How?

With Scala...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

>I just browsed the list archives a bit, and I see that there are vast
>territories to learn about that I have not been exposed to, but I need
>to come up with a tuning to try in 2 or 3 days.

I've placed some Scala files in this group's "files" section...

/tuning/files/carl/kurt.zip

They are...

pythag.scl
3-limit just intonation ("Pythagorean" tuning), for reference.

werck3.scl
The famous Werckmeister III; probably the most popular temperament
of Bach's time.

young.scl
Pretty close to equal temperament. I use it for everything.

grail.scl
A temperament by Gene Ward Smith. See his post from a few moments
ago.

smith-pure3.scl
Temperament by Gene with 3 pure major thirds.

smith-pure5.scl
Another by Gene with 6 pure perfect fifths.

lester.scl
A 7-limit JI file for fun.

>I have been warned that some organs may not tolerate much of a different
>tuning from the one the pipes were made for. But I am just guessing
>(nievely) that a well-tempered tuning will not be so far off from 12eq to
>stress the range of any of the pipes.

You are guessing correctly (with the exception of lester.scl).

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44052.html#44056

> Hi Kurt,
>
> My research points to Werckmeister III tuning for JS Bach. I'm not
sure if you will like it for 20th century work, or not. Messiaen was
an equal tempered kind of guy, even when writing for the birds.

***Hi Johnny,

Of course you must mean in the basic system that Messiaen used. With
his *wild* theremin all over the place, such as in Turangalîla-
Symphonie, the net effect is quite microtonal, I believe... ??
Wasn't he also trying to reconcile various harmonics to visual
colors?? I thought I remembered that... ??

Joseph

In a message dated 6/2/03 10:20:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jpehrson@rcn.com
writes:

>
> ***Hi Johnny,
>
> Of course you must mean in the basic system that Messiaen used. With
> his *wild* theremin all over the place, such as in Turangalîla-
> Symphonie, the net effect is quite microtonal, I believe... ??
> Wasn't he also trying to reconcile various harmonics to visual
> colors?? I thought I remembered that... ??
>
>

I thought Messiaen used "ondes martenot" which is equal tempered, and not
theremin. I also know of an early experiment he did with quartertones, but which
he held back from circulation. Messiaen was a secret supporter of equal
temperament based Ivan Wyschnegradsky (although Wyschnegradsky used ETs such as
36, 31, and others).

best, Johnny

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> I thought Messiaen used "ondes martenot" which is equal tempered, and not
> theremin.

Absolutely correct. In fact, the recently West-premiered (in San Fran, first time since Europe a *long* time ago) opera "St. Francis" uses TWO onde-m's.

Lots of portamento, but 12eq keys AFAIC.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_44052.html#44064

> In a message dated 6/2/03 10:20:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jpehrson@r...
> writes:
>
>
> >
> > ***Hi Johnny,
> >
> > Of course you must mean in the basic system that Messiaen used.
With
> > his *wild* theremin all over the place, such as in Turangalîla-
> > Symphonie, the net effect is quite microtonal, I believe... ??
> > Wasn't he also trying to reconcile various harmonics to visual
> > colors?? I thought I remembered that... ??
> >
> >
>
> I thought Messiaen used "ondes martenot" which is equal tempered,
and not theremin. I also know of an early experiment he did with
quartertones, but which he held back from circulation. Messiaen was
a secret supporter of equal temperament based Ivan Wyschnegradsky
(although Wyschnegradsky used ETs such as 36, 31, and others).
>

***Hi Johnny,

Ah, yes, you are right, it is the "Ondes Martenot." However, the
Ondes has a *ribbon* in front of the keys which may be used for
continuous portimento. Certainly it's used that way in the
Turangalila...

Joe