Thou Shalt Not Mention 12-ET!

Jon:

>Daniel, you've come into the home of people who cherish and revel in >the >wide pallette of intonations, who appreciate and celebrate the >differences >that differing tuning choices create in the great musics
>of the world (not to mention those just being developed). And you've >done >it not only without taking off your shoes, but you've tracked mud >into the >house.

Wow. Daniel's reception makes me feel relieved that my recent, rather timid defence of 'serialism' as ONE valid compositional approach in the VAST universe of such possibilities was only ignored. This place is sounding more and more like any other Conservatorium with each successive digest. (Emphasis on conservative!)

Here is the description of the list, from the Home Page:

"This mailing list is intended for exchanging ideas relevant to alternate tunings: just intonation; paratactical tunings; experimental musical instrument design; non-standard equal temperaments; MIDI tuning system exclusive specs; concert postings; gamelan tunings and other non-western tunings; historical tunings; the experimental tunings of Harry Partch, Lou Harrison, Martin Bartlett, James Tenney, and so on; software reports; recordings; books; research sources, etcetera."

I can't see anything which says that a committment to microtonality is a prerequisite of membership, just an open and enquiring mind. Everybody has to start somewhere, and even Partch composed 12-ET music in his early years, before giving up, burning the lot, and starting again from the _true_ basics. I can understand why committed microtonalists would feel edgy to have someone state here that they, personally, prefer 12-ET to microtones, but really; in the final analysis, is there _really_ any criterion for adherence to a particular tuning system other than personal preference?

Perhaps this sort of reception explains why there are some five hundred lurkers on the list; maybe they feel just a trifle intimidated...?

I have said my say. Now crucify me upside-down on a Harmonic Canon...

->Zx<-

____________________________________________________________

The proliferation of children who can reach the heights of computer creation brings to light a basic feature of the computer itself - it is infantile...[t]he microcomputer is above all a game and is infantile. But it is also very dangerous. We need to know whether it does not also 'infantalize'.

-Jacques Ellul, `The Technological Bluff'
________________________________________________

The disciple Hui-K'e asked Bodhidharma, "Please help me to quiet my mind." Bodhidharma said, "Bring me your mind so that I can quiet it." After a moment Hui-K'e said, "But I can't find my mind." "There," said Bodhidharma, "I have now quieted your mind."

-Charles Luk

________________________________________________

Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion.

-Democritos

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

A homosexual should be able to walk into a gay bar without Jerry Falwell running in to shout at him, once again, that homosexuality is a departure from God's natural law. And a microtonalist should be able to come to the tuning list without some asshole running in to tell him, once again, that 12tet is the one perfect and natural tuning. People who think the majority culture is just ducky have other places they can hang out.

Yours,

Kyle Gann

Zx: (if that is the appropriate attribution...)

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus" <zibethicus@h...> wrote:
> Wow. Daniel's reception makes me feel relieved that my recent,
> rather timid defence of 'serialism' as ONE valid compositional
> approach in the VAST universe of such possibilities was only
> ignored.

Sure, it's valid. Probably the reason no one felt compelled to reply. However, unlike Daniel, you didn't mention it as the beginning of a thread that said "Serialism is the *best* way to write music, and people who have been writing music in other ways are mistaken. And all that music would sound better if we just serialized it."

> This place is sounding more and more like any other Conservatorium
> with each successive digest. (Emphasis on conservative!)

Don't know how long you've been on, but this place ebbs and flows quite a bit. But I can tell you that of the people I know here that have actively created music, or actively developed the basis for a music (consisting of one or more 'alternate' tuning systems) - well, the stuff is pretty much all over the map. Some of it conservative, yes; some of it not that at all.

> I can't see anything which says that a committment to
> microtonality is a prerequisite of membership, just an open and
> enquiring mind.

Of course. And Daniel, being a heads-up young lad, knew enough that when he posed his intial query he'd get a lot of responses. 12tet has it's place, and there are zillions of places to explore it; there are damn few places to explore everything else, and this is one of those places.

> Everybody has to start somewhere, and even Partch composed 12-ET
> music in his early years, before giving up, burning the lot, and
> starting again from the _true_ basics.

Hey, he's talking *my* subject! Yep, he sure did. And when he learned about what you refer to as the "_true_ basics", he had to find that out all on his own, in a burdonsome and laborious exercise in low-rent scholarship and musical archeology. I have often wondered what would have happened (and wished, now, that I had asked him when he was alive) if there was a support network of people like the tuning list for him to bounce ideas off of. Even ideas like "virtually all music would sound best in 12tet".

> but really; in the final analysis, is there _really_ any criterion
> for adherence to a particular tuning system other than personal
> preference?

No, there isn't, which was one of my main thrusts to Daniel: you can't expect all music to get squeezed into one mold, which is what he is 'asking' us to accept.

> Perhaps this sort of reception explains why there are some five
> hundred lurkers on the list; maybe they feel just a trifle
> intimidated...?

Hardly. You must have missed this in one of my first replies to Daniel: "Look, I mean this in all good intent. ASCII is awful at portraying feelings, so don't take any 'mean-ness' in my writing."

To which he replied "np", the universally accepted acronym for "no problem". I've also since complemented him on his music, having taken the time to go and check out his personal site. I've also chided a colleague for what I think *was* a hasty rejection of Daniel out-of-hand - everyone should get a fair shake on this, or any forum.

I don't back down on anything I've said to D, and I haven't had time tonight to reply to his latest to me (which needs doing, youbetcha). Give Daniel credit for having conviction and curiousity - I do, else I wouldn't waste my time trying to open some more doors for him to go through.

> I have said my say. Now crucify me upside-down on a Harmonic
> Canon...

A Kithara, maybe, but you'll have to be a heck of a lot more offensive than this! :)

Cheers,
Jon
(purveyor of the Harry Partch site "Corporeal Meadows" since 1996:
http://www.corporeal.com/ )

ArchD'Ikon Zibethicus wrote:

> Jon:
>
> >Daniel, you've come into the home of people who cherish and revel in >the
> >wide pallette of intonations, who appreciate and celebrate the >differences
> >that differing tuning choices create in the great musics
> >of the world (not to mention those just being developed). And you've >done
> >it not only without taking off your shoes, but you've tracked mud >into the
> >house.
>
> Wow. Daniel's reception makes me feel relieved that my recent, rather timid
> defence of 'serialism' as ONE valid compositional approach in the VAST
> universe of such possibilities was only ignored. This place is sounding
> more and more like any other Conservatorium with each successive digest.
> (Emphasis on conservative!)
>
> Here is the description of the list, from the Home Page:
>
> "This mailing list is intended for exchanging ideas relevant to alternate
> tunings: just intonation; paratactical tunings; experimental musical
> instrument design; non-standard equal temperaments; MIDI tuning system
> exclusive specs; concert postings; gamelan tunings and other non-western
> tunings; historical tunings; the experimental tunings of Harry Partch, Lou
> Harrison, Martin Bartlett, James Tenney, and so on; software reports;
> recordings; books; research sources, etcetera."
>
> I can't see anything which says that a committment to microtonality is a
> prerequisite of membership, just an open and enquiring mind. Everybody has
> to start somewhere, and even Partch composed 12-ET music in his early years,
> before giving up, burning the lot, and starting again from the _true_
> basics. I can understand why committed microtonalists would feel edgy to
> have someone state here that they, personally, prefer 12-ET to microtones,
> but really; in the final analysis, is there _really_ any criterion for
> adherence to a particular tuning system other than personal preference?
>
> Perhaps this sort of reception explains why there are some five hundred
> lurkers on the list; maybe they feel just a trifle intimidated...?
>
> I have said my say. Now crucify me upside-down on a Harmonic Canon...
>
> ->Zx<-
>

You have a valid point here, but to be charitable I think that most of the answers to Daniel's
ideas were attempts, gauche at times I admit, to probe a little deeper and to help him to learn
something new. People her really do want to help, despite their perceived manner, but there are
ways and means of eliciting goodwill. Dialogue is a two-way process. A blanket statement like "12
is best" doesn't really show us an "open and enquiring mind"

I remember (going misty-eyed) that I lurked for a time then posted a few of my own ideas and was
ritually slaughtered : - ) I particularly admire Joe P. who wades in and asks when he doesn't
understand something and has no fear of admitting he doesn't know something. I ask any time I
have to because I'm not a mathematician though I'm a better one since I started here. It has
dawned on me that in order to learn I am going to have to eat humble pie but to fight my corner
when I need to.

In a sense this is a Conservatory of sorts, with human and various media resources, lacking only
the face to face contact which would most certainly defuse many of the tiffs that arise from time
to time.

The edginess that some may feel on the fringes of a list such as this mirrors the situation we
have with musical academia and microtonality, fear of the unknown, made more acute by the fact
that the subject perceives him- or herself to be extremely knowledgeable about music.

You will learn on the fringes but you will learn much much more by entering into some of the
discussions. And don't worry about the lack of social graces here and there. This is the internet
after all.

Kind Regards

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

> The edginess that some may feel on the fringes of a list such as this mirrors the situation we
> have with musical academia and microtonality, fear of the unknown, made more acute by the fact
> that the subject perceives him- or herself to be extremely knowledgeable about music.

Speaking of academics and knowledge of music, I don't think Daniel was roasted to nearly the same extent as Julia, who did not say 12-et was the only way to go, but who did have something of the "only way to go" mentality. Daniel knows he doesn't know, and that helps.

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Szanto <JSZANTO@A...>"

/tuning/topicId_41583.html#41585

>
> Hey, he's talking *my* subject! Yep, he sure did. And when he
learned about what you refer to as the "_true_ basics", he had to
find that out all on his own, in a burdonsome and laborious exercise
in low-rent scholarship and musical archeology. I have often wondered
what would have happened (and wished, now, that I had asked him when
he was alive) if there was a support network of people like the
tuning list for him to bounce ideas off of. Even ideas
like "virtually all music would sound best in 12tet".
>

***Well, certainly he [Partch] would be writing in "Blackjack..." :)

(Just joking, Jon)

JP

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, Alison Monteith

/tuning/topicId_41583.html#41586
> >
>
> I remember (going misty-eyed) that I lurked for a time then posted
a few of my own ideas and was ritually slaughtered : - ) I
particularly admire Joe P. who wades in and asks when he doesn't
> understand something and has no fear of admitting he doesn't know
something.

***Thanks, Alison. Yes, this I can do. I always "drag mud into the
house" as well, but try to clean up afterward! :)

>
> In a sense this is a Conservatory of sorts, with human and various
media resources, lacking only the face to face contact which would
most certainly defuse many of the tiffs that arise from time to time.
>

***(But, they're .jpegs! :) Yes, it's true. And one of the strange
pleasures of lists like this is that one gets to know people in
writing and then maybe a year or two years later meets them "in the
flesh..." It's a strange and fascinating experience and only
something I've experienced since being involved with this Internet
stuff...

OK... lets just say that, as *many* people have said before, because
of the nature of lists like this one must be *extordinarily* adept at
the emotional and social skills of writing. Some people are better at
this than others. (That doesn't mean they don't have their *own*
wonderful talents, of course...)

Certainly coming on a list and playing "devils advocate" doesn't work
because of this medium. Maybe it would work at a gathering or a
party or such like where people are together in a group, but because
of the nature of this medium it really isn't the best approach.

J. Pehrson

Actually, I have always felt 12-tET was as legitimate as any other microtonal
system. I think one makes a mistake to assume what everyone on this list
thinks or believes.

All music is microtonal. The only thing alternative is culturally based.
Any one that has a question about 12-tET that needs to be asked from an
intonational point of view has every right, and possibly a responsibility, to
present it.

best, Johnny Reinhard
Director, AFMM

>Speaking of academics and knowledge of music, I don't think
>Daniel was roasted to nearly the same extent as Julia, who
>did not say 12-et was the only way to go, but who did have
>something of the "only way to go" mentality. Daniel knows he
>doesn't know, and that helps.

I can't believe anybody is going for these. Are we that
desperate to get on here and gab? Gay bars were even
invoked. Countdown to the first mention of Nazis. . .
[whoops]

-Carl