Usage of adaptive tuning

Hello all,

After reading the messages about John deLaubenfel's JIRelay, it has made me wonder if the usage of "adaptive" tuning is something that is an "automatic" function (ie John's program determines the pitch centers), or is that something that is still left up to the composer to do?

I also remember Carl having made a comment about Chris Bailey's recording of his Piano Sonata, and having liked the "adaptive" tuning. From a message with Chris, I had found that I had made the mistaken assumption that "adaptive" tuning trys to allow modulations to other keys (tonal centers), while adjusting the tuning relationships to a "new tonal center". (I would think that it still could be used for this purpose.)

After reading Monz's Dictionary Description of "adaptive tuning", I get the impression that the whole idea behind "adaptive" is to reduce the level of disonance to a minimum (from Monz: "which keeps the ratios of simultaneous sounds close to just-intonation while also altering melodic intervals to reduce the retuning motion and/or drift relative to a strict JI realization"). The part on "reducing the retuning motion" is a little vague to me at the moment, and the "drift relative to a strict" seems to be somewhat understandable.

Does the use of adaptive tuning shift the means of selecting the harmonic fabric used away from the "traditional" root of a chord to how the chord fits to the melody? How would something like polyphony be handled? What do the tuning relationships relate to?

So, from this I get the idea that adaptive tuning is really just a larger number of steps in a grander scale, all for the purpose of reducing all the intervals to their closest JI interval. If this is the case, does this mean that the relationship on which to base that retuning is related to a key (or tonal center), or is it related only to that specific set of pitches at that given moment? Also, doesn't this accomplish the task of eliminating the occurance of higher order dissonances, thus accomplishing a similar side effect of 12-edo [or any equal temperment] of making all chords sound the same [although not to the same degree]?

Is there a set of online example pieces that show the usage of adaptive tuning? Comparisons?

Mike

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Michael McGonagle <fndsnd@r...> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
>
> After reading the messages about John deLaubenfel's JIRelay, it has
made
> me wonder if the usage of "adaptive" tuning is something that is an
> "automatic" function (ie John's program determines the pitch
centers),
> or is that something that is still left up to the composer to do?

either way!

> I also remember Carl having made a comment about Chris Bailey's
> recording of his Piano Sonata, and having liked the "adaptive"
tuning.

it had been retuned by john delaubenfels.

> From a message with Chris, I had found that I had made the
mistaken
> assumption that "adaptive" tuning trys to allow modulations to
other
> keys (tonal centers), while adjusting the tuning relationships to
a "new
> tonal center". (I would think that it still could be used for this
purpose.)

i think that *is* what it does, but in a more clever way than
a "naive" just intonation analysis would suggest (imho).

> After reading Monz's Dictionary Description of "adaptive tuning", I
get
> the impression that the whole idea behind "adaptive" is to reduce
the
> level of disonance to a minimum (from Monz: "which keeps the ratios
of
> simultaneous sounds close to just-intonation while also altering
melodic
> intervals to reduce the retuning motion and/or drift relative to a
> strict JI realization"). The part on "reducing the retuning motion"
is a
> little vague to me at the moment,

it means that sustained or repeated pitches won't move by too much --
i've been bothered by motions as small as 11 cents.

> and the "drift relative to a strict"
> seems to be somewhat understandable.
>
> Does the use of adaptive tuning shift the means of selecting the
> harmonic fabric used away from the "traditional" root of a chord to
how
> the chord fits to the melody?

there is no distinction between melody and harmony, or between roots
and other chord members . . . the idea of letting the root determine
the tuning doesn't jibe with western practice, for example the
subdominant is simultaneously ii7 and IV6, so why should these be
tuned differently? the answer for me is that they shouldn't, and the
whole problem of adaptive tuning actually ends up being simpler if
you drop the idea of a "just intonation major scale" behind it all.
western music just doesn't work that way, and in fact it's founded on
a certain set of "fudges", namely those associated with the 81:80
syntonic comma. thus keyboards were tuned in meantone for centuries,
until composers wanted to start "fudging" other small intervals --
beethoven is the biggie here.

> How would something like polyphony be
> handled?

everything is treated as polyphony to begin with.

> What do the tuning relationships relate to?

can you be more specific?

> So, from this I get the idea that adaptive tuning is really just a
> larger number of steps in a grander scale, all for the purpose of
> reducing all the intervals to their closest JI interval. If this is
the
> case, does this mean that the relationship on which to base that
> retuning is related to a key (or tonal center), or is it related
only to
> that specific set of pitches at that given moment?

the latter, and those that precede, and those that follow.

> Also, doesn't this
> accomplish the task of eliminating the occurance of higher order
> dissonances, thus accomplishing a similar side effect of 12-edo [or
any
> equal temperment] of making all chords sound the same [although not
to
> the same degree]?

no, the dissonances remain dissonant, often more so.

> Is there a set of online example pieces that show the usage of
adaptive
> tuning? Comparisons?

yup! right there on the john delaubenfels page. hear for yourself!

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

"it means that sustained or repeated pitches won't move by too much --
i've been bothered by motions as small as 11 cents."

This is especially true with straight, sustained tones from a fixed-
pitched instrument such as a keyboard during harmonic sequences that
mandate pitch shifts on common tones between adjacent chords in order
to avoid the infamous "comma drift". On the other hand, shifts of a
full syntonic comma (21.5 cents) are common among singers and even
string players in contexts in which this is not even mandated by the
harmonic context.

This is to say, routine correction of simple pitch errors of that
order of magnitude not even made to avoid comma drift is happening
all the time, even in exceptionally well-trained performers in terms
of pitch accuracy. In this context, adaptive JI is a much diminished
problem, and is demonstrably not even a problem in the fixed-pitch
context just described when shifts of a full comma are executed on
pitches not common to the adjacent chords, or even simply in
different octaves because they occur in different voice or
instrumental lines.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Wendell <rwendell@c...>"

/tuning/topicId_42545.html#42551

<rwendell@c...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
> <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
>
> "it means that sustained or repeated pitches won't move by too
much --
> i've been bothered by motions as small as 11 cents."
>
> This is especially true with straight, sustained tones from a fixed-
> pitched instrument such as a keyboard during harmonic sequences
that
> mandate pitch shifts on common tones between adjacent chords in
order
> to avoid the infamous "comma drift". On the other hand, shifts of a
> full syntonic comma (21.5 cents) are common among singers and even
> string players in contexts in which this is not even mandated by
the
> harmonic context.
>
> This is to say, routine correction of simple pitch errors of that
> order of magnitude not even made to avoid comma drift is happening
> all the time, even in exceptionally well-trained performers in
terms
> of pitch accuracy. In this context, adaptive JI is a much
diminished
> problem, and is demonstrably not even a problem in the fixed-pitch
> context just described when shifts of a full comma are executed on
> pitches not common to the adjacent chords, or even simply in
> different octaves because they occur in different voice or
> instrumental lines.

***Hi Bob!

Finally some real "cents" around here for a change....

Joseph Pehrson

Hi, Joe! Ha-ha! Good to hear from you! :)

Bob

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@r...>"
<jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Wendell <rwendell@c...>"
>
> /tuning/topicId_42545.html#42551
>
>
> <rwendell@c...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "wallyesterpaulrus
> > <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> >
> > "it means that sustained or repeated pitches won't move by too
> much --
> > i've been bothered by motions as small as 11 cents."
> >
> > This is especially true with straight, sustained tones from a
fixed-
> > pitched instrument such as a keyboard during harmonic sequences
> that
> > mandate pitch shifts on common tones between adjacent chords in
> order
> > to avoid the infamous "comma drift". On the other hand, shifts of
a
> > full syntonic comma (21.5 cents) are common among singers and
even
> > string players in contexts in which this is not even mandated by
> the
> > harmonic context.
> >
> > This is to say, routine correction of simple pitch errors of that
> > order of magnitude not even made to avoid comma drift is
happening
> > all the time, even in exceptionally well-trained performers in
> terms
> > of pitch accuracy. In this context, adaptive JI is a much
> diminished
> > problem, and is demonstrably not even a problem in the fixed-
pitch
> > context just described when shifts of a full comma are executed
on
> > pitches not common to the adjacent chords, or even simply in
> > different octaves because they occur in different voice or
> > instrumental lines.
>
>
> ***Hi Bob!
>
> Finally some real "cents" around here for a change....
>
> Joseph Pehrson