composing dilemma (microtonality)

Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last night,
Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
contemporary music.

She is interested in having me write a new string quartet, but when I
asked her if she was interested at all in microtonality, her response
was "not at all..."

Then I heard the traditional complaints citing the difficulty of
correct intonation in general, and the fact she believes that
microtonal works are *never* well performed, or if they are the
audience thinks they are "out of tune..."

So, now my dilemma is whether even to bother writing the kind of
obviously "traditional/dramatic" piece that she would like or just
forget about it.

Since my *own* personal style varies quite a bit, it probably *would*
be possible to write such a piece, but I don't know if I'm "into"
it...

I mentioned to her that I think it *is* possible to excellently
perform microtonal works, and cited the performance of the Ben
Johnston quartets, which she had not heard. She expressed an
interest in them...

Maybe I'll just send her a copy of a couple of the Ben Johnston
quartets to get a reaction...

She'll probably just say they sound "out of tune..." :)

J. Pehrson

why not write for a fairly simple set of pitches and have the string players
put whiteout dots on their fingerboards (using an electronic tuner to
generate the pitches for them) to help them find the notes?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph Pehrson [mailto:jpehrson@rcn.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 10:48 AM
> To: tuning@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [tuning] composing dilemma (microtonality)
>
>
> Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last night,
> Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> contemporary music.
>
> She is interested in having me write a new string quartet, but when I
> asked her if she was interested at all in microtonality, her response
> was "not at all..."
>
> Then I heard the traditional complaints citing the difficulty of
> correct intonation in general, and the fact she believes that
> microtonal works are *never* well performed, or if they are the
> audience thinks they are "out of tune..."
>
> So, now my dilemma is whether even to bother writing the kind of
> obviously "traditional/dramatic" piece that she would like or just
> forget about it.
>
> Since my *own* personal style varies quite a bit, it probably *would*
> be possible to write such a piece, but I don't know if I'm "into"
> it...
>
> I mentioned to her that I think it *is* possible to excellently
> perform microtonal works, and cited the performance of the Ben
> Johnston quartets, which she had not heard. She expressed an
> interest in them...
>
> Maybe I'll just send her a copy of a couple of the Ben Johnston
> quartets to get a reaction...
>
> She'll probably just say they sound "out of tune..." :)
>
> J. Pehrson
>
>
>
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--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40858

> Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last
night,
> Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> contemporary music.
>

***Oh... I forgot to mention that this person plays with the New York
Philharmonic. That slipped my mind...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Dante Rosati" <dante.interport@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40859

> why not write for a fairly simple set of pitches and have the
string players put whiteout dots on their fingerboards (using an
electronic tuner to generate the pitches for them) to help them find
the notes?
>

***Thanks, Dante, for the suggestion... I suppose there would be no
way they could assert that their microtonality was "inaccurate" in
this case...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40860

> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_40858.html#40858
>
> > Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last
> night,
> > Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> > traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> > contemporary music.
> >
>
> ***Oh... I forgot to mention that this person plays with the New
York
> Philharmonic. That slipped my mind...
>
> J. Pehrson

***Just to continue this discussion a bit: although this may be
a "MakeMicroMusic" topic, except for the fact that I won't get much
discussion, since not so many people go over there:

I'm feeling this individual really just wants a "slam bam, knock it
out, dramatic, thank you sir" new music piece. I feel really
*constrained* by somebody who is so *negative* about microtonality.
She was even complaining about Schnittke and about "special effects"
in pieces.

I'm thinking there might be one word for the kind of piece she wants
in my current way of thinking... : *boooorrrrrinnnnnggggg..."

JP

Joseph wrote:

>So, now my dilemma is whether even to bother writing the kind of
>obviously "traditional/dramatic" piece that she would like or just
>forget about it.

How about a "traditional/dramatic/microtonal" work then? They're
not mutually exclusive.
Perhaps she'd like to hear the fragments of Badings' 4th quartet on
the Huygens-Fokker site.
(Sometime I'll need to redo them with a newer mp3-encoder, which I've
done with the other fragments, and gives a substantial improvement
to the sound.)

Manuel

In a message dated 11/14/02 11:27:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

> I'm feeling this individual really just wants a "slam bam, knock it
> out, dramatic, thank you sir" new music piece. I feel really
> *constrained* by somebody who is so *negative* about microtonality.
> She was even complaining about Schnittke and about "special effects"
> in pieces.
>
> I'm thinking there might be one word for the kind of piece she wants
> in my current way of thinking... : *boooorrrrrinnnnnggggg..."
>
> JP

Folks, I think Joseph is getting gloomy again. Of course, I was at the
concert Joseph is talking about. He had almost a whole evening of microtonal
musicians and he is centering on the single point of resistance. Besides the
trombone, cello, and bassoon, there was another violinist with much more
microtonal potential. I could hear it in her sound.

The NYPhilharmonic violinist is also an old friend of mine. We met in
Tatarstan and traveled together. She is mind set into a certain kind of
playing, a playing that has its credentials. There are no credentials to her
in playing microtonal music. The audience could be banging chairs and she
would play on. Her group is really classically fixated. That is not a
reason for despair, Joe, not when there are so many others that enjoy playing
microtonally.

best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40866

> Joseph wrote:
>
> >So, now my dilemma is whether even to bother writing the kind of
> >obviously "traditional/dramatic" piece that she would like or just
> >forget about it.
>
> How about a "traditional/dramatic/microtonal" work then? They're
> not mutually exclusive.
> Perhaps she'd like to hear the fragments of Badings' 4th quartet on
> the Huygens-Fokker site.
> (Sometime I'll need to redo them with a newer mp3-encoder, which
I've
> done with the other fragments, and gives a substantial improvement
> to the sound.)
>
> Manuel

***Hi Manuel,

Well, that's what I'm thinking, too! But, this individual is even
complaining about quartertones in Schnittke! It's a little crazy. I
don't know if somebody so set in this can be persuaded... but as we
all know, there is great microtonal music out there!

JP

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40867

> The NYPhilharmonic violinist is also an old friend of mine. We met
in
> Tatarstan and traveled together. She is mind set into a certain
kind of
> playing, a playing that has its credentials. There are no
credentials to her
> in playing microtonal music. The audience could be banging chairs
and she
> would play on. Her group is really classically fixated. That is
not a
> reason for despair, Joe, not when there are so many others that
enjoy playing
> microtonally.
>
> best, Johnny Reinhard

***Thanks, Johnny. Well that makes sense... it seems that maybe this
group is not one that I should be presently working with, at least
with my *current* interests... I don't know that a person with such
strong, traditional convictions can be "convinced" otherwise, or even
if it's worth the effort...

JP

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last
night,
> Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> contemporary music.
>
> She is interested in having me write a new string quartet, but when
I
> asked her if she was interested at all in microtonality, her
response
> was "not at all..."
>
> Then I heard the traditional complaints citing the difficulty of
> correct intonation in general, and the fact she believes that
> microtonal works are *never* well performed, or if they are the
> audience thinks they are "out of tune..."

This is an unfortunate misconception, as we are well aware that 9-
limit consonances are much better in tune in 72-ET than they are in
12. (I excluded ratios of 11 from that statement, because they're
foreign to 12 and therefore might be judged "out of tune" by a non-
microtonalist.)

--George

--- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40881

> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last
> night,
> > Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> > traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> > contemporary music.
> >
> > She is interested in having me write a new string quartet, but
when
> I
> > asked her if she was interested at all in microtonality, her
> response
> > was "not at all..."
> >
> > Then I heard the traditional complaints citing the difficulty of
> > correct intonation in general, and the fact she believes that
> > microtonal works are *never* well performed, or if they are the
> > audience thinks they are "out of tune..."
>
> This is an unfortunate misconception, as we are well aware that 9-
> limit consonances are much better in tune in 72-ET than they are in
> 12. (I excluded ratios of 11 from that statement, because they're
> foreign to 12 and therefore might be judged "out of tune" by a non-
> microtonalist.)
>
> --George

***Hello George,

Yes, unfortunately these sentiments are more prevalent than one would
wish. I have even encountered this kind of thinking among some
*composers...*

The idea, obviously, is that somehow 12-equal is "in tune" and
anything else is "out of tune...", with no understanding of the
tuning background.

Most of these people don't even understand that various scales are
even *attempting* to emulate the overtone series, so the notion of
pure consonance as an objective is lost on them.

And, many of these sentiments permeate our major conservatories. In
fact, I've been finding that the more "prestigious" the institution,
in the traditional sense, the more ingrained such thinking.

Ergo, everybody should just go to State junior colleges... (just
joking...)

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last
> night,
> > Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> > traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> > contemporary music.
> >
> > She is interested in having me write a new string quartet, but
when
> I
> > asked her if she was interested at all in microtonality, her
> response
> > was "not at all..."
> >
> > Then I heard the traditional complaints citing the difficulty of
> > correct intonation in general, and the fact she believes that
> > microtonal works are *never* well performed, or if they are the
> > audience thinks they are "out of tune..."
>
> This is an unfortunate misconception, as we are well aware that 9-
> limit consonances are much better in tune in 72-ET than they are in
> 12. (I excluded ratios of 11 from that statement, because they're
> foreign to 12 and therefore might be judged "out of tune" by a non-
> microtonalist.)
>
> --George

george,

the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of professional
musicians judge "in tune" according to the categorical perception
they've derived from experience, and not by any kind of just
intonation standards. melodic intervals especially will be heard as
in or out of tune based on cultural expectation. so your comment
above wouldn't really help to placate the performer in question, as
joseph's blackjack pieces, naturally, contain tons of melodic
intervals that deviate from the cultural norm -- and thus will
sound "out of tune" to any musician immersed in the 12-equal world.

were you around when we were talking about the "seasickness" effect
that alternate tunings give you? seems to be a fairly universal
phenomenon, and applies just as well to 12-equal if you've spent
enough time immersed in some other particular tuning system. oh yeah,
i remember now, you said that you only experienced this once or
something . . . oh well . . . i've experience this many, many times,
as i regularly go through long periods of 12-equal only performance
and listening, as well as decent periods of 22-tone only -- the
switch is always "nauseating" to some degree . . .

-paul

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

i've experience this many, many times,
> as i regularly go through long periods of 12-equal only performance
> and listening, as well as decent periods of 22-tone only -- the
> switch is always "nauseating" to some degree . . .

Is "polymicrotonality" different tuning systems in succession, or at once? The former I actually like.

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40858.html#40887

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> > > Well, we had quite an excellent violinist on our concert last
> > night,
> > > Juilliard trained. She has a string quartet and they do mostly
> > > traditional repertoire, but now they are adding *new* pieces of
> > > contemporary music.
> > >
> > > She is interested in having me write a new string quartet, but
> when
> > I
> > > asked her if she was interested at all in microtonality, her
> > response
> > > was "not at all..."
> > >
> > > Then I heard the traditional complaints citing the difficulty
of
> > > correct intonation in general, and the fact she believes that
> > > microtonal works are *never* well performed, or if they are the
> > > audience thinks they are "out of tune..."
> >
> > This is an unfortunate misconception, as we are well aware that 9-
> > limit consonances are much better in tune in 72-ET than they are
in
> > 12. (I excluded ratios of 11 from that statement, because
they're
> > foreign to 12 and therefore might be judged "out of tune" by a
non-
> > microtonalist.)
> >
> > --George
>
> george,
>
> the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of professional
> musicians judge "in tune" according to the categorical perception
> they've derived from experience, and not by any kind of just
> intonation standards. melodic intervals especially will be heard as
> in or out of tune based on cultural expectation. so your comment
> above wouldn't really help to placate the performer in question, as
> joseph's blackjack pieces, naturally, contain tons of melodic
> intervals that deviate from the cultural norm -- and thus will
> sound "out of tune" to any musician immersed in the 12-equal world.
>
> were you around when we were talking about the "seasickness" effect
> that alternate tunings give you? seems to be a fairly universal
> phenomenon, and applies just as well to 12-equal if you've spent
> enough time immersed in some other particular tuning system. oh
yeah,
> i remember now, you said that you only experienced this once or
> something . . . oh well . . . i've experience this many, many
times,
> as i regularly go through long periods of 12-equal only performance
> and listening, as well as decent periods of 22-tone only -- the
> switch is always "nauseating" to some degree . . .
>
> -paul

****Hi Paul!

Well, while I agree with the gist of what you say, I still don't
believe it's adequate justification for incurious performers who
don't want to try something new, or don't realize that styles of
music and global influences are changing things...

JP

Joseph Pehrson wrote:

> I'm feeling this individual really just wants a "slam bam, knock it
> out, dramatic, thank you sir" new music piece. I feel really
> *constrained* by somebody who is so *negative* about microtonality.
> She was even complaining about Schnittke and about "special effects"
> in pieces.
>
> I'm thinking there might be one word for the kind of piece she wants
> in my current way of thinking... : *boooorrrrrinnnnnggggg..."
>
> JP
>

Anyone who claims to be musical and complains about Schnittke needs their head examined IMHO. She
perhaps needs to look at the bigger picture.

Following on from the string quartet discussion, I take the view that it's best to compose the
piece and then find players. I'm keen to write one myself but am all too aware of the weight of
tradition and expectation. Why would a quartet want to play my piece when they can make a career
out of playing the music of three or four composers? If it was very very good, or perceived to be
by someone influential. Then the "dreaded" microtones could just be the last nail in the coffin.

Additionally there is the choice of system. I would want some way of producing four part harmony
and handling inversions and voce leading so that I could at least exploit one of the many
resources of a string quartet. I don't know what Joseph has in mind but I hope he shares his
pre-compositional ideas. I remember taking great pleasure out of working in three voices with
Blackjack in my sketches last year.

Because I have a real Eikosany instrument I'll probably work with the Eikosany. I don't believe it
would make much difference to the eventual players that some of the ratios are high numbered. But
first I'm keen to study some of the existing repertoire.

I'm having difficulty in tracking down Ben Johnston's quartets and scores, in fact I can't find
them anywhere. University libraries over here charge outside readers obscene amounts of money and
last time I checked Edinburgh didn't have them. I know they were knocking around the list last
year. If anyone can help I'd be grateful. Email privately if you prefer.

Kind Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

I remember taking great pleasure out of working in three voices with
> Blackjack in my sketches last year.

Anything suitable for Radio Free Blackjack on mp3.com?

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> I remember taking great pleasure out of working in three voices with
> > Blackjack in my sketches last year.
>
> Anything suitable for Radio Free Blackjack on mp3.com?

Nothing on tape I'm afraid, but I'm looking at my Blackjack sketches again and have decided to
finish off what I started. Might take a while but I'll keep y'all posted.

Kind Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> george,
>
> the fact of the matter is that the vast majority of professional
> musicians judge "in tune" according to the categorical perception
> they've derived from experience, and not by any kind of just
> intonation standards. melodic intervals especially will be heard as
> in or out of tune based on cultural expectation. so your comment
> above wouldn't really help to placate the performer in question, as
> joseph's blackjack pieces, naturally, contain tons of melodic
> intervals that deviate from the cultural norm -- and thus will
> sound "out of tune" to any musician immersed in the 12-equal world.
>
> were you around when we were talking about the "seasickness" effect
> that alternate tunings give you? seems to be a fairly universal
> phenomenon, and applies just as well to 12-equal if you've spent
> enough time immersed in some other particular tuning system. oh
yeah,
> i remember now, you said that you only experienced this once or
> something

Yes, I experienced disorientation just once, and only when RETURNING
TO 12-ET after spending several weeks exclusively in the meantone
temperament. Should we call this "alternate tuning disorientation"
(or ATD)?

> . . . oh well . . . i've experience this many, many times,
> as i regularly go through long periods of 12-equal only performance
> and listening, as well as decent periods of 22-tone only -- the
> switch is always "nauseating" to some degree . . .
>
> -paul

Even hearing Easley Blackwood's 13-to-24-ET pieces I never
experienced any disorientation, but why, I don't know -- I found that
hearing the small fifth-circles of 14, 15, 20, & 21 was a bit of fun,
something like an optical illusion in sound. Perhaps having absolute
pitch enables me to keep my bearings. (Before I thought that it
might have something to do with the fact that I change back and forth
from one tuning to another so frequently on the Scalatron, but now
I'm not so sure that's the reason.) I'm curious whether Blackwood
(who also has absolute pitch) ever experienced any disorientation
when he played them.

--George