hi, i'm back & a few ???

Hello "peeps" (I peep, you peep, we all peep inta lil light'd boxes...)
I, Jonathan Chang, am back on this list - having dealt with my personal
problems and health (physical, chemical _and_ mental).
I just can't get away from this abiding interest of mine (one of several,
mind you... _esp'ly since_ I have 2 years Clean & Sober... and the right
psych meds do frikkin miracles... anyway, enuff said, never enuff ever
done...)

Is John Chalmers still posting 0_o? David Canright? Sri Swifty? Margo
Schulter? Daniel Wolf (I still feel quite horrid over the TX )... I am bound
to have forgotten oodles of others who were quite instrumental {pardon the
pun :P~ } in being my "on-line music teacher/friends... it's been 3 years or
so...

Anyways... onto a few curious ON SUBJECT "feedback" questions [sorta like
a informal, unscientific poll]:

- Do extended 7-prime JI pitches really have a
glow-in-the-dark/blacklight blusesy zap to them? Any possible explanation(s)?
[Personally, I having a mild case of synaethesia, do kinda understand... but
to me its more of a vague, opalescent blue-green and its not so much a "zap"
as a hum hovering somewhere in my head just above the ubiquitous 60 cycle
one.]

- Is extended 11-prime JI really that ambigous, nebulous? Again, any
possible explanations?

- Is 13 - 13-prime JI and/or 13tET - really _that_ harsh, somber?

-What is the readership's emotive reaction to 13th root of 3
(Bohlen-Pierce non-octave nonJI nonET) scale pitches?

That's all for now...

---
Hanuman Zhang

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12
elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master Masayuki Koga

"We cannot doubt that animals both love and practice music. That is evident.
But it seems their musical system differs from ours. It is another
school...We are not familiar with their didactic works. Perhaps they don't
have any." - Erik Satie

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"
LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

>I, Jonathan Chang, am back on this list - having dealt with my personal
>problems and health (physical, chemical _and_ mental).

Heya! Strangely, I don't remember you. When did you last post?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I, Jonathan Chang, am back on this list - having dealt with my
personal
> >problems and health (physical, chemical _and_ mental).
>
> Heya! Strangely, I don't remember you. When did you last post?
>
> -Carl

welcome back, jonathan! i assume you're the same person who wrote
this:

/tuning/topicId_10795.html#10795

if so, welcome back once again!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43594

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> > >I, Jonathan Chang, am back on this list - having dealt with my
> personal
> > >problems and health (physical, chemical _and_ mental).
> >
> > Heya! Strangely, I don't remember you. When did you last post?
> >
> > -Carl
>
> welcome back, jonathan! i assume you're the same person who wrote
> this:
>
> /tuning/topicId_10795.html#10795
>
> if so, welcome back once again!

***Great sleuth work, Paul... I'm glad he was agreeing with what I
wrote back in 2000!

Joseph

In a message dated 2003:04:30 04:14:32 PM, Carl Lumma (ekin@lumma.org) quotes
me and writes:

>>I, Jonathan Chang, am back on this list - having dealt with my personal
>>problems and health (physical, chemical _and_ mental).
>
>Heya! Strangely, I don't remember you. When did you last post?
>
>-Carl

Hiya Carl,
Oh about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago, I am not to sure (I was in a bit of a fog
;) ... under the email name zhang2323 and the _nom d' absurd_ of zHANg or
something like that.
Now do you recall ::sheepish, questioning grin:: 0_o?
Actually it just might be better if ya didn't... _tabula rasa_, eh?

ON-TOPIC addenum:
Why is 17/12 (603 cents) more strikingly "blue" than - for example - most
7-prime JI pitches? Any theories? [this seems to be more than a merely
subjective description as people from highly different cultures seem to say
the same thing - I have heard one person call it "one of the 'Blue Tritones'
"]

semi-ON-TOPIC:
My housemate's cat, Luc (short for Lucifer), seems to prefer my music lis
tening and playing of music. .. or, at least, he is fascinated with the
sounds. Oddly he likes microtonal music... he got pissed off at me when I
turned off a tape [BTW that I got from Brian McLaren 3 years ago or so] and
likewise got pissed off when I stopped strumming low drones and rhythms on a
dysfunctional snare drum wrapped in big, thick rubberbands.
My musician housemate tends to listen to a wide range of pop(ular) music
- mostly rock and soul - but includes lots of rap, dancehall raggae, etc. as
well as the obligatory dips into classical and jazz that he feels he needs as
"education."
I - on the other hand - tend to prefer music that has no insipid,
repetitive vocals. He once asked me why I listen to "foreign and strange
music and noise more than, you-know, regular American music?"
With my trademark trickster-grin ';' I just said that I can't stand
_excremental_ culture, that I prefer _experiential_ culture. Ironically he
heard "experimental"...

::scampers off to play in his Musical Mad Scientist lab::

---
Hanuman Zhang (aka Jonathan Chang)

"In the beginning was noise - raw sound, the seed sound, the One, _Nada
Brahma_, the Big Bang. And noise begat rhythm. And rhythm begat everything
else. And thus the Dance began. Rhythm and noise. There is terror in noise,
and in that terror there is also power." - adapted from writings by Mickey
Hart

In a message dated 2003:04:30 08:44:44 PM, wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

>welcome back, jonathan! i assume you're the same person who wrote
>this:
>
>/tuning/topicId_10795.html#10795
>
>if so, welcome back once again!

Yepyep. Thanx :)

Soon I hope to post something on a hybrid scale I am exploring * and plan
to use on/in a cello-range tube-zither (which I call a "TamburDrone").

* I possibly have a few dozen technical questions more immediately than
the promised scale "ruff-draft"... gotta bounce these ideas or misconceptions
around on this list, you know...

---
Hanuman Zhang

"In the beginning was noise - raw sound, the seed sound, the One, _Nada
Brahma_, the Big Bang. And noise begat rhythm. And rhythm begat everything
else. And thus the Dance began. Rhythm and noise. There is terror in noise,
and in that terror there is also power." - adapted from writings by Mickey
Hart

"I have the feeling that the English word 'noise' has more negative
connotations than our German word 'Gerausch'. We would describe the sound of
wind blowing as Gerausch, to imply that it's a beautiful and natural sound.
It's so stupid when people say that instead of making beautiful sounds, I
make noise...I like these sounds and this has nothing to do with
'anti-beauty'" - Helmut Lachenmann

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12
elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master Masayuki Koga

"We cannot doubt that animals both love and practice music. That is evident.
But it seems their musical system differs from ours. It is another
school...We are not familiar with their didactic works. Perhaps they don't
have any." - Erik Satie

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"
LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

---
Hanuman Zhang

...improvisation is about change, about flux rather than stasis. ... you have
to be aware of the fact that improvisation is about a constant change. -
Steve Beresford

Mankind's first musical performance couldn't have been anything other
than a free improvisation. - Derek Bailey

What strange risk of hearing can bring sound to music - a hearing whose
obligation awakens a sensibility so new that it is forever a unique,
new-born, anti-death surprise, created now and now and now. .. a hearing
whose moment in time is always daybreak. - Lucia Dlugoszewski

improvvisazione liquida, sospesa temporalmente e profondamente "aliena"

In a message dated 2003:04:30 09:31:59 PM, jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

>***Great sleuth work, Paul... I'm glad he was agreeing with what I
>wrote back in 2000!

And I still agree. More so now than ever.

Okay peeps, I have not heard a peep responding to my informal,
unscientific survey questions so far...

For your convenience, here are the questions again:

- Do extended 7-prime JI pitches really have a
glow-in-the-dark/blacklight blusesy zap to them? Any possible explanation(s)?
[Personally, I having a mild case of synaethesia, do kinda understand... but
to me its more of a vague, opalescent blue-green and its not so much a "zap"
as a hum hovering somewhere in my head just above the ubiquitous 60 cycle
one.]

- Is extended 11-prime JI really that ambigous, nebulous? Again, any
possible explanations?

- Is 13 - 13-prime JI and/or 13tET - really _that_ harsh, somber?

-What is the readership's emotive reaction to 13th root of 3
(Bohlen-Pierce non-octave nonJI nonET) scale pitches?

---
Hanuman Zhang

"I have the feeling that the English word 'noise' has more negative
connotations than our German word 'Gerausch'. We would describe the sound of
wind blowing as Gerausch, to imply that it's a beautiful and natural sound.
It's so stupid when people say that instead of making beautiful sounds, I
make noise...I like these sounds and this has nothing to do with
'anti-beauty'" - Helmut Lachenmann

>>Heya! Strangely, I don't remember you. When did you last post?
>>
>>-Carl
>
> Hiya Carl,
> Oh about 2 1/2 to 3 years ago, I am not to sure (I was in a bit of a
>fog ;) ... under the email name zhang2323 and the _nom d' absurd_ of
>zHANg or something like that.

Oh, zHANg! Hi!

> Why is 17/12 (603 cents) more strikingly "blue" than - for example -
>most 7-prime JI pitches?

More blue than 7:5 or 10:7?

Well, it's quite close to the equal-tempered tritone. Maybe it's
familiarity?

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:

> Okay peeps, I have not heard a peep responding to my informal,
> unscientific survey questions so far...

I think part of the problem is that it isn't clear what the questions
mean. Is "extended 11-prime JI" everything of the form
2^a 3^b 5^c 7^d 11^e? If so, it is dense in the positive reals, and
nothing can be said about how it sounds. If not, what does it mean?
It's doubly hard to tell if something which is ambiguous is in another
sense something which is ambiguous, in some nebulous and ambiguous sense.

on 1/5/03 11:09 am, czhang23@aol.com at czhang23@aol.com wrote:

> ON-TOPIC addenum:
> Why is 17/12 (603 cents) more strikingly "blue" than - for example - most
> 7-prime JI pitches? Any theories? [this seems to be more than a merely
> subjective description as people from highly different cultures seem to say
> the same thing - I have heard one person call it "one of the 'Blue Tritones'
> "]

It depends to my ears on what there is around the blue note.

I use 17/12 in Lou Harrison's pelog- 1/1, 13/12, 7/6, 17/12, 3/2, 19/12,
7/4, 2/1. (Partials 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, 19, 21). Harrison states that this
tuning is the tuning of the 18th century gamelan "Kyai Gunter Sari". Very
blue indeed.

I have in progress a gamelan blues based on a Delta lick. This is the only
tuning that helps me say what want. (before you all set fire to my tail NO I
haven't tried all ten zillion possibilities.)

Regards
a.m.

>I think part of the problem is that it isn't clear what the
>questions mean.

Jonathan may be referring to an old thread. The question was
not formalized then, either, but went something like, 'do dyads
of the form n/d where n or d is a certain small odd number y
share a certain subjective quality?'. A variation claims this
quality exists for dyads where n is y. Does the collection
7:6, 7:5, 7:4, 5:4, 5:3 naturally split itself between its 3rd
and 4th members? I suggested the following adjectives for y...

3- "square"
5- "sweet"
7- "florescent"
11- "tropical"

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >I think part of the problem is that it isn't clear what the
> >questions mean.
>
> Jonathan may be referring to an old thread. The question was
> not formalized then, either, but went something like, 'do dyads
> of the form n/d where n or d is a certain small odd number y
> share a certain subjective quality?'. A variation claims this
> quality exists for dyads where n is y. Does the collection
> 7:6, 7:5, 7:4, 5:4, 5:3 naturally split itself between its 3rd
> and 4th members? I suggested the following adjectives for y...
>
> 3- "square"
> 5- "sweet"
> 7- "florescent"
> 11- "tropical"
>
> -Carl

note that you said *odd* number, which makes the whole question a lot
more reasonable than if you had (like zhang) said *prime* number, as
gene has pointed out.

>note that you said *odd* number, which makes the whole question a lot
>more reasonable than if you had (like zhang) said *prime* number, as
>gene has pointed out.

I did note that, but I'm not sure why that makes it more reasonable.
The only difference below a reasonable threshold is y = 9.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Carl Lumma <ekin@l...> wrote:
> >note that you said *odd* number, which makes the whole question a
lot
> >more reasonable than if you had (like zhang) said *prime* number,
as
> >gene has pointed out.
>
> I did note that, but I'm not sure why that makes it more reasonable.

sorry, i should have clarified that zhang said prime limit, so one
would have to say "prime factor" instead of merely "prime number" as
i incorrectly did above. . . .

why is *that* unreasonable? because within any tiny slice of interval
space, say 400-401 cents, there are an infinite number of ratios of
all prime limits.

> The only difference below a reasonable threshold is y = 9.

the way i said it wrong above, yes, but if you use prime *limit*,
then of course there are plenty of other differences!

In a message dated 2003:05:01 10:55:52 AM, Carl Lumma (ekin@lumma.org) writes:

>Oh, zHANg! Hi!

::waves:: :)
Do ya think "Hanuman Zhang" is a better transformation of "Jonathan
Chang"?
It even seems musical ;)

>> Why is 17/12 (603 cents) more strikingly "blue" than - for example
>->most 7-prime JI pitches?
>
>More blue than 7:5 or 10:7?
>
>Well, it's quite close to the equal-tempered tritone. Maybe it's
>familiarity?

Either that or more likely musical context (like if it follows
immediately after some "simpler" otonal 5-limit JI ratio, eh? That might
explain this "blue-ness"... maybe it's more the interval than the pitch...)

---
Hanuman Zhang

"In the beginning was noise - raw sound, the seed sound, the One, _Nada
Brahma_, the Big Bang. And noise begat rhythm. And rhythm begat everything
else. And thus the Dance began. Rhythm and noise. There is terror in noise,
and in that terror there is also power." - adapted from writings by Mickey
Hart

"I have the feeling that the English word 'noise' has more negative
connotations than our German word 'Gerausch'. We would describe the sound of
wind blowing as Gerausch, to imply that it's a beautiful and natural sound.
It's so stupid when people say that instead of making beautiful sounds, I
make noise...I like these sounds and this has nothing to do with
'anti-beauty'" - Helmut Lachenmann

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12
elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master Masayuki Koga

"We cannot doubt that animals both love and practice music. That is evident.
But it seems their musical system differs from ours. It is another
school...We are not familiar with their didactic works. Perhaps they don't
have any." - Erik Satie

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"
LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

---
Hanuman Zhang

...improvisation is about change, about flux rather than stasis. ... you have
to be aware of the fact that improvisation is about a constant change. -
Steve Beresford

Mankind's first musical performance couldn't have been anything other
than a free improvisation. - Derek Bailey

What strange risk of hearing can bring sound to music - a hearing whose
obligation awakens a sensibility so new that it is forever a unique,
new-born, anti-death surprise, created now and now and now. .. a hearing
whose moment in time is always daybreak. - Lucia Dlugoszewski

improvvisazione liquida, sospesa temporalmente e profondamente "aliena"

In a message dated 2003:05:01 11:09:22 AM, gwsmith@svpal.org writes:

>I think part of the problem is that it isn't clear what the questions
>mean.

Sorry for the vagueness...

> Is "extended 11-prime JI" everything of the form 2^a 3^b 5^c 7^d 11^e?

> If not, what does it mean?

Maybe I should have made this question a 2-part question covering both
11-limit and extended 11-prime-only.

> If so, it is dense in the positive reals, and nothing can be said about how
it sounds.

True to a point.

>It's doubly hard to tell if something which is ambiguous is in another
>sense something which is ambiguous, in some nebulous and ambiguous sense.

Semantics, schmen-antics... ;) but true, all pretty much subjective
and/or an effect of socio-culturalization/cultural backgrounding.
I did say this was an informal unscientific survey afterall ;) I am just
bloody curious what my colleagues have to say (see, I am taking an interest
in _you_ personally -albeit collectively - via this highly impersonal
medium... ;)

---
Hanuman Zhang (aka "Z")
WOG (Wiley Oriental Gentleman ;)
Avatar of Sun WuKong, a.k.a _Ma-Lau_ ("Monkey")
a.k.a. "TricksterGod of the Glorious Anti-Imperialist Chinese Boxers";
¡¡¡ TricksterShapeShifterIncarnate !!!

<= thee prIs ov X.iztenz iz aetern'l warfaer 'N' kreativ playf'llnizz... =>

=> om hung hanumatay rudratmakai hung phat <=
mantra to Hanuman the Hindu Monkey TricksterGod

"Life is all a great joke, but only the brave ever get the point."
- Kenneth Rexroth

googolgigglabyte
goegolgiechelbijt - of - met een vette megagrijns
GoogolGekicherByte
googolrisibyte ===> el byte de la risita de googol
googolrisadinhabyte ===> o byte de risadinha de googol
googolspassoctet
guugoIllolbijt
gugolhihibajt
gugolngisibayt
okukolkikikol
egúgelegigalibaith
kiletstroknolyadgigabaiti
cimacimakekehapi
baitakhakhweifayatrauni
ufi'auayinisuguguluarkhar
pokatra oemadroabhethetre
inarevuta yhiyhayhake nawyo
va'i utne tuktukt'ishushukuko`g tuk go`go`o`gwgaga

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>
> Either that or more likely musical context (like if it follows
> immediately after some "simpler" otonal 5-limit JI ratio, eh? That
might
> explain this "blue-ness"... maybe it's more the interval than the
pitch...)

isolated pitches have absolutely no different effects on me
regardless of their ratios. why would they? the ratio is the pitch's
frequency with respect to that of a system 1/1, and if the latter is
not heard, what relevance could the ratio possibly have?

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2003:05:01 11:09:22 AM, gwsmith@s... writes:
>
> >I think part of the problem is that it isn't clear what the
questions
> >mean.
>
> Sorry for the vagueness...
>
> > Is "extended 11-prime JI" everything of the form 2^a 3^b 5^c 7^d
11^e?
>
> > If not, what does it mean?
>
> Maybe I should have made this question a 2-part question
covering both
> 11-limit and extended 11-prime-only.

by the former, you mean 11-odd-limit, i.e. 11-limit in partch's sense?

> I did say this was an informal unscientific survey afterall ;)
I am just
> bloody curious what my colleagues have to say (see, I am taking an
interest
> in _you_ personally -albeit collectively - via this highly
impersonal
> medium... ;)

you're going to have to supply some kind of context -- as i said,
isolated pitches don't have any specific effect based on the ratios
assigned to them, and i don't see how they could . . .

In a message dated 2003:05:01 11:16:21 AM, alison.monteith3@which.net writes:

>> ON-TOPIC addenum:
>> Why is 17/12 (603 cents) more strikingly "blue" than - for example -
>most 7-prime JI pitches? Any theories? [this seems to be more than a merely
>> subjective description as people from highly different cultures seem
>to say the same thing - I have heard one person call it "one of the 'Blue
Tritones'"]
>
>It depends to my ears on what there is around the blue note.

I am beginning to theorize -& maybe realize - the same conclusion (see my
previous posting).

>I use 17/12 in Lou Harrison's pelog- 1/1, 13/12, 7/6, 17/12, 3/2, 19/12,
>7/4, 2/1. (Partials 12, 13, 14, 17, 18, 19, 21). Harrison states that this
>tuning is the tuning of the 18th century gamelan "Kyai Gunter Sari". Very
>blue indeed.

:) In fact that's how I first heard about 17/12. Then there was a few
other times.

>I have in progress a gamelan blues based on a Delta lick. This is the only
>tuning that helps me say what want. (before you all set fire to my tail
>NO I haven't tried all ten zillion possibilities.)

OT: There is an Amazonian tribe that has no word for "pray" or
"worship"... so when Christian missionaries translated stuff into the native
language they discovered the nearest linguistic equivalency was "wag one's
tail at god(s)."
Also these missionaries had trouble with one of the 7 Sins... to these
tribal people sloths are god-avatar-like creatures.

---
Hanuman Zhang, Sloth-Style Gungfu Typist ;) & lingua-mang(a)leer
"the sloth is a chinese poet upsidedown" --- Jack Kerouac {1922-69}

"The sum of human wisdom is not contained in any one language,
and no single language is capable of expressing all forms and degrees of
human comprehension." - Ezra Pound

"One thing foreigners, computers, and poets have in common
is that they make unexpected linguistic associations." --- Jasia Reichardt

"There is no reason for the poet to be limited to words, and in fact the
poet is most poetic when inventing languages. Hence the concept of the poet
as 'language designer'." --- O. B. Hardison, Jr.

"La poésie date d' aujour d'hui." (Poetry dates from today)
"La poésie est en jeu." (Poetry is in play)
--- Blaise Cendrars

In a message dated 2003:05:01 11:30:40 AM, ekin@lumma.org writes:

>>I think part of the problem is that it isn't clear what the
>>questions mean.
>
>Jonathan may be referring to an old thread.

Yepyep, a very old one ... one of Brian McLaren's messages relayed thru
John Chalmers IIRC. It caused no end of debate... for at least 6-9 weeks I
think... (hehe, am I stirring up trouble? Not intentionally... I am just a
lil curious like Curious George ;)

>The question was
>not formalized then, either, but went something like, 'do dyads
>of the form n/d where n or d is a certain small odd number y
>share a certain subjective quality?'. A variation claims this
>quality exists for dyads where n is y. Does the collection
>7:6, 7:5, 7:4, 5:4, 5:3 naturally split itself between its 3rd
>and 4th members?

Oh boy... and there also the idea(s) linking this to AFAIK "harmonic
entropy/complexity levels." And then there is also Sethares idea of linking
tuning to timbre...

> I suggested the following adjectives for y...
>
>3- "square"
>5- "sweet"
>7- "florescent"
>11- "tropical"

Hmm, 11 "tropical"? Is it because you might associate 11 ratios with a
lot of African and Papuan music that have neutral pitches (pitches 'twixt
so-call major and minor)? I associate a lot of 11 ratios with Arabic, esp'ly
Turkish and Persian, scales and modes as well.

I associate 13 with Tibetan/Mongolian/Tuvan music scales (and a few
oddball Balinese Pelog scales and some enharmonic Greek modes).

My 2 Eurocents re: "y":

3= temperate; basic; yep, "square" (and semi-cubic) in every sense of the
word, but a shade or two more linear than multi-dimensional; 60
cycle hum
5= swings from temperate to warm & to cool; more multi-dimensionality
than linearity; various multiples of the 60 cycle hum
7= cold like a good blade; glow-in-the-dark/blacklight; nice complex
droning hum
11= hot; disorientating; prickly, growling
13= cool; earth-shaking, mind-blowing; awesome numinous harshness

---
Hanuman Zhang, _Gomi no sensei_ [Master of junk]
& Gatherer of Extremely Enlightening Knowledge (or GEEK, for short ;)
•••

"To live is to scrounge, taking what you can in order to survive. So,
since living is scrounging, the result of our efforts is to amass a pile of
rubbish."
- Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi, China, 4th Century BCE

"The most beautiful order is a heap of sweepings piled up at random."
- Heraclitus, Greece, 5th Century BCE

Ars imitatur Naturam in sua operatione.
[Latin > "Art is the imitation of Nature in her manner of operation."]

"The usefulness of the useless is good news for artists, for art serves no
useful purpose. It has to do with changing minds and spirits." - John Cage

"We do not make art to say what it is, we make art to ask, 'WHAT IS IT?????''
- Robert Wilson

" jinsei to iu mono wa, kichou na geijyutsu to ieru deshou "
[Japanese > "one can probably say that 'life' is a precious artform"]

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GFA/H/L/MC/MU/SS d--- s: a39 C++ U? P L- E-- W N-- o-- K--- w---
O-- M+ V-- PS+++ PE Y+ PGP-- t-- 5++ X+ R- /R* tv+ b++++ DI--
D-- G e++ h* r y++**
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

http://www.geekcode.com/

>sorry, i should have clarified that zhang said prime limit, so one
>would have to say "prime factor" instead of merely "prime number" as
>i incorrectly did above. . . .
>
>why is *that* unreasonable? because within any tiny slice of interval
>space, say 400-401 cents, there are an infinite number of ratios of
>all prime limits.

Oh sure. I'm only interested in my definition of the question.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> note that you said *odd* number, which makes the whole question a lot
> more reasonable than if you had (like zhang) said *prime* number, as
> gene has pointed out.

He also got rid of the "extended".

In a message dated 2003:05:01 02:53:17 PM, wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

>> Maybe I should have made this question a 2-part question
>covering both 11-limit and extended 11-prime-only.
>
>by the former, you mean 11-odd-limit, i.e. 11-limit in partch's sense?

Yes.

>you're going to have to supply some kind of context -- as i said,
>isolated pitches don't have any specific effect based on the ratios
>assigned to them, and i don't see how they could . . .

You want specific contexts? How about ferinstanz both 11-limit and
extended 11-prime-only, and let's say utonal (minor) from both Eb1 and F#1
(some of the very lowest notes generally playable on a double
bass/contrabass...)
1. 11-limit utonalities from Eb1
2. 11-limit utonalities from F# 1
3. extended 11-prime-only Eb1 utonalities
4. extended 11-prime-only F#1 utonalities

Thanx in advance to each and all who reply for their Time&Space in this
near infrasonic Matter ;)

---
Hanuman Zhang

"In the beginning was noise - raw sound, the seed sound, the One, _Nada
Brahma_, the Big Bang. And noise begat rhythm. And rhythm begat everything
else. And thus the Dance began. Rhythm and noise. There is terror in noise,
and in that terror there is also power." - adapted from writings by Mickey
Hart

"I have the feeling that the English word 'noise' has more negative
connotations than our German word 'Gerausch'. We would describe the sound of
wind blowing as Gerausch, to imply that it's a beautiful and natural sound.
It's so stupid when people say that instead of making beautiful sounds, I
make noise...I like these sounds and this has nothing to do with
'anti-beauty'" - Helmut Lachenmann

"The wonderousness of the human mind is too great to be transferred into
music only by 7 or 12
elements of tone steps in one octave." - shakuhachi master Masayuki Koga

"We cannot doubt that animals both love and practice music. That is evident.
But it seems their musical system differs from ours. It is another
school...We are not familiar with their didactic works. Perhaps they don't
have any." - Erik Satie

NADA BRAHMA - Sanskrit, "sound [is the] Godhead"
LILA - Sanskrit, "divine play/sport/whimsy" - "the universe is what happens
when God wants to play" - "joyous exercise of spontaneity involved in the art
of creation"

---
Hanuman Zhang

...improvisation is about change, about flux rather than stasis. ... you have
to be aware of the fact that improvisation is about a constant change. -
Steve Beresford

Mankind's first musical performance couldn't have been anything other
than a free improvisation. - Derek Bailey

What strange risk of hearing can bring sound to music - a hearing whose
obligation awakens a sensibility so new that it is forever a unique,
new-born, anti-death surprise, created now and now and now. .. a hearing
whose moment in time is always daybreak. - Lucia Dlugoszewski

improvvisazione liquida, sospesa temporalmente e profondamente "aliena"

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> > note that you said *odd* number, which makes the whole question a
lot
> > more reasonable than if you had (like zhang) said *prime* number,
as
> > gene has pointed out.
>
> He also got rid of the "extended".

"extended" was partch's way of pointing beyond his odd-limit concept
toward a prime-limit one.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:

> You want specific contexts? How about ferinstanz both 11-limit
and
> extended 11-prime-only, and let's say utonal (minor) from both Eb1
and F#1
> (some of the very lowest notes generally playable on a double
> bass/contrabass...)
> 1. 11-limit utonalities from Eb1
> 2. 11-limit utonalities from F# 1

as chords, i've never been able to summon a sense of "rightness" out
of 11-limit utonalities. 11-limit otonalities, definitely . . .
9-limit utonalities, just barely . . .

> 3. extended 11-prime-only Eb1 utonalities
> 4. extended 11-prime-only F#1 utonalities

i don't understand what an "extended 11-prime-only utonality" is. can
you explain?

anyway, the 11-limit otonality is a great sound, one i use all the
time both in acoustic just intonation and electric 22-tone equal
temperament. it's kind of lost a bit of flavor for me, but can
occasionally inspire me anew, primarily through the melodic ideas it
(or some outside spirit) evokes . . . i don't find it tropical; the
11th, though, is so totally convincing and so totally outside the
12-equal framework that i'm at a loss for adjectives to capture the
magnificence of its feeling . . . it's screaming out to the 12-equal
hegemony, "just TRY and deny this"!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, czhang23@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43598

>
> -What is the readership's emotive reaction to 13th root of 3
> (Bohlen-Pierce non-octave nonJI nonET) scale pitches?
>

***Well, this one I can answer. I wrote an electronic piece called
_Beepy_ that was on the erstwhile _Tuning Punks_ site. It's down
now, but I'll put it up on the web elsewhere.

I found the Bohlen-Pierce scale to be fascinating to work with:
maybe a bit dark and strange, but not unduly so. It seems better
suited for electronic studies than anything; getting "real live"
players to perform it would be a task, I believe.

best,

J. Pehrson

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>

> I found the Bohlen-Pierce scale to be fascinating to work with:
> maybe a bit dark and strange, but not unduly so. It seems better
> suited for electronic studies than anything; getting "real live"
> players to perform it would be a task, I believe.

One could always fret a guitar for it.

* David Beardsley
* microtonal guitar
* http://biink.com/db

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, David Beardsley <db@b...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
>
> > I found the Bohlen-Pierce scale to be fascinating to work with:
> > maybe a bit dark and strange, but not unduly so. It seems better
> > suited for electronic studies than anything; getting "real live"
> > players to perform it would be a task, I believe.
>
> One could always fret a guitar for it.

http://members.aol.com/bpsite/tuning.html#anchor39641

scroll down to the bottom.

seems like almost a waste to have so few frets -- i'd go with

http://members.aol.com/bpsite/scales.html#anchor417408

myself -- if nothing else you have the BP scale at three different
pitch levels.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43612

<> sorry, i should have clarified that zhang said prime limit, so one
> would have to say "prime factor" instead of merely "prime number"
as i incorrectly did above. . . .
>
> why is *that* unreasonable? because within any tiny slice of
interval space, say 400-401 cents, there are an infinite number of
ratios of all prime limits.
>

***Sorry, Paul. I've fallen behind. Could you please illustrate
this briefly??

tx!

Joseph

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43628

>
> anyway, the 11-limit otonality is a great sound, one i use all the
> time both in acoustic just intonation and electric 22-tone equal
> temperament. it's kind of lost a bit of flavor for me, but can
> occasionally inspire me anew, primarily through the melodic ideas
it
> (or some outside spirit) evokes . . . i don't find it tropical; the
> 11th, though, is so totally convincing and so totally outside the
> 12-equal framework that i'm at a loss for adjectives to capture the
> magnificence of its feeling . . . it's screaming out to the 12-
equal
> hegemony, "just TRY and deny this"!

***Do you use this sound in your _Stretch_ gigs, Paul?? Congrats on
the upcoming gig, by the way...

Joseph (still assbehind)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_43591.html#43612
>
> <> sorry, i should have clarified that zhang said prime limit, so
one
> > would have to say "prime factor" instead of merely "prime
number"
> as i incorrectly did above. . . .
> >
> > why is *that* unreasonable? because within any tiny slice of
> interval space, say 400-401 cents, there are an infinite number of
> ratios of all prime limits.
> >
>
> ***Sorry, Paul. I've fallen behind. Could you please illustrate
> this briefly??
>
> tx!
>
> Joseph

what kind of illustration were you looking for? i can't post an
infinite number of ratios ;)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_43591.html#43628
>
> >
> > anyway, the 11-limit otonality is a great sound, one i use all
the
> > time both in acoustic just intonation and electric 22-tone equal
> > temperament. it's kind of lost a bit of flavor for me, but can
> > occasionally inspire me anew, primarily through the melodic
ideas
> it
> > (or some outside spirit) evokes . . . i don't find it tropical;
the
> > 11th, though, is so totally convincing and so totally outside
the
> > 12-equal framework that i'm at a loss for adjectives to capture
the
> > magnificence of its feeling . . . it's screaming out to the 12-
> equal
> > hegemony, "just TRY and deny this"!
>
> ***Do you use this sound in your _Stretch_ gigs, Paul??

nope -- not yet at least. in mad duxx, though, i went for this big
time, and in the music i did with ara too. more to come, if all goes
well . . .

> Congrats on
> the upcoming gig, by the way...

thanks, it'll be fun to hang out with john scofield and branford
marsalis. on an unrelated note, i just read that adrian belew used
32-equal for his vocals on a song on the king crimson album
_construKction of light_, i'll have to dig up that cd when i get
home and give it another listen. i definitely recall noting
a "middle eastern" vibe in there somewhere . . .

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:

> ***Do you use this sound in your _Stretch_ gigs, Paul??

correction: the answer is actually yes, but it's used quite subtly
and only in the acoustic duo section that often begins our sets.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43870

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_43591.html#43612
> >
> > <> sorry, i should have clarified that zhang said prime limit, so
> one
> > > would have to say "prime factor" instead of merely "prime
> number"
> > as i incorrectly did above. . . .
> > >
> > > why is *that* unreasonable? because within any tiny slice of
> > interval space, say 400-401 cents, there are an infinite number
of
> > ratios of all prime limits.
> > >
> >
> > ***Sorry, Paul. I've fallen behind. Could you please illustrate
> > this briefly??
> >
> > tx!
> >
> > Joseph
>
> what kind of illustration were you looking for? i can't post an
> infinite number of ratios ;)

***I just wanted to understand if, within any interval space, there
were always an infinite number of prime limit ratios. I guess the
answer is yes... The ratios would get pretty large, though, and they
wouldn't be "lower limit" primes, yes??

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***I just wanted to understand if, within any interval space, there
> were always an infinite number of prime limit ratios.

If p and q are two distinct prime numbers, then there are an infinite
supply of rational numbers of the form p^a q^b between any two
positive real numbers. Hence while one prime (for instance, 2, giving
only octaves) gives a discrete set, anything more than one prime gives
density.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:

> ***I just wanted to understand if, within any interval space,
there
> were always an infinite number of prime limit ratios.

yes, no matter what the prime limit actually is.

> I guess the
> answer is yes... The ratios would get pretty large, though,

yes, most have lots of digits.

> and they
> wouldn't be "lower limit" primes, yes??

they could all be 3-prime-limit, and there would still be an
infinite number within any interval space.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
> wrote:
>
> > ***I just wanted to understand if, within any interval space,
> there
> > were always an infinite number of prime limit ratios.
>
> yes, no matter what the prime limit actually is.

Above 2 :)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43888

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
>
> > ***I just wanted to understand if, within any interval space,
there were always an infinite number of prime limit ratios.
>
> If p and q are two distinct prime numbers, then there are an
infinite supply of rational numbers of the form p^a q^b between any
two positive real numbers. Hence while one prime (for instance, 2,
giving only octaves) gives a discrete set, anything more than one
prime gives density.

***If one has no knowledge of letters, one is
presumed "illiterate..." I presume, if someone has no knowledge of
numbers, one is considered "illnumberate?" Or maybe
just "illdumberate..."

So, I don't know what a "real" number really is. I guess it's
opposed to a "fake", which I presume has a contentious provenance...

Likewise, I guess a "rational" number is a ratio...

Whoboy, this is embarassing. Better get these terms down before
trying to understand this...

Thanks!

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***If one has no knowledge of letters, one is
> presumed "illiterate..." I presume, if someone has no knowledge of
> numbers, one is considered "illnumberate?" Or maybe
> just "illdumberate..."

"Innumerate" is the actual word you will find in the dictionary. :)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_43591.html#43913

> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...>
wrote:
>
> > ***If one has no knowledge of letters, one is
> > presumed "illiterate..." I presume, if someone has no knowledge
of
> > numbers, one is considered "illnumberate?" Or maybe
> > just "illdumberate..."
>
> "Innumerate" is the actual word you will find in the dictionary. :)

***Hmmm. Thanks, Gene. I see it. Fits like a glove. Something to
work on, obviously! :)

JP