Tuning of Andean woodwinds?

I have a zampona made by a friend who is an indigenous man from
Bolivia. He tuned it to a twelve note chromatic scale. I believe he
did this because he played music with a band in Los Angeles and
adapted it to the "Rose Bowl", where he played, purposes. I am
wondering what tuning system the zamponas down there are on.

Additionally I am curious about the tuning of latin american
indigenous people, partly because I have never heard anything about them.

Todd

> Hello Todd!

Erv wilson has a large collection of flutes from south america collected by his brothers among others. Having equally
distant holes they tuned to subharmonic scales often with the exit whole tuned to a 3/2 of one of the subharmonic tones. sub 11
is very common and 13 does occur. you might want to look at -

The Greek Aulos
by Kathleen Schlesinger

at least for the details on construction and modes of such scales
it is out of print abut many libraries have it.

>
> From: "booeyschewy" <booeyschewy@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Tuning of Andean woodwinds?
>
> I have a zampona made by a friend who is an indigenous man from
> Bolivia. He tuned it to a twelve note chromatic scale. I believe he
> did this because he played music with a band in Los Angeles and
> adapted it to the "Rose Bowl", where he played, purposes. I am
> wondering what tuning system the zamponas down there are on.
>
> Additionally I am curious about the tuning of latin american
> indigenous people, partly because I have never heard anything about them.
>
> Todd
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

Hi!

Thanks for the help! How would I go about constructing such a scale
in scala?

Todd

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > Hello Todd!
>
> Erv wilson has a large collection of flutes from south america
collected by his brothers among others. Having equally
> distant holes they tuned to subharmonic scales often with the exit
whole tuned to a 3/2 of one of the subharmonic tones. sub 11
> is very common and 13 does occur. you might want to look at -
>
> The Greek Aulos
> by Kathleen Schlesinger
>
> at least for the details on construction and modes of such scales
> it is out of print abut many libraries have it.
>
>
> >
> > From: "booeyschewy" <booeyschewy@y...>
> > Subject: Tuning of Andean woodwinds?
> >
> > I have a zampona made by a friend who is an indigenous man from
> > Bolivia. He tuned it to a twelve note chromatic scale. I believe
he
> > did this because he played music with a band in Los Angeles and
> > adapted it to the "Rose Bowl", where he played, purposes. I am
> > wondering what tuning system the zamponas down there are on.
> >
> > Additionally I am curious about the tuning of latin american
> > indigenous people, partly because I have never heard anything
about them.
> >
> > Todd
> >
>
> -- Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., "booeyschewy" <booeyschewy@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38738.html#38741

> Hi!
>
> Thanks for the help! How would I go about constructing such a scale
> in scala?
>
>
> Todd
>

***Hi Todd,

It's not very difficult to create scales in SCALA. You can either
enter in *fractions* for ratios or, using a decimal point, enter the
values in in cents.

So I guess you are asking more for such details on this scale. I'm
sure Kraig can figure this out for you.

best,

Joe Pehrson

>

Joe & booey
I know nothing about scala so didn't answer but if scale details are wanted i just dug them
out (25 year old mapped to 31) but will scan and put up

>
> From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> Subject: Re: Tuning of Andean woodwinds?
>
> --- In tuning@y..., "booeyschewy" <booeyschewy@y...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_38738.html#38741
>
> > Hi!
> >
> > Thanks for the help! How would I go about constructing such a scale
> > in scala?
> >
> >
> > Todd
> >
>
> ***Hi Todd,
>
> It's not very difficult to create scales in SCALA. You can either
> enter in *fractions* for ratios or, using a decimal point, enter the
> values in in cents.
>
> So I guess you are asking more for such details on this scale. I'm
> sure Kraig can figure this out for you.
>
> best,
>
> Joe Pehrson
>

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > Hello Todd!
>
> Erv wilson has a large collection of flutes from south america
collected by his brothers among others. Having equally
> distant holes they tuned to subharmonic scales often with the exit
whole tuned to a 3/2 of one of the subharmonic tones. sub 11
> is very common and 13 does occur. you might want to look at -

Bob Wendell:

My understanding based on hearsay from Argentine musicians is that as
Kraig says, the finger holes are equidistant, or that is, the
indigenous melodic scale was a "whole-tone" scale based on seven
instead of six notes. So it is essentially 7-tone ET in my
understanding.

This is not based on any textual authority, however. It so happens my
wife is Argentine and I have musicians, one professional who played
with both Astor Piazzola and Gato Barbieri at different times, among
my Argentine in-laws. I own a couple of quenas hand-made for me by a
famous quenista and recordings of Andean music, which I dearly love.
I have been to Argentina many times and speak the language almost on
a par with an educated native.

However, and this is a BIG however, the way most Andean music is
played today ("El Condor Pasa", recorded by Simon and Garfunkle using
two Argentine quenistas or quena players in the studio, is a typical
example) the pitches are BENT by the players to go with 12-ET guitars
and charangos (ukelele-type instruments with gut double strings about
the same size as a mandolin with an armadillo shell as the body and a
wooden belly glued onto it). I have no clue as to how they tune
zamponas these days (sometimes also called "panpipas incaicas" or
Incan panpipes).

Strangely, they still make the quena holes equidistant and you can
hear that bias often in the melodies. I guess this allows them to
bend to any key, since the difference between whole- and half-steps
is created by the player. The Andean melodies, like "El Condor Pasa"
tend to be pentatonic modes of one kind or another. By that I mean
like CDEGA, and its modal rotations. With the slight 7-tET bias often
evident in the tuning, it creates an rather unique melodic flavor
that is quite haunting.

What is now known in Argentina as "Andean" music is actually European-
influenced Incan- and-other-indigenous-people-inpsired melodies over
12-ET harmonies and a lot of Latin rhythmic influence. It is a little
like some of our Afro-American traditions such as the blues in its
mixed but authentic folk evolution.

There are a few bands in the Andes, however, who, in addition to
playing this more common Andean music, still throw in some older,
purer Incan and other indigenous music. It is powerful stuff, but not
harmonic. It is melodic-rhythmic and uses very different melodic
techniques, warbling, glissing, unusual trill-like ornaments
and "yodeling" sounds on the quenas, etc. and other very "strange"
but wonderful stuff.

Hope this helps shed some light.

Cheers to all! Been very busy with our own musical and other vital
endeavors here locally.

Sincerely,
Bob

Robert!
Equidistant holes produce a subharmonic series. If one hears a whole tone scale it is probably
sub 10-9-8-7 maybe even the 11 on top. the seventh tone is tune to a 3/2 of one of the
subharmonics giving you something to play a 7 tone scale. Erv has spent countless hours measuring
the tunings as well as myself going over there to hear them. Listen to the one in Delusion given
to Harry by Erv. it is not 7 et by any stretch of the imagination. Argentina is a different
musical culture.

>
> Subject: Re: Tuning of Andean woodwinds?
>
> --- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:
> > > Hello Todd!
> >
> > Erv wilson has a large collection of flutes from south america
> collected by his brothers among others. Having equally
> > distant holes they tuned to subharmonic scales often with the exit
> whole tuned to a 3/2 of one of the subharmonic tones. sub 11
> > is very common and 13 does occur. you might want to look at -
>
> Bob Wendell:
>
> My understanding based on hearsay from Argentine musicians is that as
> Kraig says, the finger holes are equidistant, or that is, the
> indigenous melodic scale was a "whole-tone" scale based on seven
> instead of six notes. So it is essentially 7-tone ET in my
> understanding.

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm