comma pump files

Here are three midi files with repeating comma
pumps which I just made to test a feature:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump81.mid (81/80)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump225.mid (225/224)
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump1029.mid (1029/1024)

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40280

> Here are three midi files with repeating comma
> pumps which I just made to test a feature:
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump81.mid (81/80)
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump225.mid (225/224)
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump1029.mid (1029/1024)
>
> Manuel

***These are just absolutely, ABSOLUTELY, absolutely incredible! I
always *love* stuff like this! It's a little like being in a
weird "funhouse" looking at a mirror that slightly distorts, and a
mirror on the other wall reflecting *that* one, and the image
gradually gets stranger and stranger on each reflection
and....and... well... you get the picture.

Could Monz or anybody with a little extra time on their hands [just
joking, Monz] map this out on a stave or something so I could look at
something and see what's going on?? I would really enjoy that. Or
maybe better in graphic notation with ratios and cents like the
original Monz I-IV-V7-I shift series?? That would be wonderful!

I almost wish the very first tonic were played at the very end, so we
can sense how far we've drifted! Of course, I can just play the
beginning again, which I did. It seems like an entirely different
key!

And yet, gradually, on hardly notices we're going anyplace. (At
least, that's *my* reaction, but I don't have perfect pitch)

This made my day... (doesn't take much, obviously... :)

Joseph Pehrson

> From: <manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com>
> To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:19 AM
> Subject: [tuning] comma pump files
>
>
> Here are three midi files with repeating comma
> pumps which I just made to test a feature:
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump81.mid (81/80)
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump225.mid (225/224)
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump1029.mid (1029/1024)
>
> Manuel

hmmm ... this, and the fact that paul erlich and i
were just talking on the phone last night about Yes,
made me remember something very interesting that they did:

on the album _Fragile_ (1972, IIRC), the song
_I've Seen All Good People_, at the very end,
all instruments except the organ drop out, and
the voices sing the tag line in 4 (or 5?)-part harmony,
and EACH TIME IT COMES AROUND IT'S A SEMITONE LOWER!

since i have excellent relative pitch but *not*
absolute pitch, i didn't even notice it for the
first couple of years i listened to it, until one
day i really listened carefully. i'd call it
a unique case of "chromatic drift".

i had quite forgotten about that, but Manuel's
81/80 example really reminded me of it.

-monz
"all roads lead to n^0"

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > From: <manuel.op.de.coul@e...>
> > To: <tuning@y...>
> > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:19 AM
> > Subject: [tuning] comma pump files
> >
> >
> > Here are three midi files with repeating comma
> > pumps which I just made to test a feature:
> >
> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump81.mid (81/80)
> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump225.mid (225/224)
> > http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump1029.mid (1029/1024)
> >
> > Manuel
>
>
>
> hmmm ... this, and the fact that paul erlich and i
> were just talking on the phone last night about Yes,
> made me remember something very interesting that they did:
>
> on the album _Fragile_ (1972, IIRC), the song
> _I've Seen All Good People_, at the very end,
> all instruments except the organ drop out, and
> the voices sing the tag line in 4 (or 5?)-part harmony,
> and EACH TIME IT COMES AROUND IT'S A SEMITONE LOWER!

that's a whole tone!

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

>
> on the album _Fragile_ (1972, IIRC), the song
> _I've Seen All Good People_,

wrong album -- this song is on _The Yes Album_ (1971).

p.s. rumours abound that Britney Spears plans to sing the Yes
classic 'I've Seen All Good People' on her next CD. This was
supposed reported in the New York Post, possibly yesterday. yikes!

----- Original Message -----
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:38 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: comma pump files

> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > > From: <manuel.op.de.coul@e...>
> > > To: <tuning@y...>
> > > Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 6:19 AM
> > > Subject: [tuning] comma pump files
> > >
> > >
> > > Here are three midi files with repeating comma
> > > pumps which I just made to test a feature:
> > >
> > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump81.mid (81/80)
> > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump225.mid (225/224)
> > > http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump1029.mid (1029/1024)
> > >
> > > Manuel
> >
> >
> >
> > hmmm ... this, and the fact that paul erlich and i
> > were just talking on the phone last night about Yes,
> > made me remember something very interesting that they did:
> >
> > on the album _Fragile_ (1972, IIRC), the song
> > _I've Seen All Good People_, at the very end,
> > all instruments except the organ drop out, and
> > the voices sing the tag line in 4 (or 5?)-part harmony,
> > and EACH TIME IT COMES AROUND IT'S A SEMITONE LOWER!
>
> that's a whole tone!

oops, my bad. OK, well, at this point i haven't
heard the song for probably more than 10 years...

but for me the interesting point was that as good
as my ears are (and they were probably even better
at that time), i still didn't notice a pitch-shift
until i really paid close attention.

i guess that goes a long way towards explaining why
little 'ol *comma* shifts don't bother me too much!
:)

-monz

----- Original Message -----
From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@yahoo.com>
To: <tuning@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: [tuning] Re: comma pump files

> --- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> >
> > on the album _Fragile_ (1972, IIRC), the song
> > _I've Seen All Good People_,
>
> wrong album -- this song is on _The Yes Album_ (1971).

OK, like i said ... it's been a really long time
since i was into Yes (except for the one concert last year).

-monz

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

> oops, my bad. OK, well, at this point i haven't
> heard the song for probably more than 10 years...
>
> but for me the interesting point was that as good
> as my ears are (and they were probably even better
> at that time), i still didn't notice a pitch-shift
> until i really paid close attention.
>
> i guess that goes a long way towards explaining why
> little 'ol *comma* shifts don't bother me too much!
> :)
>
>
> -monz

i guess technically this is more like a "drift" rather than any kind
of "shift" . . . drifts don't bother me as much as shifts,
personally . . .

what happens in the song, by the way, is that the progression

I-bVII-bVI-bIII-IV

repeats a whole tone lower every time, so that each IV gets
reinterpreted as the V of the key that follows it . . .

so there's a "drift" of 9:8 every time . . . in order to eliminate
this drift, one would have to use a tuning system in which 9:8
vanishes . . . unfortunately, that wreaks havoc on the diatonic scale
and just about any other recognizable musical construct . . . gene
looked a little bit at these weird temperaments on tuning-math . . .

> hmmm ... this, and the fact that paul erlich and i
> were just talking on the phone last night about Yes,
> made me remember something very interesting that they
> did:
>
> on the album _Fragile_ (1972, IIRC), the song
> _I've Seen All Good People_, at the very end,
> all instruments except the organ drop out, and
> the voices sing the tag line in 4 (or 5?)-part harmony,
> and EACH TIME IT COMES AROUND IT'S A SEMITONE LOWER!
>
> since i have excellent relative pitch but *not*
> absolute pitch, i didn't even notice it for the
> first couple of years i listened to it, until one
> day i really listened carefully. i'd call it

There are plenty of examples of self-transposing themes.
The 'Canon per Tonos' from the Musical Offering, the
title music from Animaniacs, come to mind.

-Carl

Joseph wrote:
>Could Monz or anybody with a little extra time on their hands [just
>joking, Monz] map this out on a stave or something so I could look at
>something and see what's going on?? I would really enjoy that.

I'll put the source files in the next Scala release so you can study them.

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40329

> Joseph wrote:
> >Could Monz or anybody with a little extra time on their hands [just
> >joking, Monz] map this out on a stave or something so I could look
at
> >something and see what's going on?? I would really enjoy that.
>
> I'll put the source files in the next Scala release so you can
study them.
>
> Manuel

***Thanks, Manuel! I really loved these...

JP

manuel.op.de.coul@eon-benelux.com wrote:

> Here are three midi files with repeating comma
> pumps which I just made to test a feature:
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump81.mid (81/80)
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump225.mid (225/224)
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/midi/pump1029.mid (1029/1024)
>
> Manuel

I missed out on most of this thread. Does anyone have the details for
these progressions, ie, the
progressions in some notated form? Thanks.

Regards

--- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:

> I missed out on most of this thread. Does anyone have the details for
> these progressions, ie, the
> progressions in some notated form? Thanks.

Speaking of notated forms, does anyone have a proposed name or notation for modes of MOS, and Blackjack in particular?

I have my own way of notating chords, but I don't know if anyone else likes it. I've posted about it a bit on tuning-math.

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40387

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > I missed out on most of this thread. Does anyone have the details
for
> > these progressions, ie, the
> > progressions in some notated form? Thanks.
>
> Speaking of notated forms, does anyone have a proposed name or
notation for modes of MOS, and Blackjack in particular?
>
> I have my own way of notating chords, but I don't know if anyone
else likes it. I've posted about it a bit on tuning-math.

***Hi Gene...

Well, Blackjack is written in the Sims 72-tET notation, unless you
mean something else by this.

And for Alison: No, there has never been a post of these
progressions, unfortunately. I wanted one, but Manuel is going to
include it in his next release of Scala.

They're amazing progressions...

Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> Well, Blackjack is written in the Sims 72-tET notation, unless you
> mean something else by this.

I meant names for *modes*; the Blackjack version of Dorian, etc.

> And for Alison: No, there has never been a post of these
> progressions, unfortunately.

Didn't Manuel take the last two from something I posted?

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > Well, Blackjack is written in the Sims 72-tET notation, unless
you
> > mean something else by this.
>
> I meant names for *modes*; the Blackjack version of Dorian, etc.

here's an idea -- the blackjack scale consists of three interlaced
mohajira scales.

take the central one, pick the note nearest to your actual blackjack
tonic as the tonic of this mohajira, and use the former's "neutral
diatonic" name:

24-equal
3 4 3 3 4 3 4 Neutral Mixolydian
4 3 3 4 3 4 3 Neutral Lydian
3 3 4 3 4 3 4 Neutral Phrygian
3 4 3 4 3 4 3 Neutral Dorian
4 3 4 3 4 3 3 Neutral Hypolydian
3 4 3 4 3 3 4 Neutral Hypophrygian
4 3 4 3 3 4 3 Neutral Hypodorian

and use modifiers like "hyper-" or "hypo-" to indicate which chain
the tonic is on . . .

for example, the symmetrical mode, 252525252525252525252, which
starts on B[ in the new notation, would be hypo neutral hypolydian,
since the second note is the tonic of a 12 9 12 9 12 9 9 scale in 72
(taking every third note), and that's neutral hypolydian.

Joseph wrote:

>And for Alison: No, there has never been a post of these
>progressions, unfortunately. I wanted one, but Manuel is going to
>include it in his next release of Scala.

It can be downloaded now, the three files are pump*.seq.
They only contain ratios though, no note names.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/software/Scala_Setup.exe

>They're amazing progressions...

The septimal ones are Gene's indeed, which I've acknowledged
in the midi files.

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40394

wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning@y..., "Joseph Pehrson" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > Well, Blackjack is written in the Sims 72-tET notation, unless
> you
> > > mean something else by this.
> >
> > I meant names for *modes*; the Blackjack version of Dorian, etc.
>
> here's an idea -- the blackjack scale consists of three interlaced
> mohajira scales.
>

***Well, isn't this funny... This idea came to me too...seriously...
but I wasn't able to work it out the way Paul did...

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40407

> Joseph wrote:
>
> >And for Alison: No, there has never been a post of these
> >progressions, unfortunately. I wanted one, but Manuel is going to
> >include it in his next release of Scala.
>
> It can be downloaded now, the three files are pump*.seq.
> They only contain ratios though, no note names.
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/software/Scala_Setup.exe
>
> >They're amazing progressions...
>
> The septimal ones are Gene's indeed, which I've acknowledged
> in the midi files.
>
> Manuel

***Hi Manuel!

Sorry to be such a "dummie..." (although that was useful for
the "dummies" article :)

But, how do I load the .seq files in??

Thanks!

Joseph

No problem, typing

@edit pump81.seq

will open it in Notepad, and

example pump81.seq

will create the midi-file.

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40430

> No problem, typing
>
> @edit pump81.seq
>
> will open it in Notepad, and
>
> example pump81.seq
>
> will create the midi-file.
>
> Manuel

***Thanks, Manuel. This is working...

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...> wrote:

> for example, the symmetrical mode, 252525252525252525252, which
> starts on B[ in the new notation, would be hypo neutral hypolydian,
> since the second note is the tonic of a 12 9 12 9 12 9 9 scale in 72
> (taking every third note), and that's neutral hypolydian.

Drat. I already called that dorian on mp3.com, and it's almost impossible to change anything. They claim I can upload pictures for the two pieces I have up without them, but I have never succeeded.

Meanwhile Zbox may have died.

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_40280.html#40439

> --- In tuning@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
>
> > for example, the symmetrical mode, 252525252525252525252, which
> > starts on B[ in the new notation, would be hypo neutral
hypolydian,
> > since the second note is the tonic of a 12 9 12 9 12 9 9 scale in
72
> > (taking every third note), and that's neutral hypolydian.
>
> Drat. I already called that dorian on mp3.com, and it's almost
impossible to change anything. They claim I can upload pictures for
the two pieces I have up without them, but I have never succeeded.
>
> Meanwhile Zbox may have died.

***mp3.com has made it more and more difficult to make changes. It's
almost better to delete what you have, and upload something new
completely from "scratch..."

JP

Gene Ward Smith wrote:

> --- In tuning@y..., Alison Monteith <alison.monteith3@w...> wrote:
>
> > I missed out on most of this thread. Does anyone have the details for
> > these progressions, ie, the
> > progressions in some notated form? Thanks.
>
> Speaking of notated forms, does anyone have a proposed name or notation for modes of MOS, and Blackjack in particular?
>
> I have my own way of notating chords, but I don't know if anyone else likes it. I've posted about it a bit on tuning-math.

I can't help with the modes other than to suggest relating them to the nearest church modes and adding a descriptive prefix.
For your interest I list below Dave Keenan's suggestions for naming Blackjack triads, taken from a reply to one of my
queries last year.

C< E[ G< 4:5:6 major

F#v A C#v 1/(6:5:4) minor

F#v C#v E[ 4:6:7 subminor 7th no 3rd

A C< G< 1/(7:6:4) subminor 7th no 5th

C< G< A 1/(12:8:7) supermajor 6th no 3rd

A C#v G< 4:5:7 major subminor 7th no 5th

F#v C< E[ 1/(7:5:4) subdiminished subminor 7th no 3rd

C< E[ F#v 1/(10:8:7) major diminished

F#v A C< 5:6:7 minor subdiminished

C#v E[ G< 1/(7:6:5) subminor subdiminished

E[ G< C#v 1/(12:10:7) minor supermajor 6th no 5th

Kind Regards

AM