Historical tunings discography

Recordings of historical tunings on keyboard instruments are relatively common, but ensemble performances less so. Can anyone contribute to a discography of historicaly tuned performances in
meantones or well-temperaments?

>Recordings of historical tunings on keyboard instruments
>are relatively common, but ensemble performances less so.
>Can anyone contribute to a discography of historicaly tuned
>performances in meantones or well-temperaments?

Manuel had a start on this somewhere, but wrt recordings
made since 1990, this is the rule, not the exception, so
the notion of listing them is a bit off.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> Manuel had a start on this somewhere, but wrt recordings
> made since 1990, this is the rule, not the exception, so
> the notion of listing them is a bit off.

Are you sure? It's hard to find tuning information; sometimes it sounds as if they are not using 12-et but the notes don't say what they are using.

> > Manuel had a start on this somewhere, but wrt recordings
> > made since 1990, this is the rule, not the exception, so
> > the notion of listing them is a bit off.
>
> Are you sure? It's hard to find tuning information; sometimes
> it sounds as if they are not using 12-et but the notes don't
> say what they are using.

I am sure.

Often notes say what they use. Often they don't. But non-equal
tuning is standard on harpsichord, fortepiano, viol, and most
organs that are used for early music. And hardly present on many
winds and strings anyway. Lute/guitar may be the exception. I
have so many recordings of this stuff it would take hours to list
them.

-Carl

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>" <clumma@y...> wrote:

> Often notes say what they use. Often they don't. But non-equal
> tuning is standard on harpsichord, fortepiano, viol, and most
> organs that are used for early music. And hardly present on many
> winds and strings anyway. Lute/guitar may be the exception. I
> have so many recordings of this stuff it would take hours to list
> them.

I posted what I did after listening to a Hogwood/Schroeder AAM performance of Mozart symphonies. It didn't sound like 12-equal to me, but the liner notes, while saying A=430, say nothing else about tuning, leaving the listener to assume it is in 12et as a default. This doesn't strike me as very helpful.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@j...>"
<genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> Recordings of historical tunings on keyboard instruments are
relatively common, but ensemble performances less so. Can anyone
contribute to a discography of historicaly tuned performances in
> meantones or well-temperaments?

Even though there is an extensive availability of recordings of
keyboard instruments in historical tunings, the information given to
the listener is mostly not very detailed. Many organ recordings
report only thiongs like "modified meantone" or "well-tempered"
without mentioning the name of the tuning.
The only exception I know are 2 CD's I own from the Buxtehude series
recorded by Harald Vogel for MDG. The booklets of these CD's contain
a detailed description of the tuning including cent values.

Bart Pauwels

hi Gene,

> From: <genewardsmith@juno.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 11:42 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Historical tunings discography
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>" wrote:
>
> > Often notes say what they use. Often they don't. But non-equal
> > tuning is standard on harpsichord, fortepiano, viol, and most
> > organs that are used for early music. And hardly present on many
> > winds and strings anyway. Lute/guitar may be the exception. I
> > have so many recordings of this stuff it would take hours to list
> > them.
>
> I posted what I did after listening to a Hogwood/Schroeder AAM
> performance of Mozart symphonies. It didn't sound like 12-equal
> to me, but the liner notes, while saying A=430, say nothing else
> about tuning, leaving the listener to assume it is in 12et as a
> default. This doesn't strike me as very helpful.

the ensembles conducted by Hogwood generally use
"original instruments", meaning woodwinds without
(most) keys and brass without valves.

i'm not sure what the intended tuning of keyless
woodwinds was (perhaps Johnny can help here?) but
it's probably either JI or meantone -- and definitely
*not* 12edo -- and the valveless brass for sure are in JI.

(12edo became the tuning criterion for the heavily
keyed woodwinds developed by Boehm [flute], Triebert [oboe],
Buffet [clarinet], and Heckel [bassoon] in the mid-1800s
... altho i might be wrong about Heckel -- again, i defer
to Johnny here. and 12edo was also certainly the tuning
desideratum for the valved brasses.)

my guess would be that for wind instruments for which
Mozart wrote, meantone was the built-in tuning ...
most likely, something along the lines of 55edo.
(see my webpage about it)
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/55edo/55edo.htm

i used to have a very old recording of Mozart's
40th Symphony (the famous one in G-minor), one
of the earliest recordings ever made of an entire
symphony (c. 1920 or so, non-electronic -- i.e.,
recorded with the instruments playing into a big
horn on a recording Victrola), and it sounded very
much like the 55edo MIDI-file which opens with my
webpage.

-monz

> i'm not sure what the intended tuning of keyless
> woodwinds was (perhaps Johnny can help here?) but
> it's probably either JI or meantone

They're "in" whatever you can get out of them!

> the valveless brass for sure are in JI.

That's one to ask Paul. They sure sound like it
through the 11th harmonic, but because they're
mostly melodic it's hard to hear how accurate
they are.

Note bene, one doesn't need valveless horns to get
JI!

-C.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Ward Smith <genewardsmith@j...>"

/tuning/topicId_41985.html#41989

<genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>"
<clumma@y...> wrote:
>
> > Often notes say what they use. Often they don't. But non-equal
> > tuning is standard on harpsichord, fortepiano, viol, and most
> > organs that are used for early music. And hardly present on many
> > winds and strings anyway. Lute/guitar may be the exception. I
> > have so many recordings of this stuff it would take hours to list
> > them.
>
> I posted what I did after listening to a Hogwood/Schroeder AAM
performance of Mozart symphonies. It didn't sound like 12-equal to
me, but the liner notes, while saying A=430, say nothing else about
tuning, leaving the listener to assume it is in 12et as a default.
This doesn't strike me as very helpful.

***I believe Carl is right and the *majority* of Early Music
recordings are in non-12-et.

Apparently the performers feel the tuning details are technicalities
the most listeners wouldn't be interested in.

The fact that tuning is not more emphasized is probably one of the
reasons that people know so little about it, and are so resistant to
it. I agree, the improvement of this situation could start right
with the record "jackets..."

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>"

/tuning/topicId_41985.html#41995

<clumma@y...> wrote:
> > i'm not sure what the intended tuning of keyless
> > woodwinds was (perhaps Johnny can help here?) but
> > it's probably either JI or meantone
>
> They're "in" whatever you can get out of them!
>
> > the valveless brass for sure are in JI.
>
> That's one to ask Paul. They sure sound like it
> through the 11th harmonic, but because they're
> mostly melodic it's hard to hear how accurate
> they are.
>
> Note bene, one doesn't need valveless horns to get
> JI!
>
> -C.

***Well, of course, this is absolutely true. In my work with the
terrific virtuoso Francis Orval, more than 10 years ago, we
*explored* many of the "outsider" pitches of the horn from the
harmonic series in each position. Orval was particularly interested
in such studies and in Just Intonation.

He did a great recital, including my piece in Merkin Hall and it was
reviewed by John Rockwell of the NY Times.

Rockwell dismissed virtually *all* of the alternately tuned pieces
and said that Orval was at his best when he played a "decent" piece,
a work by Hindemith.

J. Pehrson

In a message dated 1/30/03 3:03:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, bps1572@mail.be
writes:

> CD's I own from the Buxtehude series
> recorded by Harald Vogel for MDG. The booklets of these CD's contain
> a detailed description of the tuning including cent values.
>
>

Bart, could you tell us if the Buxtehude was Werckmeister III, or was
something else used? Johnny Reinhard

Monzo asked about fretless winds: They play easily in well-temered
Werckmeister III or in any of the meantone variations. The heavy keys are
added for winds to play in ET.

And you are correct that Heckel bassoon is designed for 12-tET.

Johnny Reinhard

p.s. just learned how to use scotch tape to tune a bassoon to Werckmeister
III in mere moments.

My suggestion is to make 2 lists: one for recordings that signify a
particular historical tuning or adaption (such as Owen Jorgensen's
Aron-Neidhart tuning), and one where a tuning distinction is heard but not
identified. I'm sure we can make the necessary inquiries and find out
satisfactorily (such as Mitsuko Uchida's Mozart piano sonatas in Werckmeister
III, which she indicated in a British interview that was published). There
are always new people to contact.

I would also suggest that the historically identified tunings be reviewed as
to historical appropriateness. Right now, any well temperament can and is
being used for Bach. However, I hope that before long, it will be clear that
Werckmeister III was the actual tuning employed and favored, not Valotti.

best, Johnny Reinhard

> Apparently the performers feel the tuning details are
> technicalities the most listeners wouldn't be interested in.

And they are correct.

> The fact that tuning is not more emphasized is probably one
> of the reasons that people know so little about it, and are
> so resistant to it. I agree, the improvement of this situation
> could start right with the record "jackets..."

Well, my intro to tuning came from the jacket of Switched-On
Bach 2000, and then from a Ravi Shankar LP. So I can't argue
with that.

But I think it's very important to separate the subject of
historical tuning (5-limit meantone, well-temperaments) from
that of extended just intonation and the temperaments that go
along with it (also a handful of weird 5-limit temperaments),
which is what many of us here are interested in.

-Carl

hi Carl and Joe,

> From: <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 6:40 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: Historical tunings discography
>
>
> --- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Carl Lumma <clumma@y...>"
>
> /tuning/topicId_41985.html#41995
>
> <clumma@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > [me, monz:]
> > > i'm not sure what the intended tuning of keyless
> > > woodwinds was (perhaps Johnny can help here?) but
> > > it's probably either JI or meantone
> >
> > [Carl:]
> > They're "in" whatever you can get out of them!
> >
> > > the valveless brass for sure are in JI.
> >
> > That's one to ask Paul. They sure sound like it
> > through the 11th harmonic, but because they're
> > mostly melodic it's hard to hear how accurate
> > they are.
> >
> > Note bene, one doesn't need valveless horns to get
> > JI!
> >
> > -C.
>
>
> ***Well, of course, this is absolutely true.
> In my work with the terrific virtuoso Francis Orval,
> more than 10 years ago, we *explored* many of the
> "outsider" pitches of the horn from the harmonic
> series in each position. Orval was particularly
> interested in such studies and in Just Intonation.

this brings up an interesting point: wouldn't an
ensemble of valved brass instruments theoretically
be able to produce a rich, complex adaptive-JI
combining the features of 12edo and JI?

> He did a great recital, including my piece in
> Merkin Hall and it was reviewed by John Rockwell
> of the NY Times.
>
> Rockwell dismissed virtually *all* of the alternately tuned pieces
> and said that Orval was at his best when he played a "decent" piece,
> a work by Hindemith.

yeah, well, that's just one critic's opinion.
(but i admit to having been an avid fan of
Rockwell's writing several years ago.)

Orval is fantastic -- i've seen/heard him at a couple
of Johnny's AFMM concerts. in fact, i believe i saw
him do your horn piece, Joe, yes?

-monz

hi Johnny,

> From: <Afmmjr@aol.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Historical tunings discography
>
>
> Monzo asked about fretless winds: They play easily
> in well-temered Werckmeister III or in any of the
> meantone variations. The heavy keys are added
> for winds to play in ET.
>
> And you are correct that Heckel bassoon is designed for 12-tET.

thanks!

hmmm ... interesting ... your comment here led me to
create a graph comparing Werckmeister III and
1/4-comma meantone, which can be viewed at the
bottom of the "1/4-comma meantone" Dictionary entry
<http://sonic-arts.org/dict/1-4cmt.htm> or on the
"Werckmeister III" entry
<http://sonic-arts.org/dict/werckmeister.htm>.

the diatonic pitches (A, B, C, D, E, F, G,) are nearly
the same for both of those tunings, but the "black key"
notes, which are cross-fingerings on "fretless"
(i guess that's a slip for "keyless"?) woodwinds,
are quite different:

there's a difference of only 0 to 5 cents for F, C, G, D, A, E,
a difference of about 9 cents for both B and F#, but
differences of between 11 and 20 cents for C#, Eb, G#, and Bb!

so, which tuning was most commonly used as the guide
to the boring of the finger-holes on keyless woodwinds?
was it closer to a well-temperament or to a meantone?

-monz

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> this brings up an interesting point: wouldn't an
> ensemble of valved brass instruments theoretically
> be able to produce a rich, complex adaptive-JI
> combining the features of 12edo and JI?

well, sure, as would an ensemble of strings or winds or a choir. in
each case, what is needed is an ability to finely tune each pitch up
or down, by an amount depending on context. brasses don't have much
of an advantage here, though they have more of an *impetus* to do so
due to their rich overtone series . . .

. . . which are exactly harmonic by the way, if you've been reading
this list for the past week or so . . .

monz wrote:

>the diatonic pitches (A, B, C, D, E, F, G,) are nearly
>the same for both of those tunings, but the "black key"
>notes, which are cross-fingerings on "fretless"
>(i guess that's a slip for "keyless"?) woodwinds,
>are quite different: > >
The black keys in Werckmeister III are Pythagorean, so you have two tunings sharing a keyboard.

Graham

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41985.html#42013

>> Orval is fantastic -- i've seen/heard him at a couple
> of Johnny's AFMM concerts. in fact, i believe i saw
> him do your horn piece, Joe, yes?
>
>
>
> -monz

***Hi Monz,

Oh, yes. Now I recall that he performed on Johnny's concerts with
his wife Ruby... That was 'way back in 1988...

Joe Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> hi Johnny,
>
>
> > From: <Afmmjr@a...>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: [tuning] Re: Historical tunings discography
> >
> >
> > Monzo asked about fretless winds: They play easily
> > in well-temered Werckmeister III or in any of the
> > meantone variations. The heavy keys are added
> > for winds to play in ET.
> >
> > And you are correct that Heckel bassoon is designed for 12-tET.
>
>
> thanks!
>
>
> hmmm ... interesting ... your comment here led me to
> create a graph comparing Werckmeister III and
> 1/4-comma meantone, which can be viewed at the
> bottom of the "1/4-comma meantone" Dictionary entry
> <http://sonic-arts.org/dict/1-4cmt.htm> or on the
> "Werckmeister III" entry
> <http://sonic-arts.org/dict/werckmeister.htm>.
>
>
> the diatonic pitches (A, B, C, D, E, F, G,) are nearly
> the same for both of those tunings, but the "black key"
> notes, which are cross-fingerings on "fretless"
> (i guess that's a slip for "keyless"?) woodwinds,
> are quite different:
>
> there's a difference of only 0 to 5 cents for F, C, G, D, A, E,
> a difference of about 9 cents for both B and F#, but
> differences of between 11 and 20 cents for C#, Eb, G#, and Bb!

you made an arbitrary assumption about which pitch is the same in the
two systems. how do you justify that assumption? i think it would be
better to just compare the intervals, not the pitches, unless you
could specify a common situation in which the two tunings would be
used together, in which case a pitch comparison would be most
appropriate (but with what common pitch, if any)?

> so, which tuning was most commonly used as the guide
> to the boring of the finger-holes on keyless woodwinds?
> was it closer to a well-temperament or to a meantone?

i've seen webpages for high-end wind instruments
advertising "renaissance" instruments bored for 1/4-comma meantone
and "baroque" instruments bored for 1/6-comma meantone. the latter
would seem to be supported by the writings of quantz (18th century
flute master), among others. but i'm certainly no expert.

> this brings up an interesting point: wouldn't an
> ensemble of valved brass instruments theoretically
> be able to produce a rich, complex adaptive-JI
> combining the features of 12edo and JI?

It isn't that they would, it's that they do. We've
discussed this many times on this list.

Note also that the Morvians have employed trombone
choirs, dating back to the 1700's in Pennsylvania.

-C.

In a message dated 1/30/03 3:58:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
monz@attglobal.net writes:

> there's a difference of only 0 to 5 cents for F, C, G, D, A, E,
> a difference of about 9 cents for both B and F#, but
> differences of between 11 and 20 cents for C#, Eb, G#, and Bb!
>
>

Joe, that's too being a difference. There's only a 6 cents difference
between each of the melodic intervals. This is a kind of musical etching.
The schisms caused by errors up to 5 cents would register as distinctive back
then, I believe. I could tell.

> so, which tuning was most commonly used as the guide
> to the boring of the finger-holes on keyless woodwinds?
> was it closer to a well-temperament or to a meantone?
>
>
Meantone was first. Then well-temerament. To go to 12 ET from Werckmeister
III, enlarge the tone holes. This is only for transition instruments, many
of which have been studied at museums. They reflect the enlarging of tone
holes in transition instruments.

Even 12 ET is related to WIII since it really is easy to retune a traditional
instrument.

Best, Johnny Reinhard

The 7 CD's in the recording of the complete organ works of Dietrich
Butehude by Harald Vogel are recorded on different organs, with
different tunings.
CD 1 is recorded on the organs of Lübbeck (Werckmeister III) and
Norden (modified 1/5 comma meantone).
CD 7 is recorded on the Schnitger organ of the Jacobi church in
Hamburg (modified 1/5 comma meantone).
Both modified meantones are documented, although on CD 7 the circle
of fifths is only given as a textual description, whiwh is not very
accurate. A decisive answer can only be given by recalculating the
fifths from the cents values of teh scale.
CD 1 has the circle of fifths for the tuning used. The two modified
meantones are not the same. I do not have the fifth cycles at hand
now. I don't know whether these are historical tunings or inventions
by Harald Vogel or the restauration advisors.

Bart Pauwels

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/30/03 3:03:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bps1572@m...
> writes:
>
>
> > CD's I own from the Buxtehude series
> > recorded by Harald Vogel for MDG. The booklets of these CD's
contain
> > a detailed description of the tuning including cent values.
> >
> >
>
> Bart, could you tell us if the Buxtehude was Werckmeister III, or
was
> something else used? Johnny Reinhard

Bart, thanks for the information. But you haven't lived until you have heard
Buxtehude in his choice of tuning, Werckmeister III. It really breathes and
sings. I have 2 CDs by Armin Shoof made in the St. Jacobi church of Lubeck.

Also, the Schnitger organ in Hamburg is now restored in Werckmeister, as it
was originally in the Baroque period. best, Johnny Reinhard