intuition

>
> so why derive your compositional materials from something you can't
> even hear? you'd be better off just going by pure creative instinct,
> or transcribing speech, or whatever . . .

I don't know about this philosophy.

Intuition has a dark, or at least lame, side as well. . . boring habit.
"Trusting one's musical sense" can mean sitting down at the ________
(whatever apparatus you compose on) and just pumping out the same old
tired cliches that one (or worse yet, someone else) has been pumping out
for years.

Sometimes confronting one's-self with new materials, that one doesn't
immediately comprehend or have the ability to "hear," and just sitting
down, trying to make the best of it, and writing some music can jump-start
one's creative self.

I think that my pieces written when I was in this state are much better
than the pieces I wrote when I felt "in command" of the
material---aurally and conceptually.

This doesn't work for everyone, I'm sure, and of course, intuition is
entering into the process at some level regardless. Obviously, a
purely intuitive method worked for Feldman wonderfully (though I sometimes wonder whether his
claims of intuition were exaggerated and there isn't some sneaky
systematization hidden at work there. . . .), and I'm happy if it works
for Kraig Grady and Paul as well. . . . . .

But if any composers are uneasy (or just plain bored) with "pure
intuitive" composition (not that there really
is such a thing anyway) . . . . you're not alone.

--- In tuning@y..., Christopher Bailey <cb202@c...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38208.html#38208

> >
> > so why derive your compositional materials from something you
can't
> > even hear? you'd be better off just going by pure creative
instinct,
> > or transcribing speech, or whatever . . .
>
>
>
> I don't know about this philosophy.
>
> Intuition has a dark, or at least lame, side as well. . . boring
habit.
> "Trusting one's musical sense" can mean sitting down at the ________
> (whatever apparatus you compose on) and just pumping out the same
old
> tired cliches that one (or worse yet, someone else) has been
pumping out
> for years.
>
> Sometimes confronting one's-self with new materials, that one
doesn't
> immediately comprehend or have the ability to "hear," and just
sitting
> down, trying to make the best of it, and writing some music can
jump-start
> one's creative self.
>
> I think that my pieces written when I was in this state are much
better
> than the pieces I wrote when I felt "in command" of the
> material---aurally and conceptually.
>
>
> This doesn't work for everyone, I'm sure, and of course, intuition
is
> entering into the process at some level regardless. Obviously,
a
> purely intuitive method worked for Feldman wonderfully (though I
sometimes wonder whether his
> claims of intuition were exaggerated and there isn't some sneaky
> systematization hidden at work there. . . .), and I'm happy if it
works
> for Kraig Grady and Paul as well. . . . . .
>
> But if any composers are uneasy (or just plain bored) with "pure
> intuitive" composition (not that there really
> is such a thing anyway) . . . . you're not alone.

***Hi Chris...

Remember the famous quote about John Cage where he said he liked to
think that he knew absolutely *nothing* about what he was doing??

Of course, he was somewhat of an *extreme* case... but still.

J. Pehrson

Hello Christopher!
I agree with much of your comments but can't resist adding some other insights

Christopher Bailey wrote:

>
>
> Intuition has a dark, or at least lame, side as well. . . boring habit.

I find that being bored with one habits forces one to constantly seek ways to break out of them
:-) your suggestion of dropping new materials upon one self is would fit right in with this

>
> Obviously, a
> purely intuitive method worked for Feldman wonderfully (though I sometimes wonder whether his
> claims of intuition were exaggerated and there isn't some sneaky
> systematization hidden at work there. . . .), and I'm happy if it works
> for Kraig Grady and Paul as well. . . . . .

It seems that form historically developed out of intuitions of larger organic shapes inspired by
those inherited. Few remained stable for long and when they did it seemed more of others catching
up to a big innovation (as in a beethoven) or in seeing implications not exploited.
Feldman music on examination shows much structure of which Chiasmus might be the most common.
Sometime it appears on the page of the score as if drawn as a picture. What interest myself about
an intuitive approach is something you might have some thoughts on . As someone who has always
thought of thematic transformation and manipulation as a conscious act, is it possible to really
think or hear something unrelated to what went before? It seems it would be not, yet the material
might show no relation as ar as what we are used to and might be related on levels (psychological)
that has a type of logic that resist analysis- so far!
(am i going to bring that word up again?;-).

> But if any composers are uneasy (or just plain bored) with "pure
> intuitive" composition (not that there really
> is such a thing anyway) . . . . you're not alone.

likewise with those myriad of pieces that sound "composed' and planned

-- Kraig Grady
North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
http://www.anaphoria.com

The Wandering Medicine Show
Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

--- In tuning@y..., Kraig Grady <kraiggrady@a...> wrote:

/tuning/topicId_38208.html#38211

> Hello Christopher!
> I agree with much of your comments but can't resist adding some
other insights
>
> Christopher Bailey wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Intuition has a dark, or at least lame, side as well. . . boring
habit.
>
> I find that being bored with one habits forces one to constantly
seek ways to break out of them
> :-) your suggestion of dropping new materials upon one self is
would fit right in with this
>
> >
> > Obviously, a
> > purely intuitive method worked for Feldman wonderfully (though I
sometimes wonder whether his
> > claims of intuition were exaggerated and there isn't some sneaky
> > systematization hidden at work there. . . .), and I'm happy if
it works
> > for Kraig Grady and Paul as well. . . . . .
>
> It seems that form historically developed out of intuitions of
larger organic shapes inspired by
> those inherited. Few remained stable for long and when they did it
seemed more of others catching
> up to a big innovation (as in a beethoven) or in seeing
implications not exploited.
> Feldman music on examination shows much structure of which Chiasmus
might be the most common.
> Sometime it appears on the page of the score as if drawn as a
picture. What interest myself about
> an intuitive approach is something you might have some thoughts
on . As someone who has always
> thought of thematic transformation and manipulation as a conscious
act, is it possible to really
> think or hear something unrelated to what went before? It seems it
would be not, yet the material
> might show no relation as ar as what we are used to and might be
related on levels (psychological)
> that has a type of logic that resist analysis- so far!
> (am i going to bring that word up again?;-).
>
> > But if any composers are uneasy (or just plain bored) with "pure
> > intuitive" composition (not that there really
> > is such a thing anyway) . . . . you're not alone.
>
> likewise with those myriad of pieces that sound "composed' and
planned
>
> -- Kraig Grady
> North American Embassy of Anaphoria island
> http://www.anaphoria.com
>
> The Wandering Medicine Show
> Wed. 8-9 KXLU 88.9 fm

***Well, this discussion should probably be on MakeMicroMusic or some
such, but since the thread has started here, might as well continue
or finish it..

Personally, many, many of my pieces have been mostly *intuitive...*
However, I was finding when I was working with the Blackjack lattice
that I was planning things out more than with most.

HOWEVER, I would try different combinations of things that were
working with the lattices and then I would *choose* the continuing
result based upon what...?? Again, sound and *intuition*... so ever
though there was patterning, the final choice was probably just
as "intuitive" as in any of my music.

Oh.. a further comment. It's funny how broad a range of composers
claim to work by the "intuitive..."

It not only includes Feldman, but I believe Elliott Carter claims to
work along those same lines... !

J. Pehrson

In a message dated 6/26/02 10:50:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jpehrson@rcn.com writes:

> ***Well, this discussion should probably be on MakeMicroMusic or some
> such, but since the thread has started here, might as well continue
> or finish it..
>

If you move it then I won't be able to read it. I see no reason to move a
discussion of intuition and music. It may be uncomfortable for some,
however.

> Personally, many, many of my pieces have been mostly *intuitive...*
> However, I was finding when I was working with the Blackjack lattice
> that I was planning things out more than with most.
>

This sounds quite healthy to me.

> HOWEVER, I would try different combinations of things that were
> working with the lattices and then I would *choose* the continuing
> result based upon what...?? Again, sound and *intuition*... so ever
> though there was patterning, the final choice was probably just
> as "intuitive" as in any of my music.
>

Sounds good to me. Did y'all know Brahms was against intuition in
composition? Jan Swafford goes on and on about how Brahms practically
attacked his students if they used intuition to compose.

> Oh.. a further comment. It's funny how broad a range of composers
> claim to work by the "intuitive..."
>

When you say "work by the 'intuitive,'" I think of intuitive in 2 different
ways:
(1) there is trusting one's intuition as Joseph seems to be doing. People
trust this at different percentages. I often discuss it with people. Just
did recently independently of this thread. Men usually don't trust it as
high as I do, at 100% This is for every day life and this intuition has its
own logic.

But (2) there is compositional intuition, which is a bit different. Though
Xenakis usually didn't use it much in his compositions, there is his solo
viola piece "Enbellie" which is entirely, and stated as such, intuitively
composed. When I compose I choose a non-intutitve compositional state first,
often completely worked out before anything more than some sketches have been
written down. And then the intuition is given free reign. My horn solo
Ultra, my guitar solo Possessed, Neo...in fact all my pieces have
improvisation in them. Isn't that intuition of a higher percent?

best, Johnny Reinhard

> It not only includes Feldman, but I believe Elliott Carter claims to
> work along those same lines... !
>
> J. Pehrson
>
>