LA Weekly review

http://laweekly.com/ink/03/27/a-rich.php

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

So what do you guy think? Is it confusing that there are 2 Microfests, one
on each coast? Or is any confusion minutiae?

best, Johnny Reinhard

(who plays in both)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43804

> So what do you guy think? Is it confusing that there are 2
Microfests, one
> on each coast? Or is any confusion minutiae?
>
> best, Johnny Reinhard
>
> (who plays in both)

***Hi Johnny, and all...

Well, if I read the Alan Rich article in the LA Weekly correctly, he
stated that *most* major cities nowadays have "MicroFests."

I think that's possibly a little optimistic, although it's nice that
he thinks that! :)

Wasn't his example of why JI "doesn't work" rather strange: a
modulation from G# major to Ab major.

Does that make any sense? Why would somebody want to do that? :)

Wouldn't there be better examples of what he was trying to get at??

Tx!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> Wasn't his example of why JI "doesn't work" rather strange: a
> modulation from G# major to Ab major.
>
> Does that make any sense?

no, but he did say he was grossly oversimplifying.

> Wouldn't there be better examples of what he was trying to get at??
>
> Tx!
>
> JP

of course. firstly he might have avoided repeating the common
misconception that baroque music pre-bach was in just intonation, and
have mentioned meantone instead. from there, i'm sure even *you* could
come up with a good example :)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43817

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
>
> > Wasn't his example of why JI "doesn't work" rather strange: a
> > modulation from G# major to Ab major.
> >
> > Does that make any sense?
>
> no, but he did say he was grossly oversimplifying.
>
> > Wouldn't there be better examples of what he was trying to get
at??
> >
> > Tx!
> >
> > JP
>
> of course. firstly he might have avoided repeating the common
> misconception that baroque music pre-bach was in just intonation,
and have mentioned meantone instead. from there, i'm sure even *you*
could come up with a good example :)

***hehe... well, first off, it might be worthwhile to try to figure
out what he's comparing to what! It rather looks as though he's
comparing a just intonation scale to equal temperament, although it's
hard to tell, and it doesn't seem that knows *himself* what he's
comparing.

Although, since he mentions G# and Ab it seems he's fixating on
*meantone* problems... Therefore, wouldn't it be better if he were
just to say that in the typical meantone system (a kind of just after
all) all the more remote chords in "black note keys" are out of tune
so one couldn't modulate to them from "white note" chords
effectively??

This situation pertains as well to the entirely just scales, too,
yes?, since the lack of "unison vectoring" of the 80:81 syntonic
comma and the other 25:24 chromatic unison (as in the very beautiful
Erlich _Forms of Tonality_ which I'm looking at right now) means that
any pitches other than the just major "kernal" C-D-E-F-G-A-B are
fundamentally "out of tune" with the "kernal" unless some kind of
tempering goes on...

Correct??

Tx!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

>
> Although, since he mentions G# and Ab it seems he's fixating on
> *meantone* problems... Therefore, wouldn't it be better if he were
> just to say that in the typical meantone system (a kind of just
after
> all)

?

> all the more remote chords in "black note keys" are out of tune

unless you use split keys, etc.

> so one couldn't modulate to them from "white note" chords
> effectively??

or do much of anything else with them, yes.

> This situation pertains as well to the entirely just scales, too,
> yes?, since the lack of "unison vectoring" of the 80:81 syntonic
> comma and the other 25:24 chromatic unison

lack?

> (as in the very beautiful
> Erlich _Forms of Tonality_ which I'm looking at right now)

thanks!

> means that
> any pitches other than the just major "kernal" C-D-E-F-G-A-B are
> fundamentally "out of tune" with the "kernal"

why? is, say, e-flat at 6/5 above c fundamentally out of tune in some
respect?

unless some kind of
> tempering goes on...

i don't think "kernal" is a word . . .

> Correct??

well, the situation is really just as bad even within your "kernal",
since d is out of tune with both f and a.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43824

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> >
> > Although, since he mentions G# and Ab it seems he's fixating on
> > *meantone* problems... Therefore, wouldn't it be better if he
were
> > just to say that in the typical meantone system (a kind of just
> after
> > all)
>
> ?

***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that several
crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....

>
>
> > all the more remote chords in "black note keys" are out of tune
>
> unless you use split keys, etc.
>
> > so one couldn't modulate to them from "white note" chords
> > effectively??
>
> or do much of anything else with them, yes.
>
> > This situation pertains as well to the entirely just scales, too,
> > yes?, since the lack of "unison vectoring" of the 80:81 syntonic
> > comma and the other 25:24 chromatic unison
>
> lack?

***I guess I meant *non*... "lack" would mean some kind
of "intention" I suspect...

>
> > (as in the very beautiful
> > Erlich _Forms of Tonality_ which I'm looking at right now)
>
> thanks!
>
> > means that
> > any pitches other than the just major "kernal" C-D-E-F-G-A-B are
> > fundamentally "out of tune" with the "kernal"
>
> why? is, say, e-flat at 6/5 above c fundamentally out of tune in
some respect?

***On the chart it looks as though it would be wrong unless you
tempered out the 25:24?? Or am I just misunderstanding this...??

> unless some kind of
> > tempering goes on...
>
> i don't think "kernal" is a word . . .

***"Kernel": I misspelled it. Webster says: "a subset of elements
of one set (as a group) that a function (as a homomorphism) maps onto
an identity element of another set... Hmmm.

Also: a whole seed of a cereal...

>
> > Correct??
>
> well, the situation is really just as bad even within
your "kernal", since d is out of tune with both f and a.

***I *think* I get this. You mean D and A need the 80:81 tempering
and D and F need the 25:24 tempering? That's what it looks like on
your illustration, Paul. But, I may have this wrong...

Thanks!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***"Kernel": I misspelled it. Webster says: "a subset of elements
> of one set (as a group) that a function (as a homomorphism) maps onto
> an identity element of another set... Hmmm.
>
> Also: a whole seed of a cereal...

I'd stick with the first definition around here.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43824
>
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> >
> > >
> > > Although, since he mentions G# and Ab it seems he's fixating on
> > > *meantone* problems... Therefore, wouldn't it be better if he
> were
> > > just to say that in the typical meantone system (a kind of just
> > after
> > > all)
> >
> > ?
>
> ***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that several
> crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....

what chords are you thinking of, i wonder?

> >
> >
> > > all the more remote chords in "black note keys" are out of tune
> >
> > unless you use split keys, etc.
> >
> > > so one couldn't modulate to them from "white note" chords
> > > effectively??
> >
> > or do much of anything else with them, yes.
> >
> > > This situation pertains as well to the entirely just scales,
too,
> > > yes?, since the lack of "unison vectoring" of the 80:81
syntonic
> > > comma and the other 25:24 chromatic unison
> >
> > lack?
>
> ***I guess I meant *non*... "lack" would mean some kind
> of "intention" I suspect...

the unison vectors are there, delimiting a 7-tone scale as they do no
matter whether or not any temperament is in effect . . .

> >
> > > (as in the very beautiful
> > > Erlich _Forms of Tonality_ which I'm looking at right now)
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > > means that
> > > any pitches other than the just major "kernal" C-D-E-F-G-A-B
are
> > > fundamentally "out of tune" with the "kernal"
> >
> > why? is, say, e-flat at 6/5 above c fundamentally out of tune in
> some respect?
>
> ***On the chart it looks as though it would be wrong unless you
> tempered out the 25:24??

ouch! that's a rather extreme, unusual form of temperament,
called "dicot" among other things. if you temper out the 25:24, it
means that 6/5 and 5/4 become identical (since the ratio between them
is 25:24) and typically both are represented by a neutral third of
some sort.

> Or am I just misunderstanding this...??

seemingly . . . i'm in new york for a few more days if you'd like to
discuss this over coffee or a meal . . .

> > unless some kind of
> > > tempering goes on...
> >
> > i don't think "kernal" is a word . . .
>
> ***"Kernel": I misspelled it. Webster says: "a subset of elements
> of one set (as a group) that a function (as a homomorphism) maps
onto
> an identity element of another set... Hmmm.

so in other words, the word "kernel" would best be used to refer to
the set of unison vectors, or perhaps the set of unison vectors that
are tempered out -- but certainly not to the major scale!

> > well, the situation is really just as bad even within
> your "kernal", since d is out of tune with both f and a.
>
> ***I *think* I get this. You mean D and A need the 80:81 tempering
> and D and F need the 25:24 tempering? That's what it looks like on
> your illustration, Paul. But, I may have this wrong...

yep, i think you do. bring the paper with you when we meet . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43844

> seemingly . . . i'm in new york for a few more days if you'd like
to discuss this over coffee or a meal . . .
>

***Hi Paul,

Sure, that would be fun. Sun and Mon eves are still free at this
point... 212-564-4899.

Are you getting your Yahoo e-mail? Probably you are. Sorry to
bother the list with this.

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43844

> >
> > ***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that several
> > crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....
>
> what chords are you thinking of, i wonder?
>

Pretty much the same ones that Kyle Gann considers "good" on his
meantone webpage:

http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html#hist2

Major: C D Eb E F G A Bb
Minor: A B C C# D E F# G

>> > >
> > > > This situation pertains as well to the entirely just scales,
> too,
> > > > yes?, since the lack of "unison vectoring" of the 80:81
> syntonic
> > > > comma and the other 25:24 chromatic unison
> > >
> > > lack?
> >
> > ***I guess I meant *non*... "lack" would mean some kind
> > of "intention" I suspect...
>
> the unison vectors are there, delimiting a 7-tone scale as they do
no matter whether or not any temperament is in effect . . .
>

***OK, Paul, so this part I'll have to discuss with you more when I
see you...

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43844
>
> > >
> > > ***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that
several
> > > crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....
> >
> > what chords are you thinking of, i wonder?
> >
>
> Pretty much the same ones that Kyle Gann considers "good" on his
> meantone webpage:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html#hist2
>
> Major: C D Eb E F G A Bb
> Minor: A B C C# D E F# G

they're good, yes, but certainly not just -- especially if you're
not willing to consider 72-equal capable of producing just chords.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43874

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43844
> >
> > > >
> > > > ***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that
> several
> > > > crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....
> > >
> > > what chords are you thinking of, i wonder?
> > >
> >
> > Pretty much the same ones that Kyle Gann considers "good" on his
> > meantone webpage:
> >
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html#hist2
> >
> > Major: C D Eb E F G A Bb
> > Minor: A B C C# D E F# G
>
> they're good, yes, but certainly not just -- especially if you're
> not willing to consider 72-equal capable of producing just chords.

***Oh, well, obviously I need to understand this better, then. Well,
C Major is certainly just, yes?, since the e is a whole syntonic
comma lower than Pythagorean in 1/4 comma meantone, yes? But are
there any other chords in 1/4 comma meantone that are entirely just
in the above??

TX!

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43874
>
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> > >
> > > /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43844
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that
> > several
> > > > > crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....
> > > >
> > > > what chords are you thinking of, i wonder?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Pretty much the same ones that Kyle Gann considers "good" on
his
> > > meantone webpage:
> > >
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html#hist2
> > >
> > > Major: C D Eb E F G A Bb
> > > Minor: A B C C# D E F# G
> >
> > they're good, yes, but certainly not just -- especially if
you're
> > not willing to consider 72-equal capable of producing just
chords.
>
>
> ***Oh, well, obviously I need to understand this better, then.
Well,
> C Major is certainly just, yes?, since the e is a whole syntonic
> comma lower than Pythagorean in 1/4 comma meantone, yes? But are
> there any other chords in 1/4 comma meantone that are entirely
just
> in the above??
>
> TX!
>
> JP

all of these chords are the same (same-sized intervals), and none
are just. the major thirds are just, while the minor thirds and
perfect fifths are 1/4 comma narrow. meantone is a *regular* tuning
system.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus

/tuning/topicId_43797.html#43897

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43874
> >
> > <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> > > >
> > > > /tuning/topicId_43797.html#43844
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ***I guess that isn't very well put. I simply meant that
> > > several
> > > > > > crucial chords are just in 1/4 comma meantone, etc....
> > > > >
> > > > > what chords are you thinking of, i wonder?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Pretty much the same ones that Kyle Gann considers "good" on
> his
> > > > meantone webpage:
> > > >
> > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~kgann/histune.html#hist2
> > > >
> > > > Major: C D Eb E F G A Bb
> > > > Minor: A B C C# D E F# G
> > >
> > > they're good, yes, but certainly not just -- especially if
> you're
> > > not willing to consider 72-equal capable of producing just
> chords.
> >
> >
> > ***Oh, well, obviously I need to understand this better, then.
> Well,
> > C Major is certainly just, yes?, since the e is a whole syntonic
> > comma lower than Pythagorean in 1/4 comma meantone, yes? But are
> > there any other chords in 1/4 comma meantone that are entirely
> just
> > in the above??
> >
> > TX!
> >
> > JP
>
> all of these chords are the same (same-sized intervals), and none
> are just. the major thirds are just, while the minor thirds and
> perfect fifths are 1/4 comma narrow. meantone is a *regular* tuning
> system.

***That's funny, Paul, that I momentarily "forgot" about the fifths.
Thanks for clearing this up...

JP