Re: [tuning] Re: microtonal accidentals in Finale

hi Jon,

> From: "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@ADNC.COM>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:52 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: microtonal accidentals in Finale
>
>
> Monz,
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > well, you *have* put your finger on one of the problems
> > with Finale: it is extensively menu-driven and, more importantly,
> > almost *exclusively* menu-driven. clicking on different parts
> > of the on-screen display rarely does anything.
>
> Just out of curiousity, what *version* of Finale are you
> describing? All software (or all software that lasts in
> the market) goes through changes and upgrades in response
> to either real or perceived consumer desires. Finale has been
> bitten pretty well by other notation programs, most notably
> Sibelius; this is the reason they've had so many promotions.
>
> And having worked with Finale in some of it's earliest forms,
> and then more recently (my last work with Finale was about
> 1.5 years ago), they had made a lot of improvements in useability.
> I'm not conjecturing that it is as good/easy/transparent an
> interface as Sibelius, just that it may have come closer.
>
> Bottom line: if we're discussing software (especially in comparison)
> it only serves its purpose if we discuss the most current versions.
> The features one is missing may very well be there if you are using
> an old version for your baseline.

very good point. i actually have used Finale only very little
since the last time i did a lot of work on my book (1998), generally
only when i need a musical illustration for a webpage.

these days, i'm using a version which i downloaded for free
from somewhere in 2000. the version i know better is the original
one i purchased, back around 1997.

as i said, i perceive the biggest hassle to be that any accidentals
may be created for Finale, but they can only specify deviations
from 12edo. if an app or a plug-in can be created which bases
the accidentals on Pythagorean tuning, as they evolved historically,
that would provide a much more elegant method for the implementation
of JI-specific accidental symbols.

-monz

hi Joe,

> From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:33 AM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: microtonal accidentals in Finale
>

> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_41223.html#41223
>
> >
> > anyway, getting back to the main reason why i personally
> > never pursued microtonal accidentals in Finale: my understanding
> > of how Finale does microtonality is that you have to set up
> > the accidentals to make adjustments relative to 12edo.
> >
>
> ***Hi Monz!
>
> But isn't this just as much due to the nature of the MIDI spec. as
> anything? MIDI is designed for 12-equal, isn't it? So deviations
> from it are just that...
>
> The Sibelius plug-in I've been mentioning makes it possible to assign
> pitch bends to every pitch class and accidental througout the entire
> range, but of course those are also deviations from the basic 12-
> equal MIDI assignments. One has to also *remember* what the "new"
> accidentals stand for, as well, since they no longer have
> their "usual" values.

i would guess that you're on the right track: probably the main
reason Finale (and all other notation software i know of) bases
its microtonal accidentals on 12edo is because that's how MIDI is
set up.

for more specifics on how MIDI tuning works:
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/miditune/miditune.htm

*BUT* ... there should be no reason why a plug-in can't be
developed which adds another layer of abstraction over the
MIDI tuning mechanism, in which the user can define accidentals
according to various mathematical paramenters. the plug-in
would then do the math required to translate the user's
definitions into the 12edo-based MIDI format.

this is essentially what Manuel has done in Scala: one
may choose a variety of different notation systems and get
the proper MIDI pitch-bend. the same principle could be
applied to notation software.

-monz

Joe wrote:
> > anyway, getting back to the main reason why i personally
> > never pursued microtonal accidentals in Finale: my understanding
> > of how Finale does microtonality is that you have to set up
> > the accidentals to make adjustments relative to 12edo.

And the question also is, can you set the tuning for notes
_without_ accidentals?
So if you for example want to change the tuning from 1/4 to
1/5-comma meantone, can this be done automatically or is it
a hand editing nightmare?

Manuel

Hi Joe, Monz,
I'm reading all this notational discussion with great
interest. From what I can tell, there is no universal
musical notation system out there that really works
for most of us. It seems that all that would be
necessary is to find a good traditional notation
program, then hire a programmer to customize that
program for generalized microtonal notation. The best
system seems to be the "cents" notation advocated by
Johnny Reinhard, because it gives the pitches accurate
to within 1/100th of a traditional half-step and is
practical for performing musicians. I know a
programmer who claims he can do this on Cakewalk, at
least. Not the greatest notation program but
functional. He may be willing to research and develop
a customized "piggyback" notation program for Finale
or Sibelius, I'd have to ask. If we can find ten
people to go in on the cost of it, maybe we can get a
real, practical, user-friendly (or at least
user-tolerant) notational program for almost all of
us!
Any potential takers?
Chris Mohr

--- monz <monz@attglobal.net> wrote:
> hi Joe,
>
>
> > From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> > To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:33 AM
> > Subject: [tuning] Re: microtonal accidentals in
> Finale
> >
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_41223.html#41223
> >
> > >
> > > anyway, getting back to the main reason why i
> personally
> > > never pursued microtonal accidentals in Finale:
> my understanding
> > > of how Finale does microtonality is that you
> have to set up
> > > the accidentals to make adjustments relative to
> 12edo.
> > >
> >
> > ***Hi Monz!
> >
> > But isn't this just as much due to the nature of
> the MIDI spec. as
> > anything? MIDI is designed for 12-equal, isn't
> it? So deviations
> > from it are just that...
> >
> > The Sibelius plug-in I've been mentioning makes it
> possible to assign
> > pitch bends to every pitch class and accidental
> througout the entire
> > range, but of course those are also deviations
> from the basic 12-
> > equal MIDI assignments. One has to also
> *remember* what the "new"
> > accidentals stand for, as well, since they no
> longer have
> > their "usual" values.
>
>
>
> i would guess that you're on the right track:
> probably the main
> reason Finale (and all other notation software i
> know of) bases
> its microtonal accidentals on 12edo is because
> that's how MIDI is
> set up.
>
> for more specifics on how MIDI tuning works:
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/miditune/miditune.htm
>
>
>
> *BUT* ... there should be no reason why a plug-in
> can't be
> developed which adds another layer of abstraction
> over the
> MIDI tuning mechanism, in which the user can define
> accidentals
> according to various mathematical paramenters. the
> plug-in
> would then do the math required to translate the
> user's
> definitions into the 12edo-based MIDI format.
>
> this is essentially what Manuel has done in Scala:
> one
> may choose a variety of different notation systems
> and get
> the proper MIDI pitch-bend. the same principle
> could be
> applied to notation software.
>
>
>
> -monz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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