comma shifts in performance

I recorded a computer synthesized performance of a passage
by Bruckner in 12-EQT and just versions. It was mostly
for four voices and harmonically it would fit with a
"classical" style closer to Bach than to Debussy. In the
just version, I used some rather abrupt comma shifts (gliding
over perhaps half a second or so) to keep in tune with the
harmonies as they shifted. This was in the early 1980s
when there was little information or practical experience
regarding the matter to my knowledge.

At this distance, having listened to the passages many
times and having formed an impression of them over a long
period of time, it's my impression that having the comma
shifts too abrupt or audible doesn't sound natural and doesn't
sound like any recorded vocal performance - even barbershop -
that I've heard. At the same time, it doesn't sound too
terribly jarring either with a half second or so being given
for the glides of the shifts, and I have the impression that
some singing groups do have subtle shifts done not too
rigidly to keep the harmonies - especially over sustained
chords - close to just.

It's my impression that in general, the just version of
the Bruckner passage, with asymmetrical diminished 7th chords, etc.,
has a lot more "punch" than the 12-EQT version. In particular, the
shifts between successive harmonies seem more dramatic and striking,
yet "reasonable, making sense" in the just version. I believe there
is a large field for exploration and experimentation out there even
now for musicians to try out many different ways of harmonizing
musical passages. Out of a single Bach score, by using different
temperaments, or variants of just harmonizations, etc., several
appreciably different sounding performances could be produced.
Maybe each one would be in some sense "valid." Thus perhaps
Bach could be thought of as not the final "composer" of one of
his works, but rather the initiator of a series of pieces of
music which later composers expand upon and make even more
effective and powerful than Bach's original piece.

Johnny - will E-mail you soon.

Dave Hill Borrego Springs, CA

In a message dated 10/29/02 9:45:00 AM Central Standard Time,
ASCEND11@AOL.COM writes:

> it's my impression that having the comma
> shifts too abrupt or audible doesn't sound natural and doesn't
> sound like any recorded vocal performance - even barbershop -
> that I've heard. At the same time, it doesn't sound too
> terribly jarring either with a half second or so being given
> for the glides of the shifts, and I have the impression that
> some singing groups do have subtle shifts done not too
> rigidly to keep the harmonies - especially over sustained
> chords - close to just.
>
Johnny,

One way to use comma shifts is to have a slight break between them, such as
breathing would do. As I said before, most performers fail to phrae their
music, but play it like a flowing river. Outside the Wagnerian endless-melofy
approach, there's no musical justification for playing or singing that way.
Most music is made up of short plrases, and even subphrases--half phrases,
quarter phrases.

When music is properly phrased, comma shifts in the right places can have a
dramatic effect on the music and ear. And all music havinng words is by
nature program music. And program music needs to be played in a dramatic
manner. This inlcudes phrasing according to both the words and music.

Pauline

Here's a fresh look on it, using the fifth and acute fourth
as the basis of tone space:
http://www-sfb288.math.tu-berlin.de/vgp/unheard/ma-freizeit/freizeitweb/skript/thomas/Tonraum30.11.html

After reading that, go to:
http://www.unerhoert.org
I tried to run the applet on two computers but unfortunately
the required Jsyn plugin gave grave problems on both of them.
So you're warned. I wished they made a standalone application
because it looks great.

Manuel

hello Dave,

i'm a big fan of Bruckner's symphonies, and i'd
*very much* like to hear your retuned Bruckner!!

near the end of his life, Bruckner had a visit from
Tanaka, who demonstrated his "enharmonium", a 53-tone
JI reed-organ with this tuning:
http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/tanaka/Tanaka-lattice.jpg

Bruckner was fascinated as Tanaka played JI renditions
of passages from Wagner, and from then on changed his
mind about the preconceptions he had been taught that
"JI was impracticable". i've been interested in
retuning the slow movement of his 9th Symphony ever since.

-monz

----- Original Message -----
From: <ASCEND11@AOL.COM>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 3:30 AM
Subject: [tuning] comma shifts in performance

> I recorded a computer synthesized performance of a passage
> by Bruckner in 12-EQT and just versions. It was mostly
> for four voices and harmonically it would fit with a
> "classical" style closer to Bach than to Debussy. In the
> just version, I used some rather abrupt comma shifts (gliding
> over perhaps half a second or so) to keep in tune with the
> harmonies as they shifted. This was in the early 1980s
> when there was little information or practical experience
> regarding the matter to my knowledge.
>
> At this distance, having listened to the passages many
> times and having formed an impression of them over a long
> period of time, it's my impression that having the comma
> shifts too abrupt or audible doesn't sound natural and doesn't
> sound like any recorded vocal performance - even barbershop -
> that I've heard. At the same time, it doesn't sound too
> terribly jarring either with a half second or so being given
> for the glides of the shifts, and I have the impression that
> some singing groups do have subtle shifts done not too
> rigidly to keep the harmonies - especially over sustained
> chords - close to just.
>
> It's my impression that in general, the just version of
> the Bruckner passage, with asymmetrical diminished 7th chords, etc.,
> has a lot more "punch" than the 12-EQT version. In particular, the
> shifts between successive harmonies seem more dramatic and striking,
> yet "reasonable, making sense" in the just version. I believe there
> is a large field for exploration and experimentation out there even
> now for musicians to try out many different ways of harmonizing
> musical passages. Out of a single Bach score, by using different
> temperaments, or variants of just harmonizations, etc., several
> appreciably different sounding performances could be produced.
> Maybe each one would be in some sense "valid." Thus perhaps
> Bach could be thought of as not the final "composer" of one of
> his works, but rather the initiator of a series of pieces of
> music which later composers expand upon and make even more
> effective and powerful than Bach's original piece.

--- In tuning@y..., ASCEND11@A... wrote:

> I recorded a computer synthesized performance of a passage
> by Bruckner in 12-EQT and just versions.

yes, bruckner was one of the few western common-practice composers
who seemed to prefer a strict just model to any kind of meantone
model, if i recall correctly.

what you describe sounds wonderful and kudos for the good work and
fine thoughts!

--- In tuning@y..., prophecyspirit@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/29/02 9:45:00 AM Central Standard Time,
> ASCEND11@A... writes:
>
>
> > it's my impression that having the comma
> > shifts too abrupt or audible doesn't sound natural and doesn't
> > sound like any recorded vocal performance - even barbershop -
> > that I've heard. At the same time, it doesn't sound too
> > terribly jarring either with a half second or so being given
> > for the glides of the shifts, and I have the impression that
> > some singing groups do have subtle shifts done not too
> > rigidly to keep the harmonies - especially over sustained
> > chords - close to just.
> >
> Johnny,
>
> One way to use comma shifts is to have a slight break between them,
such as
> breathing would do.

sometimes this is not possible, as if the composer tied the note over
the bar line in which the harmonic change occurs.

i wish dave or pauline could have a chance to play around with
vicentino's second tuning . . .

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:
> Here's a fresh look on it, using the fifth and acute fourth
> as the basis of tone space:
> http://www-sfb288.math.tu-berlin.de/vgp/unheard/ma-
freizeit/freizeitweb/skript/thomas/Tonraum30.11.html
>
> After reading that, go to:
> http://www.unerhoert.org
> I tried to run the applet on two computers but unfortunately
> the required Jsyn plugin gave grave problems on both of them.
> So you're warned. I wished they made a standalone application
> because it looks great.
>
> Manuel

i can't read german, but these two links contain some of the most
awesome music-theory graphics i have ever seen! i wish i could
understand the text. these graphics could make monz and pierre blush!

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> near the end of his life, Bruckner had a visit from
> Tanaka, who demonstrated his "enharmonium", a 53-tone
> JI reed-organ with this tuning:
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/tanaka/Tanaka-lattice.jpg

What a fascinating story!

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., ASCEND11@A... wrote:
>
> > I recorded a computer synthesized performance of a passage
> > by Bruckner in 12-EQT and just versions.
>
> yes, bruckner was one of the few western common-practice composers
> who seemed to prefer a strict just model to any kind of meantone
> model, if i recall correctly.

Years ago I had a bee in my bonnet about how nice it would have been to hear Bruckner doing alternate tunings, but I never thought there was a basis for this peculiar notion outside of my own whims.

> From: "monz" <monz@attglobal.net>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 10:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] comma shifts in performance
>
>
> near the end of his life, Bruckner had a visit from
> Tanaka, who demonstrated his "enharmonium", a 53-tone
> JI reed-organ with this tuning:
> http://sonic-arts.org/monzo/tanaka/Tanaka-lattice.jpg

um ... i'm aware that my lattice-diagram of Tanaka's
tuning only shows 26 notes. i'll have to read up on
this again to recall why.

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"

In a message dated 10/29/02 12:47:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
prophecyspirit@aol.com writes:

> When music is properly phrased, comma shifts in the right places can have a
> dramatic effect on the music and ear. And all music having words is by
> nature program music. And program music needs to be played in a dramatic
> manner. This includes phrasing according to both the words and music.
>
> Pauline
>

So true, Pauline. Please don't misunderstand me. When performing Gilles de
Binchois' "O Solis Ortus Cardinae" a cappella in Just Intonation, there is a
comma shift in the downward direction. It was hard to miss since each of
five verses was to the same music. That meant that the lowest of three
voices had to pick a comfortable bottom note for the last verse and measure
upwards for a starting tone to give the group. It was beautiful, and with
all the phrasing you could hope for and more.

But J.S. Bach lived in a specific place at a specific time and he made
specific choices, if not finding the choices made for him by Thuringian
institutions. For Bach's music, in order to get the most direct meaning, I
am excited to hear his music in its purest form--which is second in epiphany
only to playing it--which is in Werckmeister III.

best, Johnny Reinhard

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

> When performing Gilles de
> Binchois' "O Solis Ortus Cardinae" a cappella in Just Intonation,
there is a
> comma shift in the downward direction. It was hard to miss since
each of
> five verses was to the same music. That meant that the lowest of
three
> voices had to pick a comfortable bottom note for the last verse and
measure
> upwards for a starting tone to give the group. It was beautiful,
and with
> all the phrasing you could hope for and more.

johnny, did you really mean a "comma shift" in the sense we've been
talking about, or merely a "comma drift"? from your description, it
sounds like you're actually referring to the latter.

> From: <prophecyspirit@aol.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:22 AM
> Subject: Re: [tuning] comma shifts in performance
>
>
> When music is properly phrased, comma shifts in the
> right places can have a dramatic effect on the music
> and ear. And all music having words is by nature
> program music. And program music needs to be played
> in a dramatic manner. This inlcudes phrasing according
> to both the words and music.

i *do* agree with you 100% on this, Pauline!

-monz

In a message dated 10/29/02 1:23:11 PM Central Standard Time,
wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

> sometimes this is not possible, as if the composer tied the note over
> the bar line in which the harmonic change occurs.
>
>
In which case the suggestion I made before regarding IV-V7 would be needed.

Pauline

<PRE>I guess it would be more of a comma drift since we weren't measuring it
exactly. At least it has not yet been calculated what it w(sh)ould be.
Johnny

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> <PRE>I guess it would be more of a comma drift since we weren't
measuring it
> exactly. At least it has not yet been calculated what it w(sh)ould
be.
> Johnny

drift is drift, and isn't shift, whether you measure it exactly or
not!

--- In tuning@y..., prophecyspirit@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/29/02 1:23:11 PM Central Standard Time,
> wallyesterpaulrus@y... writes:
>
>
> > sometimes this is not possible, as if the composer tied the note
over
> > the bar line in which the harmonic change occurs.
> >
> >
> In which case the suggestion I made before regarding IV-V7 would be
>needed.

and for I-vi-ii-V-I, with all common tones tied?

In a message dated 10/29/02 5:19:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

>
> drift is drift, and isn't shift, whether you measure it exactly or
> not!
>
>
>

Would you please explain the difference and then I could better determine
which is the correct answer. Johnny :)

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/29/02 5:19:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> wallyesterpaulrus@y... writes:
>
>
> >
> > drift is drift, and isn't shift, whether you measure it exactly
or
> > not!
> >
> >
> >
>
> Would you please explain the difference and then I could better
determine
> which is the correct answer. Johnny :)

johnny, i notice that monz's dictionary isn't clear on this
distinction, and contains links that can cause one to confuse the two.

so for you and monz:

a shift is an *immediate* change in the pitch of a note, as the note
is held or repeated from one harmony into another.

a drift is an overall pitch change of the entire scale. its effect on
the pitch of any note doesn't become evident until an entire "comma
pump" chord progression has been traversed.

for example, in the classic problem of rendering the I-vi-ii-V-I
progression in strict JI, one either has a shift (the 2nd scale
degree shifts from 10/9 in the ii chord to 9/8 in the V chord) and no
drift, or a drift (the final I is lower by 80:81 than the initial I)
and no shifts.

personally, i prefer *adaptive* JI (e.g., vicentino's second tuning
of 1555), so that each chord maintains perfect justness, but there
are no audible shifts, and, for what it's worth, no drift.

but i have no earth-shattering objections to your rendition of
binchois, which drifts by a few commas, as most people probably
wouldn't notice anyway . . . :)

> I tried to run the applet on two computers but unfortunately
> the required Jsyn plugin gave grave problems on both of them.
> So you're warned. I wished they made a standalone application
> because it looks great.

The Jsyn plugin test applets worked on my machine. How far did
you get with the extreme geometry applet? I could display
models and rotate them, but the sound is what seemed to cause
problems. I tied down the CPU awful-bad, and didn't seem to be
tied to a process I could kill. At no time did it crash, but
I had to reboot to free things up (Win2K, ie6).

-Carl

In a message dated 10/29/02 5:06:31 PM Central Standard Time,
wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com writes:

> and for I-vi-ii-V-I, with all common tones tied?
>
>
I'd have to see the score. But I've played music where the harmony changed a
lot under a long held note.

Pauline

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40327.html#40367

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 10/29/02 5:19:03 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> > wallyesterpaulrus@y... writes:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > drift is drift, and isn't shift, whether you measure it exactly
> or
> > > not!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Would you please explain the difference and then I could better
> determine
> > which is the correct answer. Johnny :)
>
> johnny, i notice that monz's dictionary isn't clear on this
> distinction, and contains links that can cause one to confuse the
two.
>
> so for you and monz:
>
> a shift is an *immediate* change in the pitch of a note, as the
note
> is held or repeated from one harmony into another.
>
> a drift is an overall pitch change of the entire scale. its effect
on
> the pitch of any note doesn't become evident until an entire "comma
> pump" chord progression has been traversed.
>
> for example, in the classic problem of rendering the I-vi-ii-V-I
> progression in strict JI, one either has a shift (the 2nd scale
> degree shifts from 10/9 in the ii chord to 9/8 in the V chord) and
no
> drift, or a drift (the final I is lower by 80:81 than the initial
I)
> and no shifts.
>
> personally, i prefer *adaptive* JI (e.g., vicentino's second tuning
> of 1555), so that each chord maintains perfect justness, but there
> are no audible shifts, and, for what it's worth, no drift.
>
> but i have no earth-shattering objections to your rendition of
> binchois, which drifts by a few commas, as most people probably
> wouldn't notice anyway . . . :)

***This was, actually, a *very* clear definition of this...

CALLING MONZ... or the FAQ!

They should obviously both be linked, too, if you get my drift.

(Sorry, used that joke before...)

J. Pehrson

prophecyspirit@aol.com wrote:

>
>
> And all music havinng words is by nature program music. And program
> music needs to be played in a dramatic manner. This inlcudes phrasing
> according to both the words and music.
>
> Pauline

All music except of course virtually all the music of the Middle Ages,
certainly most of the Renaissance repertoire (I haven't come across too
many canons where the points of imitation are phrased according to the
words), some of Bach's choral fugues, Stravinsky's Mass perhaps, some
Stockhausen and Cage and some of the music of Philip Glass who has much
to say on the matter of programme music. That's off the top of my head
- I'm sure there are others.

Best Wishes

In a message dated 10/30/02 7:47:34 AM Central Standard Time,
alison.monteith3@which.net writes:

> I haven't come across too
> many canons where the points of imitation are phrased according to the
> words), some of Bach's choral fugues, Stravinsky's Mass perhaps, some
> Stockhausen and Cage and some of the music of Philip Glass who has much
> to say on the matter of programme music. That's off the top of my head
> - I'm sure there are others.
>
Whether phrasing is indicated or not, it nonetheless needs to be done. It's
based on bowing and breathing. Until the long bow was invented around 1810
bowings, and thus phrasings were short. When 'Baroque music is properly
played one can hear the difference in the phrasing from more modern music.
The sound is more like what fiddling sounds like, more dancy. And hymns
certainly must be phrased according to the words, as well as the music. I
scored my church's hymnbook for organ, and added phrase bars.

Vocal music sung properly sounds something like reading poetry aloud by a
skilled reader.

Pauline

Carl wrote:
>The Jsyn plugin test applets worked on my machine. How far did
>you get with the extreme geometry applet? I could display
>models and rotate them, but the sound is what seemed to cause
>problems. I tied down the CPU awful-bad, and didn't seem to be
>tied to a process I could kill. At no time did it crash, but
>I had to reboot to free things up (Win2K, ie6).

It worked a while on my laptop, same configuration, then
everything froze so I had to give a hard reset. On my desktop
I got a Java exception that I couldn't fix in a short time.
This combination of Java with native code annuls the purpose
of Java. And the applet doesn't work under Linux :-(

Manuel

prophecyspirit@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/30/02 7:47:34 AM Central Standard Time,
> alison.monteith3@which.net writes:
>
>
>
>> I haven't come across too
>> many canons where the points of imitation are phrased according to
>> the
>> words), some of Bach's choral fugues, Stravinsky's Mass perhaps,
>> some
>> Stockhausen and Cage and some of the music of Philip Glass who has
>> much
>> to say on the matter of programme music. That's off the top of my
>> head
>> - I'm sure there are others.
>
>
> Whether phrasing is indicated or not, it nonetheless needs to be done.
> It's based on bowing and breathing. Until the long bow was invented
> around 1810 bowings, and thus phrasings were short. When 'Baroque
> music is properly played one can hear the difference in the phrasing
> from more modern music. The sound is more like what fiddling sounds
> like, more dancy. And hymns certainly must be phrased according to the
> words, as well as the music. I scored my church's hymnbook for organ,
> and added phrase bars.
>
> Vocal music sung properly sounds something like reading poetry aloud
> by a skilled reader.

Yes, I agree with you on hymns, but in medieval multi-texted motets, in
Latin masses and in some fugues, the poetic meter is all over the place,
even if sung "properly".

Best Wishes
AM

>
>
>

In a message dated 10/30/02 3:00:45 PM Central Standard Time,
alison.monteith3@which.net writes:

> in medieval multi-texted motets, in
> Latin masses and in some fugues, the poetic meter is all over the place,
> even if sung "properly".
>
> Best Wishes
> AM
>
Of course, if the words and music don't really fit eadh other, there are
problems, such as which takes precedent.

Pauline

--- In tuning@y..., prophecyspirit@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 10/29/02 5:06:31 PM Central Standard Time,
> wallyesterpaulrus@y... writes:
>
>
> > and for I-vi-ii-V-I, with all common tones tied?
> >
> >
> I'd have to see the score.

all common tones are observed.

> But I've played music where the harmony changed a
> lot under a long held note.

yes, i love those kinds of progressions!

> Pauline
> Whether phrasing is indicated or not, it nonetheless needs to be
done. It's
> based on bowing and breathing. Until the long bow was invented
around 1810
> bowings, and thus phrasings were short. When 'Baroque music is
properly
> played one can hear the difference in the phrasing from more modern
music.
> The sound is more like what fiddling sounds like, more dancy. And
hymns
> certainly must be phrased according to the words, as well as the
music. I
> scored my church's hymnbook for organ, and added phrase bars.
>
> Vocal music sung properly sounds something like reading poetry aloud
by a
> skilled reader.

I totally agree,

In the early years of computer speech synthesis, the concept of
"breath group" has been overlooked: as a computer does not need to
breath, there is no need to have breathing pause. The result was that
wathever was the care to obtain a natural speech tone, if there is no
breath pause, the result is litteraly suffocating for the auditor!!
Hearing speech without breathing pause make most people feel
inconfortable (even though most people do not realize why). The same
disconfort can be created by editing out the breathing pause from
natural voice. I think that is what musical phrasing is basically
about: reproduce the breathing patterns of spoken or song voice. This
comes naturally for wind instruments, but not so naturally for
keyboard or bowed instrument.

To caricature a bit, good phrasing produce a "karaoke syndrome": the
urge to sign along. I have, for instance, this feeling with Casal's
performance of Bach's cello suites (and not that much with most other
cellists). A bad phrasing makes it difficult to establish a mental
correspondance with singing voice.

Obviously, 'breath group' is not the only one thing about phrasing for
song voice, there is also the correspondance between the prosodic (or
metric) structure of the language itself and the music. That is why,
for instance, why the french songs (Faure, Duparc, Debussy etc.) is
basically different german lieds.

But all this has nothing to do with tuning, sorry for being a nuisance
;-)

Yours truly

François Laferrière

In a message dated 10/31/02 4:22:29 AM Central Standard Time,
francois.laferriere@oxymel.com writes:

> Hearing speech without breathing pause make most people feel
> inconfortable (even though most people do not realize why).

François Laferrière,

No need to apologize. Your post is one of the best I've read here! I once had
an aunt who talked very fast all the time. So fast there was hardly time for
her to breathe, but somehow she managed it. It was not only hard to
understand her, but hard just to listen to!

> I think that is what musical phrasing is basically
> about: reproduce the breathing patterns of spoken or song voice. This
> comes naturally for wind instruments, but not so naturally for
> keyboard or bowed instrument.
>
Back when strings used the shorter bow, it was easier. The double bass and
cello still use a shorter bow than the violin or viola. In my writing on
organ-playing, particularly for hymns, I keep harping away at playing with
short phrases, even sub phrases. some singer will end a piece with a breath
before the last note or two. Techincially, accodring to the music that might
upset the rhythm. But it can sound right jsut the same with certain slow
songs.

Pauline

By the way, the Groven piano project's website has
MP3 samples now, don't know if it was mentioned yet.
http://www.wmich.edu/mus-theo/groven/
See Gilmore Festival, World première and Compare tunings.
For Bach I actually preferred the ET, but for the others
it sounds beautiful.

Manuel

In a message dated 10/31/02 4:22:29 AM Central Standard Time,
francois.laferriere@oxymel.com writes:

> Hearing speech without breathing pause make most people feel
> inconfortable (even though most people do not realize why).

François Laferrière,

No need to apologize. Your post is one of the best I've read here! I once had
an aunt who talked very fast all the time. So fast there was hardly time for
her to breathe, but somehow she managed it. It was not only hard to
understand her, but hard just to listen to!

> I think that is what musical phrasing is basically
> about: reproduce the breathing patterns of spoken or song voice. This
> comes naturally for wind instruments, but not so naturally for
> keyboard or bowed instrument.
>
Back when strings used the shorter bow, it was easier. The double bass and
cello still use a shorter bow than the violin or viola. In my writing on
organ-playing, particularly for hymns, I keep harping away at playing with
short phrases, even sub phrases. some singer will end a piece with a breath
before the last note or two. Techincially, accodring to the music that might
upset the rhythm. But it can sound right jsut the same with certain slow
songs.

Pauline