Ben Johnston recordings, seasickness, training

> I mentioned to her that I think it *is* possible to
>excellently perform microtonal works, and cited the performance
>of the Ben Johnston quartets, which she had not heard. She
>expressed an interest in them...
>
> Maybe I'll just send her a copy of a couple of the
>Ben Johnston quartets to get a reaction...
>
> She'll probably just say they sound "out of tune..."
>

Well, to be honest, if you're talking about the old CRI recordings
of those pieces, they *do* sound "out of tune" for the most part. Now, it
could be that my ears aren't "attuned" enough to JI to know the
difference, but I think that JI has a "sound"---a kind of "buzz" or
"purr" to it (not "buzz" in the sense that Kyle Gann means with 12-tet (I
find it odd that he uses that word actually---what I find lame about
12tet is the lack of anything in particular that you hear in it--it
just sounds empty in comparison to JI, with it's hummy purring). Any
time I put on computer-generated JI stuff I can definitely hear that JI
sound. When I'm listening to PArtch on chromelodeon (as opposed to the
inharmonic metallic and wood timbres) also. And La Monte Young's and
???? Harrison's pianos. And this "JI sound" is something I heard and
recognized immediately---the first time I put on the Well-Tuned Piano
(which was, to my best recollection, the first JI piece I ever heard)---I
didn't have to "learn it."

But I'm afraid I rarely get this from the B Johnston quartets,
(the recordings) at least, #2 and #6. I'm not knocking the
pieces----that little MIDI exceprt that Joe Monzo has on his website of
the 8th quartet is truely AWESOME in what it's weirdness does to my
brain. yum yum. And I can hear the "purr" in every chord (doesn't it go
up to the 37th limit or such?)

Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think this is
something positive, something to aim for in microtonality in general. The
feeling that your whole sense of pitch-world is being warped. I get that
from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul Erlich's TIBIA, and many
others. That's a sensation to treasure in my opinion.

On the other hand, there's sounding "out of tune." That means
that the music sounds plain old wrong. Someting about the tuning you're
hearing ---the player's intonation of it, or the tuning itself---isn't
strong enough to twist your stomach. So you just think it sounds "out of
tune."

Of course there are always details and subtleties that more
experienced folks will catch and others won't. But there has to be
something immediate. When I put on Well-Tuned-Piano, I don't need to
listen to more than a few seconds to hear that the tuning GELS, coheres.

Sadly, I don't get this from the 2nd and 6th Quartet recordings of
Johnston. Something is wrong. If it's my "lack of experience" as a
listener, than the music is no better than the old modernist stuff that
insists on experience before one can "appreciate the rows" or whatever.
But I dont' think that's the problem. I think it's the performances.

I should add that I have the Johnston "piano album", and it all
works like gangbusters----it doesn't sound "out of tune" at all.

C Bailey

--- In tuning@y..., Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:

> could be that my ears aren't "attuned" enough to JI to know the
> difference, but I think that JI has a "sound"---a kind of "buzz" or
> "purr" to it (not "buzz" in the sense that Kyle Gann means with
12-tet (I
> find it odd that he uses that word actually---what I find lame
about
> 12tet is the lack of anything in particular that you hear in it--it
> just sounds empty in comparison to JI, with it's hummy
purring).

i find that curious. i certainly know the ji "buzz" that you're talking
about -- the sychrony of all the combinational tones, etc. -- but
when moving away from ji, this "buzz" turns into at least as
noticeable a "noise", and of course you get the beating too. so to
my ears, it's *definitely* the just intervals that sound "empty" in
comparison with their tempered counterparts. "empty" is of
course a very useful quality to have at your disposal, artistically
speaking . . .

i don't remember the details of the ben johnston string quartet
recordings that joseph, myself, and several other list members
were fortunate enough to obtain copies of through this list. i think
some of the details were posted here. but there are many, many
moments on the middle few quartets, and almost the entirety of
quartet #6, where the ji "buzz" is well in evidence.

> But I'm afraid I rarely get this from the B Johnston quartets,
> (the recordings) at least, #2 and #6.

i suspect we may be listening to different recordings of #6, then.
#2, i believe, is in a much more atonal, serialist-oriented style,
so there is a lot less "justness" in evidence . . .

Christopher Bailey wrote:

Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think this is something positive, something
to aim for in microtonality in general. The feeling that your whole sense of pitch-world is being
warped. I get that from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul Erlich's TIBIA, and many others.
That's a sensation to treasure in my opinion.

I find this interesting as we have just had the contrary opinion that JI music can be calming. I
also find this encouraging as it would be a dull world indeed if we all responded in the same way
to a given idiom.

Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40933.html#40933

>
>
> > I mentioned to her that I think it *is*
possible to excellently perform microtonal works, and cited the
performance of the Ben Johnston quartets, which she had not heard.
She expressed an interest in them...
> >
> > Maybe I'll just send her a copy of a couple
of the Ben Johnston quartets to get a reaction...
> >
> > She'll probably just say they sound "out of
tune..."
> >
>
> Well, to be honest, if you're talking about the old CRI
recordings of those pieces, they *do* sound "out of tune" for the
most part. Now, it could be that my ears aren't "attuned" enough to
JI to know the difference, but I think that JI has a "sound"---a
kind of "buzz" or "purr" to it

***Hello Chris,

Thanks for your comments here. Quite frankly, I wasn't even aware
that these pieces are out on CRI. I wonder if they're still
available? (most of CRI's stuff stays in production I believe). No,
I got a recording of all the quartets from Johnston himself, and I'm
not having such problems. I wonder if these are different
performances...

The question about performance is somewhat complicated by the fact
that Johnston doesn't mention who the performers are on the CD...

(Haven't *I* also done the same thing as a composer?? Not a good
practice, though...)

Certainly, I agree about the peculiar JI "purr..."

> Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think
this is something positive, something to aim for in microtonality in
general. The feeling that your whole sense of pitch-world is being
warped. I get that from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul
Erlich's TIBIA, and many others. That's a sensation to treasure in
my opinion.
>

****Thanks, Chris, for mentioning this, and it's also one of the
reasons *I'm* interested in microtonality. I like the change
into "new sound worlds"... without getting too emblematic...

I guess I shouldn't fault the NY Philharmonic violinist so much. The
more I thought about it, I'm beginning to realize that probably in
order to get a job with the Philharmonic, a person has to be a
neurotic about traditional Western pitch practices, as well as with
the traditional *dramatic* nature of Western music. I think that
organ, per se, is emblematic of these practices.

Therefore, it's not surprising that some, if not all, of the
musicians would be like this. It's not just the microtonality, by
the way, that concerns me, but the insistence on the kind
of "knock 'em out, slam bam" dramatic style of particularly Western
composition that it implies. Believe me, I could certainly write
such a work, and probably one that would please this person.
However, it would be almost a *parody*... certainly not what I'm
interested in doing now and, from my present point of view, more like
a "student" work. I'm not very interested in this, of course...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
>
> Christopher Bailey wrote:
>
> Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think this
>is something positive, something
> to aim for in microtonality in general. The feeling that your
>whole sense of pitch-world is being
> warped. I get that from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul
>Erlich's TIBIA, and many others.
> That's a sensation to treasure in my opinion.
>
> I find this interesting as we have just had the contrary opinion
>that JI music can be calming.

alison, i think the consensus seems to be that it's the individual
sonorities of ji that may be calming, while it's the unfamiliar
melodic intervals and chord progressions of a new tuning
system, whether one is moving from a long period of immersion
in 12-equal to some alternative *or even vice versa*, that can
induce "vertigo" (you may have missed the posts that originated
the latter thread). so i don't think there's any contradiction here.

> I
> also find this encouraging as it would be a dull world indeed if
>we all responded in the same way
> to a given idiom.

agreed, though i don't think the quote above presents an
example of this.

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Christopher Bailey wrote:
> >
> > Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think this
> >is something positive, something
> > to aim for in microtonality in general. The feeling that your
> >whole sense of pitch-world is being
> > warped. I get that from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul
> >Erlich's TIBIA, and many others.
> > That's a sensation to treasure in my opinion.
> >
> > I find this interesting as we have just had the contrary opinion
> >that JI music can be calming.
>
> alison, i think the consensus seems to be that it's the individual
> sonorities of ji that may be calming, while it's the unfamiliar
> melodic intervals and chord progressions of a new tuning
> system, whether one is moving from a long period of immersion
> in 12-equal to some alternative *or even vice versa*, that can
> induce "vertigo" (you may have missed the posts that originated
> the latter thread). so i don't think there's any contradiction here.

I can see that 'vertigo' can be produced as a result of the abrupt change from 12 tet to a JI
tuning or vice-versa I didn't pick up this implication in the quote from Christopher above
though I might have missed it. But in Kyle's reply to Julia of 16 Nov he clearly says that he
found the transition from 12tet to JI to be calming. I find these two viewpoints, if I'm correct
in my understanding of them, to be contradictory, which is fine by me.

BTW have you received the Tavener score I sent?

Kind Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Christopher Bailey wrote:
> > >
> > > Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think this
> > >is something positive, something
> > > to aim for in microtonality in general. The feeling that your
> > >whole sense of pitch-world is being
> > > warped. I get that from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul
> > >Erlich's TIBIA, and many others.
> > > That's a sensation to treasure in my opinion.
> > >
> > > I find this interesting as we have just had the contrary opinion
> > >that JI music can be calming.
> >
> > alison, i think the consensus seems to be that it's the individual
> > sonorities of ji that may be calming, while it's the unfamiliar
> > melodic intervals and chord progressions of a new tuning
> > system, whether one is moving from a long period of immersion
> > in 12-equal to some alternative *or even vice versa*, that can
> > induce "vertigo" (you may have missed the posts that originated
> > the latter thread). so i don't think there's any contradiction
here.
>
> I can see that 'vertigo' can be produced as a result of the abrupt
>change from 12 tet to a JI
> tuning or vice-versa I didn't pick up this implication in the
>quote from Christopher above
> though I might have missed it.

well, chris was referring to my mention of "seasickness", which was
certainly tied to this implication . . . so i think that's what chris
meant by it as well. in the examples he gave, the sensation is likely
produced by the chord progressions doing things so foreign to 12-
equal behavior, that one's innards are tied in knots as one tries to
orient oneself in the unfamiliar tonal space. note that one of the
pieces chris referred to was not in ji at all!

> But in Kyle's reply to Julia of 16 Nov he clearly says that he
> found the transition from 12tet to JI to be calming.

this was in a different context, i believe, with different kinds of
music being considered and compared. for example, kyle brought up
some beethoven piano music . . . if one makes a direct comparison
between a passage played in 12-equal vs. one played in an otherwise
similar tuning in which the intervals tend to be much closer to just
intonation, then "seasickness" really has no chance to come into
play -- the tonal "geometry" is really the same in both cases, and no
one's categorical perception of pitches or intervals is being pushed
very hard at all -- while the slower beats and cleaner combinational
spectra of the near-just version will give it a more "calming"
character relative to the 12-equal version.

> I find these two viewpoints, if I'm correct
> in my understanding of them, to be contradictory, which is fine by
> me.

i see absolutely no contradiction, either implied or potential,
between these observations.

> BTW have you received the Tavener score I sent?

not yet . . . i will check my mail today . . .

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
> >
> > > --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Christopher Bailey wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Incidentally, Paul ERlich mentioned "seasickness." I think this
> > > >is something positive, something
> > > > to aim for in microtonality in general. The feeling that your
> > > >whole sense of pitch-world is being
> > > > warped. I get that from Ben Johnston's 8th, in MIDI, and Paul
> > > >Erlich's TIBIA, and many others.
> > > > That's a sensation to treasure in my opinion.
> > > >
> > > > I find this interesting as we have just had the contrary opinion
> > > >that JI music can be calming.
> > >
> > > alison, i think the consensus seems to be that it's the individual
> > > sonorities of ji that may be calming, while it's the unfamiliar
> > > melodic intervals and chord progressions of a new tuning
> > > system, whether one is moving from a long period of immersion
> > > in 12-equal to some alternative *or even vice versa*, that can
> > > induce "vertigo" (you may have missed the posts that originated
> > > the latter thread). so i don't think there's any contradiction
> here.
> >
> > I can see that 'vertigo' can be produced as a result of the abrupt
> >change from 12 tet to a JI
> > tuning or vice-versa I didn't pick up this implication in the
> >quote from Christopher above
> > though I might have missed it.
>
> well, chris was referring to my mention of "seasickness", which was
> certainly tied to this implication . . . so i think that's what chris
> meant by it as well. in the examples he gave, the sensation is likely
> produced by the chord progressions doing things so foreign to 12-
> equal behavior, that one's innards are tied in knots as one tries to
> orient oneself in the unfamiliar tonal space. note that one of the
> pieces chris referred to was not in ji at all!
>
> > But in Kyle's reply to Julia of 16 Nov he clearly says that he
> > found the transition from 12tet to JI to be calming.
>
> this was in a different context, i believe, with different kinds of
> music being considered and compared. for example, kyle brought up
> some beethoven piano music . . . if one makes a direct comparison
> between a passage played in 12-equal vs. one played in an otherwise
> similar tuning in which the intervals tend to be much closer to just
> intonation, then "seasickness" really has no chance to come into
> play -- the tonal "geometry" is really the same in both cases, and no
> one's categorical perception of pitches or intervals is being pushed
> very hard at all -- while the slower beats and cleaner combinational
> spectra of the near-just version will give it a more "calming"
> character relative to the 12-equal version.
>
> > I find these two viewpoints, if I'm correct
> > in my understanding of them, to be contradictory, which is fine by
> > me.
>
> i see absolutely no contradiction, either implied or potential,
> between these observations.

And there we disagree it seems, unless the originators sort it out. I'm not too attached to this
one way or the other. I would hope however that you're not suggesting that there is some
scientific rationale behind an individual listener's reaction to changes in temperament.

Kind Regards
a.m.

>

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

> And there we disagree it seems, unless the originators sort it out.
>I'm not too attached to this
> one way or the other. I would hope however that you're not
>suggesting that there is some
> scientific rationale behind an individual listener's reaction to
>changes in temperament.

i don't know what that would mean. chris however has responded that
he himself experiences both aspects of this "contradiction". if kyle
responds similarly, as i suspect he would, then there would be no
basis for claiming that these two individuals react any differently
given the same set of stimuli. not to suggest that we're all the
same, just that there might be a little more sameness than you're
recognizing in this case. it seems that your take on this is a bit
too narrow, as if you'd like to pin a single descriptive adjective on
all just intonation phenomena, when in fact the phenomena kyle and
chris were referring to were completely different musical scenarios,
with only the most tenuous of commonalities between them.

p.s. thanks for the taverner score, and i agree 100% with the opinion
you scrawled on the back.

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40933.html#41019

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > And there we disagree it seems, unless the originators sort it
out.
> >I'm not too attached to this
> > one way or the other. I would hope however that you're not
> >suggesting that there is some
> > scientific rationale behind an individual listener's reaction to
> >changes in temperament.
>
> i don't know what that would mean. chris however has responded that
> he himself experiences both aspects of this "contradiction". if
kyle
> responds similarly, as i suspect he would, then there would be no
> basis for claiming that these two individuals react any differently
> given the same set of stimuli. not to suggest that we're all the
> same, just that there might be a little more sameness than you're
> recognizing in this case. it seems that your take on this is a bit
> too narrow, as if you'd like to pin a single descriptive adjective
on
> all just intonation phenomena, when in fact the phenomena kyle and
> chris were referring to were completely different musical
scenarios,
> with only the most tenuous of commonalities between them.
>
> p.s. thanks for the taverner score, and i agree 100% with the
opinion
> you scrawled on the back.

***Personally, I believe there is probably a lot more commonality
between listeners than one might initially think, even between
the "tutored" and the "untutored..." Probably some of this could be
the subject of a scientific study (well, some already has, I'm sure!)

The point is that certain aspects of consonance have a definite
emotional resonance. Maybe that's cultural, too, but I believe it
spans the gamut between the seasoned and less seasoned listeners:
the main difference being that the "atonal enthusiast" listeners
don't want to admit it or "indulge" it...

J. Pehrson

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > And there we disagree it seems, unless the originators sort it out.
> >I'm not too attached to this
> > one way or the other. I would hope however that you're not
> >suggesting that there is some
> > scientific rationale behind an individual listener's reaction to
> >changes in temperament.
>
> i don't know what that would mean.

It means that in the light of your previous explanation about beating/lack of beating in 12 tet/JI
respectively there is the chance that one might think you are proposing that these facts lead to
specific responses in people listening to the music. Of course I don't think you mean this but the
implication is there.

> chris however has responded that
> he himself experiences both aspects of this "contradiction". if kyle
> responds similarly, as i suspect he would, then there would be no
> basis for claiming that these two individuals react any differently
> given the same set of stimuli. not to suggest that we're all the
> same, just that there might be a little more sameness than you're
> recognizing in this case. it seems that your take on this is a bit
> too narrow, as if you'd like to pin a single descriptive adjective on
> all just intonation phenomena, when in fact the phenomena kyle and
> chris were referring to were completely different musical scenarios,
> with only the most tenuous of commonalities between them.

Actually I'm the one who has a broad take on things in that I believe there are many responses to
the same musical performance. In my own case I find some of Partch's music restless and some of
Part's music restful, some of my own JI music restful and some serial 12 tet music restless. I
certainly wouldn't like to pin a single descriptive adjective to all JI phenomena. (did I suggest
that?)

>
> p.s. thanks for the taverner score, and i agree 100% with the opinion
> you scrawled on the back.

Good - at least we agree on something : -) I look forward to your comments.

BTW - John Taverner (with an 'r') circa1495 -1545 - English organist and composer.
John Tavener (without an 'r') 1944 - ? English organist and composer. Claims he is
related to the above.

Kind Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
>
> wallyesterpaulrus wrote:
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
> >
> > > And there we disagree it seems, unless the originators sort it
out.
> > >I'm not too attached to this
> > > one way or the other. I would hope however that you're not
> > >suggesting that there is some
> > > scientific rationale behind an individual listener's reaction to
> > >changes in temperament.
> >
> > i don't know what that would mean.
>
> It means that in the light of your previous explanation about
beating/lack of beating in 12 tet/JI
> respectively there is the chance that one might think you are
proposing that these facts lead to
> specific responses in people listening to the music. Of course I
don't think you mean this but the
> implication is there.

i do think there are specific responses. way too many people have
expressed the same reaction as kyle for this to be purely subjective.
and what chris was talking about, which was *not* specifically about
ji (and not at all about simple 12-tone or adaptive low-limit ji) but
about any system which severely distorts the categorical perceptions
of 12-equal-immersed listeners, also seems to be a very common
reaction among the musically inclined. personally, both reactions
resonate very strongly with my own experiences, and my best guess is
that others who share the same cultural and physiological makeup will
have similar responses on a better-than-chance level.

> > chris however has responded that
> > he himself experiences both aspects of this "contradiction". if
kyle
> > responds similarly, as i suspect he would, then there would be no
> > basis for claiming that these two individuals react any
differently
> > given the same set of stimuli. not to suggest that we're all the
> > same, just that there might be a little more sameness than you're
> > recognizing in this case. it seems that your take on this is a bit
> > too narrow, as if you'd like to pin a single descriptive
adjective on
> > all just intonation phenomena, when in fact the phenomena kyle and
> > chris were referring to were completely different musical
scenarios,
> > with only the most tenuous of commonalities between them.
>
> Actually I'm the one who has a broad take on things in that I
>believe there are many responses to
> the same musical performance.

your take on *that* may be "broader", but your take on the kyle/chris
question seems to throw away the specific contexts they were
referring to, and i don't know why you would do that.

> In my own case I find some of Partch's music restless and some of
> Part's music restful, some of my own JI music restful and some
serial 12 tet music restless. I
> certainly wouldn't like to pin a single descriptive adjective to
all JI phenomena. (did I suggest
> that?)

well then i don't know why you would see a contradiction between
kyle's reaction and chris's reaction. they were talking about
completely different things.

> > p.s. thanks for the taverner score, and i agree 100% with the
opinion
> > you scrawled on the back.
>
> Good - at least we agree on something : -) I look forward to your
comments.

well, the beginning looks like adaptive ji, say vicentino's, would
work great. the parts in contrary motion have all their intervals
coming from the whole-tone scale, so no fifths, fourths, minor
thirds, or major sixths. thus the adaptive tuning collapses to
meantone, with 25:16 for those delicious augmented fifths . . .