Yahoo Tuning Groups Ultimate Backup tuning Vivaldi

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Are there any to disagree that Vivaldi is in 31-tone equal
temperament, or
> its closest Vicentino counterpart?
>
> Playing the E minor Bassoon Concerto (one of 36 concerti for
bassoon), I
> noticed an E# in the solo part of the second movement.
>
> Also, the last movement contains several A#s and Bbs.

hmm . . . i certainly see no reason to deny that vivaldi, like handel
and telemann, should be played in some sort of meantone, extended far
enough to capture all the enharmonic non-equivalents. 31-equal is a
form of meantone, so should work fine. however, note that vicentino
also championed a form of tuning known today as *adaptive just
intonation*, which i have put forth as an ideal for renaissance,
baroque, and most pre-beethoven classical music on flexible-pitch
instuments/voices. this involves two (you might need more for
vivaldi) 1/4-comma meantone chains tuned 1/4-comma apart, so that all
the harmonies are JUST.

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptiveji.htm

(it's unfortunate that monz uses the word "algorithm" in the first
sentence -- that makes it sound like a computer program is needed to
realize the music!)

> So, I guess the line goes: Vicentino to Gesualdo to Vivaldi.

i don't know of any direct influence of vicentino or gesualdo on
vivaldi, but i don't think that's necessarily relevant, as meantone
was the tuning of the day anyhow, and any attempt to "JUSTify" the
harmonies from there would have led to something awfully similar to
vicentino's proposal.

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> http://sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptiveji.htm
>
> (it's unfortunate that monz uses the word "algorithm" in the first
> sentence -- that makes it sound like a computer program is needed
to
> realize the music!)

also much of the rest of the introductory section applies not to
adaptive ji at all, but to adaptive tuning . . . and the tuning list
posts linked to, which indeed refer to adaptive tuning, aren't even
linked to from the adaptive tuning dictionary entry:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/adaptivetuning.htm

i'm sure i've submitted these corrections, and others, to monz
before, but he's been too busy to incorporate them . . .

🔗Afmmjr@aol.com

In a message dated 4/4/03 3:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

> (you might need more for
> vivaldi) 1/4-comma meantone chains tuned 1/4-comma apart, so that all
> the harmonies are JUST.
>
>

Justifying Vivaldi is the furthest thing from my mind. I want to present
Vivaldi in his native tuning. Since there is cembalo in each of the bassoon
concerti, the soloist, or as in the A Minor Concerto, can have the string
players playing notes not found on the keyboard.

The connection from Vicentino to Gesualdo to Vivaldi is the result of the
mass dissemination of Vicentio's book, and the popularity of Gesualdo's
music. The keyboard represents meantone. And Christian Huyghens is
basically the ultimate explanation for Italian chromaticism of the
mid-Baroque.

Since Vivaldi died in proportion of anonmymity/poverty, but under the noses
of the best musicians of Europe with his orchestra of women in Venice, his
must be a fully accepted cultural basic for his era in Venice. With meantone
safely established, an E# must indicate a dip in the chromatic pond. It is
certainly not a duplicate note (as it would have been for JS Bach).

So, even though all dieses of treceisimoprimal or never used, it retains of
necessary relationships for Vivaldi to dip into in order to spice up his
traditional quarter-comma meantone compass.

Thoughts? best, Johnny Reinhard

🔗wallyesterpaulrus <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 4/4/03 3:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wallyesterpaulrus@y... writes:
>
>
> > (you might need more for
> > vivaldi) 1/4-comma meantone chains tuned 1/4-comma apart, so that
all
> > the harmonies are JUST.
> >
> >
>
> Justifying Vivaldi is the furthest thing from my mind. I want to
>present
> Vivaldi in his native tuning.

of course, i wasn't talking about strict just intonation or anything
like that, i was talking about vicentino's tuning, since you're the
one who brought him up as a possible forebear of vivaldi!

what was vivaldi's "native instrument", if any?

do you not agree that performers of renaissance and baroque music on
flexible-pitch instruments tend to shade the meantone harmonies
toward just intonation? or do you really think the vertical perfect
fifths and minor thirds and major sixths would have always been
performed with that 5 cent deviation from just? even in long
sustained harmonies?

i know you advocated *strict* just intonation (as against adaptive
just intonation) for gesualdo, though you never explained what
*melodic* justness meant for you. so for the second time, i'm up
against a seeming wall with you when it comes to vicentino's adaptive
ji system.

> Since there is cembalo in each of the bassoon
> concerti, the soloist, or as in the A Minor Concerto, can have the
string
> players playing notes not found on the keyboard.

what pitches are found in the keyboard part? (i understand one may
have to work out some figured bass to determine this . . .)

> So, even though all dieses of treceisimoprimal or never used, it
retains of
> necessary relationships for Vivaldi to dip into in order to spice
up his
> traditional quarter-comma meantone compass.
>
> Thoughts?

don't know what that means, but i agree that vivaldi's E# was almost
certainly lower than his F, and that his tuning was in all
probability of the meantone realm.

vicentino's tuning on flexible-pitch instruments can be superimposed
over a meantone keyboard so that all the keyboard pitches are
realized either 2.69 cents higher or 2.69 cents lower when played by
a flexible-pitch instument, such that the flexible-pitch instuments
end up playing triads and major seventh chords that are JUST within
themselves. i take it you are not willing to consider a solution like
this, though i'm convinced that the impression it would make on an
audience would be nothing short of breathtaking, and is similar to
what a sensitive ensemble would produce over a meantone keyboard
anyway.

🔗Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com>

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus"

/tuning/topicId_43232.html#43247

<wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 4/4/03 3:11:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > wallyesterpaulrus@y... writes:
> >
> >
> > > (you might need more for
> > > vivaldi) 1/4-comma meantone chains tuned 1/4-comma apart, so
that
> all
> > > the harmonies are JUST.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Justifying Vivaldi is the furthest thing from my mind. I want to
> >present
> > Vivaldi in his native tuning.
>
> of course, i wasn't talking about strict just intonation or
anything
> like that, i was talking about vicentino's tuning, since you're the
> one who brought him up as a possible forebear of vivaldi!
>
> what was vivaldi's "native instrument", if any?
>
> do you not agree that performers of renaissance and baroque music
on
> flexible-pitch instruments tend to shade the meantone harmonies
> toward just intonation? or do you really think the vertical perfect
> fifths and minor thirds and major sixths would have always been
> performed with that 5 cent deviation from just? even in long
> sustained harmonies?
>
> i know you advocated *strict* just intonation (as against adaptive
> just intonation) for gesualdo, though you never explained what
> *melodic* justness meant for you. so for the second time, i'm up
> against a seeming wall with you when it comes to vicentino's
adaptive
> ji system.
>
> > Since there is cembalo in each of the bassoon
> > concerti, the soloist, or as in the A Minor Concerto, can have
the
> string
> > players playing notes not found on the keyboard.
>
> what pitches are found in the keyboard part? (i understand one may
> have to work out some figured bass to determine this . . .)
>
> > So, even though all dieses of treceisimoprimal or never used, it
> retains of
> > necessary relationships for Vivaldi to dip into in order to spice
> up his
> > traditional quarter-comma meantone compass.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> don't know what that means, but i agree that vivaldi's E# was
almost
> certainly lower than his F, and that his tuning was in all
> probability of the meantone realm.
>
> vicentino's tuning on flexible-pitch instruments can be
superimposed
> over a meantone keyboard so that all the keyboard pitches are
> realized either 2.69 cents higher or 2.69 cents lower when played
by
> a flexible-pitch instument, such that the flexible-pitch instuments
> end up playing triads and major seventh chords that are JUST within
> themselves. i take it you are not willing to consider a solution
like
> this, though i'm convinced that the impression it would make on an
> audience would be nothing short of breathtaking, and is similar to
> what a sensitive ensemble would produce over a meantone keyboard
> anyway.

***I love these ideas of "adaptive just" and I happen to think that
72-tET *is* "adaptive just" even though I know that some disagree...

There's a lot in common between 72-tET and the Vicentino system, in
my opinion...

J. Pehrson