Practical question from a microtonal newbie

Hello all,

Since most of you seem to be very familiar with the sounds of countless
microtonal intervals and chords, and able to try out the sound of any
newly-discovered or suggested interval or chord at will, I would like to
ask a practical question: how do you go about producing such sounds? I
am somewhat of a newbie when it comes to microtonality/just
intonation/etc. - I'm pretty familiar with the basic scales, tunings,
and just-derived intervals in theory, but I don't have practical access
to such sounds, beyond the Beethoven in the Temperaments CD, some Ben
Johnston microtonal piano music I've heard, and the numerous samples of
microtonal music freely available on the Internet. I have a fairly good
computer (PC) with a fairly good soundcard and a cheap four-octave MIDI
controller, along with some music software (Sibelius, Cakewalk SONAR,
ProTools FREE, Goldwave, among others), but I haven't yet found a
practical (and inexpensive) way to start playing with microtonality,
though I know there are ways.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Marc Macauley

Go to
http://pages.globetrotter.net/roule/accord.htm

Read the documentation, I think you can do what you
want to.

-Vivek
--- Marc Macauley <op132@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Since most of you seem to be very familiar with the
> sounds of countless
> microtonal intervals and chords, and able to try out
> the sound of any
> newly-discovered or suggested interval or chord at
> will, I would like to
> ask a practical question: how do you go about
> producing such sounds? I
> am somewhat of a newbie when it comes to
> microtonality/just
> intonation/etc. - I'm pretty familiar with the basic
> scales, tunings,
> and just-derived intervals in theory, but I don't
> have practical access
> to such sounds, beyond the Beethoven in the
> Temperaments CD, some Ben
> Johnston microtonal piano music I've heard, and the
> numerous samples of
> microtonal music freely available on the Internet. I
> have a fairly good
> computer (PC) with a fairly good soundcard and a
> cheap four-octave MIDI
> controller, along with some music software
> (Sibelius, Cakewalk SONAR,
> ProTools FREE, Goldwave, among others), but I
> haven't yet found a
> practical (and inexpensive) way to start playing
> with microtonality,
> though I know there are ways.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc Macauley
>
>
>

__________________________________________________
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--- In tuning@y..., "Marc Macauley" <op132@b...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38833

> Hello all,
>
> Since most of you seem to be very familiar with the sounds of
countless
> microtonal intervals and chords, and able to try out the sound of
any
> newly-discovered or suggested interval or chord at will, I would
like to
> ask a practical question: how do you go about producing such
sounds? I
> am somewhat of a newbie when it comes to microtonality/just
> intonation/etc. - I'm pretty familiar with the basic scales,
tunings,
> and just-derived intervals in theory, but I don't have practical
access
> to such sounds, beyond the Beethoven in the Temperaments CD, some
Ben
> Johnston microtonal piano music I've heard, and the numerous
samples of
> microtonal music freely available on the Internet. I have a fairly
good
> computer (PC) with a fairly good soundcard and a cheap four-octave
MIDI
> controller, along with some music software (Sibelius, Cakewalk
SONAR,
> ProTools FREE, Goldwave, among others), but I haven't yet found a
> practical (and inexpensive) way to start playing with microtonality,
> though I know there are ways.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc Macauley

***Hello Marc!

There are many ways you can go, and several people who frequent this
forum are involved in the creation of the software and theory so they
can help you!

First off, I would recommend SCALA, a wonderful *free* utility
developed by Manuel op de Coul:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/

There is a manual that manuel has associated with it that you can
print out. This is a very valuable tool for the study of scales, and
there is also a scale *archive.*

The new version of SCALA also has MIDI capabilities with your sound
card, so you can hear the sounds right away.

It's also possible, using SCALA, to make MIDI files that can retune
synths, such as the inexpensive ($150) TX81Z which is a wonderful, if
a little dated, utility for tuning. They can be found used all over
the place.

Some of the work that *I* personally did using this instrument, and
wonderful pieces by many people who frequent this forum, can be found
on the Tuning Punks:

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/72/the_tuning_punks.html

Another great tool, is the *Fractal Tune Smithy* which is a utility
developed by *another* one of our great list frequenters, Robert
Walker. (We have a bunch of mighty talented people around here!)

Robert's utility is not freeware, but it's *almost* free... I think
around $25 or such. It plays a myriad of scales, can play and
manipulate SCALA files, and can also be directed to drive other
synths, as I understand it. (I haven't worked with it yet in this
way...)

It's another great, cheap tool you should have:

http://www.tunesmithy.connectfree.co.uk/

Soon you will meet all kinds of amazing people here, and there are
too many to mention by name... but they will surface, as soon as they
get finished sunbathing.

best to you and good luck!

Joseph Pehrson

Hey Marc!

You've already had some good suggestions on the list, especially some of the advice from Joe P. I thought I'd let you know that there is a 'sister' list to this one, called Making Microtonal Music:

/makemicromusic/

We started it for people who wanted to focus specifically on the nuts and bolts of turning microtonal ideas into microtonal music. You'll find both authors of Scala and FTS there (though Manuel and Robert read this list as well), and if you take time to go through the archives you'll find plenty of advice (the list is just over a year old) on how to take what you have and start creating some new music.

Don't ditch this list, but take a look over at MMM and see what you think. You're welcome to post your initial message over there in case some of the members no longer subscribe to this, the main tuning list.

Cheers,
Jon
(ListMom of MMM)

hey Joe,

> Soon you will meet all kinds of amazing people here, and there are
> too many to mention by name... but they will surface, as soon as they
> get finished sunbathing.
>
> best to you and good luck!
>
> Joseph Pehrson

OK, i'm surfacing ... but only to let you know that i'm
not expecting any rain around here for *at least* another
3 months! ... and that's being optimistic; no significant
rainfall here for well over a year now. ;-)

every day, the beach beckons ...

-monz

--- In tuning@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38840

> hey Joe,
>
> > Soon you will meet all kinds of amazing people here, and there
are
> > too many to mention by name... but they will surface, as soon as
they
> > get finished sunbathing.
> >
> > best to you and good luck!
> >
> > Joseph Pehrson
>
>
> OK, i'm surfacing ... but only to let you know that i'm
> not expecting any rain around here for *at least* another
> 3 months! ... and that's being optimistic; no significant
> rainfall here for well over a year now. ;-)
>
> every day, the beach beckons ...
>
>
> -monz

Hi Monz!

Sounds like you're *SURFING*, not *SURFACING...*

best,

Joe

Joe Pehrson wrote:

> Hi Monz!
>
> Sounds like you're *SURFING*, not *SURFACING...*

OK, ya got me there! so i traded in web surfing
for real surfing. :)

-monz

Marc Macauley wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Since most of you seem to be very familiar with the sounds of countless
> microtonal intervals and chords, and able to try out the sound of any
> newly-discovered or suggested interval or chord at will, I would like to
> ask a practical question: how do you go about producing such sounds? I
> am somewhat of a newbie when it comes to microtonality/just
> intonation/etc. - I'm pretty familiar with the basic scales, tunings,
> and just-derived intervals in theory, but I don't have practical access
> to such sounds, beyond the Beethoven in the Temperaments CD, some Ben
> Johnston microtonal piano music I've heard, and the numerous samples of
> microtonal music freely available on the Internet. I have a fairly good
> computer (PC) with a fairly good soundcard and a cheap four-octave MIDI
> controller, along with some music software (Sibelius, Cakewalk SONAR,
> ProTools FREE, Goldwave, among others), but I haven't yet found a
> practical (and inexpensive) way to start playing with microtonality,
> though I know there are ways.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
> Marc Macauley
>

I'd recommend building your own microtonal musical instrument. That way you don't have to
subsidise Bill Gates and the 12 tet corporate conspiracy every time you want to make music. : - )

Kind Regards

Hello Marc:

Regarding your desire to get access to microtonal sounds which
you can listen to as contrasted with just reading about them and
doing the math, I produced a three hour cassette set (four 45 min.
sides on two cassettes with accompanying scores and written materials)
consisting of narrated demonstrations of a number of just intervals
and chords, together with contrasts between somewhat different intervals
(e.g. melodic chromatic semitone 25/24 versus melodic diatonic semitone
16/15, contrast between the two note intervals 6/5 just minor third and 7/6
septimal minor third, demonstrations of some 11-ratio chords in different
inversions - 7:9:11, 9:11:14, 11:14:18 - just to name a few of the dozens
of demonstrations and musical examples on the cassette set).

The cassette set is entitled "The Sounds of Just Intonation" and it
may be purchased from the Just Intonation Network for $25.00 (members of
the Just Intonation Network - $20.00). Their address is:

Just Intonation Network
535 Stevenson Street
San Francisco, CA 94103

Phone: (415) 864-8123

E-mail: jinetwk@dnai.com

Web Site: http://www.dnai.com/~jinetwk

If you have questions regarding this cassette set or other materials
available from the Just Intonation Network, I believe Dave Doty there
would be happy to point you in the right directions.

I do not know if you have access to a piano which you could have
tuned the way you want, but if you do, it could be tuned in any of a
number of ways such that quite a few (but limited) striking non-equal
tempered intervals and chords could be played on it, as more and more
piano tuners are now able to tune pianos to any specification requested
by their clients as long as the strings are not tuned more than about
+ or - 20 cents from their usual (equal tempered) pitch.

I believe there's a lot of stuff out there beyond what I've
mentioned if you search for it . Good Luck!

Dave Hill Borrego Springs, CA

Hello, there, Marc Macauley, Dave Hill, and everyone -- your remarks about
getting started, Dave, not only make available a fine source of just
intonation sounds, but remind me of your many contributions, and of the
excitement I can now share about some of the ratios you mention like
9:11:14, a really pleasant kind of sonority I was playing around with a
bit at the keyboard today (in a tempered version, I must admit).

People like you and George Secor, for example, have helped to show the
way for many relative newcomers like myself to the world of
alternative tunings. There are many "rediscoveries," sometimes taking
on different colors and flavors because approach the same sonorities
from a range of stylistic viewpoints.

One nice starting point for someone just coming into this xenharmonic
area might be to try your just intonation sampler and to tune a
synthesizer or sound card with a MIDI keyboard using a program like
Scala, which can support a vast range of just and tempered tunings
alike, including the archive of scales available to go with it.

My own approach is to use a Yamaha TX-802 synthesizer with two regular
MIDI keyboards of four octaves each. This makes possible tunings of up
to 24 notes per octave with a usual arrangement of octaves on each
keyboard. Often 24-note tunings are my favorite, with identical
patterns of steps and intervals on each of the two keyboards, with a
certain convenient distance between the keyboards.

For the styles of music I often practice, having regular fifths and
fourths on each keyboard in the usual places can make things simpler;
mixing notes and intervals from the two keyboards brings about new
sonorities.

While going beyond 12 notes per octave opens extra possibilities, I'd
want to stress that basic 12-note tunings have an immense variety to
offer in themselves: the Scala archive has lots of examples.

Interestingly, there are at least a couple of different ways to start
out in exploring these tunings.

One approach, if you have a favorite stylistic tradition, is to see
which tunings seem to fit your tradition, or give it a different color
that you like. Thus I started with Pythagorean tuning for 13th-14th
century medieval European music, and meantone for 16th-century
Renaissance music.

At this point I was simply playing familiar music in the standard
historical tunings, a new experience for me but also a restoration of
the period practice rather than some radically innovative
interpretation. Of course, when unfamiliar, the traditional can be
quite refreshingly new.

Gradually, I found myself involved in a "branching out" process --
trying "new things" in traditional tunings, or new tunings in which I
seem to have a certain tendency often to try traditional things.

One of the steps, for example, was setting up a 24-note meantone
tuning basically a subset of the 31-note system of Nicola Vicentino
(1555), one of the great European xenharmonicists. It was very
exciting to hear some of the cadences he wrote and described almost
450 years ago, and to experiment with some progressions.

Also, I had started out with an interest in a 24-note Pythagorean
tuning to approximate some ratios of 7 -- and found that one branch of
my tunings involves two 12-note Pythagorean tunings at various
distances between the keyboards. These systems combine the old and the
new. Each keyboard in itself might be identical to an early 12-note
instrument from the 14th century; but mixing notes from the two
keyboards is something else again.

While I experimented with a "new" system, 17-tone equal temperament,
very early on, it took a couple of years before I became more
generally focused on what has become one of my main interests: tunings
with fifths tempered wider than pure, going a bit outside of
historical European practice (although some of the resulting types of
intervals might have occurred in the free vocal intonation of some
medieval European ensembles).

Since then, I've also become fascinated with various ancient Greek
tunings based on integer ratios, and also medieval Near Eastern
tunings and scales which I sometimes mix with medieval European types
of styles in a kind of "fusion."

While my approach tends to start from certain stylistic or historical
premises, that isn't the only way people might go about this: someone
might simply hear something on Dave Hill's recording, for example,
which sounds really beautiful or impressive, and decide to explore
some of the intervals or scales involved.

The most important processes seem to be listening, and maybe singing
or playing, and seeing how something sounds, whether it attracts a
given person's tastes at a given point, and if so, how it might be
used or creatively varied.

Theory is helpful, but practice and experience are where lots of the
learning happens, with theory as a tool for summing up some of one's
experience, and considering what else one might like to experience, or
why two styles of music vary and what some of the qualities of each
might be -- and maybe how the two might be combined, or lead to a
third kind of alternative.

These are just a few impressions, and to I'd like to say to Marc, "Welcome
to the world of alternative tunings."

Most appreciatively,

Margo Schulter
mschulter@value.net

Well, hello again Margo!

I guess it's no surprise to see you back in action, now that your major article has appeared in the recent issue of "1/1"!

Good to have you back, and nice article too - what I could understand of it... :)

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "Marc Macauley" <op132@b...> wrote:

> Suggestions?

Scala can take a file and sequence it into a microtonal midi file. Timidity can take a microtonal midi file and render it as a microtonal wave file. Both are freeware.

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38861

> --- In tuning@y..., "Marc Macauley" <op132@b...> wrote:
>
> > Suggestions?
>
> Scala can take a file and sequence it into a microtonal midi file.
Timidity can take a microtonal midi file and render it as a
microtonal wave file. Both are freeware.

***I knew that Scala could turn a *tuning* file into a MIDI file that
could tune a sequencer, but how does one get Scala to actually work
as a *sequencer* itself?? Is that possible?

Thanks!

J. Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
> > Scala can take a file and sequence it into a microtonal midi file.
> Timidity can take a microtonal midi file and render it as a
> microtonal wave file. Both are freeware.
>
> ***I knew that Scala could turn a *tuning* file into a MIDI file that
> could tune a sequencer, but how does one get Scala to actually work
> as a *sequencer* itself?? Is that possible?

Joe, I think Gene was a little (uncharacteristically) loose with the description. Scala can take a midi sequence file and apply a microtonal tuning to it and render a new midi file with the microtonal alterations. Timidity can (apparantly) turn a midi sequence file into a .wav file (there is nothing intrinsically microtonal or non-microtonal about a .wav file, it is simply an audio file).

I welcome corrections if I'm wrong about any of the above...

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:

> Joe, I think Gene was a little (uncharacteristically) loose with the description. Scala can take a midi sequence file and apply a microtonal tuning to it and render a new midi file with the microtonal alterations.

What I meant was that Scala can take a Scala sequence file "*.seq",
and render a corresponding midi file. The tuning of the Scala file is up to you; it can be expressed in terms of an equal division of an octave, in terms of cents, or in terms of rational numbers. The only thing possibly keeping it from complete generality is getting octave
stretching to work, but it's likely Manuel knows how to do that.

>The only thing possibly keeping it from complete generality is getting
octave
>stretching to work, but it's likely Manuel knows how to do that.

The "equal" statement in a .seq file can take an optional second
parameter for the size of the octave.
Or it uses the current scale, in absence of a scale defining statement
in the file.

I've made another addition, you can click on John Chalmers' triangular
tetrachord diagram to select and play a tetrachord, go to
Analyse->Tetrachord player.

The entry of irregular temperaments (or modified meantones) also has
been made easier, go to File->New->Temperament.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/software/Scala_Setup.exe

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38866

> --- In tuning@y..., "jonszanto" <JSZANTO@A...> wrote:
>
> > Joe, I think Gene was a little (uncharacteristically) loose with
the description. Scala can take a midi sequence file and apply a
microtonal tuning to it and render a new midi file with the
microtonal alterations.
>
> What I meant was that Scala can take a Scala sequence file "*.seq",
> and render a corresponding midi file. The tuning of the Scala file
is up to you; it can be expressed in terms of an equal division of an
octave, in terms of cents, or in terms of rational numbers. The only
thing possibly keeping it from complete generality is getting octave
> stretching to work, but it's likely Manuel knows how to do that.

***Thanks Gene and Jon!

Well, I guess I really don't know what a scala .seq file is! I've
never worked with them. Off the top, I'm not finding it in manuel's
manual, either.

What exactly is it??

Thanks!

Joe

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38867

> >The only thing possibly keeping it from complete generality is
getting
> octave
> >stretching to work, but it's likely Manuel knows how to do that.
>
> The "equal" statement in a .seq file can take an optional second
> parameter for the size of the octave.
> Or it uses the current scale, in absence of a scale defining
statement
> in the file.
>
> I've made another addition, you can click on John Chalmers'
triangular
> tetrachord diagram to select and play a tetrachord, go to
> Analyse->Tetrachord player.
>
> The entry of irregular temperaments (or modified meantones) also
has
> been made easier, go to File->New->Temperament.
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/software/Scala_Setup.exe
>
> Manuel

***Hello Manuel!

For some reason, when reading your message from the Web, it looks
like you are using a 1 point typeface! My nose is, unfortunately,
bumping the screen.

(??)

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., manuel.op.de.coul@e... wrote:

> The "equal" statement in a .seq file can take an optional second
> parameter for the size of the octave.

In cents?

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> Well, I guess I really don't know what a scala .seq file is!

I have some old examples in my files here of Materna (America the Beautiful) in various versions. I've moved them to

/tuning/files/Gene/scala/

Yes in cents, or as a ratio, same as entering a pitch.

I'll try to prevent font sizes coming into my mail.

Manuel

There are other examples in the Scala directory, C:\scala205 if
that's where you installed it. For help, do "help example".
The format is midi oriented, not at the level of a score.

Manuel

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38873

> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > Well, I guess I really don't know what a scala .seq file is!
>
> I have some old examples in my files here of Materna (America the
Beautiful) in various versions. I've moved them to
>
> /tuning/files/Gene/scala/

***Thanks, Gene!

So, what does one do with these text files, turn them into MIDI
somehow??

Thanks!

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> So, what does one do with these text files, turn them into MIDI
> somehow??

(1) Start Scala

(2) Load a scale using "Open scale" under the File menu (it doesn't matter which scale you open, since it isn't used.)

(3) Invoke "Transform sequence to midi file" under the Tools menu

(4) This will ask you for a name for the midi file; give one, and the file will be created very quickly

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38833.html#38877

> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > So, what does one do with these text files, turn them into MIDI
> > somehow??
>
> (1) Start Scala
>
> (2) Load a scale using "Open scale" under the File menu (it doesn't
matter which scale you open, since it isn't used.)
>
> (3) Invoke "Transform sequence to midi file" under the Tools menu
>
> (4) This will ask you for a name for the midi file; give one, and
the file will be created very quickly

***Thanks, Gene. I'll try that...

Joseph