Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Question of name

In tuning list 11th of april 2003 Kraig Grady wrote :

> THE RAST / MAYYATI MATRIX
> with new additions
> http://www.anaphoria.com/RAST.PDF

Hello Kraig, and all,
This document shows nice charts about 7, 10, 17 & 24 tones 11-limit scales.
But just a remark about the names given here :
A "chain of neutral thirds" is the exact definition of the Mohajira series,
which I use since my first photosonic disks,
while Rast and Bayati (-?) are different.

Here is an excerpt of my CD Lumiï¿½res audibles's booklet , about a piece called "Sumer"
I composed during Gulf War 1 :

"Born from my first encounters with overtones 11 and 13, and from the discovery of a cycle of
neutral thirds linking them, and even extending them (13-1-39-3-59-9-11-27-33-81-99-121-37-...), a
single scale constitutes the tonal base of ï¿½Sumerï¿½, which I called ï¿½Mohajiraï¿½ ( = ï¿½migratoryï¿½) - in
credit to its travelling spirit, and its transposition facilities. It is simply composed of seven
consecutive terms in this cycle, that offers alone multiple variations, with specific modal
resources.
Although its principal tetrachord (typ. 66-72-81-88) presents strong similitudes with certain
tetrachords (3) mentionned by Ibn-Sï¿½nï¿½ in the eleventh century (4), this scale does not figure
anymore in the contemporary persian, nor arabian music repertoire, and the persian mode ï¿½Segï¿½hï¿½
remains the only resembling one, except for a generally more minor seventh degree, the one of
Mohajira (Fa? here) being closer to the neutral sevenths ï¿½Awj (or anciently Irï¿½k) of arabic music.
On the left, a resolution of Mohajira, the first one from the cycle previously mentionned, that
details its scalar structure ( = whole tones in alternance with ï¿½three-quarters tonesï¿½ of the 12/11
type), and shows the strong differencial coherence animating the many ï¿½Wustï¿½-Zalzalï¿½ ( neutral
thirds) of this scale.
Following ad libitum the coherent cycle thus opened, it is possible to loop back in 24, or 31
neutral thirds later with the beginning tone, bringing forward octave divisions of 24 ï¿½quarter
tonesï¿½ or 31 ï¿½fifths of tonesï¿½ (but non-tempered), which are not foreign to the egyptian, or
persian systems."
(3) : Divisions of the tetrachord, John H. Chalmers, 1992
(4) : La Musique Arabe, Rodolphe d'Erlanger, 1932

The difference is the following :
While 7 consecutive terms (orders 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) of a neutral thirds chain generate a 7-tones
Mohajira,
The Rast structure is only a defective scale of the same series, which would be 1 (...) 3 4 5 6
7 (...) 9,
such as (octave-reduced, with tonic in 3) : 1-(39)-3-59-9-11-27-(33)-81 etc., which would be to my

point of view a good basic model for one of the two types of Rast usually developped in the Maqam
context.
Bayati would be another mode of the same, with tonic one tone higher, except that Bayati
is more identified (by the master of qanun Julien Jalaladdin Weiss and others) as a 13-limit scale,
such as
the typical 1/1 13/12 32/27 4/3 3/2 13/8 16/9 or another one of my differential-coherent
models
which is, in its basic form, 3 13 57 1 9 39 85.
According to my own definitions, all those scales (7-Mohajira, Segah, Rast, Bayati and others)
certainly belong to the same "neutral diatonic" or "semi-diatonic" family - does everyone agrees
with that ?
But a chain of neutral thirds refers more directly to the Mohajira series than the Rast or Bayati
scales or even
structures.

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...> wrote:
> In tuning list 11th of april 2003 Kraig Grady wrote :
>
> > THE RAST / MAYYATI MATRIX
> > with new additions
> > http://www.anaphoria.com/RAST.PDF
>
> Hello Kraig, and all,
> This document shows nice charts about 7, 10, 17 & 24 tones 11-limit
scales.
> But just a remark about the names given here :
> A "chain of neutral thirds" is the exact definition of the Mohajira
series,
> which I use since my first photosonic disks,
> while Rast and Bayati (-?) are different.
>
> Here is an excerpt of my CD Lumières audibles's booklet , about a
piece called "Sumer"
> I composed during Gulf War 1 :
>
> "Born from my first encounters with overtones 11 and 13, and from
the discovery of a cycle of
> neutral thirds linking them, and even extending them (13-1-39-3-59-
9-11-27-33-81-99-121-37-...), a
> single scale constitutes the tonal base of "Sumer", which I
called "Mohajira" ( = "migratory") - in
> credit to its travelling spirit,

jacques -- are you the one who came up with the term "mohajira"?
there has been a huge amount of discussion on this list about the
scale, but we thought it was simply a rare arabic mode. please fill
us in!

> The difference is the following :
> While 7 consecutive terms (orders 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) of a neutral
thirds chain generate a 7-tones
> Mohajira,
> The Rast structure is only a defective scale of the same series,
which would be 1 (...) 3 4 5 6
> 7 (...) 9,
> such as (octave-reduced, with tonic in 3) : 1-(39)-3-59-9-11-27-
(33)-81 etc., which would be to my
>
> point of view a good basic model for one of the two types of Rast
usually developped in the Maqam
> context.
> Bayati would be another mode of the same, with tonic one tone
higher, except that Bayati
> is more identified (by the master of qanun Julien Jalaladdin Weiss
and others) as a 13-limit scale,
> such as
> the typical 1/1 13/12 32/27 4/3 3/2 13/8 16/9 or another one
of my differential-coherent
> models
> which is, in its basic form, 3 13 57 1 9 39 85.
> According to my own definitions, all those scales (7-Mohajira,
Segah, Rast, Bayati and others)
> certainly belong to the same "neutral diatonic" or "semi-diatonic"
family - does everyone agrees
> with that ?
> But a chain of neutral thirds refers more directly to the Mohajira
series than the Rast or Bayati
> scales or even
> structures.

the latter have been referred to as "arabic diatonic" around here.
when expressed in terms of 24 or 31 parts as you say, the mohajira
scale only has three octave species with identical tetrachords:

sLs sLs L
sLs L sLs
L sLs sLs

while the "arabic diatonic" has five:

ssL ssL L
ssL L ssL
L ssL ssL = Lss Lss L
Lss L Lss
L Lss Lss

which i think gives it superior melodic coherence despite its
apparently lower "generative coherence" (or derivability from a
fokker periodicity block).

i welcome gene's latest technical thoughts on "arabic" -- i listened
to his latest composition in the tuning and it was intriguing, if
alien.

the above considerations apply also to my 10-tone scales as described
here:

http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~jstarret/22ALL.pdf

while the following pattern is more "coherently generated" (or
derived from a fokker periodicity block, as shown in my paper _the
forms of tonality_)

LssssLssss,

it has no octave species where two identical pentachords are found
either a 4:3 or a 3:2 apart. however, make the following alteration:

LsssssLsss

and *all ten* octave species have this tetrachordal property.

for anyone in the boston area, ara sarkissian and i are making
microtonal music in this and other scales every wednesday night at
9pm at our place (except when i'm on tour with my band). drop me a
line if you'd like to pay us a visit.

-paul

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

Hello Jacques!
i am a bit comfused as to where the term Mohajira series comes from. Is it your own or is it Persian term.
Erv use of these terms comes from a performance of Nabil Assani's at the hollywood bowl museum in 1992 which happen to be a show shared by all three of us. Your own scale tackles a similar problem as allows has its own properties that cycle at coincides at
7 and 24 with Erv's. Page 2 also shows other places this interval forms cycles (look at the denominator). Erv sees it cycling at 41 and 65 and beyond. not to mention the 10 and 17 tone scales which is isolated as possibily important and useful. He also shows
how all these scales can be mapped onto a bosanquet keyboard.

>
> From: jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>
> Subject: Question of name
>
> In tuning list 11th of april 2003 Kraig Grady wrote :
>
> > THE RAST / MAYYATI MATRIX
> > with new additions
> > http://www.anaphoria.com/RAST.PDF
>
> Hello Kraig, and all,
> This document shows nice charts about 7, 10, 17 & 24 tones 11-limit scales.
> But just a remark about the names given here :
> A "chain of neutral thirds" is the exact definition of the Mohajira series,
> which I use since my first photosonic disks,
> while Rast and Bayati (-?) are different.
>
> Here is an excerpt of my CD Lumiï¿½res audibles's booklet , about a piece called "Sumer"
> I composed during Gulf War 1 :
>
> "Born from my first encounters with overtones 11 and 13, and from the discovery of a cycle of
> neutral thirds linking them, and even extending them (13-1-39-3-59-9-11-27-33-81-99-121-37-...), a
> single scale constitutes the tonal base of ï¿½Sumerï¿½, which I called ï¿½Mohajiraï¿½ ( = ï¿½migratoryï¿½) - in
> credit to its travelling spirit, and its transposition facilities. It is simply composed of seven
> consecutive terms in this cycle, that offers alone multiple variations, with specific modal
> resources.
> Although its principal tetrachord (typ. 66-72-81-88) presents strong similitudes with certain
> tetrachords (3) mentionned by Ibn-Sï¿½nï¿½ in the eleventh century (4), this scale does not figure
> anymore in the contemporary persian, nor arabian music repertoire, and the persian mode ï¿½Segï¿½hï¿½
> remains the only resembling one, except for a generally more minor seventh degree, the one of
> Mohajira (Fa? here) being closer to the neutral sevenths ï¿½Awj (or anciently Irï¿½k) of arabic music.
> On the left, a resolution of Mohajira, the first one from the cycle previously mentionned, that
> details its scalar structure ( = whole tones in alternance with ï¿½three-quarters tonesï¿½ of the 12/11
> type), and shows the strong differencial coherence animating the many ï¿½Wustï¿½-Zalzalï¿½ ( neutral
> thirds) of this scale.
> Following ad libitum the coherent cycle thus opened, it is possible to loop back in 24, or 31
> neutral thirds later with the beginning tone, bringing forward octave divisions of 24 ï¿½quarter
> tonesï¿½ or 31 ï¿½fifths of tonesï¿½ (but non-tempered), which are not foreign to the egyptian, or
> persian systems."
> (3) : Divisions of the tetrachord, John H. Chalmers, 1992
> (4) : La Musique Arabe, Rodolphe d'Erlanger, 1932
>
> The difference is the following :
> While 7 consecutive terms (orders 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) of a neutral thirds chain generate a 7-tones
> Mohajira,
> The Rast structure is only a defective scale of the same series, which would be 1 (...) 3 4 5 6
> 7 (...) 9,
> such as (octave-reduced, with tonic in 3) : 1-(39)-3-59-9-11-27-(33)-81 etc., which would be to my
>
> point of view a good basic model for one of the two types of Rast usually developped in the Maqam
> context.
> Bayati would be another mode of the same, with tonic one tone higher, except that Bayati
> is more identified (by the master of qanun Julien Jalaladdin Weiss and others) as a 13-limit scale,
> such as
> the typical 1/1 13/12 32/27 4/3 3/2 13/8 16/9 or another one of my differential-coherent
> models
> which is, in its basic form, 3 13 57 1 9 39 85.
> According to my own definitions, all those scales (7-Mohajira, Segah, Rast, Bayati and others)
> certainly belong to the same "neutral diatonic" or "semi-diatonic" family - does everyone agrees
> with that ?
> But a chain of neutral thirds refers more directly to the Mohajira series than the Rast or Bayati
> scales or even
> structures.
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
>
> Hello Jacques!
> i am a bit comfused as to where the term Mohajira series comes
>from. Is it your own or is it Persian term.
> Erv use of these terms comes from a performance of Nabil
>Assani's at the hollywood bowl museum in 1992 which happen to be a
>show shared by all three of us.
> Your own scale tackles a similar problem as allows has its own
>properties that cycle at coincides at
> 7 and 24 with Erv's. Page 2 also shows other places this interval
>forms cycles (look at the denominator). Erv sees it cycling at 41
>and 65 and beyond. not to mention the 10 and 17 tone scales which is
>isolated as possibily important and useful. He also shows
> how all these scales can be mapped onto a bosanquet keyboard.

more information can be found here:

http://x31eq.com/7plus3.htm

🔗jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>

wallyesterpaulrus wrote :

> jacques -- are you the one who came up with the term "mohajira"?
> there has been a huge amount of discussion on this list about the
> scale, but we thought it was simply a rare arabic mode. please fill
> us in!

That's pleasant ! should I pretend I just collected a "rare arabic mode", then ?
But as I said the name is from me, and it refers to series of neutral thirds, out of which
many "neutral diatonic" scales can be generated.
(I personnally prefer "neutral diatonic" to "arabic diatonic", because all are not exclusively
arabic).
In fact I don't see why "7t-Mohajira" wouldn't be a arabic scale, since its main tetrachord was
mentionned
by Ibn-Sï¿½nï¿½, as John Chalmers kindly informed me when I asked him if he knew about it.
And persian too, since it is so close to Dastgï¿½h Segï¿½h.
and even greek, who knows ? I'm sure many got lost.
actually you can find a 7 tones Mohajira by adding the frequencies of two Syntonon diatonics
one third away :
24 27 30 32 36 40 45
30 32 36 40 45 48 54
---------------------------
54 59 66 72 81 88 99, which belongs to the 13-1-39-3-59-9-11-27-33-81-99-121...series

This brings a more general question, which is how to name scales.
When I am not certain a scale has sufficient identity with a scale from a traditionnal culture,
I would rather create a name for it. I created many scales for example in the 22 srutis system,
out of which certainly many might match with real (ancient or rare) ragas ; but similar scales in
indian music can have different aroha / avaroha, vadis and samvadis, characteristic
scales and so on, and be different ragas. Every tradition has its particularities, and I prefer in
most
cases create my own names.

Does anyone knows if "Mougi", for example, has indian friends ? =
1/1 9/8 19/16 45/32 3/2 57/32 15/8
or 1/1 9/8 32/27 45/32 3/2 16/9 15/8 , as you like.

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...> wrote:
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote :
>
> > jacques -- are you the one who came up with the term "mohajira"?
> > there has been a huge amount of discussion on this list about the
> > scale, but we thought it was simply a rare arabic mode. please
fill
> > us in!
>
> That's pleasant ! should I pretend I just collected a "rare arabic
mode", then ?
> But as I said the name is from me,

ah! well then, graham should note this on his page, manuel should
note this on his mode list, and joseph should remember this for his
blackjack compositions!

> and it refers to series of neutral thirds, out of which
> many "neutral diatonic" scales can be generated.
> (I personnally prefer "neutral diatonic" to "arabic diatonic",
because all are not exclusively
> arabic).

true -- see this chinese example:

http://www.research.umbc.edu/eol/dujunco/tuning.html

🔗Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@anaphoria.com>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

that was graham's page. i like 14 tone scales a lot too, and have
written much about them here.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> >
>
> yes a different 10 tone scale. if you take a 10 tone scale from 24
ET good chances the 14 recipocal might be of worth too. At least this
is what i have found- if one subset of a scale is a scale or just
plain musically cohesive, the recipocal will quite often be
> as useful. I like 14 tone scales maybe as much as you like 10.
>
> >
> > Message: 7
> > From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> > Subject: Re: Question of name
> >
> >
> >
> > more information can be found here:
> >
> > http://x31eq.com/7plus3.htm
> >
> >
>
> -- -Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> KXLU 88.9 FM WED 8-9PM PST

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43373.html#43403

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...> wrote:
> > wallyesterpaulrus wrote :
> >
> > > jacques -- are you the one who came up with the term "mohajira"?
> > > there has been a huge amount of discussion on this list about
the
> > > scale, but we thought it was simply a rare arabic mode. please
> fill
> > > us in!
> >
> > That's pleasant ! should I pretend I just collected a "rare
arabic
> mode", then ?
> > But as I said the name is from me,
>
> ah! well then, graham should note this on his page, manuel should
> note this on his mode list, and joseph should remember this for his
> blackjack compositions!
>

***Nota bene...

Does this mean it still refers to every *third* note of Blackjack.
Hope so, or I'll have to rewrite my notes... :)

J. pehrson

🔗Manuel Op de Coul <manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com>

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
>
> /tuning/topicId_43373.html#43403
>
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, jacques dudon <aeh@f...> wrote:
> > > wallyesterpaulrus wrote :
> > >
> > > > jacques -- are you the one who came up with the
term "mohajira"?
> > > > there has been a huge amount of discussion on this list about
> the
> > > > scale, but we thought it was simply a rare arabic mode.
please
> > fill
> > > > us in!
> > >
> > > That's pleasant ! should I pretend I just collected a "rare
> arabic
> > mode", then ?
> > > But as I said the name is from me,
> >
> > ah! well then, graham should note this on his page, manuel should
> > note this on his mode list, and joseph should remember this for
his
> > blackjack compositions!
> >
>
> ***Nota bene...
>
> Does this mean it still refers to every *third* note of Blackjack.
> Hope so, or I'll have to rewrite my notes... :)
>
> J. pehrson

that's right, and the great thing is that it happens no matter where
you start, since every third note of 21 notes will always give you a
7-tone scale, and in the case of blackjack, always a mode of mohajira
(in its 24-equal incarnation).

this isn't true of the "decimal" scale as every other note of
blackjack, or the "slendro" scale as every fourth note of blackjack,
since neither 10 nor 5 is a divisor of 21.

🔗jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>

Manuel Op de Coul a ï¿½crit :

> Jacques wrote:
> >Does anyone knows if "Mougi", for example, has indian friends ? =
> > 1/1 9/8 19/16 45/32 3/2 57/32 15/8
> >or 1/1 9/8 32/27 45/32 3/2 16/9 15/8 , as you like.
>
> With those exact shruties I don't know, but Mela Nitimati, Raga
> Nisada and Raga Kaikavasi are similar (2 1 3 1 3 1 1).

Just ask, and Manuel finds it ! thanks a lot - it's true, I should have thought
of your "modename" list... The names sound rather south indian.
Do you have also a discography of indian ragas ? (I'm joking)

> The latest Scala version allows experimenting with Jacques' differentially
> coherent scales, via the command EQUALTEMP/DIFFERENTIAL.
> Maybe I'll add some more parameters later to produce a wider
> variety of scales.

I'm sorry I never been more into electronic instruments.
May be time has come for me to start, and to initiate myself to Scala...
I am very curious to know what you did, and I am grateful you got interested
in the question of these "-c" scales -
possibly one more bridge between tuning, and timbres.
Daniel Arfib, computer music searcher in Marseille, realized a digital version
of the photosonic disk, that uses the disks data. Difference tones sounds good
with electronic instruments, and can be enhanced by digital treatments.
"Equaltemp/differential" sounds like an interesting command ...
Will you explain somewhere what it does ?
Does this allows blind tests of the best differential-coherent approximations
of any equal temperament or scale ? or is it for the 188th century ?
Our crew here in South of France is busy thinking of making an inventory of
all differential-coherent scales, starting with those experimented with
photosonic disks - they will of course be at your disposal.

🔗Manuel Op de Coul <manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com>

Jacques Dudon wrote:

>May be time has come for me to start, and to initiate myself to Scala...
>I am very curious to know what you did, and I am grateful you got
interested
>in the question of these "-c" scales -

Well the best way is to try it out, I'll be interested in your comments.

>"Equaltemp/differential" sounds like an interesting command ...
>Will you explain somewhere what it does ?

Yes, that's in the help file, if you type "help equaltemp" it's at the
bottom.

>Does this allow blind tests of the best differential-coherent
approximations
>of any equal temperament or scale ?

Only of equal temperaments, not any scale. Since there is no objective
measure what is "best", the user can select some parameter.

>Our crew here in South of France is busy thinking of making an inventory
of
>all differential-coherent scales, starting with those experimented with
>photosonic disks - they will of course be at your disposal.

If the inventory would be made with Scala, it would save much work
for adding it to the scale archive.

>the mohajira series "justifies" "24-equal incarnation" as the simplest ET
for
>neutral thirds possible music, more than harmonic 3 "justifies" 12 ET.

17-tET approximates the JI version of Mohajira (on the CD) even
slightly better than 24-tET.

Manuel

🔗jacques dudon <aeh@free.fr>

on thursday 24th of april Manuel Op de Coul wrote :

> Jacques Dudon wrote:
> >Does this allow blind tests of the best differential-coherent
> approximations
> >of any equal temperament or scale ?
>
> Only of equal temperaments, not any scale. Since there is no objective
> measure what is "best", the user can select some parameter.

Interesting. You must have done some very clever arrangements indeed.

> >the mohajira series "justifies" "24-equal incarnation" as the simplest ET for
> >neutral thirds possible music, more than harmonic 3 "justifies" 12 ET.
>
> 17-tET approximates the JI version of Mohajira (on the CD) even
> slightly better than 24-tET.

Possible with early developpments of a series using 39, 48, 59.
Following the series would make it less evident.
With 34 instead of 17, "Olzal" series (1.225802981476..) becomes more relevant :
same neutral third, but the difference tone then comes in the middle
(5 divisions under the first tone) of the preceeding neutral third.
Since the next Fibonacci, 55, is very performant for Mohajira series,
some kind of golden scale might be working for both, with all the advantages
offered by having two archetypes.