microtonal accidentals in Finale (was: A single notation system for any tuning)

hi Joe,

> From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:15 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: A single notation system for any tuning
>
>
> Maybe Sibelius is, therefore, OK for microtonality, since
> I keep hearing how so many people think Finale is so good,
> but nobody really seems to know how to do it... Wading
> through dialogue boxes, I guess....

well, you *have* put your finger on one of the problems
with Finale: it is extensively menu-driven and, more importantly,
almost *exclusively* menu-driven. clicking on different parts
of the on-screen display rarely does anything.

if i ever get the time to dive back into my JustMusic project,
the main thing i want to implement is, contrary to Finale,
extensive intuitive point-and-click architecture. clicking
on various points on lattice-diagrams or staff-notations
would either cause specific actions or open a menu of choices.

in Finale, you have to memorize the menu (and sub-menu, and
sub-sub-menu, etc. etc.) structure, and because of its depth
of features, navigating those menus gets to be quite daunting.

anyway, getting back to the main reason why i personally
never pursued microtonal accidentals in Finale: my understanding
of how Finale does microtonality is that you have to set up
the accidentals to make adjustments relative to 12edo.

given the much broader interest i have in tunings like this
now (for example, i'm definitely interested in 72edo),
i might be inclined to study it again.

but back when i first got Finale and learned how to use it,
i was exclusively concerned with prime-factor-exponent-vector
notation, or to translate that into something more easily
understood by the general reader, JI. (my Tuning Dictionary
definition of HEWM gives a good explanation.)
http://sonic-arts.org/dict/hewm.htm

this type of notation ultimately has its basis in
Pythagorean tuning, which, while well approximated by 12edo,
is still mathematically incommensurable with it. when i
realized that Finale's approach would make this very
difficult, i pretty much laid aside my interest in it.

-monz

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41223.html#41223

>
> anyway, getting back to the main reason why i personally
> never pursued microtonal accidentals in Finale: my understanding
> of how Finale does microtonality is that you have to set up
> the accidentals to make adjustments relative to 12edo.
>

***Hi Monz!

But isn't this just as much due to the nature of the MIDI spec. as
anything? MIDI is designed for 12-equal, isn't it? So deviations
from it are just that...

The Sibelius plug-in I've been mentioning makes it possible to assign
pitch bends to every pitch class and accidental througout the entire
range, but of course those are also deviations from the basic 12-
equal MIDI assignments. One has to also *remember* what the "new"
accidentals stand for, as well, since they no longer have
their "usual" values.

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> The Sibelius plug-in I've been mentioning makes it possible to assign
> pitch bends to every pitch class and accidental througout the entire
> range, but of course those are also deviations from the basic 12-
> equal MIDI assignments. One has to also *remember* what the "new"
> accidentals stand for, as well, since they no longer have
> their "usual" values.

What plug-in is this, and where did you get it?

Monz,

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> well, you *have* put your finger on one of the problems
> with Finale: it is extensively menu-driven and, more importantly,
> almost *exclusively* menu-driven. clicking on different parts
> of the on-screen display rarely does anything.

Just out of curiousity, what *version* of Finale are you describing? All software (or all software that lasts in the market) goes through changes and upgrades in response to either real or perceived consumer desires. Finale has been bitten pretty well by other notation programs, most notably Sibelius; this is the reason they've had so many promotions.

And having worked with Finale in some of it's earliest forms, and then more recently (my last work with Finale was about 1.5 years ago), they had made a lot of improvements in useability. I'm not conjecturing that it is as good/easy/transparent an interface as Sibelius, just that it may have come closer.

Bottom line: if we're discussing software (especially in comparison) it only serves its purpose if we discuss the most current versions. The features one is missing may very well be there if you are using an old version for your baseline.

My $.02,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41223.html#41232

> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > The Sibelius plug-in I've been mentioning makes it possible to
assign
> > pitch bends to every pitch class and accidental througout the
entire
> > range, but of course those are also deviations from the basic 12-
> > equal MIDI assignments. One has to also *remember* what
the "new"
> > accidentals stand for, as well, since they no longer have
> > their "usual" values.
>
> What plug-in is this, and where did you get it?

***Hi Gene!

The gentleman who wrote this plug-in is named Pete Walton, and he
will gladly send you a copy. He is also extremely knowledgable about
all the microtonal-pitch bend possibilities in Sibelius.

I will send you his e-mail address off list if you want to contact
him. Hopefully his plug-in can do what you want or it could be
easily modified.

best,

Joe

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41223.html#41234

> --- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_41223.html#41232
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > The Sibelius plug-in I've been mentioning makes it possible to
> assign
> > > pitch bends to every pitch class and accidental througout the
> entire
> > > range, but of course those are also deviations from the basic
12-
> > > equal MIDI assignments. One has to also *remember* what
> the "new"
> > > accidentals stand for, as well, since they no longer have
> > > their "usual" values.
> >
> > What plug-in is this, and where did you get it?
>
>
> ***Hi Gene!
>
> The gentleman who wrote this plug-in is named Pete Walton, and he
> will gladly send you a copy. He is also extremely knowledgable
about
> all the microtonal-pitch bend possibilities in Sibelius.
>
> I will send you his e-mail address off list if you want to contact
> him. Hopefully his plug-in can do what you want or it could be
> easily modified.
>
> best,
>
> Joe

***Actually, I guess *I* could also send you a copy if you don't want
to wait around for Pete... I'm not sure if the plug-in works with
the *demo* edition of Sibelius, but it probably does...

JP

Finale is just what I've been working with and they've made pitch bend really easy. In the "expression" menu if you attach a cent marking to a notehead, if you go to Edit>Show Playback Options>Set a Pitch Wheel under the "Type" pull-down menu and enter a value and also check Replace # With: and select button "Playback's Set-Value Number, you're all set because every note with that particular cent marking will have a pitch bend attached to it.

The only counter-musical problem is that you would have to enter a cent marking "every" time the note occurs, even multiple times in a one measure.

What I've found intriguing is Finale implementation of patch number which occurs in the Window menu>Instrument List. By choosing a new instrument in the second column "Instrument" the actually patch name is overriden.

monz wrote:

>hi Joe,
>
> >
>>From: "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
>>To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 3:15 PM
>>Subject: [tuning] Re: A single notation system for any tuning
>>
>>
>>Maybe Sibelius is, therefore, OK for microtonality, since
>>I keep hearing how so many people think Finale is so good,
>>but nobody really seems to know how to do it... Wading
>>through dialogue boxes, I guess....
>> >>
>
>
>
>well, you *have* put your finger on one of the problems
>with Finale: it is extensively menu-driven and, more importantly,
>almost *exclusively* menu-driven. clicking on different parts
>of the on-screen display rarely does anything.
>
>if i ever get the time to dive back into my JustMusic project,
>the main thing i want to implement is, contrary to Finale,
>extensive intuitive point-and-click architecture. clicking
>on various points on lattice-diagrams or staff-notations
>would either cause specific actions or open a menu of choices.
>
>in Finale, you have to memorize the menu (and sub-menu, and
>sub-sub-menu, etc. etc.) structure, and because of its depth
>of features, navigating those menus gets to be quite daunting.
>
>
>anyway, getting back to the main reason why i personally
>never pursued microtonal accidentals in Finale: my understanding
>of how Finale does microtonality is that you have to set up
>the accidentals to make adjustments relative to 12edo. >
>given the much broader interest i have in tunings like this
>now (for example, i'm definitely interested in 72edo),
>i might be inclined to study it again. >
>but back when i first got Finale and learned how to use it, >i was exclusively concerned with prime-factor-exponent-vector
>notation, or to translate that into something more easily
>understood by the general reader, JI. (my Tuning Dictionary
>definition of HEWM gives a good explanation.)
>http://sonic-arts.org/dict/hewm.htm
>
>this type of notation ultimately has its basis in
>Pythagorean tuning, which, while well approximated by 12edo,
>is still mathematically incommensurable with it. when i
>realized that Finale's approach would make this very
>difficult, i pretty much laid aside my interest in it.
>
>
>
>
>-monz
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