re: everyone concerned

> > Gann writes that a 680-cent fifth sounds "scary."
>
> if this is indeed an overarching assessment, made without context,
> then this is certainly a piece of dogma i can't agree with. nor, i'm
> sure, would many just intonation practitioners -- kraig grady in
> particular loves to use this interval.

Pardon me for intruding at this late date to correct misapprehensions that have been drawn, not only from individual phrases taken out of context of my writings, but individual words. A misconclusion has arisen, in the context of the controversy raised by Julia Werntz, that because I describe the "wolf" fifth 40/27 as "scary," I therefore dogmatically forbid its use in music. This is a groundless and arbitrary inference. I use 40/27 in my music myself; the third movement of my opera Custer and Sitting Bull is soaked in it. I am fascinated by JI dissonances, as my recent article on my music in 1/1 attests. I do hear a very different quality in 40/27 than I do in 3/2, and I capitalize on such differences when I compose, choosing intervals precisely for their inherent qualities. In my web site's "Just Intonation Explained" page, written as an introduction for beginners, I describe the 40/27 interval, isolated from context and compared to 3/2, as "scary," just as someone writing an introduction to harmony for nonmusicians might describe the diminished seventh chord as "anxious." I stand by the statement as it appears in its original context, but not as removed from context and transformed into sweeping philosophical dogma by the ever-creative members of the tuning list.

Yours,

Kyle Gann

No problem Kyle. Besides, I believe sorting "dissonances" from the universal set of all intervals and discarding them in the name of "aesthetics" would be like removing part of our musical intellect. By allowing such a distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad", we would be denying ourselves an amazing sector of the musical universe.
I recall reading a post on the Tuning List couple of years back about jazz pianists making regular trips to a piano junk yard in Manhattan to play "out of tune" pianos. This made so much sense to me when I first read it, and now it makes even more sense.
A piece accomodating a certain dose of "dissonances", no matter how radical they may be at times, blended skillfully into a backdrop of consonances could make a musically exciting and stimulating experience for the human ear.
Kind regards,
Can Akkoc
Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Gann writes that a 680-cent fifth sounds "scary."
>
> if this is indeed an overarching assessment, made without context,
> then this is certainly a piece of dogma i can't agree with. nor, i'm
> sure, would many just intonation practitioners -- kraig grady in
> particular loves to use this interval.

Pardon me for intruding at this late date to correct misapprehensions that have been drawn, not only from individual phrases taken out of context of my writings, but individual words. A misconclusion has arisen, in the context of the controversy raised by Julia Werntz, that because I describe the "wolf" fifth 40/27 as "scary," I therefore dogmatically forbid its use in music. This is a groundless and arbitrary inference. I use 40/27 in my music myself; the third movement of my opera Custer and Sitting Bull is soaked in it. I am fascinated by JI dissonances, as my recent article on my music in 1/1 attests. I do hear a very different quality in 40/27 than I do in 3/2, and I capitalize on such differences when I compose, choosing intervals precisely for their inherent qualities. In my web site's "Just Intonation Explained" page, written as an introduction for beginners, I describe the 40/27 interval, isolated from context and compared to 3/2, as "scary," just as someone writing an introduction to harmony for nonmusicians might describe the diminished seventh chord as "anxious." I stand by the statement as it appears in its original context, but not as removed from context and transformed into sweeping philosophical dogma by the ever-creative members of the tuning list.

Yours,

Kyle Gann
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In a message dated 11/12/02 8:35:42 AM Central Standard Time,
kgann@earthlink.net writes:

> > > Gann writes that a 680-cent fifth sounds "scary."
> >
> > if this is indeed an overarching assessment, made without context,
> > then this is certainly a piece of dogma i can't agree with. nor, i'm
> > sure, would many just intonation practitioners -- kraig grady in
> > particular loves to use this interval.
>
> Pardon me for intruding at this late date to correct misapprehensions that
> have been drawn, not only from individual phrases taken out of context of
> my writings, but individual words. A misconclusion has arisen, in the
> context of the controversy raised by Julia Werntz, that because I describe
> the "wolf" fifth 40/27 as "scary," I therefore dogmatically forbid its use
> in music. This is a groundless and arbitrary inference. I use 40/27 in my
> music myself; the third movement of my opera Custer and Sitting Bull is
> soaked in it. I am fascinated by JI dissonances, as my recent article on my
> music in 1/1 attests. I do hear a very different quality in 40/27 than I do
> in 3/2, and I capitalize on such differences when I compose, choosing
> intervals precisely for their inherent qualities. In my web site's "Just
> Intonation Explained" page, written as an introduction for beginners, I
> describe the 40/27 interval, isolated from context and compared to 3/2, as
> "scary," just as someone writing an introduction to harmony for
> nonmusicians might describe the diminished seventh chord as "anxious." I
> stand by the statement as it appears in its original context, but not as
> removed from context and transformed into sweeping philosophical dogma by
> the ever-creative members of the tuning list.
>
> Yours,
>
> Kyle Gann
>
>

In a message dated 11/12/02 8:35:42 AM Central Standard Time,
kgann@earthlink.net writes:

> I describe the 40/27 interval, isolated from context and compared to 3/2, as
> "scary,"
>
> Kyle Gann

The interval A 906-E 386 can't be used as a substitute for the just or ET 5th
in any regulal harmony. In the first place, its ET version of 688 cents at
least creates noticeable beats.

Pauline

Pauline,

--- In tuning@y..., prophecyspirit@a... wrote:
> The interval A 906-E 386 can't be used as a substitute for the just
> or ET 5th in any regulal harmony. In the first place, its ET version
> of 688 cents at least creates noticeable beats.

I'm sorry to butt in here, but you make statements like this at regular intervals: what "can't" be done, and you do it from the context of "any regular harmony" (I'm guessing 'regulal' was a typo). You simply must look at the context of the author/composer/performer when making these judgements - not everyone is recreating music of the past, including the most recent past.

Kyle Gann is a composer, extremely well-versed in Just Intonation, and he not only can but *does* use such intervals. I would suggest you take a look at his article (that he mentioned) in the most recent issue of 1/1 regarding JI dissonances.

"Can't": the least used word in a creative artist's vocabulary.

Cheers,
Jon

In a message dated 11/12/02 9:57:10 AM Central Standard Time,
JSZANTO@ADNC.COM writes:

> what "can't" be done, and you do it from the context of "any regular
> harmony" (I'm guessing 'regulal' was a typo). You simply must look at the
> context of the author/composer/performer when making these judgements - not
> everyone is recreating music of the past, including the most recent past.
>
> Jon
>
By regular harmony I was refering to music scored for 5ths no smaller than
the meantone. I tried the 680 route when developing my scale, and coudl tell
right away it wouldn't work for a scale intended to play music over the
centuries.

Pauline

--- In tuning@y..., prophecyspirit@a... wrote:
> I tried the 680 route when developing my scale, and coudl tell
> right away it wouldn't work for a scale intended to play music
> over the centuries.

Exactly - Kyle Gann is creating new music, and doesn't have to fit any previous 'rules'. This is why tuning is so important: there can be different tunings for different musics, and different uses of a tuning in different contexts. There is no one way, and we should embrace the myriad of possibilities.

Right?

Cheers,
Jon

>"Can't": the least used word in a creative artist's vocabulary.
>
> Cheers,
> Jon

With "must" following a close second.

Thanks, Jon,

Kyle

.....The only thing nicer than a 40/27 is an 80/27 ( treble clef and above) ..........
Seriously, just as a Tritone defines where you are in the scale so does the 40/27.
I once did a transcroiption of part of Ockeghem Requiem which really exploited this interval also, just for my own personal passion. It spoiled me
And yes as Can Akkoc points out we need the disonances , Jung too pointed out that there is no live without tension. We can leave the consonance to when we are dead.

>
> From: Kyle Gann <kgann@earthlink.net>
> Subject: re: everyone concerned
>
> > > Gann writes that a 680-cent fifth sounds "scary."
> >
> > if this is indeed an overarching assessment, made without context,
> > then this is certainly a piece of dogma i can't agree with. nor, i'm
> > sure, would many just intonation practitioners -- kraig grady in
> > particular loves to use this interval.
>
> Pardon me for intruding at this late date to correct misapprehensions
> that have been drawn, not only from individual phrases taken out of
> context of my writings, but individual words. A misconclusion has
> arisen, in the context of the controversy raised by Julia Werntz,
> that because I describe the "wolf" fifth 40/27 as "scary," I
> therefore dogmatically forbid its use in music. >"Can't": the least used word in a creative artist's vocabulary.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
>
> With "must" following a close second.
>
> Thanks, Jon,
>
> Kyle
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

>Seriously, just as a Tritone defines where you are in the scale so >does the 40/27.

Amen, Kraig. My philosophy of JI composing in a nutshell.

Kyle

--- In tuning@y..., prophecyspirit@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/12/02 8:35:42 AM Central Standard Time,
> kgann@e... writes:
>
>
> > I describe the 40/27 interval, isolated from context and compared
to 3/2, as
> > "scary,"
> >
> > Kyle Gann
>
>
> The interval A 906-E 386 can't be used as a substitute for the just
or ET 5th
> in any regulal harmony. In the first place, its ET version of 688
cents at
> least creates noticeable beats.
>
> Pauline

also see /tuning/topicId_40814.html#40819

pauline, aren't you contradicting yourself? isn't this 40/27 interval
exactly what you said you'd have between A and E in your realization
of a C-G-A-D-E jazz chord?

Dear Kyle Gann,

--- In tuning@y..., Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> >"Can't": the least used word in a creative artist's vocabulary.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Jon
>
> With "must" following a close second.
>
> Thanks, Jon,
>
> Kyle

These sentiments are right up my alley, too. In fact, this was one of my main points
in the essay I wrote for PNM. The tone and content of your message
/tuning/topicId_38646.html#38646
from last summer - your statement in response to the controversy on this list over
my essay in PNM - is also quite benign. The title, "Gann's Reasons for Using Just
Intonation," and all the language "I like the harmonic implications of fractions and
ratios," "I have never liked the concept of transposability," and so on are
wonderful: the composer's reasons for doing what he does. This is always
fascinating to see.

You also wrote: "I have a tremendous natural talent for fractions and logarithms.
It would be a shame to let it go to waste. I tell my students that if they
don't have a good head for fractions and logarithms they should leave
just intonation alone. It's not for everyone." And this sounds beautiful, too.

So it just makes me wonder, what happens when your students see the essay on
just intonation on your website, and read this:
"My teacher, Ben Johnston, was convinced that our tuning is responsible for much
of our cultural psychology, the fact that we are so geared toward progress and
action and violence and so little attuned to introspection, contentment, and
acquiesence. Equal temperament could be described as the musical equivalent to
eating a lot of red meat and processed sugars and watching violent action films.
The music doesn't turn your attention inward, it makes you want to go out and
work off your nervous energy on something."

If you have told students that just intonation is not for them, that they should
"leave just intonation alone," and if they have decided to stick with 12-note ET,
does this mean that they must reconcile themselves with the idea that they will be
stuck in a musical world that is "violen,t" "processed," "the musical equivalent of
eating a lot of red meat, etc"?

-Julia Werntz

Dear Julia,

Quoting Julia Werntz:
"So it just makes me wonder, what happens when your students see the essay on just intonation on your website, and read this: 'My teacher, Ben Johnston, was convinced that our tuning is responsible for much of our cultural psychology, the fact that we are so geared toward progress and action and violence and so little attuned to introspection, contentment, and acquiesence. Equal temperament could be described as the musical equivalent to eating a lot of red meat and processed sugars and watching violent action films. The music doesn't turn your attention inward, it makes you want to go out and work off your nervous energy on something.'

"If you have told students that just intonation is not for them, that they should 'leave just intonation alone,' and if they have decided to stick with 12-note ET, does this mean that they must reconcile themselves with the idea that they will be stuck in a musical world that is 'violent,' 'processed,' 'the musical equivalent of eating a lot of red meat, etc'?" [end quote]

First of all, why should I apologize for quoting my teacher, whom I regard as a great composer and great musical thinker?

Secondly, there are temperaments. There is meantone. There are more subtle equal divisions of the octave than 12. Why not use them? My pianos, at home and in my office, are tuned to Thomas Young's 1799 well temperament. I don't allow 12tet in any space I have complete control over. It's very easy to avoid 12tet without doing all the fractions necessary for JI. People did it for hundreds of years.

Thirdly, a composer's life is difficult enough, and I never feel a student should go up against the massive technological assumptions of his own culture unless he has his own, deeply-felt impulse to resist. I never ask a student to join me in the fight I have chosen. A couple have chosen to join me anyway.

Yours,

Kyle Gann

Hello again,

>
> First of all, why should I apologize for quoting my teacher, whom I
> regard as a great composer and great musical thinker?
>

Ben Johnston *is* a great composer and musical thinker, but it wasn't the decision
itself to quote *him* on this point that I was questioning so much, as the decision in
general to broadcast this message about the corrupting qualities of 12-note equal
temperament.

> Secondly, there are temperaments. There is meantone. There are more
> subtle equal divisions of the octave than 12. Why not use them? My
> pianos, at home and in my office, are tuned to Thomas Young's 1799
> well temperament. I don't allow 12tet in any space I have complete
> control over. It's very easy to avoid 12tet without doing all the
> fractions necessary for JI. People did it for hundreds of years.

I myself use 72-note equal temperament, not because I think 12-note ET is flawed,
but because of a creative need to expand. This creative need, when applied to
pitches, could potentially find an outlet in any alternative kind of tuning or new
octave divisions. Other musicians could expand musically in other directions, while
sticking to the old 12 equal-tempered intervals.

>
> Thirdly, a composer's life is difficult enough, and I never feel a
> student should go up against the massive technological assumptions of
> his own culture unless he has his own, deeply-felt impulse to resist.
> I never ask a student to join me in the fight I have chosen. A couple
> have chosen to join me anyway.
>

Although I guess I do have a private sense that microintervals are the real ticket, I,
too, am not trying to convince musicians who are not so inclined that they must
use microinterals. It's partly out of respect for their own musical visions, and also
because, as you said, a composer's life is hard enough. But for me it's not about the
courage to "resist" our "culture" in the sense that you describe it. It is about how
much heartache and loneliness there can be when the musical establishment in our
country rejects over and over again the very idea of microtonal music (of any
kind). If one doesn't have the tolerance for the rejection, and if one isn't really
passionately excited about using the new pitches in the first place (add to that the
patience to work the microintervals out with performers), then one probably
should forget about it.

-Julia

Julia,

>> First of all, why should I apologize for quoting my teacher, whom I
>> regard as a great composer and great musical thinker?
>Ben Johnston *is* a great composer and musical thinker, but it wasn't the
>decision itself to quote *him* on this point that I was
>questioning so much, as the decision in general to broadcast
>this message about the corrupting qualities of 12-note equal
>temperament.

Why not braodcast it? Ben believes it, and from my own intuition and long experience playing just-intonation music, I think there's a lot to it. It's not the kind of thesis that could be scientifically proven in a short time, but there are cultural correspondences one could point to, and I've heard from other just-intonationists who strongly agreed. Apparently some people on the tuning list have been bothered to high heaven by this statement, but I don't give a damn. I compared 12tet to white sugar and coffee, not nerve gas, anthrax, and Republicanism. I'm not a Chicken Little raving that the walls are going to come tumbling down if we don't switch. I try to avoid white sugar, beef, and 12tet whenever possible, which it often isn't. I do, however, enjoy coffee and cigars, and if I enjoyed 12tet as much as I enjoy Maker's Mark, I wouldn't have the self-discipline to give it up. The comment is a source of much entertainment to the out-of-context-quoting nabobs of the tuning list, and it will remain.

Kyle

--- In tuning@y..., "jwerntz2002" <juliawerntz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40814.html#40857

It is about how
> much heartache and loneliness there can be when the musical
establishment in our
> country rejects over and over again the very idea of microtonal
music (of any
> kind). If one doesn't have the tolerance for the rejection, and if
one isn't really
> passionately excited about using the new pitches in the first place
(add to that the
> patience to work the microintervals out with performers), then one
probably
> should forget about it.
>
> -Julia

***I have to agree wholeheartedly with Julia Werntz here... However,
the "forgetting about it" is surely not an option in *my* personal
case. The idea of writing a string quartet without using
microtonality seems to me to be one of the lame-brainest ideas
imaginable at the moment...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:

> The comment is a source of much entertainment to the
> out-of-context-quoting nabobs of the tuning list, and it will
>remain.
>
> Kyle

honestly, i've always read the "red meat" comment *in* its context,
in which it came off (to me) as a bit of well-mannered humor, with
just enough "resonance" with my personal experience . . . meanwhile,
it's clear enough that many composers would best express themselves,
and make wonderful music, by splattering red meat, intestines, and
eyeballs all over the staff paper . . .

as for your statement quoted above, i wonder which "nabobs" (plural)
you're referring to, since i've read just about every post on this
list for about 80 months now -- i really think you may be
exaggerating the extent of this "entertainment" . . .

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40814.html#40875

>
> as for your statement quoted above, i wonder which "nabobs"
(plural)
> you're referring to, since i've read just about every post on this
> list for about 80 months now -- i really think you may be
> exaggerating the extent of this "entertainment" . . .

***Actually, I'd forgotten what the term "nabob" meant... but after
looking it up, found it's not entirely uncomplimentary. Certainly
much better than "nincompoop..."

J. Pehrson

Julia and Kyle!
I am not sure if Ben Johnson has had simular experiences or not, but the more i work with just
intonation, the more i notice how music effects my body.There is quite a bit of music out there
that effects my body in very unpleasant ways regardless of its great craftmanship.

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

Hi Kraig,

Well, that's just the point. When I have the opportunity to spend a few weeks working in JI day in and day out, I become very attuned to the calmness of the harmonies. And then, if I sit down at a conventionally tuned piano and play even a quiet Beethoven adagio, the buzziness of the sixths and thirds really leaps out at me, sometimes startling my hands away from the keyboard as though I had caused loud feedback. It takes me awhile before 12tet ceases to sound awful. And then I wonder sometimes what it must be doing to me, and to all of us, to hear that buzzy 12tet on a daily basis. It's like - if I may be forgiven yet another food analogy - after you stay on a pure macrobiotic diet for awhile, the unhealthiness of red meat and fried foods makes you almost sick when you taste them again. But it's nearly impossible to convince anyone who hasn't had the experience of adjusting to pure tuning that the the sensitivity to sound and beats you develop is very real.

Thanks,

Kyle

Kyle,

--- In tuning@y..., Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> Hi Kraig,
>
> Well, that's just the point. When I have the opportunity to spend a
> few weeks working in JI day in and day out, I become very attuned to
> the calmness of the harmonies. And then, if I sit down at a
> conventionally tuned piano and play even a quiet Beethoven adagio,
> the buzziness of the sixths and thirds really leaps out at me,
> sometimes startling my hands away from the keyboard as though I had
> caused loud feedback. It takes me awhile before 12tet ceases to sound
> awful. And then I wonder sometimes what it must be doing to me, and
> to all of us, to hear that buzzy 12tet on a daily basis.

I really should leave this alone, since we obviously are looking for different things
in music, but my curiosity is getting the better of me: Does you get these feelings
from other non-just, non-pure tunings that occur in the world, or only from
12-note ET?

-Julia

Kraig,

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> Julia and Kyle!
> I am not sure if Ben Johnson has had simular experiences or not, but the more
i work with just
> intonation, the more i notice how music effects my body.There is quite a bit of
music out there
> that effects my body in very unpleasant ways regardless of its great
craftmanship.
>

Is there any music inbetween the JI music that affects your body in that
(presumably) positive way, and the music that affects it in an unpleasant way? (I.e.
is there any non-just music in the world that doesn't affect your body in an
unpleasant way?)

Listening to James Brown, for example, affects me (including my body) in a very
positive way. Just for one example.

-Julia

Hi Julia,

What bothers me about 12tet is that the fifths are acceptably in tune, and the thirds and sixths are way off. In other words, as you play through a piece, there's a quasi-random variation in out-of-tuneness, some intervals being just fine and others awful. Whereas, I love to play through Baroque music in meantone - there's a lovely consistency between one chord and the next, even with the fifths noticeably out of tune. And Bach and Beethoven are fascinating to play through in well temperament, because they will get very different effects in different keys. The second movement of Beethoven's Appassionata, for instance, being in D-flat, is really buzzy because of the D-flat/F interval, but in that context the wide major third provides a sparkle without which the music begins to sag. Play that same movement in C instead of D-flat, and it loses something, and sounds a little lifeless. There is certainly a place in music for buzzy intervals - Indonesian gamelan relies heavily on them. (I can add, though, that we have a Balinese gamelan here on campus, and the racket it produces can drive everyone here wild under sustained exposure, which probably has a little to do with the intentional inharmonicity between the pairs of instruments.) But the music, for me, needs to be closely aligned with, or attuned to, the tuning in which it is played. And 12tet just isn't aligned with anything, because there is virtually no music written - except for perhaps certain 12-tone pieces, such as a few by Webern filled with major sevenths and tritones - in which the choice of harmonies is made closely according to the amount of beating in the intervals. I don't get that harsh feeling from Baroque music played in meantone or classical-era music played in well temperament, although even well temperament can take a little getting used to after several weeks of JI. And of course, most of the time 12tet sounds fine, because I don't get more than three or four weeks a year in which I can really immerse myself in pure intervals. It's in the transition from pure intervals to badly tempered ones that I suddenly realize what I'm missing most of the time. I can get a wonderful feeling of calm and interiority and immersion in the music from working for several days in tunings in which the intervals are all within two or three cents of just. It's disappointing to give that up.

It does seem to me that, as long as you are conditioned to hear only the fundamentals and filter out the beats, any tuning can sound fine. But once you've conditioned yourself to hear the interaction of partials, as a piano tuner does, certain combinations begin to grate on you, especially if there's no sensitivity to where in the music they appear.

Thanks for acknowledging that there are different things one can listen for in music.

Yours,

Kyle

jwerntz2002 wrote:

>
>
> But for me it's not about the
> courage to "resist" our "culture" in the sense that you describe it. It is about how
> much heartache and loneliness there can be when the musical establishment in our
> country rejects over and over again the very idea of microtonal music (of any
> kind). If one doesn't have the tolerance for the rejection, and if one isn't really
> passionately excited about using the new pitches in the first place (add to that the
> patience to work the microintervals out with performers), then one probably
> should forget about it.
>
> -Julia

Well that's so true and if it's any consolation it's no easier here in Scotland. I can agree
wholeheartedly with these words at a time when I feel like chucking my microtonal instruments and
compositions on the scrapheap and taking Holy Orders. Only I'd probably complain about the tuning
of the plainsong.

I've just been refused funding from the Scottish Arts Council under their music bursaries scheme
for "the creation and development of new work". I proposed a set of five substantial compositions
to be written throughout next year, in Just Intonation and 22 tet, involving new instruments,
conventional instruments and voice, electronics and guitar. I'd have thought that a combination of
new instruments with new timbres in new tunings playing new compositions was , well , new, but
obviously not new enough. So, disappointed but not bitter, I've asked for details on the
successful applications so that I can figure out where microtonality stands in the scheme of
things, whether its worth continuing with my efforts, and if so how best to promote the music. One
example of a successful project, though not in music was a �1,500 grant towards an internet based
animation exploring the use of UltraViolet light in tanning female skin!

Most of the music successes in the past seem to have been indie style pop bands, possibly because
of their commercial potential (the boss-man of the Arts Council is an accountant) but I need to
see what they've funded this time round to get a fix on current trends. Not that that will make me
follow the trend, but it is a good time to take stock and work out if I should continue the
compositions under my own steam - or go into opera which receives about 80% of the total budget
each year.

Well, that's my bleating over and done and I'm glad that I have a place to bleat and whine. It is
however most interesting to feel a direct emotional link with the sentiments expressed by Julia
and to consider the importance that official recognition has in our chosen field. At this point in
time I take comfort from the fact that Bach failed his first audition.

Kind Regards
a.m.

Kind Regards
a.m.

Thanks for the bountiful reinforcements, Ed. Keep shooting those fish.

And I repeat, everything I've just said about increased sensitivity of hearing is only ONE of the reasons I use just intonation, and not even the most important one.

As Alison reiterates, it's difficult being a composer, and much more difficult being a microtonal composer. Too difficult, in fact, to justify the 72tet people writing academic articles claiming that the JI people are full of bull, and making their lives that much harder.

Kyle

Hello Kyle.

--- In tuning@y..., Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> Thanks for the bountiful reinforcements, Ed. Keep shooting those fish.
>
> And I repeat, everything I've just said about increased sensitivity
> of hearing is only ONE of the reasons I use just intonation, and not
> even the most important one.
>
> As Alison reiterates, it's difficult being a composer, and much more
> difficult being a microtonal composer. Too difficult, in fact, to
> justify the 72tet people writing academic articles claiming that the
> JI people are full of bull, and making their lives that much harder.
>

That would be me, of course. Why don¢t you address me directly, and say ?Ju=
lia,
you¢ve made people¢s lives harder with your academic essay.? Our dialogue u=
ntil
now was straightforward and civilized; let¢s try to keep it that way.

Whose life did I make harder with my PNM essay? There was some heated,
probing discussion on this Tuning List in the summer, through which it seem=
s which
many members¢ personal commitment to JI was reaffirmed (a good thing, no?),=

while a few others agreed more-or-less with my views and were happy that I =

voiced them. The only person I¢m aware of whose life was made (briefly) har=
der
by this was me, which is perhaps as it should be.

By contrast, how many people have you made unhappy from your powerful
podium at the Village Voice, NY Times, etc. Not that you shouldn¢t be voici=
ng
your views in these publications; you should, if that¢s your calling. It¢s =
just that you
accusing me of making people¢s lives hard with my one PNM essay seems very =

far-fetched.

As for the ?academic? accusation: what can I say? Your the one with the cla=
ssy
teaching gig at Bard. I have no teaching job, and gloomy prospects. Not tha=
t I¢m
not *trying* to get a decent teaching job, but as of yet I can¢t exactly be=
accused of
representing ?academia,? especially when I have received mostly only smirks=
,
insults or indifference from ?academia? with my microtones.

In the meantime, have you looked at the website of the Boston Microtonal
Society, which I direct?
http://BostonMicrotonalSociety.org
Have you seen the ?musicans? page? Are you aware of our concert series? All=
of
my (unpaid) efforts here have been for the purpose of *promoting* and
*showcasing* the work of innovative microtonal composers, of different
persuasions, including for example Ben Johnston, whose music I admire great=
ly
even if I don¢t agree with the theory. Read our mission statement on the ma=
in
page. We (Joe and I) do it out of love for the music, out of exctitment.

In your other post you thanked me ?for acknowledging that there are differe=
nt
things one can listen for in music.? Of course there are different things o=
ne can
listen for in music. I actually had written that we are ?looking? for diffe=
rent things
in music, and by ?looking? I meant ?searching.? A genuine expression of the=

musician¢s humanity, the kind of inner humanity we don¢t encounter in our d=
aily
interactions, is what I¢m looking for in music. This can be found in the mu=
sic of any
country or style or educational level or personality type, obviously. Or tu=
ning
method - *any* tuning method at all.

What are you searching for?

-Julia

Hi Allison,

Sounds like things aren't too different in Scotland. (Though, do state "arts councils"
here even fund new operas? Certainly not with 80% of their budgets.)

My own personal conviction I derive from the knowledge that there are always
performers and audiences who love the microtonal music, even if the bigwigs
reject it. The music will have its day, as long as we keep writing and playing it. It
already is, in places like the Netherlands and France.

Keep the faith!

-Julia

jwerntz2002 wrote:

> Hi Allison,
>
> Sounds like things aren't too different in Scotland. (Though, do state "arts councils"
> here even fund new operas? Certainly not with 80% of their budgets.)
>
> My own personal conviction I derive from the knowledge that there are always
> performers and audiences who love the microtonal music, even if the bigwigs
> reject it. The music will have its day, as long as we keep writing and playing it. It
> already is, in places like the Netherlands and France.
>
> Keep the faith!
>
> -Julia
>

Yes, it's the audience reaction if anything that will win me over in the end and I was greatly
encouraged by reactions over the summer. I've just spent an afternoon planning out next years
research and composition schedule and over 2/3 of what I plan to do is microtonal. I'm too far in
now to change my style and direction and besides I enjoy the challenge. Thanks for the
encouragement and all the very best with your own endeavours.

Kind Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., "jwerntz2002" <juliawerntz@a...> wrote:

> Whose life did I make harder with my PNM essay? There was some heated,
> probing discussion on this Tuning List in the summer, through which it se=
em=
> s which
> many members¢ personal commitment to JI was reaffirmed (a good thing, no?=
),
> while a few others agreed more-or-less with my views and were happy that =
I voiced them.

You left off the rationalists, who might be thinking both of you rely more =
on ideology than reason.

>

Hello Julia!
A good question. Most of these reaction have been from live music and until now i can say i have
never felt the positive reaction from recordings. Except once when listening to an extremely long
Balinese shadow performance. I also became aware of sometype of "low Fundamental" generated by this
music. Actually a low common difference tone would be more exact. Other world music has touched upon
this which has kept my mind open to there is more than one way to get into this type of space, or
that there are many similar rhelms of such experience. Often even in club some bands will produce
quite pleasant washes while others are nothing less than painful. Although close to 12 ET little
remains intact in such arena. On the other hand i must say that Glenn Branca JI works were quite
tolerable than any 12 ET music at the same volume. Some works in the most grating ETS have really
gotten to me more than once.
James Brown should be considered a national treasure. Where is his McArthur? I would imagine that
live this music would be quite enjoyable and uplifting.
In referance to Alsion complaint, i have produced a sizable amount of work which is recieved
quite well where i am. I recieve no funding and grants in 25 + years have been none. No not true, one
for a Silent Film with live music, an NEA that paid for the film and nothing more, only because it
was multi media.
I really wish you all the success with your music and your organization, and like Alison and
Kyle, applaud you courage to take a harder road for no other reason than it being the one of your
calling.

From: "jwerntz2002" <juliawerntz@attbi.com>

> Subject: Re: everyone concerned
>
> Kraig,
>
>
> >
>
> Is there any music inbetween the JI music that affects your body in that
> (presumably) positive way, and the music that affects it in an unpleasant way? (I.e.
> is there any non-just music in the world that doesn't affect your body in an
> unpleasant way?)
>
> Listening to James Brown, for example, affects me (including my body) in a very
> positive way. Just for one example.
>
> -Julia
>
>

-- -Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria Island
http://www.anaphoria.com
The Wandering Medicine Show
KXLU 88.9 FM 8-9PM PST

--- In tuning@y..., Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> Hi Kraig,
>
> Well, that's just the point. When I have the opportunity to spend
a
> few weeks working in JI day in and day out, I become very
attuned to
> the calmness of the harmonies. And then, if I sit down at a
> conventionally tuned piano and play even a quiet Beethoven
adagio,
> the buzziness of the sixths and thirds really leaps out at me,
> sometimes startling my hands away from the keyboard as
though I had
> caused loud feedback. It takes me awhile before 12tet ceases
to sound
> awful.

this is exactly my experience too, kyle.

--- In tuning@y..., Kyle Gann <kgann@e...> wrote:
> Hi Julia,
>
> What bothers me about 12tet is that the fifths are acceptably in
> tune, and the thirds and sixths are way off. In other words, as
you
> play through a piece, there's a quasi-random variation in
> out-of-tuneness, some intervals being just fine and others
awful.
> Whereas, I love to play through Baroque music in meantone -
there's a
> lovely consistency between one chord and the next, even with
the
> fifths noticeably out of tune.

it would seem that neither 1/4-comma nor 1/3-comma meantone
would be ideal from this point of view, since each features a
class of perfectly just consonances. baroque music is typically
associated with meantones in the 1/5-comma to 1/6-comma
range, which would of course be better for this "consistency", as
would the earliest meantone described with precision, zarlino's
2/7-comma meantone. woolhouse's 7/26-comma and riccati's
3/14-comma meantones may be still better choices if one wants
to minimize the overall deviation from ji.

>I can get a wonderful feeling of calm and
> interiority and immersion in the music from working for several
days
> in tunings in which the intervals are all within two or three cents
> of just. It's disappointing to give that up.

the good news for the young pioneer, looking for a tuning system
to make significant new music in, is that 72-equal fulfills both
yours and julia's desiderata quite well.

> It does seem to me that, as long as you are conditioned to
hear only
> the fundamentals and filter out the beats, any tuning can sound
fine.
> But once you've conditioned yourself to hear the interaction of
> partials, as a piano tuner does, certain combinations begin to
grate
> on you, especially if there's no sensitivity to where in the music
> they appear.

i think other factors are even more powerful than beats --
combinational tones; and perhaps most of all, virtual pitch.

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

> Well that's so true and if it's any consolation it's no easier here
in Scotland. I can agree
> wholeheartedly with these words at a time when I feel like
chucking my microtonal instruments and
> compositions on the scrapheap and taking Holy Orders. Only
I'd probably complain about the tuning
> of the plainsong.
>
> I've just been refused funding from the Scottish Arts Council
under their music bursaries scheme
> for "the creation and development of new work". I proposed a
set of five substantial compositions
> to be written throughout next year, in Just Intonation and 22 tet,
involving new instruments,
> conventional instruments and voice, electronics and guitar. I'd
have thought that a combination of
> new instruments with new timbres in new tunings playing new
compositions was , well , new, but
> obviously not new enough. So, disappointed but not bitter, I've
asked for details on the
> successful applications so that I can figure out where
microtonality stands in the scheme of
> things, whether its worth continuing with my efforts, and if so
how best to promote the music. One
> example of a successful project, though not in music was a
£1,500 grant towards an internet based
> animation exploring the use of UltraViolet light in tanning
female skin!
>
> Most of the music successes in the past seem to have been
indie style pop bands, possibly because
> of their commercial potential (the boss-man of the Arts Council
is an accountant) but I need to
> see what they've funded this time round to get a fix on current
trends. Not that that will make me
> follow the trend, but it is a good time to take stock and work out
if I should continue the
> compositions under my own steam - or go into opera which
receives about 80% of the total budget
> each year.
>
> Well, that's my bleating over and done and I'm glad that I have
a place to bleat and whine. It is
> however most interesting to feel a direct emotional link with the
sentiments expressed by Julia
> and to consider the importance that official recognition has in
our chosen field. At this point in
> time I take comfort from the fact that Bach failed his first
audition.
>
> Kind Regards
> a.m.

sorry for the late reply on this thread -- personally, i would never
bore audiences with tuning details, even so much as to mention
that anything unconventional was being used (some of the
enthusiastic fans of MAD DUXX thought it sounded like the
grateful dead -- perhaps they had heard ned lagin -- why
intellectualize things?) . . . this attitude would probably carry over
to any grant proposals i might write . . .

i don't think the most important thing about any piece of music is
whether it is microtonal or not. "microtonality" isn't really a
coherent movement or style of music. i watch public television all
the time (that's what non-commercial television is called in the
usa) and *constantly* hear excellent background music that's not
in 12-equal. more and more, people are becoming accustomed
to hearing these sounds, but they don't necessarily need to be
told about it. in fact, they may be far more charmed if they aren't . .
.

i have a feeling that less than 10% of the composers of the
aformentioned PBS background music would ever consider
expending much energy on supporting a "microtonal movement",
consider that the fact of microtonalism was one of the more
important elements in their music-making, or, if they received
public funding for their work, mention the details of pitch usage
in their grant proposals -- let alone be much interested in a
forum for analyzing tuning systems like this one.

well, i just remembered that i meant to reply to this, sorry it's so
belated and (probably) fuzzy . . .

wallyesterpaulrus wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > Well that's so true and if it's any consolation it's no easier here
> in Scotland. I can agree
> > wholeheartedly with these words at a time when I feel like
> chucking my microtonal instruments and
> > compositions on the scrapheap and taking Holy Orders. Only
> I'd probably complain about the tuning
> > of the plainsong.
> >
> > I've just been refused funding from the Scottish Arts Council
> under their music bursaries scheme
> > for "the creation and development of new work". I proposed a
> set of five substantial compositions
> > to be written throughout next year, in Just Intonation and 22 tet,
> involving new instruments,
> > conventional instruments and voice, electronics and guitar. I'd
> have thought that a combination of
> > new instruments with new timbres in new tunings playing new
> compositions was , well , new, but
> > obviously not new enough. So, disappointed but not bitter, I've
> asked for details on the
> > successful applications so that I can figure out where
> microtonality stands in the scheme of
> > things, whether its worth continuing with my efforts, and if so
> how best to promote the music. One
> > example of a successful project, though not in music was a
> �1,500 grant towards an internet based
> > animation exploring the use of UltraViolet light in tanning
> female skin!
> >
> > Most of the music successes in the past seem to have been
> indie style pop bands, possibly because
> > of their commercial potential (the boss-man of the Arts Council
> is an accountant) but I need to
> > see what they've funded this time round to get a fix on current
> trends. Not that that will make me
> > follow the trend, but it is a good time to take stock and work out
> if I should continue the
> > compositions under my own steam - or go into opera which
> receives about 80% of the total budget
> > each year.
> >
> > Well, that's my bleating over and done and I'm glad that I have
> a place to bleat and whine. It is
> > however most interesting to feel a direct emotional link with the
> sentiments expressed by Julia
> > and to consider the importance that official recognition has in
> our chosen field. At this point in
> > time I take comfort from the fact that Bach failed his first
> audition.
> >
> > Kind Regards
> > a.m.
>
> sorry for the late reply on this thread -- personally, i would never
> bore audiences with tuning details, even so much as to mention
> that anything unconventional was being used (some of the
> enthusiastic fans of MAD DUXX thought it sounded like the
> grateful dead -- perhaps they had heard ned lagin -- why
> intellectualize things?) . . . this attitude would probably carry over
> to any grant proposals i might write . . .

To get funding out of these bodies you have to give a full account of your proposed project. It's
half of a dialogue between artist and patron. This includes in my case all the tuning details,
which, apart from shedding light on an area that the decision makers know little about (by their
own admission) also lets them see where I'm at. As for boring audiences, well it depends on how
you present the facts. Boring people will bore audiences. I've never been a follower of the 19th
century fashion (still current) whereby the performer appears, performs and leaves. So I And I've
always had warm responses after performances to the tuning details. In extremely conservative
performance events programme notes would probably be better. We don't want to upset the complacent
bourgeoisie : )

> i don't think the most important thing about any piece of music is
> whether it is microtonal or not. "microtonality" isn't really a
> coherent movement or style of music.

I agree with the first part though I don't know what the most important thing about a piece of
music is apart from whether I find it to be of interest on emotional and technical levels.
Microtonality may not be a coherent movement, but I think it has the potential to be a defining
element within a style. Only the future repertoire will tell. I look at microtonality as an idiom
- much more will have to be done before a style arises.

> i watch public television all
> the time (that's what non-commercial television is called in the
> usa) and *constantly* hear excellent background music that's not
> in 12-equal. more and more, people are becoming accustomed
> to hearing these sounds, but they don't necessarily need to be
> told about it. in fact, they may be far more charmed if they aren't . .

Well, I'm not on a mission to give a doctrinal lecture before each performance : - ) but if I
have the chance and the vibe is cool I'll engage with the audience. At the moment I'm engaged in
live performance and as such I have the privilege of defining performance parameters which
includes what the audience is told. That's the advantage live has over recorded background music.

>
> .i have a feeling that less than 10% of the composers of the
> aformentioned PBS background music would ever consider
> expending much energy on supporting a "microtonal movement",
> consider that the fact of microtonalism was one of the more
> important elements in their music-making, or, if they received
> public funding for their work, mention the details of pitch usage
> in their grant proposals -- let alone be much interested in a
> forum for analyzing tuning systems like this one.

Perhaps those musicians are probably not focussing as intently as I am on the microtonal element.
If I was in their position I'd write the music, take the money and keep quiet. My project is
different in that I have several specific compositions in mind, all microtonal, which, as the most
important "new" element in the proposed music, needed full elaboration. But yes I take your point.
In a better world and when I have established myself I won't need to go into such details. But
hopefully I'll still be interested in this forum.

> well, i just remembered that i meant to reply to this, sorry it's so
> belated and (probably) fuzzy . . .

Not at all. Thanks for taking an interest. I get the impression that some people disapprove in
some way of seeking funding. There are no aristocratic patrons here any more, no Esterhazys and
the like. We have governments full of jokers and in my case an underfunded Arts Council (though it
manages to splash out on the national opera and ballet companies) with its cliques and coteries.
If I don't get the money, somebody else does. And I happen to think my project would make a more
valuable contribution to the arts than some of the others. So I shall continue to aspire to make
music of the highest quality - unfunded.

Kind Regards
a.m.

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40814.html#41332

> > i don't think the most important thing about any piece of music is
> > whether it is microtonal or not. "microtonality" isn't really a
> > coherent movement or style of music.
>
> I agree with the first part though I don't know what the most
important thing about a piece of
> music is apart from whether I find it to be of interest on
emotional and technical levels.
> Microtonality may not be a coherent movement, but I think it has
the potential to be a defining
> element within a style. Only the future repertoire will tell. I
look at microtonality as an idiom
> - much more will have to be done before a style arises.
>
> > i watch public television all
> > the time (that's what non-commercial television is called in the
> > usa) and *constantly* hear excellent background music that's not
> > in 12-equal. more and more, people are becoming accustomed
> > to hearing these sounds, but they don't necessarily need to be
> > told about it. in fact, they may be far more charmed if they
aren't . .
>
> Well, I'm not on a mission to give a doctrinal lecture before each
performance : - ) but if I
> have the chance and the vibe is cool I'll engage with the audience.
At the moment I'm engaged in
> live performance and as such I have the privilege of defining
performance parameters which
> includes what the audience is told. That's the advantage live has
over recorded background music.
>
> >
> > .i have a feeling that less than 10% of the composers of the
> > aformentioned PBS background music would ever consider
> > expending much energy on supporting a "microtonal movement",
> > consider that the fact of microtonalism was one of the more
> > important elements in their music-making, or, if they received
> > public funding for their work, mention the details of pitch usage
> > in their grant proposals -- let alone be much interested in a
> > forum for analyzing tuning systems like this one.
>
> Perhaps those musicians are probably not focussing as intently as I
am on the microtonal element.
> If I was in their position I'd write the music, take the money and
keep quiet. My project is
> different in that I have several specific compositions in mind, all
microtonal, which, as the most
> important "new" element in the proposed music, needed full
elaboration. But yes I take your point.
> In a better world and when I have established myself I won't need
to go into such details. But
> hopefully I'll still be interested in this forum.
>
> > well, i just remembered that i meant to reply to this, sorry it's
so
> > belated and (probably) fuzzy . . .
>
> Not at all. Thanks for taking an interest. I get the impression
that some people disapprove in
> some way of seeking funding. There are no aristocratic patrons here
any more, no Esterhazys and
> the like. We have governments full of jokers and in my case an
underfunded Arts Council (though it
> manages to splash out on the national opera and ballet companies)
with its cliques and coteries.
> If I don't get the money, somebody else does. And I happen to think
my project would make a more
> valuable contribution to the arts than some of the others. So I
shall continue to aspire to make
> music of the highest quality - unfunded.
>
> Kind Regards
> a.m.

***Hello Alison!

Of course, this is more about the *politics* of music than the music
itself. Maybe more a "MetaTuning" topic...??

Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40814.html#41323

>
> sorry for the late reply on this thread -- personally, i would
never
> bore audiences with tuning details, even so much as to mention
> that anything unconventional was being used

> i don't think the most important thing about any piece of music is
> whether it is microtonal or not.

***As they say in the Midwest, "Youbetcha!"

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@yahoogroups.com, "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40814.html#41340

> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
>
> /tuning/topicId_40814.html#41323
>
> >
> > sorry for the late reply on this thread -- personally, i would
> never
> > bore audiences with tuning details, even so much as to mention
> > that anything unconventional was being used
>
>
> > i don't think the most important thing about any piece of music
is
> > whether it is microtonal or not.
>
> ***As they say in the Midwest, "Youbetcha!"
>
> J. Pehrson

###Looking over the list again, I have to define this comment. I
certainly don't mean to imply that it's not important whether a piece
is microtonal or not. It's *very* important. The point is only that
at least in *my* music, the tuning is one of *several* significant
features. Others are free to disagree, and perhaps their styles are
such that tuning *is* the most important feature....

J. Pehrson