Werntz again

>Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:30:46 -0000
> From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
> Subject: Reflections on Julia Werntz article
>
> REFLECTIONS ON JULIA WERNTZ ARTICLE (Reflections on Perspectives)
>
Much of this repeats my email from a long time ago. It's funny how, once
people have read the PNM article they see the light about Ms Werntz. I
found her responses both irritating and specious. Her attitude towards
others was distincly 'school mistress', and suggested that we were a load
of microtonal wasters who spent our time discussing ratios and stuff in
some kind of vaccum.

Despite the attempts of some, including Margo, to be 'nice', and to make
positive comments, Ms Werntz was frequenctly critical. I was not hiding
behind Margo when I commented on Ms Werntz' critical comments on Margo's
first response, stating that she (Margo) had misunderstood her.

It seems we all misunderstand her - or we understand her all too well.

I vote for an inclusive approach to microtones, and I am quite happy to
have Ms Werntz in the forum - so long as she, like everyone else, adheres
to the rule that statements like:

'I am right you are wrong'

is _definitely_ /out/.

Mark

> "Mark Gould" <mark.gould@argonet.co.uk>
>
>> Message: 20
>> Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:30:46 -0000
>> From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@rcn.com>
>> Subject: Reflections on Julia Werntz article
>>
>> REFLECTIONS ON JULIA WERNTZ ARTICLE (Reflections on Perspectives)
>>
> Much of this repeats my email from a long time ago. It's funny > how, once
> people have read the PNM article they see the light about Ms Werntz. I
> found her responses both irritating and specious. Her attitude towards
> others was distincly 'school mistress', and suggested that we > were a load
> of microtonal wasters who spent our time discussing ratios and stuff in
> some kind of vaccum.
>
> Despite the attempts of some, including Margo, to be 'nice', > and to make
> positive comments, Ms Werntz was frequenctly critical. I was not hiding
> behind Margo when I commented on Ms Werntz' critical comments > on Margo's
> first response, stating that she (Margo) had misunderstood her.

> It seems we all misunderstand her - or we understand her all too well.

Not me. I understood the conception she is trying to convey quite easily, and that just from reading the abstract to her dissertation. She has been extremely gracious in her responses here. Suggesting that someone has misunderstood you fortunately does *not* equate to saying 'I am right and you are wrong'.

> I vote for an inclusive approach to microtones,

I have not got the least impression that Julia is opposed to this. If anything I think her approach to study and work with harmonics is sufficiently different from the dominant character(s) of this forum that it leads to summary dismissal (often at great pains) of her ideas. The reason for my taking the time to comment on all this and try to offer a clarification, is that much of Julia's approach seems to resemble my own. Hey maybe someday I'll write a dissertation and tick all of you off too !:-)

> and I am quite happy to
> have Ms Werntz in the forum - so long as she, like everyone > else, adheres
> to the rule that statements like:
>
> 'I am right you are wrong'
>
> is _definitely_ /out/.

I think it's been more of the other way round here, mostly without most of you realising it.

I think you all can see the logic when I say :

1) The notion of microtonal referring to simply non-12ED2:1 (just 'quarter tones' or intervals smaller than the 12th root of 2, as some would have you believe) is an outmoded and flawed understanding.

2) 12ED2:1 is microtonal.

3) If so, can you now see the logic of my suggesting that what Ms. Werntz may aspire to is a 'truly significant form of Xenharmonics' ?

> Mark

Sincerely,
Joel

--- In tuning@y..., Joel Rodrigues <joelrodrigues@m...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38380.html#38393

>
> > It seems we all misunderstand her - or we understand her all too
well.
>
> Not me. I understood the conception she is trying to convey
> quite easily, and that just from reading the abstract to her
> dissertation. She has been extremely gracious in her responses
> here. Suggesting that someone has misunderstood you fortunately
> does *not* equate to saying 'I am right and you are wrong'.
>
>
> > I vote for an inclusive approach to microtones,
>
> I have not got the least impression that Julia is opposed to
> this. If anything I think her approach to study and work with
> harmonics is sufficiently different from the dominant
> character(s) of this forum that it leads to summary dismissal
> (often at great pains) of her ideas. The reason for my taking
> the time to comment on all this and try to offer a
> clarification, is that much of Julia's approach seems to
> resemble my own. Hey maybe someday I'll write a dissertation and
> tick all of you off too !:-)
>

***Naaah. Lots of people have written dissertations. *I've* written
a dissertation. The question is whether her ideas hold up.

Besides, she has not been gracious *at all* on this forum. At the
very *beginning* she was dismissive. It was a *preemptive* strike by
somebody who obviously doesn't want any criticism.

Joseph Pehrson

--- In tuning@y..., Joel Rodrigues <joelrodrigues@m...> wrote:

> She has been extremely gracious in her responses
> here. Suggesting that someone has misunderstood you fortunately
> does *not* equate to saying 'I am right and you are wrong'.

I tried to get her to define her terms lay things out in the form of a coherent argument, and I got dismissive contempt in reply, so I'm not convinced, for obvious reasons, that this has or can be done.

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:

> ***Naaah. Lots of people have written dissertations. *I've* written
> a dissertation. The question is whether her ideas hold up.

One of the things you are supposed to be willing to do with a PhD dissertation is to defend it, including to people outside of the department. The idea is to maintain standards, though in his highly specialized era that becomes more difficult.

--- In tuning@y..., "Mark Gould" <mark.gould@a...> wrote:
> >Message: 20
> > Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 21:30:46 -0000
> > From: "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...>
> > Subject: Reflections on Julia Werntz article
> >
> > REFLECTIONS ON JULIA WERNTZ ARTICLE (Reflections on Perspectives)
> >
> Much of this repeats my email from a long time ago. It's funny how,
once
> people have read the PNM article they see the light about Ms
Werntz. I
> found her responses both irritating and specious. Her attitude
towards
> others was distincly 'school mistress', and suggested that we were
a load
> of microtonal wasters who spent our time discussing ratios and
stuff in
> some kind of vaccum.
>
> Despite the attempts of some, including Margo, to be 'nice', and to
make
> positive comments, Ms Werntz was frequenctly critical. I was not
hiding
> behind Margo when I commented on Ms Werntz' critical comments on
Margo's
> first response, stating that she (Margo) had misunderstood her.
>
> It seems we all misunderstand her - or we understand her all too
well.
>
> I vote for an inclusive approach to microtones, and I am quite
happy to
> have Ms Werntz in the forum - so long as she, like everyone else,
adheres
> to the rule that statements like:
>
> 'I am right you are wrong'
>
> is _definitely_ /out/.
>
> Mark

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., Joel Rodrigues <joelrodrigues@m...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_38380.html#38393
>
> >
> > > It seems we all misunderstand her - or we understand her all
too well.
> >
> > Not me. I understood the conception she is trying to convey
> > quite easily, and that just from reading the abstract to her
> > dissertation. She has been extremely gracious in her responses
> > here. Suggesting that someone has misunderstood you fortunately
> > does *not* equate to saying 'I am right and you are wrong'.
> >
> > > I vote for an inclusive approach to microtones,
> >
> > I have not got the least impression that Julia is opposed to
> > this. If anything I think her approach to study and work with
> > harmonics is sufficiently different from the dominant
> > character(s) of this forum that it leads to summary dismissal
> > (often at great pains) of her ideas. The reason for my taking
> > the time to comment on all this and try to offer a
> > clarification, is that much of Julia's approach seems to
> > resemble my own. Hey maybe someday I'll write a dissertation and
> > tick all of you off too !:-)
> >
>
>
> ***Naaah. Lots of people have written dissertations. *I've*
written
> a dissertation. The question is whether her ideas hold up.
>
> Besides, she has not been gracious *at all* on this forum. At the
> very *beginning* she was dismissive. It was a *preemptive* strike
by
> somebody who obviously doesn't want any criticism.
>
> Joseph Pehrson

I have the feeling that it's getting a little hot in here and that
maybe we should all take some time to cool off a bit, because this is
really beginning to get counter-productive.

Someone like Julia, who's been marching to a different drummer (or
harmonizing to a different harmony book) than the overwhelming
majority of those in this forum, is bound to feel some hostility in
coming here to defend her ideas, or at least to make them better
understood. And we, in turn, if we hope to be better understood by
her (and by others with differing viewpoints), should keep diplomacy
in mind in our role as ambassadors for our individual and collective
viewpoints. (Keep in mind that most of us hope that one day we might
be understood by those in the musical mainstream, so we should
approach this situation with that in mind.)

I recall that, several months after I showed up on the tuning list, I
expressed a difference of opinion about a couple of things and felt
the heat go up suddenly (this for someone in basic agreement with the
majority view here). I think that I would have to multiply that
feeling many times over to understand how Julia must feel about some
of the things that we have been saying about her ideas (and now about
her). I would conclude that all of this can get a bit overwhelming,
and in our eagerness to express our ideas, we sometimes come across
as a bunch of unruly kids who want quick answers or want to prove
that we're right.

In confronting ideas or opinions different from my own, I have found
that it often takes some time to think through my responses, and the
interactive nature of this medium tends to make that difficult, if
not impossible. (I recall that at one point several months ago I
started making comments "shooting from the hip," which got me into a
little bit of trouble.) If Julia has come across to anyone as
a 'school mistress,' perhaps it's because that's an appropriate way
to treat a bunch of kids that are ganging up on you.

I strongly advise that we follow the example of Paul Erlich, who has
made the effort to offer Julia some constructive criticism, tempered
with respect for her ideas and appreciation for her talent and
abilities. Such an attitude serves to promote a better understanding
of one another's values and goals, while maintaining valuable lines
of communication and even encouragement.

And let's cut her some slack and give her enough time to sort things
out. After all, we could all benefit from a little more
understanding.

--George

love / joy / peace / patience / kindness ...

George,

Well spoken, good sir! It was primarily for this reason that I decided "no need" for me to add to the chorus (and as I wrote elsewhere, most of my thoughts had been covered somewhat).

It *is* a tough call on when to stop "piling on", because a larger group has become, all at once, aware of something that may bug them. Never a good reason for incivility, that is for sure. And it does us no harm for a calm voice, like yours, to make the simple request to watch our behavior.

Cheers,
Jon

--- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38380.html#38432

> --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
>
> > ***Naaah. Lots of people have written dissertations. *I've*
written
> > a dissertation. The question is whether her ideas hold up.
>
> One of the things you are supposed to be willing to do with a PhD
dissertation is to defend it, including to people outside of the
department. The idea is to maintain standards, though in his highly
specialized era that becomes more difficult.

***Personally, I would think that our Tuning List forum would be a
great *asset* to just about anybody in the field, in terms of
critiquing things...

The one thing that a person *can't* seem to do on this list is to
come to it with preconceptions and unbending, defined ideas... Other
people have thought about these things before, obviously, and some in
greater depth...

JP

--- In tuning@y..., "gdsecor" <gdsecor@y...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38380.html#38451

> I strongly advise that we follow the example of Paul Erlich, who
has
> made the effort to offer Julia some constructive criticism,
tempered
> with respect for her ideas and appreciation for her talent and
> abilities. Such an attitude serves to promote a better
understanding
> of one another's values and goals, while maintaining valuable lines
> of communication and even encouragement.
>
> And let's cut her some slack and give her enough time to sort
things
> out. After all, we could all benefit from a little more
> understanding.
>
> --George
>
> love / joy / peace / patience / kindness ...

***Thanks so much, George, for your helpful post, and as you will see
from some of my recent posts that after some reflection (and getting
out of New York for a bit) I have come to the conclusion that I erred
in getting rather *excited* about these things. So I should
apologize to Julia for that.

I guess the only point of slight disagreement with your post is the
idea that the people on this list have a set or shared viewpoint of
one kind or another.

Frankly, Christopher Bailey writes music verging on the atonal, I,
myself wrote such music in my earlier days, and Joe Monzo is a great
Schoenberg supporter and, I believe, also has works in an atonal
idiom.

So, really, this list is quite varied and it seems to me represents a
pretty broad spectrum...

Joseph

--- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@y..., "genewardsmith" <genewardsmith@j...> wrote:
>
> /tuning/topicId_38380.html#38432
>
> > --- In tuning@y..., "jpehrson2" <jpehrson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > ***Naaah. Lots of people have written dissertations. *I've*
> written
> > > a dissertation. The question is whether her ideas hold up.
> >
> > One of the things you are supposed to be willing to do with a PhD
> dissertation is to defend it, including to people outside of the
> department. The idea is to maintain standards, though in his highly
> specialized era that becomes more difficult.
>
> ***Personally, I would think that our Tuning List forum would be a
> great *asset* to just about anybody in the field, in terms of
> critiquing things...
>
> The one thing that a person *can't* seem to do on this list is to
> come to it with preconceptions and unbending, defined ideas...
Other
> people have thought about these things before, obviously, and some
in
> greater depth...

Yes, the Tuning List forum can be a great asset in helping one to
think carefully and rigorously, and it can even lead us in directions
that we would not have otherwise considered. I came here with a
notation proposal, and, with Dave Keenan's help, it's become much
more versatile and comprehensive that I ever would have imagined.
(Some day soon we'll have everything squared away so that a final
presentation can be given.) But we need to be more than just that.

Consider the circumstances of the present situation:

1) Julia Werntz's ideas were being challenged before she showed up
here. Anyone with any real convictions is going to have strongly
held ideas, and all of us have preconceptions about others that are
to some extent inaccurate. Should she have rid herself of those
before coming here and, if so, how and where?

2) Should we have rid ourselves of our misconceptions about her
before she showed up here and, if so, how?

3) She came as a guest. Hospitality (not hostile engagement) should
have been our first priority.

4) She came here as one having very different ideas about
microtonality than most of us do -- a stranger in a foreign land.
Preconceptions and misconceptions are inevitable, but they run in
both directions -- it is all too easy to see them in someone else,
yet fail to seem them in ourselves. Recognition of this fact is
essential to successful diplomacy.

5) We vigorously challenged her misconceptions about us while
barraging her with our own misconceptions about her. So what did we
expect to get in return?

Treat your guests with gentleness and respect, and they will return
the favor. First establish your common ground; then seek to
understand your differences. You don't have to resolve any of them.
(Not all of us here agree about everything, do we?) But we should at
least seek to establish an open line of communication so that we can
discuss our differing views constructively and arrive at a better
understanding (as well as being better understood).

We all want to see microtonality as something other than a niche
market, and the more cooperation that can be achieved in seeking that
end, the better the likelihood of that occurring.

Life has its lessons, and the worst mistake we can make is to fail to
learn the lessons that come as a result of our mistakes.

--George