another performer report

Well, your intrepid reporter is again reporting on performer
reactions on microtonality. Why am I doing this?? Well, I want to
canvass the *real* answers, not what people *think* performers are
going to say and how they are or are not going to react.

This latest cellist is actually a friend of mine, Dan Barrett, who
has *always* taken an interest in contemporary music, and it an
incredibly sensitive and dedicated player. He's performed some of my
work before: 12-tET based, but with lots of glissandi and also some
special effects.

However, I mentioned that this piece was in 72-tET. The first
reaction: "oh sh*t Joe! You know how much time that's going to
take." The impression was, also, that microtonality could mess up
his playing. As he gingerly stated, "working with 31 equal and stuff
like that can f*ck up your playing!"

People really believe this. The feel that if they play microtonality
they will ruin their "normal" playing! And, they also feel that it
will take much too much time to learn to do microtonal works.

Well, I mentioned to Dan that 1)He really only had to learn THREE
microtones, 1/4 tones, 1/6 tones and 1/12 tones. He seemed to calm
down a little then. I also mentioned the practice CD which seemed to
help. Even better, I told him about the relationship of 72-tET to 12-
tET and that, basically, the things I am going to be asking him to do
are, fundamentally, alterations over his beloved 12-equal framework.

That seemed to help. He's considering the piece. He's a great
player, so I hope he decides to do it. I told him I thought it was a
*benefit* to his playing and that my experience was that my
intonation greatly *improved* for *any* kind of music after working
with microtonality.

So we will see when he gets the score whether he thinks of my new
_Blacklight_ piece as a "learning experience" or horribly, as
something that will f*ck up his playing!!

To be continued....

Joseph Pehrson

Joe,

Thoughts on your dilemma:

1. Maybe you're asking the wrong people; maybe you're living on the wrong coast; maybe it is a combination of the two...

2. What about making a list of the composers that - either anecdotally or in your opinion - have had successful performances of significant microtonal pieces, and then contacting those composers. Find out how *they* approach performers, and how *they* approach the preparation process.

3. What about some of the killer 'rising star' players at the better Institutions of Higher Learning (Music-type) in the area? Gad, conservatism rules these days, but (hopefully) youth is still more willing to take risk than old farts. That's how it works with skateboards.

4. I wasn't kidding about the recordings - maybe you need to completely alter the way you present the works! What if, instead of saying "I'd like you to play this piece of mine in 72 divisions of the octave...", you said "what do you think of this?" and popped a CD in the player (CD player, not cello player) and checked the reaction.

It is ultimately going to have to - Have To - be the music that wins over anyone, performer and listener alike. Unless you are planning on becoming independently wealthy, you aren't going to be able to pay so much that you are actually 'bribing' people! They are going to have to get so caught up in the music itself that they will *ask* to play it.

Everyone is biddy. Everyone gots too much toodoo. You won't be able to twist arms, it is going to have to be near-irresistable to them, and they won't do it just for the challenge. I really think that, judging from the player comments like take "working with 31 equal and stuff like that can f*ck up your playing!", you aren't reaching the right people.

I'm wishing you the best, and hoping your music finds it's performance voice.

Best,
Jon

(...who just came home from Tower with a CD entitled "Another Coast: New Works from the West" [Dresher, Stone, Payne, DeMarinis]...)

--- In tuning@y..., "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_39626.html#39627

> Joe,
>
> Thoughts on your dilemma:
>
> 1. Maybe you're asking the wrong people; maybe you're living on the
wrong coast; maybe it is a combination of the two...
>
> 2. What about making a list of the composers that - either
anecdotally or in your opinion - have had successful performances of
significant microtonal pieces, and then contacting those composers.
Find out how *they* approach performers, and how *they* approach the
preparation process.

***Thanks so much, Jon, for your commentary. I'm genuinely delighted
that you are so interested in this process. I agree with your
sentiments, but, you see, this entire process is a little "learning
experience" for me. For example, I never would have thought that Dan
Barrett, who is an excellent player and is *very* interested in
contemporary music (he composes wild stuff himself!) would have
thought that performing in 31-equal could possibly "ruin" his
playing! I never would have thought about that...

Now, someone might ask, why *do* you want to know about that... :)
Well, quite frankly, it leads me to be more careful in my approach,
or, at least, in my *salesmanship* of the microtonal works.

It seems to me, and, Jon, you are actually concurring in this with
many of your statements, that for many players microtonality is a
particular "challenge" perhaps even a "bother!" In order to get
these people interested, there needs to be a certain salesmanship,
and a careful approach. THAT'S what I want to learn in this process.

I'm really not so interested in having the same players play the
music over and over again. Sure, that might help *my* career, and I
*will* do that to an extent, but I'm also interested in trying to
figure out how to expand the microtonal COMMUNITY.

I can see, in order to do this, I have to take a *very careful*
approach....

Maybe I should hire an advertising firm... :)

>
> 3. What about some of the killer 'rising star' players at the
better Institutions of Higher Learning (Music-type) in the area? Gad,
conservatism rules these days, but (hopefully) youth is still more
willing to take risk than old farts. That's how it works with
skateboards.
>

***Yes, but occasionally they will forget to wear their helmets and
then they "brain" themselves on the nearest tree...

Dunno... Otto Luening was 95 years old and was teaching us
about "totalism"... We'd never heard of it. And, I believe Partch
was quite adventurous during *every* time of his life, although I
will defer to *you* on that one. Kind of depends on the person.

The point is that UNCLE JOSEPH WANTS *YOU* *YOU* *YOU* to join the
microtonal revolution, and in order to do that, we have to approach
things in a certain way. I just don't want to see but a handful of
players doing this.

> 4. I wasn't kidding about the recordings - maybe you need to
completely alter the way you present the works! What if, instead of
saying "I'd like you to play this piece of mine in 72 divisions of
the octave...", you said "what do you think of this?" and popped a CD
in the player (CD player, not cello player) and checked the reaction.
>

***Yes, I've been tempted to shove the CD there, but let's not
continue along that "track..."

However, saying the piece was in 72 equal right off the bat was
a "baddie boo..." That turned him off right away, with protests.
OHMYGOD, he probably thought he'd see all kinds of unfamiliar
hieroglyphics on the page.

Actually, he *will* be seeing all kinds of unfamiliar hieroglyphics
on the page: the Sims notation. That's one reason that Johnny
Reinhard is unenthusiastic about it. Perhaps he is right there...we
shall see!!!

Dan mentioned the idea that he'd have to "learn a different
vocabulary..." which he *will* to a degree. However, when I
mentioned there really are only THREE microtones and the system is
based on a *foundation* of 12-equal, it seemed to settle him down a
bit...

> It is ultimately going to have to - Have To - be the music that
wins over anyone, performer and listener alike. Unless you are
planning on becoming independently wealthy, you aren't going to be
able to pay so much that you are actually 'bribing' people! They are
going to have to get so caught up in the music itself that they will
*ask* to play it.
>

***Yeppir, and if I had to *pay* them big money, and even *had* it,
it would be very "faux..." A "vanity" activity. No, you're right,
they have to come of this themselves...

> Everyone is biddy. Everyone gots too much toodoo. You won't be able
to twist arms, it is going to have to be near-irresistable to them,
and they won't do it just for the challenge. I really think that,
judging from the player comments like take "working with 31 equal and
stuff like that can f*ck up your playing!", you aren't reaching the
right people.

***Well, Jon, I have to assure you that Dan Barrett *is* a "right
person." That is what makes this "special case" so interesting! I
wonder what went on, and what experiences he had with microtonal
pieces that would lead him to that conclusion...

Let me guess: somebody gave him an absolutely *impossible* 31-equal
piece to work on, he never really got it, the composer was never
really satisfied, and the system was *so* different for him than 12
that it was totally disorienting... That's a guess..

>
> I'm wishing you the best, and hoping your music finds it's
performance voice.

***Thanks for the good wishes, Jon! Actually, I'm not despairing at
all! I feel more like a *sociologist* just trying to find out what
*really is out there!*

I mean, I can always write in 12-equal if I have to, but I don't
think it will come to that. I think it's all in how we *approach*
certain players. Your idea of the carrot rather than the "stick
it"... or a nice *recording* of a great microtonal piece, and maybe a
little "rah rah" might do the trick. We really don't want to have to
go Madison Avenue... :)

>
> Best,
> Jon
>
> (...who just came home from Tower with a CD entitled "Another
Coast: New Works from the West" [Dresher, Stone, Payne, DeMarinis]...)

***Well, I haven't really spent enough time on the West Coast to know
if there really is a difference in player attitudes among the
professionals. Aside from the people who are *especially* interested
in Asian and other "exotic" kinds of music, I wonder what the
more "straight ahead" pros would think of systems like 72-tET, etc.

My guess is they would have the same reaction as people on *this*
coast... in other words, they might be interested if the product is
*presented* in the right way...

This investigation will continue... :)

It rather looks like Dan Barrett will play the piece, despite the
initial protests. I'm only hoping that he *will* and that his
encounter with microtonality through this piece will be a *joyous*
experience that he will want to repeat!

Joe

In a message dated 10/15/02 11:39:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

> It rather looks like Dan Barrett will play the piece, despite the
> initial protests. I'm only hoping that he *will* and that his
> encounter with microtonality through this piece will be a *joyous*
> experience that he will want to repeat!
>
> Joe
>

Actually, Joseph, Danny Barrett (an old friend of mine) has successfully
performed microtonal music many times with me. His quartertones are beyond
reproach. His experience playing "Natural Coos" by Winifred Keane was
certainly volatile (as in personality conflict with the composer...both from
the same town in Connecticut).

The 4/15/94 AFMM concert he played had different sections in different
tunings, including 19-tET, eighthtones, Vallotti, Kirnberger, and
quarter-comma meantone. His reaction to you was likely partly your delivery
(starting with saying there are 72 tones per octave when there are many
less). His performance was great, regardless of rehearsal friction, and the
piece came out as an independent CD by the composer. He played great and he
was paid adequately.

It is also true that Danny has had a history of back problems and posture
problems with the cello. He went through a torturous reeducation to play as
well as he does now. We used to hang back when I was at Manhattan School of
Music, and even before that. Basically, players say something to disarm you
when you shock them with something (72 tones)! So that they calculate if it
is worth their while. Danny already plays microtonally...reading cents
notation, by the way. He is not a candidate to convert, in other ways.

And frankly, Jon, I'm not sure there is a single cellist that could play
72-tET on the West coast...do you know of any? Openness is one thing, but it
is the follow through that is important...unless sociologist Joseph cares
less about the final performance (which I doubt).

best, Johnny Reinhard

I

--- In tuning@y..., "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> I really think that, judging from the player comments like take "working with 31 equal and stuff like that can f*ck up your playing!", you aren't reaching the right people.

I've mentioned it before, but in theory early-music performers might be easier to get to perform 31-equal--many already happily do 1/4-comma meantone. In fact you could simply call the score a 1/4-comma meantone score, and tell them any double sharps or flats are to be played as notated.

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
>
> And frankly, Jon, I'm not sure there is a single cellist that could
> play 72-tET on the West coast

You're probably right, Johnny: I also doubt there is a single cellist. In fact, I think there are probably a few that would be good for the piece.

> Openness is one thing, but it is the follow through that is
> important...unless sociologist Joseph cares
> less about the final performance (which I doubt).

I have *no* idea what you mean by this statement about openness. I'm sure that Joseph cares about the final performance very much.

Cheers,
Jon

In a message dated 10/16/02 2:22:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
JSZANTO@ADNC.COM writes:

> I have *no* idea what you mean by this statement about openness. I'm sure
> that Joseph cares about the final performance very much.
>
>

Which is what I am also saying. Experiments are one thing: performing a new
microtonal work in a public concert is something else. Johnny

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Experiments are one thing: performing a new
> microtonal work in a public concert is something else.

I don't think that is a great revelation, especially to those of us who have devoted our lives to performing. Again, what is your point, especially regarding Joe's situation?

Cheers,
Jon

Jon, it must be my East Coast accent that is throwing you off. In dealing
with the cellists (as with any instrument) much has to do with the delivery
to the player as per a "contractor." When the player is responding only to a
composer, they are wary. Joseph was emphasizing the sociological nature of
his ventures. I was pointing out to the majority of the list that there is a
more important game plan, which is the final product. If this still remains
opaque to you, please write me off list.

best, Johnny Reinhard

Johnny,

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:
> Jon, it must be my East Coast accent that is throwing you off.

I seem to do ok with most of my other pals back there! :)

> In dealing with the cellists (as with any instrument) much has
> to do with the delivery to the player as per a "contractor."
> When the player is responding only to a composer, they are wary.

See, I don't think that is a universal case. Many, if not most, of the people I've worked with don't have this 'wariness', and the more years go by and I keep bumping into this and similar performer 'attitudes', the more I put stock in a fundamental difference between our two countries/cultures - East and West coasts.

> Joseph was emphasizing the sociological nature of
> his ventures. I was pointing out to the majority of the list
> that there is a more important game plan, which is the final
> product.

Oh, OK. I don't agree that it is, a priori, a "more important" part of the picture, but that can certainly be one viewpoint. It is obvious that JP has years of encouraging people to play his pieces, so we know that the final product is important as well to him.

Onward,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., Afmmjr@a... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_39626.html#39636

>
> Actually, Joseph, Danny Barrett (an old friend of mine) has
successfully performed microtonal music many times with me. His
quartertones are beyond reproach.

***That's what I figured. He *did* mention he'd played microtonal
pieces before. Maybe it just took him a moment to "shift gears" and
get into it...

> The 4/15/94 AFMM concert he played had different sections in
different tunings, including 19-tET, eighthtones, Vallotti,
Kirnberger, and quarter-comma meantone. His reaction to you was
likely partly your delivery (starting with saying there are 72 tones
per octave when there are many less).

***Yes, I admit. I'll never start off like *that* again. I would
focus on the positive like, "You only have to learn a *couple* new
microtones, that you play throughout the range, and the result will
be fascinating, very close to just intonation... or some such..."

Basically, players say something to disarm you when you shock them
with something (72 tones)! So that they calculate if it is worth
their while. Danny already plays microtonally...reading cents
> notation, by the way. He is not a candidate to convert, in other
ways.
>

***Well, I'm sending him the piece, so I'm hoping he'll come
through...

> And frankly, Jon, I'm not sure there is a single cellist that could
play 72-tET on the West coast...do you know of any? Openness is one
thing, but it is the follow through that is important...unless
sociologist Joseph cares less about the final performance (which I
doubt).
>

***I guess I should explain what I mean by the "sociology" bit. I
guess I'm really meaning *EDUCATION* with this. In other words, OF
COURSE, I am *very* interested in getting good performances, but I am
*also* interested in "educating" performers relatively new to
microtonality to take a greater interest in it!

I agree very much that *approach* has *much* to do with it, and while
we needn't go Madison Avenue, the way we present the material to
players is, obviously, absolutely crucial!

JP

--- In tuning@y..., "Gene Ward Smith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_39626.html#39641

> --- In tuning@y..., "Jon Szanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> > I really think that, judging from the player comments like
take "working with 31 equal and stuff like that can f*ck up your
playing!", you aren't reaching the right people.
>
> I've mentioned it before, but in theory early-music performers
might be easier to get to perform 31-equal--many already happily do
1/4-comma meantone. In fact you could simply call the score a 1/4-
comma meantone score, and tell them any double sharps or flats are to
be played as notated.

***This would probably work, just from the *psychology* angle. It
would probably work with just "standard" pros, not even necessarily
the early music crowd...

J. Pehrson