Universal Musical Notation System

Hi everyone,
I check into my microtonal e-mail only every couple
weeks or so, but the universal notation dialogue is of
great interest to me. I am very slowly working on an
oratorio using a 53-equal template, and I will be
combining synthesized music, live musicians and
singers. I agree with Johnny Reinhard that the "cents"
system makes the most sense for the most applications,
especially when live musicians are involved. And
someday I hope to be able to compose and notate using
that system on my computer. My opinion won't sway
others, I'm sure, but I just need a practical system
of notation that can be understood by the greatest
number of musicians.
So here's a relatively simple question. I'm still
looking for a musical notation program which can do
Reinhard-style "cents" notation, or at least which can
be easily modified to do this. For example, I play
MIDI track 2 MIDI note number 97 (my generalized
keyboard has 288 notes, each individually
programmable, so I need 3 MIDI tracks per musical
line) and I want it to notate a C#+32 cents one octave
above middle C or whatever. I have asked Sibelius if
this can be done and they said no. Can Finale do this?
Can ANY major notational program do this?
I know a guy who claims he can do some serious
programming in Cakewalk and achieve this, tho he
admits Cakewalk is not as good a program in general
for notation. If he did it, he might like to market it
to microtonalists. That way I wouldn't have to pay
thousands of dollars myself to get this notational
system developed.
So Johnny and others, before I accidentally set about
reinventing the wheel, does such a program already
exist, and if not, does anyone know which program
could best accomplish this?
Thanks to all,
Chris Mohr, Denver

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--- In tuning@y..., Chris Mohr <fromtherealmoftheshadow@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41227.html#41227

>> So here's a relatively simple question. I'm still
> looking for a musical notation program which can do
> Reinhard-style "cents" notation, or at least which can
> be easily modified to do this. For example, I play
> MIDI track 2 MIDI note number 97 (my generalized
> keyboard has 288 notes, each individually
> programmable, so I need 3 MIDI tracks per musical
> line) and I want it to notate a C#+32 cents one octave
> above middle C or whatever. I have asked Sibelius if
> this can be done and they said no.

***Hi Chris,

I don't know who you asked at Sibelius, but I'm pretty sure that the
plug in invented by Pete Walton can do this... I'll give you his e-
mail address if you'd like to chat with him. He's *very*
knowledgable about the subject.

Most probably they just mean that Sibelius can't do this *in and of
itself* without using a plug-in. But more and more of these
specialized plug-ins are being developed for it all the time...

And, pitch bends can also be entered in *manually* as I've mentioned,
once one figures out how the cents scale relates to the pitch bend
numbers...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Chris Mohr <fromtherealmoftheshadow@y...> wrote:

For example, I play
> MIDI track 2 MIDI note number 97 (my generalized
> keyboard has 288 notes, each individually
> programmable, so I need 3 MIDI tracks per musical
> line) and I want it to notate a C#+32 cents one octave
> above middle C or whatever. I have asked Sibelius if
> this can be done and they said no.

I asked the same question and they said no--but also, that a plug-in could easily be written that would accomplish this.

Perhaps you can make someone enthousiastic about adding
microtonal support to MusiXTeX, Rosegarden and PMX?
An open source solution would be highly preferable.
You might see the site http://www.music-notation.info
which link I posted earlier.
It says microtonal support is planned for GUIDO but not
when, or how.

Manuel

I thought i would throw out an ideas that might be useful.
The idea of cents could be useful in that most players already know what
cents are.
The thing is i have never really liked to refer to notes as numbers but
by letters. it always make them more "real" for me
like they have a "name".
One notation system for numbers used of possible by those interest is
the following
it is not this notation would be the best one but its method might spark
some ideas. it is concise
You can see it at http://www.anaphoria.com/magusnumbers.gif
I myself have used it in that you can represent numbers is a confined
space
especially in charts. even ratios. it is good upto 9999.
WHat it lacks is enough differances in symbols but this i sonething i
have noticed in other suggestions. What make sharps and flats work so
well is that visually they are so different that one does not really
need t oponder long t otell which one it is. Ideally any notation would
have symbols that varied greatly from each other (symbols).

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Hi Chris,

I'm using Finale for the score of the Ives "Universe Symphony" and it works
with cents. Just make a text box above the note and indicate the + or -
cents deviations above the note head.

On caveat, put the cents in last, on the final parts. I found that when
putting parts together to make a score, the text boxes are erased.

best, Johnny Reinhard

Hi Johnny,
Good to hear from you again! Thanks for your reply. It
sounds like I would have to add the cents notation in
manually, one note at a time. What I'm hoping for is a
template, where I play, say MIDI note 97 channel two
and the score is preprogrammed by me to automatically
print out C#+32 or whatever. If such a program does
NOT exist, are there ten people or so who would want
it and go in together to hire a programmer to create
it? The first really practical computer notation
system like that would do a lot to "universalize" the
cents system.
Chris Mohr

--- Afmmjr@aol.com wrote:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I'm using Finale for the score of the Ives "Universe
> Symphony" and it works
> with cents. Just make a text box above the note and
> indicate the + or -
> cents deviations above the note head.
>
> On caveat, put the cents in last, on the final
> parts. I found that when
> putting parts together to make a score, the text
> boxes are erased.
>
> best, Johnny Reinhard
>

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Joe,
This is VERY encouraging news. Yes I would like to
write to Pete Walton, how can I reach him? Sibelius is
the program I'm most interested in, and if Pete can
work out this notational glitch and I can work out the
pitch bend/cents relationships in Sibelius, we might
really have something here.
I read and responded to e-mails out of order, and I
should have waited to make my call for ten
"volunteers" to develop a good notational system until
after reading your encouraging e-mail!
Chris Mohr

--- Joseph Pehrson <jpehrson@rcn.com> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Chris Mohr
> <fromtherealmoftheshadow@y...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_41227.html#41227
>
> >> So here's a relatively simple question. I'm still
> > looking for a musical notation program which can
> do
> > Reinhard-style "cents" notation, or at least which
> can
> > be easily modified to do this. For example, I play
> > MIDI track 2 MIDI note number 97 (my generalized
> > keyboard has 288 notes, each individually
> > programmable, so I need 3 MIDI tracks per musical
> > line) and I want it to notate a C#+32 cents one
> octave
> > above middle C or whatever. I have asked Sibelius
> if
> > this can be done and they said no.
>
> ***Hi Chris,
>
> I don't know who you asked at Sibelius, but I'm
> pretty sure that the
> plug in invented by Pete Walton can do this... I'll
> give you his e-
> mail address if you'd like to chat with him. He's
> *very*
> knowledgable about the subject.
>
> Most probably they just mean that Sibelius can't do
> this *in and of
> itself* without using a plug-in. But more and more
> of these
> specialized plug-ins are being developed for it all
> the time...
>
> And, pitch bends can also be entered in *manually*
> as I've mentioned,
> once one figures out how the cents scale relates to
> the pitch bend
> numbers...
>
> J. Pehrson
>
>
>

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--- In tuning@y..., Chris Mohr <fromtherealmoftheshadow@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41227.html#41311

> Hi Johnny,
> Good to hear from you again! Thanks for your reply. It
> sounds like I would have to add the cents notation in
> manually, one note at a time. What I'm hoping for is a
> template, where I play, say MIDI note 97 channel two
> and the score is preprogrammed by me to automatically
> print out C#+32 or whatever. If such a program does
> NOT exist, are there ten people or so who would want
> it and go in together to hire a programmer to create
> it? The first really practical computer notation
> system like that would do a lot to "universalize" the
> cents system.
> Chris Mohr
>

***Hi Chris,

I'm pretty sure that the Sibelius "plug-in" invented by Pete Walton
can do this, but it's not instantaneous... i.e. you run the plug-in
after the music is already in the score. Probably Pete would have
more information about this...

best,

Joe Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Chris Mohr <fromtherealmoftheshadow@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_41227.html#41313

> Joe,
> This is VERY encouraging news. Yes I would like to
> write to Pete Walton, how can I reach him? Sibelius is
> the program I'm most interested in, and if Pete can
> work out this notational glitch and I can work out the
> pitch bend/cents relationships in Sibelius, we might
> really have something here.
> I read and responded to e-mails out of order, and I
> should have waited to make my call for ten
> "volunteers" to develop a good notational system until
> after reading your encouraging e-mail!
> Chris Mohr
>

Hi Chris!

I just sent you Pete Walton's e-mail address. He's the person to
ask, and I'm pretty sure the plug-in with only minor modification can
do what you want.

Please let me know the results, and if you had any problem getting
the e-mail address I sent privately (via Yahoo...)

best,

Joe