Sequencer and Notation Programs

Hello all,

I am currently looking to put a Mac Powerbook into use as my main music machine, and was hoping that I could get some comments on sequencer and notation programs, and how they all handle microtonal stuff...

Thanks,

Mike

> Re: Sequencer and Notation Programs
>
> On Sunday, November 17, 2002, at 10:28 , tuning@yahoogroups.com wrote:
>
> From: Michael J McGonagle <fndsnd@rcnchicago.com>
> Subject: Sequencer and Notation Programs
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am currently looking to put a Mac Powerbook into use as my > main music
> machine, and was hoping that I could get some comments on sequencer and
> notation programs, and how they all handle microtonal stuff...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike

IMHO, Coda Finale 2003 is the best all-round option.

If you're looking for regular sequencer-type things, there's Emagic Logic (now a subsidiary of Apple Computer). Howver there is not much in the way of specific microtonal support.

I say go with Finale 2003. It's out for OS X, but Finale 2003 works in Classic mode only however, not native OS X.
http://www.codamusic.com/finale/index.asp

Finale 2004 due next year will have native OS X support.
http://www.macnn.com/news.php?id=15498

Cheer,
Joel

--- In tuning@y..., Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@P...> wrote:

> IMHO, Coda Finale 2003 is the best all-round option.

What are the comparitive features of Finale and Sibelius, and how in particular do they work with microtonality?

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40938.html#40952

> --- In tuning@y..., Joel Rodrigues <jdrodrigues@P...> wrote:
>
> > IMHO, Coda Finale 2003 is the best all-round option.
>
> What are the comparitive features of Finale and Sibelius, and how
in particular do they work with microtonality?

***I have posted quite a bit about the use of microtonality with
Sibelius on the Sibelius users list but, unfortunately, the *main*
list (there are two primary ones)is only accessible by registered
users...

Basically, Sibelius by default only does quartertones, and they use
symbols reminiscent of the Tartini type. I should add, though, that
at present even *this* implementation is not full, since one needs to
use a "plug in" in order to realize the appropriate pitch bends for
playback. So, that's an extra step, and not yet part of the
program. One of my objectives has been to get the Sibelius people to
*at least* fully implement quartertones, and they may be close to
that in the next issue of the software. Most probably this would be
the next thing they would do, although they have mentioned to me that
they have the Ezra Sims 72-tET symbols on their list of "possible"
future features.

Please keep in mind, though, that that's an incredibly *extensive*
list, and I can assure you that microtonalists are only a small
segment of their user base.

In addition to these "built in" features, it *is* possible to assign
pitch bends *manually* to any symbol in Sibelius. For example, I can
use the Ted Mook symbols for 72-equal, which are in postscript, and
import them in as *symbols*, the particular term in Sibelius for a
bunch of such items that can be added to a score.

Regrettably, such "symbols" cannot be assigned pitch bends. I am
told this can be done in Finale, but by a rather circuitous and
cumbersome route.

HOWEVER, it *is* possible to *type in* the pitch bends over each
note, and get the correct intonation. This is how I realize the
quartertones, sixth tones and 12-th tones in Sibelius. It *does*
work. Occasionally things get a little "funky" for one mysterious
reason or another, but on the overall it *does* work, and it *is*
possible to composer in 72-equal with Sibelius, or, actually, in any
other system. Please keep in mind, though, that since the pitch
bends work on a *channel* basis, it is not possible to use chords on
one stave that have more than one bend simultaneously! In other
words, if *all* the notes bend up by 1/6th of a whole tone, etc.,
you're OK, but if they differ they have to be in different staves in
simultaneities, since each *staff* is a different channel.

Now, there are also some microtonalists who have created *other* more
extensive plug-ins for Sibelius and I think, Gene, you would be
particularly interested in those.

There is a guy by the name of Pete Walton who has created
a "temperaments plug in" for Sibelius. Basically he uses the 9
principal accidentals for every "white note" pitch, say Dbb, Db, D#,
D##, D 3-quartertone flat, D quartertone flat, D quartertone sharp, D
three quartertones sharp, well, and D natural, which makes 9:

And, using the plug-in, you can automatically *assign* any pitch
bends to these existing accidentals, so you can create temperaments
such as 19-equal and 31-equal etc., all the way up to 9*7 (the
nominals) = 63-tET...

That means, of course, 72-tET can't be done that way.

Quite frankly, since the resulting notation is so different from
our "traditional" usage... i.e. even the *natural* notes would have a
different pitch from the *normal* using the temperaments plug in, I,
frankly find it confusing.

It might be usable, however, for some people with a more theoretical
mindset, and who are willing to veer that far from 12-tET.

For *me* thought, I would much rather use the Sims, symbols and put
the pitch bends in *manually* for 72-tET. It only takes a second to
put a pitch bend in manually.

From the discussions I have read, it seems that the microtonal
implementation of Finale is more robust, and it *is* possible to
assign pitch bends to symbols. This is something that David Doty has
been talking about quite a bit...

However, people also seem to feel that, on the overall, Sibelius is a
much more *intuitive* program to use, and the user interface, in
general is better designed. The general opinion of many users of
both programs is that Sibelius is, on the overall, a better designed
and newer program that is still in it's infancy, and as it develops
it will gain the depth of some of Finale's more detailed features.

Since I haven't used Finale, I will leave it to a user to explain the
micro possibilites of that package...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> Basically, Sibelius by default only does quartertones, and they use
> symbols reminiscent of the Tartini type.

I looked at the Sibelius site, and they seem to be claiming that Sibelius 2 does more than this--"all standard microtonal notations" or some such claim, which if true means they should have Sims notation, though from what you say apparently they don't. Thanks for all of the information!

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40938.html#40960

> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > Basically, Sibelius by default only does quartertones, and they
use symbols reminiscent of the Tartini type.
>
> I looked at the Sibelius site, and they seem to be claiming that
Sibelius 2 does more than this--"all standard microtonal notations"
or some such claim, which if true means they should have Sims
notation, though from what you say apparently they don't. Thanks for
all of the information!

***Well, I think that "sales talk" simply means quartertones. All
this has been quite a topic of conversation on the Sibelius list.
You can ask them directly, if you wish, since they're very
responsive, but I can assure you the buck stops with quartertones,
and even that not fully, at this point.

P.S. As I mentioned, Postscript *symbols* from fonts can be imported
and pitch bends *manually* assigned, but that's not really "all
standard microtonal notations" either, in my book...

JP

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40938.html#40961

> --- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_40938.html#40960
>
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > Basically, Sibelius by default only does quartertones, and they
> use symbols reminiscent of the Tartini type.
> >
> > I looked at the Sibelius site, and they seem to be claiming that
> Sibelius 2 does more than this--"all standard microtonal notations"
> or some such claim, which if true means they should have Sims
> notation, though from what you say apparently they don't. Thanks
for
> all of the information!
>
>
> ***Well, I think that "sales talk" simply means quartertones. All
> this has been quite a topic of conversation on the Sibelius list.
> You can ask them directly, if you wish, since they're very
> responsive, but I can assure you the buck stops with quartertones,
> and even that not fully, at this point.
>
> P.S. As I mentioned, Postscript *symbols* from fonts can be
imported
> and pitch bends *manually* assigned, but that's not really "all
> standard microtonal notations" either, in my book...
>
> JP

***OH... Gee, Gene... I forgot to mention something: Since you've
been over on the Sibelius site, you should install and run the "demo."

The demo version of Sibelius does absolutely *everything* that the
program does, with the exception of the *saving* function, so you can
experiment with all the features, including the microtonal ones that
the program offers...

JP

I'm using Finale 2001 for notation and MOTU Performer for sequencing. The microtonal stuff I have to do either by tuning the synth and recording various tracks at different pitch levels or if I'm out for a midi file I do the pitch bend in Finale attached to the note expression as a cent marking.

I've been informed that midi is a lot more complicated than I had anticipated in that your have to do the detuning by "midi channels" if you want to have more than one pitch going on. Also the pitch bend stays put until you tell it to go back to concert. Therefore having one track do all the microtones would be putting in a lot of pitch bend commands. Better would be to split the tuning into various tracks or in Finale into different instruments and apply the pitch bend globally. We can discuss this off the tuninglist if you'd like.

Rick

Michael J McGonagle wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I am currently looking to put a Mac Powerbook into use as my main music >machine, and was hoping that I could get some comments on sequencer and >notation programs, and how they all handle microtonal stuff...
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike
>
>
>
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Hi there,

The thing that makes retuning tricky in midi is that the pitch bend
has to be set for the channel as a whole.

This approach is a sensible one because it's the only way you can
have pitch glissandi. For instance if you bend a note using a pitch bend
wheel on a keyboard, the pitch bend has to retune notes
already in play as well as ones that get played later because that
is the only way it will be able to slowly "bend" a note.

However, one could also have pitch bends that only affect notes
yet to be played - I've seen this mentioned as a possible
implementation of Midi pitch bends - with the recommendation that
any synth that provides this option should also implement the
more usual approach where one can retune notes in play.

One could also as a more novel feature have a pitch bend that
applies only to the very next note to be played.

I don't know if many synths or soft synths implement this option.
However FTS has to retune notes in play in response to the pitch
bends anyway as a separate step, since they get moved to new
channels in order to play microotnal chords. So that makes it an
easy matter to leave that step out so that notes already in
play keep their existing tuning when you apply a new
pitch bends.

So, I've added both those options to FTS:

In | Options | Kbd options | Only retune new notes

and also the novel one:

Pitch bend applies to next note only

Perhaps these may be useful on occasion for microtonal accidentals type composing.

You can save your midi clips in your notation program,
and then play them in FTS using Views | Retuning midi player (midi format 0 only)
to hear them.

Alternatively, relay the midi output of your sequencer or notation program
to FTS via Midi Yoke Junction.

Then you can record in FTS as it plays to convert into a midi file that
uses pitch bends to retune all the notes in play, for playback
on most sound cards and synths.

http://tunesmithy.co.uk

Robert

HI there,

in case it isn't clear from the prev. e-mail, the idea is that
you could play a microtonal chord in a single channel
if the pitch bends only applied to notes in the future
after the bend.

Obviously best thing is if one used a synth that had
a switch on it to change between the two modes.

However one can also use FTS in this way to achieve the
same effect, which it will do by moving the notes to be
played to new channels as needed within FTS.

Then you do a microtonal chord as a series of note ons
and pitch bends as e.g. a triad:

pitch bend for 1st note
note on for 1st note

pitch bend for 2nd note
note on for 2nd note

pitch bend for 3rd note
note on for 3rd note

all in the same channel.

If your sequencer or notaton program allows one to
set the order of midi events even when they are played
simultaneously all those events could be simultaneous
but in that order. Or you could edit the midi file
after the event to get the order write, e.g.
using midi2txt and text2midi.

Alternatively one could play it always as a broken
chord, but with pauses of only say 2 ms just to make
sure your notation / sequencer keeps the desired
order of all the midi events.

This can be done now in FTS and if there is any interest
in it then more work could certainly be done too to add
any new desired features to make it work optimally.

Robert

Robert,
Thanks very much for these ideas! I'm going to pass
them on to a friend who is helping me through this
(I'm weak in the technical area, but not completely
phobic) so I'll let you and the rest of us know where
I end up. I'm grateful to all the help I've been
getting from several people along the way and am
feeling more and more confident that at some point
I'll get the system I need.
Chris Mohr

--- Robert Walker <robertwalker@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> HI there,
>
> in case it isn't clear from the prev. e-mail, the
> idea is that
> you could play a microtonal chord in a single
> channel
> if the pitch bends only applied to notes in the
> future
> after the bend.
>
> Obviously best thing is if one used a synth that had
> a switch on it to change between the two modes.
>
> However one can also use FTS in this way to achieve
> the
> same effect, which it will do by moving the notes to
> be
> played to new channels as needed within FTS.
>
> Then you do a microtonal chord as a series of note
> ons
> and pitch bends as e.g. a triad:
>
> pitch bend for 1st note
> note on for 1st note
>
> pitch bend for 2nd note
> note on for 2nd note
>
> pitch bend for 3rd note
> note on for 3rd note
>
> all in the same channel.
>
> If your sequencer or notaton program allows one to
> set the order of midi events even when they are
> played
> simultaneously all those events could be
> simultaneous
> but in that order. Or you could edit the midi file
> after the event to get the order write, e.g.
> using midi2txt and text2midi.
>
> Alternatively one could play it always as a broken
> chord, but with pauses of only say 2 ms just to make
> sure your notation / sequencer keeps the desired
> order of all the midi events.
>
> This can be done now in FTS and if there is any
> interest
> in it then more work could certainly be done too to
> add
> any new desired features to make it work optimally.
>
> Robert
>
>
>
>

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