Eastern scales frequencies

I was wondering if any of you could help me out. i am in a class
at the university of colorado called the physics of sound and
music. i am working on an extra credit project of building my
own flute. the trick i have to have it tuned to some time of eastern
music scale. i have a website that tells me how to tune it to
western majors scales but i cant find anything on the web that
tells me the frequencies for eastern scales. if any of you could
help me out that would be great! thank you for your time

Devon

--- In tuning@y..., "Devon " <flutterbi27@y...> wrote:
> I was wondering if any of you could help me out. i am in a class
> at the university of colorado called the physics of sound and
> music. i am working on an extra credit project of building my
> own flute. the trick i have to have it tuned to some time of
eastern
> music scale. i have a website that tells me how to tune it to
> western majors scales but i cant find anything on the web that
> tells me the frequencies for eastern scales. if any of you could
> help me out that would be great! thank you for your time
>
>
> Devon

if you show us the website you're looking at, i'm sure we can easily
tell you how to modify its instructions. there are plenty of sources
of eastern scales out there, but normally you have to convert from
cents to frequency (by choosing a base frequency, which is arbitrary
in general, but may be determined by the length of your flute, etc.)

-paul

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> if you show us the website you're looking at, i'm sure we can easily
> tell you how to modify its instructions. there are plenty of sources
> of eastern scales out there, but normally you have to convert from
> cents to frequency (by choosing a base frequency, which is arbitrary
> in general, but may be determined by the length of your flute, etc.)

He might try tuning it to 9-et and calling it eastern. Who's to say it isn't?

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > if you show us the website you're looking at, i'm sure we can
easily
> > tell you how to modify its instructions. there are plenty of
sources
> > of eastern scales out there, but normally you have to convert
from
> > cents to frequency (by choosing a base frequency, which is
arbitrary
> > in general, but may be determined by the length of your flute,
etc.)
>
> He might try tuning it to 9-et and calling it eastern. Who's to say
>it isn't?

9-equal's pelog scale sounds close enough to bali for most western
ears . . . meanwhile its augmented scale is a genuinely xenharmonic
effect no matter where you come from, and a super-cool one at that!

--- In tuning@y..., "Devon " <flutterbi27@y...> wrote:
> I was wondering if any of you could help me out. i am in a class
> at the university of colorado called the physics of sound and
> music. i am working on an extra credit project of building my
> own flute. the trick i have to have it tuned to some time of
eastern
> music scale. i have a website that tells me how to tune it to
> western majors scales but i cant find anything on the web that
> tells me the frequencies for eastern scales. if any of you could
> help me out that would be great! thank you for your time
>
>
> Devon

To keep it simple you would probably want a scale with just 7 tones
in the octave. Otherwise you would have to use some cross-fingerings
to get some of the tones.

I would suggest a Siamese scale, which is essentially an octave
divided equally in 7 parts. Once you select a starting frequency,
then multiply it successively by the 1/7th root of 2 to get the
others:

1.00000
1.10409 = 2^(1/7)
1.21901 = 2^(2/7)
1.34590 etc.
1.48599
1.64067
1.81145
2.00000

--George Secor

--- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:

> Once you select a starting frequency,
> then multiply it successively by the 1/7th root of 2 to get the
> others:

just to be nabobbly: the 1/7th root of 2 is 128. you really mean the
7th root of 2, or 2^(1/7), as you made clear below:

> 1.00000
> 1.10409 = 2^(1/7)
> 1.21901 = 2^(2/7)
> 1.34590 etc.
> 1.48599
> 1.64067
> 1.81145
> 2.00000

note that traditional, authentic ("Siamese") music in this scale is
based on pentatonic subsets (omitting any two of the notes a "fourth"
or "fifth" apart), which can be modulated to any of the 7 pitch
levels while maintaining the same melodic structure (i think mainly
only 4 of these pitch levels are used in Thai practice).

> if you show us the website you're looking at, i'm sure we can easily
> tell you how to modify its instructions. there are plenty of sources
> of eastern scales out there, but normally you have to convert from
> cents to frequency (by choosing a base frequency, which is arbitrary
> in general, but may be determined by the length of your flute, etc.)
>
> -paul

this is the website. thanks paul!

Devon

http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/fingers.html

--- In tuning@y..., "Devon " <flutterbi27@y...> wrote:
> > if you show us the website you're looking at, i'm sure we can
easily
> > tell you how to modify its instructions. there are plenty of
sources
> > of eastern scales out there, but normally you have to convert
from
> > cents to frequency (by choosing a base frequency, which is
arbitrary
> > in general, but may be determined by the length of your flute,
etc.)
> >
> > -paul
>
> this is the website. thanks paul!
>
> Devon
>
> http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/fingers.html

that's a cool site, but please don't get me started on the western
major scale! :) the rest of it seems fine, though . . . maybe if i
have time next week, i'll try to implement the computer program in
Matlab and we can plan out a whole array of eastern-scale flutes for
ya . . .

> Hello Devon!

we keep an ongoing depository of such things here
http://www.anaphoria.com/depos.html
of which some should be useful to you

>
> From: "Devon " <flutterbi27@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Eastern scales frequencies
>
> I was wondering if any of you could help me out. i am in a class
> at the university of colorado called the physics of sound and
> music. i am working on an extra credit project of building my
> own flute. the trick i have to have it tuned to some time of eastern
> music scale. i have a website that tells me how to tune it to
> western majors scales but i cant find anything on the web that
> tells me the frequencies for eastern scales. if any of you could
> help me out that would be great! thank you for your time
>
> Devon
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

-
>
> that's a cool site, but please don't get me started on the western
> major scale! :) the rest of it seems fine, though . . . maybe if i
> have time next week, i'll try to implement the computer program in
> Matlab and we can plan out a whole array of eastern-scale flutes for
> ya . . .

that would be awesome! thank you!

Devon

just wondering if you have had time for that? :)

Devon

--- In tuning@y..., "Devon " <flutterbi27@y...> wrote:
> -
> >
> > that's a cool site, but please don't get me started on the western
> > major scale! :) the rest of it seems fine, though . . . maybe if i
> > have time next week, i'll try to implement the computer program in
> > Matlab and we can plan out a whole array of eastern-scale flutes for
> > ya . . .
>
>
>
> that would be awesome! thank you!
>
> Devon

--- In tuning@y..., "Devon " <flutterbi27@y...> wrote:
> just wondering if you have had time for that? :)
>
> Devon

you know what, my matlab box got caught up with work stuff, and
calculating harmonic entropy curves for alison and george, but it's
next on my agenda :)

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> you know what, my matlab box got caught up with work stuff, and
> calculating harmonic entropy curves for alison and george, but it's
> next on my agenda :)

I'm still waiting for the dual 5-limit diagram.

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > you know what, my matlab box got caught up with work stuff, and
> > calculating harmonic entropy curves for alison and george, but
it's
> > next on my agenda :)
>
> I'm still waiting for the dual 5-limit diagram.

coming right up!

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > you know what, my matlab box got caught up with work stuff, and
> > calculating harmonic entropy curves for alison and george, but
it's
> > next on my agenda :)
>
> I'm still waiting for the dual 5-limit diagram.

here it is, zooming further and further out:

/tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomer.gif
/tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomet.gif
/tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomev.gif
/tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomex.gif
/tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomez.gif

recall that the further a line is from the center, the more accurate
are the 5-limit approximations of the corresponding ET.

on the last graph, we see that the monzisma vanishes in 53, 559, and
612. it also vanishes in some much more accurate ETs, since virtually
any line through the monzisma stays further from the center than any
of these. 1171 and 1783 are examples of highly accurate monzismic ETs.

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> here it is, zooming further and further out:

Awsome, especially placed in conjunction with the original zoomer series. I see you've come up with some new comma names for this project.

Plus, it's a great illustration of projective geometry!

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > here it is, zooming further and further out:
>
> Awsome, especially placed in conjunction with the original zoomer
>series. I see you've come up with some new comma names for this
>project.

don't take those seriously. i was just in a hurry to get it done (and
it took a few hours, while i should have been asleep) so i used the
first words that came into my head. which is a great way to expand
your vocabulary ("shibboleth" turned out quite apropos).
>
> Plus, it's a great illustration of projective geometry!

i guess i know nothing about that. oh yeah, i did the grid lines
wrong, they should really be perpendicular to the axes in this case,
not parallel to them . . .

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40886.html#41149

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > you know what, my matlab box got caught up with work stuff, and
> > > calculating harmonic entropy curves for alison and george, but
> it's
> > > next on my agenda :)
> >
> > I'm still waiting for the dual 5-limit diagram.
>
> here it is, zooming further and further out:
>
> /tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomer.gif
> /tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomet.gif
> /tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomev.gif
> /tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomex.gif
> /tuning-math/files/Paul/dualzoomez.gif
>

***These are really great, but some of the scale terms I don't
recognize. Are some of these terms coming out of the Tuning Math
list, or did they exist before...??

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40886.html#41165

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> wrote:
> >
> > > here it is, zooming further and further out:
> >
> > Awsome, especially placed in conjunction with the original zoomer
> >series. I see you've come up with some new comma names for this
> >project.
>
> don't take those seriously. i was just in a hurry to get it done
(and
> it took a few hours, while i should have been asleep) so i used the
> first words that came into my head. which is a great way to expand
> your vocabulary ("shibboleth" turned out quite apropos).
> >
> > Plus, it's a great illustration of projective geometry!
>
> i guess i know nothing about that. oh yeah, i did the grid lines
> wrong, they should really be perpendicular to the axes in this
case,
> not parallel to them . . .

***Sorry, Paul. I realize now these are *comma* names, rather than
*scale* names. I guess in some instances the scales have been named
after a particular comma, since I believe there are few that have the
name in common. (Comma-n??) I could be wrong.

Thanks!

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
>
> /tuning/topicId_40886.html#41149
>
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > > --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus"
<wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > you know what, my matlab box got caught up with work stuff,
and
> > > > calculating harmonic entropy curves for alison and george,
but
> > it's
> > > > next on my agenda :)
> > >
> > > I'm still waiting for the dual 5-limit diagram.
> >
> > here it is, zooming further and further out:
> >
> > /tuning-
math/files/Paul/dualzoomer.gif
> > /tuning-
math/files/Paul/dualzoomet.gif
> > /tuning-
math/files/Paul/dualzoomev.gif
> > /tuning-
math/files/Paul/dualzoomex.gif
> > /tuning-
math/files/Paul/dualzoomez.gif
> >
>
> ***These are really great, but some of the scale terms I don't
> recognize. Are some of these terms coming out of the Tuning Math
> list, or did they exist before...??
>
> J. Pehrson

a few of them are coming from tuning-math, while quite a few more are
coming straight out of my @$$ . . .

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***Sorry, Paul. I realize now these are *comma* names, rather than
> *scale* names.

really, they are *temperament* names -- for example, meantone. that
corresponds to the syntonic comma. aristoxenean corresponds to the
pythagorean comma. etc. in many cases, the temperament is simply
named after the corresponding comma -- "schismic", "diaschismic", etc.

> I guess in some instances the scales have been named
> after a particular comma,

oh, so you do get it.

> since I believe there are few that have the
> name in common.

huh?

> (Comma-n??)

what?

> I could be wrong.

i don't know if you're right or wrong, 'cuz i don't know what you're
saying. can you clarify?

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40886.html#41194

>
> i don't know if you're right or wrong, 'cuz i don't know what
you're saying. can you clarify?

***So, basically the vertices of these diagrams are the variously
named *commas*... some of them just newly invented by you, correct??
In some instances, though, such as "Porcupine" the terms apply to a
group of scales that have, apparently, the elimination of
the "Porcupine" comma in commo-n (that's where the "n" came from,
although it looks like something wonderfully mathematical...)

Just as, I assume, the elimination of the "miracle" comma would
define a class of "miracle" scales.

Now, how far off am I on this? I'd better be corrected fast, if this
is "wacko..." :)

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
>
> /tuning/topicId_40886.html#41194
>
> >
> > i don't know if you're right or wrong, 'cuz i don't know what
> you're saying. can you clarify?
>
>
> ***So, basically the vertices of these diagrams are the variously
> named *commas*... some of them just newly invented by you,
correct??
> In some instances, though, such as "Porcupine" the terms apply to a
> group of scales that have, apparently, the elimination of
> the "Porcupine" comma in commo-n (that's where the "n" came from,
> although it looks like something wonderfully mathematical...)

oh, i see. well, this is true in all instances, not just some of
them. for example, "meantone" on this graph is the point of
intersection of the lines corresponding to all ETs where the syntonic
comma is eliminated . . . etc.

at least, i think i'm understanding you . . .

> Just as, I assume, the elimination of the "miracle" comma would
> define a class of "miracle" scales.

the term we use for "miracle" in this 5-limit world is "ampersand",
since apparently paul rapoport noticed the corresponding 5-limit
comma and named it after his cat.

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40886.html#41199

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
> >
> > /tuning/topicId_40886.html#41194
> >
> > >
> > > i don't know if you're right or wrong, 'cuz i don't know what
> > you're saying. can you clarify?
> >
> >
> > ***So, basically the vertices of these diagrams are the variously
> > named *commas*... some of them just newly invented by you,
> correct??
> > In some instances, though, such as "Porcupine" the terms apply to
a
> > group of scales that have, apparently, the elimination of
> > the "Porcupine" comma in commo-n (that's where the "n" came from,
> > although it looks like something wonderfully mathematical...)
>
> oh, i see. well, this is true in all instances, not just some of
> them. for example, "meantone" on this graph is the point of
> intersection of the lines corresponding to all ETs where the
syntonic
> comma is eliminated . . . etc.
>
> at least, i think i'm understanding you . . .
>
> > Just as, I assume, the elimination of the "miracle" comma would
> > define a class of "miracle" scales.
>
> the term we use for "miracle" in this 5-limit world is "ampersand",
> since apparently paul rapoport noticed the corresponding 5-limit
> comma and named it after his cat.

***Thanks, Paul. Seems I was on the right track... I think I'm
getting a glimmer of this now. That last term is funny... Monz
better make sure all of these are in the dictionary, if they have
been consensus...

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***Thanks, Paul. Seems I was on the right track... I think I'm
> getting a glimmer of this now. That last term is funny... Monz
> better make sure all of these are in the dictionary, if they have
> been consensus...

well, this is getting a bit close to the category of "telling monz
what to do", but i notice that some of these terms, at
least "aristoxenean", *do* have dictionary entries

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/aristox.htm

but are not listed in the dictionary *index* -- you can find a link
to it, and an explanation of "ampersand", under

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/eqtemp.htm

and more on ampersand is under 31 and 41 here:

http://sonic-arts.org/dict/bingo.htm

> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:54 PM
> Subject: [tuning] Re: for gene and monz: the dual 5-limit diagram
>
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > ***Thanks, Paul. Seems I was on the right track... I think I'm
> > getting a glimmer of this now. That last term is funny... Monz
> > better make sure all of these are in the dictionary, if they have
> > been consensus...
>
> well, this is getting a bit close to the category of "telling monz
> what to do", but i notice that some of these terms, at
> least "aristoxenean", *do* have dictionary entries
>
> http://sonic-arts.org/dict/aristox.htm
>
> but are not listed in the dictionary *index*

thanks for that, paul. i'm finding that i've added quite a
few new definition entries but never put links to them on the
index page.

eventually, i hope to include separate entries for each of
these vanishing commas.

- monz